The Thursday 22 Iyar 5773 issue of Yated Neeman speaks out loud and clear against a new kollel that plans to include high tech studies in its limudim. Referring to the concept as “פרצה חמורה” (serious breach) the newspaper quotes Maranan V’Rabbanan Shlita, headed by HaGaon HaRav Aaron Yehuda Leib Shteinman Shlita as opposing the idea conceptually, explaining that a program incorporating limud Torah with academic studies and work may not use the title “kollel”.
Yated refers to attempts by the government and others in recent years to “entice” avreichim to leave the “daled amos of Halacha” to enter the working world but of late, there is an unprecedented move representing a “heightening gall” to set up kollelim in Bnei Brak and elsewhere which incorporates academic studies and work. Yated attacks the “so-called yeshivos ketanos” that include academic studies, adding they are going against the world of Gedolei Yisrael Shlita. The report adds HaGaon HaRav Elyashiv ZT”L was also strongly opposed and such efforts today, which appear on the rise, are not in line with the hashkafa of the gedolim and should not call themselves “kollel”.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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25 Responses
Since “high tech” and “learning Torah” are unrelated subjects, and few people are experts at both – it makes sense that we continue to have separate institutions (or procedures) – WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE. If someone in Kollel wants to learn a profession, there are many ways to do so (classes, tutors, apprenticeships, self study, etc.). But they have always done so independent of the yeshiva/kollel.
If we try to turn Torah institutions into schools for secular subjects, we run the risk of them losing their Torah characteristics. THis is what happened to many of the goyim’s colleges that were devoted to theological studies and were corrupted when they expanded to cover “scientific” studies (such as Harvard, Oxford, etc.).
An added advantage is keeping the secular subjects as extracurricular, is students, at any level, and pursue the secular interests they prefer, whether it be high tech, or becoming a machinist/craftsman, or health care, or whatever.
Who is the “Yated”? Who cares what that worthless rag has to say? This is “news”?
This mindless opposition to ANY effort to create a balanced approach to learning and parnassah is going to hurt the Chareidim in the long-term. By insisting that their kollel yungerleit remain totally uneducated in secular subject so they are functionally illiterate and unable to qualify for most jobs in a modern economy, they are undermining the fabric of their own society and creating a permanent class of those who will have to live on government welfare and tzadakah from others.
So then they should call themselves Yeshivos and go right along with their plans. I’ll daven for their success.
Glad to see we finally take our cues from the media
I understand the Bnei Torah are against serving in the army but what is wrong with working? True Toraso Umnaso is a noble way of life but that doesn’t make working chazir treif. Since the inception of the State of Israel the Chareidi society always avoided working because working would force them to serve in the army. Now 3 generations later the mindset is that working is as treif as serving army??!! Corrupt thinking or what??!!
Please Americans, don’t judge this through American eyes. In Israel the battles and realities are totally different.Yes, the level of emphasis is based on the nature of the alien inviroment.
In resonse to the ‘opposite of daas toroh’ quoted by ‘Gadolhadorah’ (he is far from a godol he is the direct opposit no connection to torah whatsoever) Learning torah brings a person to the highest madraigo, only torah that is pure, any diversion from this path is the opposite of learning. Gedolie Yisroel of past generations and the ones with us today know what is best, only pure torah guards & protects klal yisroel, we need rachmai shomyim from the reshoim from both within and oustside klal yisroel, it is a zecus to have and support true mekomei hatorah
It’s NO HIDDUSH what he is saying. The gedolim have been saying the same things for three centuries (before that “scientific subjects” were never rarely in academic institutions).
He didn’t say the frum Jews should not learn secular subjects. Even in the most frum parts of the anti-zionist Hareidi world you encounter plenty of people with all sorts of skills and trades that among the goyim (or frei Jews) require going to a school. Indeed, a yeshiva background is excellent preparation for learning a subject, especially by means others than sitting in a classroom and regurgitating what the professors profess. In the broader world, “education” is increasing being liberated from “schooling.” No big deal.
All he said was don’t turn the yeshivos into colleges. Let them stay focused on Torah. No Hiddish. Really shouldn’t be considered controverial.
koton-hador did you just call rav shteinman and rav elyashiv mindless
#2 how do you know its a worthless rag if you admit not knowing who they are- maybe you are the worthless rag
#9- So why are so many ‘unschooled but educated’ charedi schnorrers from EY begging me for money every day with the explanation that they can’t make a living because they don’t have the skills that employers require?
Yes, some talented individuals can make a good (and honest) living without schooling. Many people can’t.
This was called “Newspeak” by Geoge orwell, in his propetic book “1984.”
