The following is from WPIX 11:
Rabbis in the city’s ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities are resisting a possible change to the city and state health code, which would require parents to sign a consent form, before their infant boys undergo a controversial type of circumcision.
The ritual is known as metzizah b’peh. The New York State Health Department has renewed concerns, after another infant recently was diagnosed with herpes, shortly after undergoing a metzizah b’peh.
The Orange County baby, who is one month old, was transferred to New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center for treatment.
Last September, a two-week old Brooklyn baby died from herpes at Maimonedes Medical Center, shortly after he underwent metzizah b’peh. The family refused to tell health officials the name of the mohel who performed the ritual.
A study released in June by the federal Centers for Disease Control showed 11 baby boys contracted herpes simplex between 2000 and 2011 in New York City, where there’s been a cluster of cases. Two of the infant boys died, and two suffered brain damage. The CDC noted that circumcisions “should be performed under sterile conditions.”
Yet observant Jews in some of the city’s most ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods continue to defend metzizah b’peh.
“You can’t change the tradition we have had for thousands and thousands of years,” said Pinchas Kohn, who told PIX 11 he has 50 grandchildren. “You have to check the mohel,” he said. When PIX 11 asked if mohels should be tested for herpes, he replied, “I think so. I think so.”
The ritual is not something most in Borough Park wanted to talk about. This is the community where the two week old baby died last September.
But at least one resident was concerned enough to supply Jewish Week—and then PIX 11—with “audio” tapes of phone calls made to some mohels earlier this year.
One mohel said he tries to kill infection this way. “What I do usually is, I pour wine on it. Wine is alcoholic. I use strong wine.”
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28 Responses
MBP is an itegral part fo the MItzvah.
It says that the Bnai Shchem were reluctant to do Milah only because they did not want to do MBP, but Shimon and Levy persuaded them to do it. And the same thing when
Yosef Hatzadik forced the Mitzriem to Maleh, it was the Metzitzah Bpeh, that they did not want, so Pharoh told them, that, if they want food, they must do whatever Yosef demanded. Thats why Yosef was Zocheh to inherit Shchem.
I don’t want to argue one way or another I am definitely not learned enough to do so, but, is it possible that since many of these diseases were NOT apparent back then, and are becoming more rampant now, that some changes need to be made? I understand it is an integral part of the mitzvah, but what do we do about these beautiful boys cv’s losing their lives, getting sick etc. are there more safeguards that can be put into place?
Shame on YWN for this Headline, how do you know how the baby contacted herpes, aren’t there non-jewish or no-frum babies who get herpes, this is an attack on frum yiden who continue to do the holy mitzvah of bris milah the way Moshe rabeinu told us by kabulas hatorah and will not be intimated by the liberal media
Sigh. This again. Let’s suppose that all the reported cases actually were caused by the metzitza — that’s a logical leap, but let’s make it. So we have about one case of mortality or serious harm every three years. In that time, how many children are killed or seriously harmed in car accidents? Do we hear any calls for bans on driving children? The fact is that a baby is in more danger on the drive to and from the bris than at the bris itself. And the risk of dying from herpes contracted by metzitzah today is much lower than the risk that for thousands of years we routinely assumed for our babies from milah itself.
We have always known that milah is dangerous; babies used to die from it regularly, and for three days after milah a baby is a חולה שיש בו סכנה. We knew that there were undiagnosed genetic conditions that make milah dangerous. And yet nobody suggested that we should stop circumcising our sons because of these dangers. We willingly assumed the risk, because that is what Hashem commanded us to do. And if a baby died r”l from milah, we accepted that as the price we paid for our treaty with Hashem. Boruch Hashem today it is very rare for babies to die from milah; even known haemophiliacs can enter Avrohom Ovinu’s Treaty. So now for the first time we have the luxury of worrying about the risk of herpes. Let’s thank Hashem for so drastically reducing the price He demands of us, and not spit in His face by complaining about the tiny remaining risk – if it exists at all.
