MK (Yahadut Hatorah) Menachem Litzman Wednesday morning, 14 Iyar 5773, gave a telephone interview to Kol Berama Radio, speaking with host Mordechai Lavi. Litzman, a veteran MK addressed the new administration’s unrelenting effort to compel chareidi schools to include ‘core subjects’ in the curriculum, such as math, computers and English.
Lavi, playing devil’s advocate, questioned why learning English and obtaining basic skills in computers and mathematics is so objectionable to chareidim, for “it is not avoda zara”.
Litzman explained by highlighting the fact that one must understand “this is a gezeiras shmad”. Litzman stated that for him, there is no doubt that this is not about teaching chareidi children subjects towards widening their knowledge base, but it is a concerted effort by haters of a chareidi lifestyle to compel a change, to distance the next generation from the lifestyle of the elders.
Litzman pointed out that today, 30-40% of elementary school children nationwide are chareidi, “and we are far from 40% of the population, so they get it. They are afraid of the demographic realities and this compels their actions.” Litzman explains he does not believe for a moment that Education Minister (Yesh Atid) Rabbi Shai Piron and Finance Minister (Yesh Atid) Yair Lapid are genuine, and he is absolutely certain their motives are to uproot the Torah lifestyle of the chareidi tzibur at large, a lifestyle they find objectionable and unacceptable.
Nevertheless, Lavi persisted, asking what it is so troubling for the chareidi student to acquire these skills and this knowledge, which ultimately will permit an easier transition into the workforce, facilitating one’s efforts towards earning a livelihood in the future.
Litzman made a number of points which in his viewpoint are at the heart of the dispute. For one thing, he asked rhetorically how can one rely on one rav for matters pertaining to Halacha, shabbos and kashrus for example, but the very same person is now expected to turn his back on this rav and accept an education that is contrary to the rav’s point of view. He explains “it is not about science, math, computers or English, but it is about Yair Lapid understanding it is the rabbonim, the Gedolei Yisrael Shlita, who will dictate what the children learn, not Lapid, Piron or any other government.”
Litzman added in a time of shmad “we cannot accept any of their gezeiros”, further highlighting that today, the chareidim may not accept any ruling from elected officials pertaining to the education system no matter how benign it may appear.
Litzman feels that the threats of removing 50% of the state aid for schools that do not agree to introduce core subjects is just an excuse, pointing out the Finance Ministry already announced plans for major cuts to yeshivos and this is just a means to justify those cuts, nothing more.
Litzman categorically rejects any attempt to portray Lapid and his party in a legitimate light, absolutely convinced that Lapid is following in the footsteps of his late father and the education he was given, working to uproot Torah and the chareidi way of life.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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14 Responses
IF the secular government was acting in good faith, which they probably aren’t, they would observe would hareidim do (and have done) when they need to learn secular subjects. It is not by integrating them into school curricula to replace Torah subjects. Typically it involves some form focused self-study outside a traditional school. This suggests the need to developm various forms of “distance education” for Bnei Torah wanting to learn secular subjects. While the Israelis could help (they have an excellent “open university” system), it would be best if the frum community develop this themselves since for many subjects (language skills, history and some of the social sciences) there is a definite need to develop “frum” courses.
So the Rema and the Vilna Gaon could learn math, but today’s Jews can’t?
Rema and Vilna goan never learned in school, הפוך בה והפוך בה דכולא בה!!
learning english and math are important.
I dont know why you cant learn gemora and math.
is it an aveira to be educated?
#2 – So the Rema and the Vilna Gaon could learn math, but today’s Jews can’t?
You are confusing the difference between being educated and being schooled.
Throughout history the gedolim have included mathematicians and scientists, polyglots (that means, able to communicate in many languages), and have display good knowledge of the social sciences. There are many frum Jews today, products of the most “right wing” yeshivos with good skills in these areas. HOWEVER THEY DON’T STUDY THEM IN YESHIVA OR SCHOOL.