Newspeak is the art of twisting familiar words to mean the opposite of their real menaing. This sows confusion in the minds of the masses, and makes it easier to manipulate public opinion.
It was a favorite trick of Stalin and Hitler.
If the issue is only whether to have separate entities for kollels and teaching secular subjects, thats not a big deal….if the issue is to assur ANY secular learning that might allow kollel yungerleit to also earn a parnassah then I think that is a mindless position. As several others have posted, that is not a concept that existed in our history where many of our greatest rabbonim have also been scholars in secular studies. Even today we have gadolim like Rav Tendler,shlita, the son-in-law of Rav Moshe, Z’tl, who is among the top scientists in his field.
as opposing the idea conceptually——“In concept” – call it Beis Medresh Yomi…
There are many talmidim that would find satisfaction in a combination program of learning and pursuing a techo career. It is happening and will happen, in this case the talmid is given financial grants while learning and learning. (reason its called Kollel)
#12 – Perhaps because they haven’t been motivated to concentrate on parnassah, and realize they can do better by schnorring. That way you can share in the mitzvas they are schnorring for. It’s a ancient custom. The real culprit is that the standard of living in America and Israel is radically higher than in the recent past (everyone has plenty of clothes, more than enough to eat, every family has its own housing unit – not to mention things such as indoor plumbing, refrigerators, antibiotics, etc.), that many frum Jews realize they can live off of charity and be free to learn all day, and have a lifestyle better than their hard working grandparents (the economic theory is called the “backwards bending supply curb of labor, if you want to look it up)
To “LBJ”:
Yes, I know who “they” are. Why do you think the Rabbonim started the Hapeles newspaper? Don’t get me started!
Sounds like the rabbonim mentioned weren’t against the idea, just against calling it a kollel. So do it up big time and call it something else and maybe one day the charedi community will actually be able to lift itself out of the poverty that its been in for generations.
‘The gedolim have been saying the same things for three centuries (before that “scientific subjects” were never rarely in academic institutions).’
Not all gedolim. (Do I have to repeat the list of university-educated gedolim I have posted here in the past?) And scientific subjects were ALWAYS in secular academic institutions going back to the middle ages.
Again and again the shoe maker tells the president how to run presidential matters, such issues are to be decided by gedolei hatorah not by every tom dick and harry, the highest ranking officer in the army and in the government are considered back seat drivers woh cause major accident compared to gedolei hatorah
I live in Lakewood ad hear every day from young people that are desperately looking for jobs after sitting in kollel for 7 or 8 years and can’t find anything because they don’t have any parnassah skills ,this kollel lifestyle is a disaster for most of us.
Apookerma: backward bending supply of the labour is because of the satisficing of lobour pool under condition of ultra high wages for which less hours are worked while in case of schnorrer labour effort is traveling to US and going door to door. Resultant hourly wage is not high but perceived labour effort is minor. This is phenomenon of irrational behavior which is already presumed.
#19-Charlie Hall — but they never learned the scientific subjects in a yeshiva — we made a point to keep the yeshiva focused on Torah, and given how “religious” places such as Columbia and Harvard and Yale are today, it appears this was a correct decision. What good would it be if Mir was a famous engineering school if it was no longer teaching Torah.
#21- if someone wants a job, they should pick a career, learn how to do the job, and get a job — do they expect parnassah to materialize out of thin air? Did they mistake “Harry Potter” for a documentary and believe that some “magic” will save them? Do they expect everything in their life to be handed to them on a silver platter (oops, many younger kids do feel so entitled – they will outgrow it).
am i missing something?? why is getting an education a dirty word?
if a person is working and being kove itim thats idea jewish life…. should he not get an education and shnuor?
A dual program should be an option for some yeshivas, but it shouldn’t be forced on kollels that wish to remain . . . . well, kollels. Most don’t even have the funds to pay secular teachers anyway. That’s what community colleges are for. Definitely job training should be available — and not banned — for those who need it.
However. A problem for many of the kollel guys is not just the financial pressure to leave kollel and find work. By the time they leave they have kids and the usual family obligations which can divert time and attention from vocational training. In this day and age, with respectable, higher-paying jobs requiring more sophisticated skills or education (unless one is either great in business or lucky to have a family business to go into) it is difficult for anyone devote the focus needed while managing or supporting a home. Ask anyone who had to go back to school while working, let alone married with kids. It can be done, but it is exhausting. (Not to mention the student loans accrued. Try paying those off, along with rent or mortgage.)
One solution might be apprenticeship programs, where people can learn on the job, while at least bringing in income. Or maybe there is a general chessed fund that might subsidize secular study (my union has this). Reality stinks, but practical concerns must be acknowledged.