Military police earlier in the week arrived at the homes of three talmidei yeshiva during the predawn hours to arrest them for not reporting to the military draft. Residents of Har Nof and Beis Yisrael, both neighborhoods in Yerushalayim were arrested. Two are talmidim in Mir and the third attends a yeshiva in Beis Yisrael, Kikar Shabbos reports.
According to published reports, the three were unaware they were supposed to submit forms and they were not intentionally ignoring the law. Nevertheless, they were taken into custody, where they remain at this time.
Efforts are underway to have them released from jail but it is unlikely these efforts will succeed since without the protection of the Tal Law, the talmidim as simply listed as AWOL like all other draft eligible males in Israel and they may be compelled to serve or remain in military prison.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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17 Responses
NOW you know why Defense Minister Ehud barak is nicknamed “The Poison Dwarf.”
According to published reports, the three were unaware they were supposed to submit forms and they were not intentionally ignoring the law –
NewsPapers and posters should be posted on what is law, what are forms to submit and what are residents’ responsibilities?
Is anyone familiar with the HALACHAH of dina dimalchusa dina??? Can someone please explain why it does not seem to apply to the state of Israel?
Reply to No. 2.
All this information regarding the draft regisration requirements is readily available on the IDF and defense ministry websites and the issue has been the top news story daily for the past 6 weeks on all the TV news programs, and newspapers (both frum and secular). There is no way to not have known about the rules unless you literally lived in a cave without coming out for air.
Should the dodo be declared the national bird for Israel (at least they were probably kosher).
Is it know if there were arrest warrants specifically for these boys or are they now just grabbing people off the street?
AWOL = Avreichim With Out Learning
Are these 3 living in a cave or are they about to arrest 100s more?
Re: Yowza:
Please learn shin samach tes in choshen mishpat before commenting further. At the very least, wikipedia has an entry for דינא דמלכותא דינא, and you can read there why it does not apply in this case, at least according to most poskim.
#3- Dina Malchusa Dina doesn’t apply to a king that is persecuting Jews. Assuming you hold Israel is a non-Jewish state (if you hold it is a Jewish state, the doctrine wouldn’t apply at all), the fact that undermining Torah is a major goal of Israeli conscription (“building a modern society”), and that the army doesn’t accomodate frumkeit (note how they used female singers to weed out super-patriotic frummies who wanted to be officers), and that the law is discriminatory (secular Jews are allowed to serve in an army that caters to their lifestyle). There is also the matter of pikuach nefesh since soldiers often get killed (fighting over what is basically a real estate dispute – there’s no heter to fight a war over dinei mamonos), and yeshiva students are critical in enabling the yishuv to survive.
#3
You are correct that dina d’malchusa dina applies to every country except Eretz Yisrael.
The reason is because we must obey the laws of a country out of a sense of gratitude for the fact that they allow us Yidden to live in their country.
The exception is Eretz Yisrael. We do not owe the government of Eretz Yisrael a debt of gratitude for allowing us to live there. Hakadosh Baruch Hu Himself gave us that land. It’s ours – and although there are certainly laws there that we must obey (e.g., traffic laws, municipal taxes that pay the garbage collectors, and so on) we do not have a halachah of dina d’malchusa dina there.
To #3
The Chazon Ish ZT”L Told My uncle,[common knowledge as well] That No Dina D’malchusa D’ina applies to Laws emanating from the Israeli Government.
It is also well known how the Chazon Ish ZT”L depicted the Israeli Government as ” Children Playing House… You be the Tatty, You be the Mommy…”
Regardless Mr. YOWZEH, You need to be Blind not to see what this is all about. That’s right, Politicians Going to the well again With a populace message.
Sort of when Politicians here DEMAND to higher the Minimum Wage.
It is a Crock.
Don’t fall for it.
The Last thing the Army needs now, is to induct all the Chareidim.
Answer to no 3:
Dina de malchuta does not apply to the state of Israel for the very simple reason that Jews – as opposed to goyim for whom it is even a mitzvah when done appropriately, the seventh of their seven mitzvot – do not have the right to legislate non Torah-deriven laws!!
It also sounds like some over zealous Russian MP has decides to go after these boys to make point.
However… Everyone knows (even satmar) that at the age of 16.5 (used to be 16) the army sends a form and issues an appointment to start the profiling process.
At this point the charadim can file another form requesting an exemption for learning. Also the girls can request to do national service if they are religious (need to be enrolled in a religious HS).
If I had to take an educated guess it sounds like the boys ignore the multiple mailings and recruitment invites starting from 16 and now since the Tal laws has expired they will sit in Jail or be drafted for the full 3.5 years.
No. they dont know Many religious homes have neither internet radio or television. Many do not even have newspapers. In Erets Yisrael at least. Yeshivah bachurim have not been dragged off if ever, then not in a few decades.
No, people do not know that they can be arrested,as it just doesnt happen.
There are no multiple mailings, and even if there were, you would be assuming the boys read the mail or fetch it, and that their parents dont jsut ignore such mail and toss it.
People, these bachurim are not hiding from anyone. It is a precidented thing that the military police would arrest a bachur. Religious jews, ignore the government for the most part, and dont have woop de doo to say about their laws anyways. Rashi says clearly, D D M D does not apply in Israel. In any case, further, in the Gemara its mashma DDMD is only in regards to taxes, and in the very place it tells about DDMD, it tells you when to not pay taxes, thats right, when to “break” the law of the land.
Pre-dawn. No doubt in order to avoid the neighbours. They could only do this when others werent about, or the military cops would have been swamped.
PinhasErez – As I had said these orders are meant to harass the Charadi population probably carried out by some non Jewish Russian MP unit with possible direct orders from Barak, looking to make a name for himself in this coming election.
Everyone who lives here knows that at the age of 16 the army sends a form and setup up the first induction profiling date. The induction center in Jerusalem is filled with Charadim applying for exemptions.
This has been the process more or less for at least 30 years. The induction center in Jerusalem is filled with Charadim applying for exemptions even the hard cores. It doesn’t matter if one lives a life style without a radio, newspaper, TV, or internet. There are diffidently multiple mailings and it is common knowledge among everyone who lives here.
It is also a requirement in many charadi yeshivot to take care of the exemption in order to get additional government funding.
If someone chooses to ignore the mailings that is there choice but they can’t claim ignorance or they didn’t know.