MorahRach, as I wrote in my previous comment the risk nowadays is lower than it ever was. If we accepted it before, then kol shekein we should accept it now, and thank Hashem that it’s so low.
It seems like you are a meikel when it comes to p’kuach nefesh; the Torah isn’t. As a result, we wait until a baby is well before he gets a bris and do not receive the mitzva of the bris on the eighth day. If the baby is a bleeder, there is no bris ever and no mitzva. Metitza was always done using tyhe safest method which today is not b’peh. So much for tradition.
This is such a joke. Even if they realy got it from the bris, they should first have you sign a concent form before swimming or boating, which is way more dangerous..
Government involvment is bad for all of us. We don’t need NYC controlling or limiting bris mila in any way. However we need to use common sense. Mohalim should have themselves checked every so often for herpes & other oral diseases that may prove dangerous to a newborn. If you hired a mohel & asked him to do metzitza b’peh and he shows up to the bris with a huge cold sore on his lip-what would YOU do?
To #1: Why would they need to do Metzitza Bpeh, on adult males by the people of Shechem or by the people of Mitzrayim? Do we do MBP on an adult today?
To: Millhouse, Such a long comment, without mentioning one word, that Metzitza Bpeh was just for health reasons?
There is NOT ONE SINGLE CASE EVER where Metzitza B’Peh has been linked to any sickness or death of a child.
EVER.
The Mohelim could have themselves tested privately, to make sure that they are not explicitly endangering the babies. Yes, Metzitza is required, (and all of my sons had it.)
But if someone has a choice between a Mohel who is know to be disease-free, and another who is either unknown or R”L is a confirmed risk (whether he told anyone or not is a different story) they might also be required to use the safer Mohel, as ordinary hishtadlus of V’nishmartem Me’od…
So this doesn’t have to be an attack against Mila K’Halacha, or against Mohelim and their health practices (which have worked very well for thousands of years.) It is simply a reasonable suggestion for some precautions.
Cherrybim, the Torah requires milah, even though until recently it was much more dangerous than the tiny risk we are discussing. Only if there is a specific heightened risk in a particular case, can milah be delayed or omitted. So long as the risk in a case is no higher than normal it is not called pikuach nefesh and we must assume that risk and not run away from it.
To say this is a joke mdshweks, is disgusting and your post should not have gone through. Do you think the parents of the two boys who died think it’s a joke?
And yes there ARE cases that Mbp led to the deaths. Although very few bH, in the year 2012 when we know what we do, and deaths of a newborn that could be avoided should.
Ader, yes we do metzitzah befeh on adults. And what difference does it make what the reason for it is? It remains an integral part of the mitzvah, and we have no right to dispense with it.
“Yes, Metzitza is required, (and all of my sons had it.)”
This is an important distinction that you’re unwittingly drawing. Rav Pappa in the Gemara Shabbos 133a-b requires mohelim to do METZITZA, not necessarily metzitza b’PEH.
“MBP is an itegral part fo the MItzvah.
It says that the Bnai Shchem were reluctant to do Milah only because they did not want to do MBP…
Yosef Hatzadik forced the Mitzriem to Maleh, it was the Metzitzah Bpeh, that they did not want…”
Yira, this sounds a little odd. Can you explain why they were ok with the milah itself, but the metzitza bpeh bothered them??
What you are saying is quite illogical.
It also seems wrong to say that metzitza bpeh is integral to the mitzva if you are yotzeh bedieved without it.
Yira, you wrote: “MBP is an itegral part fo the MItzvah.
It says that the Bnai Shchem were reluctant to do Milah only because they did not want to do MBP, but Shimon and Levy persuaded them to do it. And the same thing when
Yosef Hatzadik forced the Mitzriem to Maleh, it was the Metzitzah Bpeh, that they did not want, so Pharoh told them, that, if they want food, they must do whatever Yosef demanded. Thats why Yosef was Zocheh to inherit Shchem.”
sic
Where is all of this, exactly? Also, is this what one is required to do, or is it “nistar”?
