Those seeking to compel chareidim to serve in the military can register a partial victory for a number of months ago; when the subject was broached the response was an unequivocal “no”. Today however, a growing number of chareidi leaders and politicians seem to have accepted today’s new post-Tal Law era reality that will compel some chareidim to serve in the IDF. Shas co-leader Aryeh Deri is one of those chareidi politicians, telling reporters on Monday 11 Teves 5773 that those talmidim who are not learning should be taken into the IDF.
Deri does stipulate that the onus of providing a suitable environment for chareidim is on the IDF and chareidim cannot be expected to serve if they are unable to continue living a chareidi lifestyle.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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10 Responses
Aha, and Shas threw out Amsellam for essentially saying the same thing! Interesting.
There are two distinct issues. One is whether yeshiva students should be required to take a “break” from learning for three years in order to be soldiers, as well as to serve in the reserves thereafter. Unless you hold that fighting the Arabs is pikuach nefesh (some frum Jews do), the halacha a policy require support for professional Bnei Torah staying and learning.
The second issue is whether Hareidi baal ha-battim should serve in the army at all. On the second issue, unless you hold (similar to groups such as Satmar) that the medinah is treff and the zionists are the aggressors in the Arab-Israeli War, the only real issue is the willingness of the army to accomodate hareidi soldiers.
Past experiences, in Eretz Yisrael and elsewhere, is that after several years service in an ultra-secular army in which Shmiras Mitsvos is at best tolerated, being enveloped into a totally secular, anti-Torah atmosphere, will result in a considerable percentage of recruits becoming radically less observant (and interestingly enough. the mesiras nefesh needed to be frum in the army is so great, that those who do survive intact leave much more fanatic than before they were conscripted).
The zionists have always seen the army has a tool to build a secular modern nation, i.e., to break down “old fashioned” religion. For the most part they have been successful (just compare the “before” and “after” among many non-Ashkenazim who went into the army as Jews and came out as secular zionists).
What are “talmidim who are not learning”?
If they are not learning then they are not talmidim!
Wow! A chareidi politician concedes that they should go into the IDF! Too bad it happens to be a politician that is a convicted felon that did jail time (only in Israel…)
To Idachgissa (No. 3).
If you have spent any time around a yeshiva or kollel you should know that there are a significant percentage of the yungerleit who really are there for various reasons but are not real “learners”. Some feel the pressure from their families or wives to be in kollel, some have no skills or secular education and have no clue what they would do in the real world to earn a parnassah and some simply are not competent to learn. They are “talmidim” in name only and are wasting time and resources by sitting in kollel rather than going into the IDF or getting a job and contributing to their families and society
Yanky555,
Didnt know the bet mishpat’s verdict was torah misinai for you, doesnt say much about you.
A “talmid” not learning at kollel is a burden to his frum community and to yisrael at large,i believe all agree to this view, he needs to do something of his life such as find parnassah or serve in some type of national service that can accomodate him.
Stop trashing for no reason and grow up.
Gb
#2 Most of your comment on the IDF today is outdated and inaccurate. There are large brigades of Shomer Shabbos soldiers who enter and leave the army intact.
“Rav Aharon Lichtenstein related that once when he returned to America and was visiting with his father-in-law, Rav Soloveitchik, A”H. He posed a series of questions from students who were serving in the IDF.
One (hesder) student worked in the tanks division and his job was cleaning out and maintaining the tanks. Often his uniform got covered in oil and grime and he wanted to know if he needed to change clothing before davening minchah, something that would be quite inconvenient and difficult but possible.
The Rav looked at Rav Lichtenstein and wondered out loud,
“Why would he need to change? He is wearing bigdei kodesh.”
Why does #2 insist on calling secular Israelis, “Zionists”? Why not just call them, “secular Israelis”? Very few people other then pashkivilim writers use the term “Zionists” anymore.
To “Gadolhadorah” –
I’ve spent many years IN yeshivos and kollelim – not just “around” them. I am aware that some of the talmidim are not the biggest masmidim, but apparently the roshei kollel feel that whatever learning they do justifies paying them hard to get money, so who are you to disagree? Also, if their families are pressuring them to continue, then apparently they don’t feel they are not being contributed to. And not all jobs contribute to society – we could well do without some of them. And when these yungerleit leave kollel they seem to have no trouble finding what to do.
The question I was bringing up is who is Dehri talking about here? The article is ambiguous. And if it means anyone who is not a masmid, as you seem to understand, then where do we draw the line, and who decides?