Yeshiva is for learning Torah. Turning them into schools to teach other subjects will undermine them. Observe how the Americans used to have fine school for studying humanities and theology (such as Harvard, Yale, etc.), but when in the 19th century they turned them to teach other (scientific) subjects, they ending up giving up the humanistic and theological curriculum for which they had been established. Our gedolim, at the time, wisely saw that a yeshiva that starts to teach math and science (etc.), will end up getting out of the Torah business.
BATTLEGEAR in on,,,,start removing the attire slowly and let’s both come up for air.
My sons in Cheder in Har Nof both learned Math and English years ago, so dont get the problem now. There were even special classes for Anglo speakers. Computers were not so popular at that time.
#3 OK so homeschool,,,u never need funding then!!!
May I humbly remind my good friends in the Modern Orthodox community—with all due respect—that the Talmud instructs us that, in a time of SHMAD, we are forbidden to do anything that the hostile authorities demand—even if they simply tell us change the color of our shoelaces.
The explanation for this puzzling Talmudic passage is that we recognize the concept of establishing a damaging precedent as “slicing the salami.”
If we yield on any small point at all, we have just agreed that the hostile authorities have the right to intervene—the precedent is established.
From that point onward, they can then simply add more and more requirements, until the whole Hareidi education system has been transformed to the point where it is no longer distinguishable from the secular system—drugs, violence, immorality, and all the rest!
The real solution, both in America and Israel, is that the frum community should set up institutions for teaching secular subjects in a frum context. They will probably resemble the many organization that support home schooling (e.g. Calvert School in Baltimore, Keystone, University of Nebraska high school extension) or continuing and distance education on an adult level (e.g. Empire State College, University College in Maryland, Open University in the UK and Israel). And then ask the Israeli government to help fund them….
Of course, the real issue is that they want secular studies that are INSTEAD of learning Torah, not in addition to it. In their press they aren’t talking about math and English as problems, but civics. They are upset that hareidi kids aren’t growing up to love the medinah and don’t want to join its army – and they want the schools to teach proper love of the government.
Basicly Litzman is unable to offer a coherent answer to a simple question. The fact that Chareidim make up 40% of school aged children is not proof that Piron and Lapid want to tear them away from their heritage but rather that they realize that this new generation will need basic skills to survive.
Litzman keeps on harping on this being a time of Shmad. Does he agree that core subjects should be intoduced at a later time after the gezeras shmad has hopefully passed, and if so why did he never promote the teaching of these subjects before the current government forced it dow n his throat?
His only answer is that we must follow our Gedolim which is a legitimate answer but unfortunatley he has failed to explain the reason and logic behind this Rabbinic opposition.
There are many frum Jews today, products of the most “right wing” yeshivos with good skills in these areas. HOWEVER THEY DON’T STUDY THEM IN YESHIVA OR SCHOOL.
AND there are many frum Jews today, products of the most “right wing” yeshivos with good skills in these areas WHO HAVE & DO STUDY THEM IN YESHIVA OR SCHOOL.
We Jews are a strange people.
On one hand you have a government whose legitimacy rest on Jewish tradition; yet, it rejects the legitimacy of that tradition.
On the other hand you have a government that rejects the right of that group to govern them, but complains when that government refuses to fund them!
What a people!
Why doesn’t he just give us the government funding and educate as he or his rabbis see fit?
We charedim live in a box. We are so afraid of the world we just make our box tighter and harder to live in. Anyone who thinks outside the box is going against the gedolim and anyone who stays in the box is gozer on himself a life of poverty. Nice choices. No wonder so many charedi youth are leaving the box.
Both English & Maths are important, however, many non-religious Israeli’s can’t speak
English (even those that work in international companies like El Al !), yet those Israeli’s did receive funding for their education. Taking money away from Hareidi schools for this reason is nothing more than a poor excuse.
Maths up to grade 7 is important. Beyond that it is not necessary, unless you want to be an engineer, scientist or high school maths teacher. All Hareidi schools teach maths until grade 8. I am an accountant & don’t use any maths beyond grade 7. Again, a poor excuse to take away funding.