The problem is that today mohels cannot be trusted 100 percent to be disease free. If we are going to require intensive monitoring and testing for the kashruth of a chicken, using magnifiers to look for the tiniest worms in fish or insects on straberries, than at a minimum anyone who hold himself out as a mohel mumchah and perform Milah with Metzitza Bpeh MUST agree to be tested for the Herpes virus at frequent intervals by a ( Badatz/ Eida Chareidit laboratory and provide a certified copy of the test results for the parents.
I always thought Pikuach Nefesh, except for the 3 exceptions, was the priority! Why can’t they do the whole bris except just not this one part that can be so risky! And how could someone say, “only 1 or 2 babies died from it”!! If it was their baby….
MorahRuach
Even people who lost children from swimming and the like continue to swim. People who lost loved ones from car accidents continue to drive, etc. etc. This, even according to the highest possibility is much much less than that.
And the truth is, not one case was ever verified through the normal medical proceedures accepted in the medical field.
Someone wrote here: “the whole Halacha is only for medical reasons”, or such. Well, who do you trust with your health? Chaza”l, or the clowns and frauds in the health department???
Yea it was first of all. Second, of their baby boy caught herpes in that area and you are claiming it is not the mohel .. Then lock those parents up! It is only contracted Orally so I ask you how do you explain it?
And have you lost a child? Has your wife carried a child for 40 weeks in her womb and than had it die because we can’t break tradition even though we have the ability to do metzizah without the peh.
“Even people who lost children from swimming and the like continue to swim. People who lost loved ones from car accidents continue to drive, etc. etc. This, even according to the highest possibility is much much less than that.”
I don’t understand this argument at all. We try to minimize risks as far as we can – which we do with swimming, driving, etc. No one is attempting to do away with metzitza per se, just modifying its practice, as did the Yad Eliezer, with the Chasam Sofer’s blessing, in Vienna in 1836.
The important thing here is METZITZA, not metzitza B’PEH.
For anyone to say its no big deal since only a few babies are alleged to have died from this procedure is about as mindless and uncaring a comment as I’ve seen here in a long time. Same for the notion that is “ok” to have this oral contact when doing milah on an adult. That itself is ordinarily considered a toevah that carries with it the death penalty. What frum mohel would even consider engaging in such pritzus.
To: #23
Avrohom Oveinu had to do Metzitza Bpeh at his Bris, and their was a Neis that his neck streched like the arm of Bas Pharoh, so that he should reach.
By Mitzvohs like MBP, there is no Pritzohs.
Milhouse – yes, but not if there is a safer method that accomplishes the same thing.
Morahrach+1 you concisely observed what I thought but couldn’t calmly put in words
Same for the notion that is “ok” to have this oral contact when doing milah on an adult. That itself is ordinarily considered a toevah that carries with it the death penalty.
What amhoratzus. This is completely false. Even if it’s done with a lewd intent, it’s “pritzus be’alma” and gets makas mardus, if that. How dare you call yourself a gadol hatorah if you’re capable of such ignorance?
And yes, milah has always carried a risk, and we are commanded to assume it. Babies have always died from milah, and that is OK, because it’s Hashem’s will. Boruch Hashem the risk is now lower than ever, but we have no right to reduce it further by omitting or compromising an integral part of the mitzvah.
Cherrybim, go learn the Sdei Chemed, who lists all the poskim for and against. Then tell me why we must follow those who permit metzitza through a straw, and ignore all the poskim who forbid it. If you were under the impression that the straw is permitted lechol hade’os, or that it’s forbidden only by a fringe opinion, then you have been sadly misled by cynical manipulators.
Second, of their baby boy caught herpes in that area and you are claiming it is not the mohel .. Then lock those parents up! It is only contracted Orally
If you are so ignorant of the facts then you have no business commenting. Go educate yourself.