MK (Yahadut Hatorah) Meir Porush in an address before representatives of the Presidents Conference of Major Jewish Organizations in Yerushalayim spoke about the share the burden issue.
He told the officials “One who does not sit and learn must enter the IDF.” He added with a smile on his face “When I stopped learning, I notified authorities and was summoned to an induction center.”
“While I did not cross the canal I did serve as what is called Stage 2 (שלב ב) service for four months, as well as doing reserve duty service.”
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
11 Responses
That’s fine for pro-zionists, but perhaps 10% of the Hareidi population are anti-zionists (e.g. Satmar) who hold that the medinah is “glatt treff” and serving in the army would make them the “rodef”. Until now, instead of going to the government and saying “I am a traitor, you are usurpers” they were able to say “I’m too busy learning”. Given that the government doesn’t require “learning” to mean anything on the lines of the 60+ hours a week of someone truely learning full time – this hasn’t been a problem. To avoid conflict, Israel needs to recognize the international principle of exempting persons from military service on grounds of religious or moral objections (with no penal sanctions).
“MK (UTJ) Meir Porush in an address before representatives of the Presidents Conference of Major Jewish Organizations in Yerushalayim”
This has been the Daas Torah for years EXCEPT it has never been implemented. Interestingly enough, Porush made this speech to the Presidents’ Conference (Americans) and not to the ISRAELI CHAREDI KEHILLA…… sort of like of when Abbas talks peace to America & Israel and a different language to his people in Gaza and Ramallah.
In the US at least, conscientious objector status is only granted for those who oppose war, and not those who oppose the government. What your describing isn’t just not an international principle, but I believe is not true anywhere.
1. It’s not even fine for pro-zionists because what about women who don’t learn? They will also be drafted!
#1 – Weren’t you promising just yesterday that the Satmars would move to Gaza to avoid the terrible gziera and embarrass the evil Zionists before the court of international opinion? Problem solved then.
Of course, if you’re being an Indian giver and retracting you might want to consider that there is another, more apt, universal principal that looks very dimly indeed upon treason (hey, you said it). And before you start hugging yourself with glee at the glorious prospect of mass imprisonment, you might also want to consider that a society is free to choose many other sanctions, which you might be less thrilled with, and which offer no oportunity for ‘martyrdom’.
The best way for the anti-Zionist minority to deal with this is to sit quietly, like a mouse. Israelis have little interest in you and will probably look the other way, unless you raise a ruckus.
#3 – The United States has not had conscription for over a generation. The rules as followed during the Vietnam War would probably be in violation of international human rights standards. While the United States does not recognize international human rights laws as anything more than, at most, interesting dicta – most other countries including Israel do. Israeli allows women to object to military service on religious conscientious grounds, so it won’t be a leap to extend that to men.
However any good left wing Israeli knows all about international human rights laws, and will be wary of throwing people on jail for a religious-based refusal to do military service. They may not understand the extent that pro-Israel goyim tend to see Israel as a religious state, and that throwing the most obvious exemplars of traditional Judaism will cause a backlash. Israel’s non-Jewish supporters have played a critical role in blocking attempts to have Israel sanctioned similar to how South Africa was sanactioned for apartheid (and in all fairness, if you disregard the religious and biblical aspects to a Jewish claim to Eretz Yisrael, would a secular zionist not be in no better a position to claim Israel than the Afrikaaners were to claim South Africa). It’s very hard to justify the zionist claims if you simulatenously reject the validity of Torah – which is a factor why public persecution of hareidim is a bad idea for the zionists.
If daas torah of Rav Shach would have been followed, (Report to induction center when you leave yeshiva) then the frum kehilla would not be going through tzarus and agmas nefesh today.
The United States does have a selective service system and the same rules about objector status apply to individuals taking the citizenship oath, which includes a promise to take arms for the United States. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your contention about international human rights norms? Has any country with the exception of Israel, ever exempted individuals from a draft and national service merely for opposing the government? I’m not asking this rhetorically, but if you’re insisting that this is some sort of norm, an example would be nice. Beyond that, I know of no “international human rights standards” (whatever that may even mean) regarding adult conscription, and it’s almost impossible to believe that there could be any.
#7
That was for individuals.
Rav Shach was the first to declare that if they try to impose the Draft by fiat, bnei torah should leave the country.
(Rabin stated as long as Rav Shach was alive, he could not impose a draft in deference for Rav Shach.)
#8: Natural born citizens of the US take no such oath and may conscientiously object to serving in the armed forces.
$8 – The United States selective service system is a joke. Most other countries (France, Germany, Britain, Canada, Australia, Japan, China) have abolished conscription so the issue doesn’t arise.
If you follow the logic of the Satmarer’s argument, unless the “medinah” was established al pi Torah (clearly wasn’t unless you hold Ben Gurious or Netanyahu are Navi’im, or that the Knesset is a valid Sanhedrin), the Israelis are just thieves, and while we hold “ganef min ha-ganef patur”, that doesn’t mean you are allowed to be a ganef, or to kill people defending against your geneivah.
Since World War II a wide variety of human rights treaties create a human right of refusing to join the military. While the Arabs constantly complain, having frum Jews complain would seriously hurt Israel’s position and make it harder to fend off those who want sanctions against Israel.
As I’ve said, I believe calmer heads will prevail and there will be no attempt to punish draft refusers other than loss of yeshiva subsidies for the individual. However if they attempt to draft hareidim and imprison those who don’t go to the army, Neturei Karta will go from a mini-footnote to major chapter in Israeli politics – and by doing so, may cause it to be the last chapter.