The special committee appointed by IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Benny Gantz to examine the matter of kol isha has ruled that all members of the IDF, including frum soldiers, will be compelled to take part in ceremonies with female vocalists, Yediot Achronot reported on Thursday, November 17, 2011.
The appointment of the committee followed a number of cases in which Shomer Shabbat soldiers walked out of ceremonies in which females vocalists preformed.
Heading the committee was Chief of Personnel Branch Major-General Orna Barvibai. She recommended accommodating Shomer Shabbat soldiers in non-official ceremonies, which generally refers to cultural and similar events, as opposed to graduation and Memorial Day ceremonies, viewed as official functions. Regarding ‘questionable areas’, Barvibai felt each case would be decided by one’s commander, on an individual case-by-case basis.
The Kipa website reports that IDF Chief Rabbi Brigadier-General Rafi Peretz took part in the discussion, voicing his objections to permitting individual commanders to decide on a case-by-case basis, seeking to set IDF regulations that would dictate how one acts. Rav Peretz stated the alternative would be an affront to Orthodox members of the IDF.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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23 Responses
Which shows you how serious the army is about really wanting frum Jews, and which shows that the Israeli government’s real motivation for wanting to draft Orthodox Jews is NOT to better defend the country against its external enemies, but to strengthen the zionist dream of a Jewish people “liberated” from the yoke of Torah.
If a Jew in Eretz Yisrael wants to defend Eretz Yisrael, he should stick to Torah and Mitsvos and forget about the “glory” of playing soldier, and should remember that Jewish survival in the past was never the result of brave soldiers fighting the goyim, but of “cowards” who rejected the natural desire to strike out at the goyim and instead focused on learning and living lives according to Torah.
It really is an affront to orthodox soldiers- I don’t understand why this is such a necessity to have women sing?
@kuperma, we may be able to excuse your comment that we ” should remember that Jewish survival in the past was never the result of brave soldiers fighting the goyim, but of “cowards” who rejected the natural desire to strike out at the goyim and instead focused on learning and living lives according to Torah” on general ignorance of the Neviim and Kesusib since those portions of the Torah are taught as widely as the New Testament in Haredi circles from whence you spew but what on earth do you celebrate on the 25th of Kislev?
apukerma- Sure, like in 1939,1940,1941,1942,1943,1944,1945,1946 (Kielce)….You get the picture
@kuperman, on the 25th of Kisslev, we celebrate Jews who only learned but also were brave soldiers? Also, see, Yehushua’s conquests, Shaul’s wars, Dovid Hamelech’s Battles and Neviim and Kesubim, generally.
akuperma and AhavasChinam, you both missed the point. All the army meant that a good soldier has to listen to his mama’s voice. And they bring a rayah from Ramban’s first statement in Iggeret Ramban. I hope I clarified this issue for ever.
Mark my word, as more Torah Observant Soldiers leave when there is Kol Isha, a marked change will occur. This ruling will not stop any soldier from following his Rav’s Daas Torah.
Akuperma (#1): Are you simply a troll? If you are not then you need some serious professional help. I am more than willing to help you but you must take the first step.
As to the issue at hand: Yes, this is truly terrible. But why not just ignore it like we usually do? Seriously, you say? Well, if we can get just as passionate about fraud, drug smuggling, child abuse, spousal abuse, baseless hatred, murder, wife swapping, etc. (you can find these all under the carpet), it would really go a long way to lend some sort of credibility to this (relatively speaking) nonsense.
who still believes that zionism can have a shaychis to klal yisroel? anyone?
That’s no different then stating “IDF decides chilul shabbos, (eating chazer treif, or fill in the avaira of your choice) is mandatory for all”. No different than the yevonim/misyavnim of 2000 years ago.
GEVALD !!
OY VEY, HASHEM YERACHEIM !!
A VERY BIG NISAYON EVEN FOR THE CHAREIDIM.
Who knows what the Oynesh will be for the soldier that walks out !!
Mamash a chilul hashem.
I don’t think that the frum people will take this matter lightly. It is a mistake for the IDF to compel people against their religion. Might as well serve pork too.
akuperma is right. The Maccabees fought the likes of the IDF.
@laytzay and @lazerc: while i agree that if a person has a genuinely held religious belief, he should not be compelled to violate that belief (and thus this ruling by the IDF is unjust) to compare kol isha in that particular setting to eating pork, chillul shabbos, etc. shows a general misunderstanding of the basic tenets of how halacha works and applies. you and i might not hold by them but there are valid halachic opinions who do not consider this example of a woman singing to be kol ba’isha erva – at all.
As a current soldier in tzahal, I find the attitude shown by many to be extremely distasteful and lacking in gratitude. I and many of my friends left our comfortable lives in chul to join the army. We are risking our lives as well as working extremely hard in order to protect am yisroel. Instead of gratitude we find ourselves being compared to the misyavnim or similiar. As an aside, the mefakdim are extremely accommodating when it comes to dat. If I tell them that I need to daven they will make sure I get the time I need. It is one of the zchuyot guaranteed by tzahal just like food and sleep. Yes, they will play kol isha by a tekes but that doesn’t mean you have to make a statement and walk out; just shut your ears. The army is not a yeshiva and you will have to deal with these things whether its kol isha or your roomates talking on the phone on shabbos. its one of the sacrifices you need to make when you join the army. However the plus side outweighs it
Akuperma, so many people are fighting you especially the one that brought up WW2 years (obviously he doesn’t believe that was a g’zayra from HKBH!) but I want you to know your comment was PERFECT!
E”Y will NOT win a war if the IDF forces people to be oyver avayros!! To the tipish who mentioned wars of Moshe, Yehoshua, Dovid HaMelech etc., I guess you didn’t learn T’nach enough to know that those milchomos were all won (or lost) with nisim from HKB’H.
@mark levin – you misunderstood. of course all the wars were won by nisim gluyim (as were the 67 and 73 wars) but kuperma suggested that over the course of jewish history, jews never went to war – which is not only false but shows a fundamental lacking of jewish history and what it means to be a jew.
second of all, if you were already going to make your inane point and wanted to bring proof of a milchama which was won only as a result of nissim, why didnt you bring raya from chanuka , which i also cited as evidence of jews going to war?
Who’s the tippish?
Instead of busying ourselves with comments (me included), spend the time chazering the sugya of Kol Isha and learn the nuances. Being a Chasid SHOTAH is not a plus.
Okay Besalel, so what’s the Heter?
@smartalek:
Firstly, Rav Moshe (שו”ת אגרות משה אורח חיים ח”א סימן כו.) allowed one to listen to kol isha in the event there is no chimud involved and therefore allowed listening to minor girls.
The Sdei Chemed paskind that while it is preferable to be machmir, if one does not know what the woman looks like he can listen because there is no chimud. On this basis, Harav Ovadia used to himself listen to Umm Khartoum over tapes(a fat nasty egyptian singer whom he did not know what she looked like).
Rabbi Dovid Bigman, based on some kulos by the sdei chemed and another by harav ahron soleveichik (who allowed singing in groups) says there is a five prong test: (a) the intimacy of the setting; (b) the lyrics; (c) the music style or scale; (d) the dress of the singer and (e) the body language of the performer.
While I think Rabbi Bigman may be stretching the kulos he is relying upon, there is no doubt that certain types of singing by female performers are not considered erva by some poskim and the idf performers can fall into such categories.
but whether you agree or disagree with the poskim that are meikil there is zero basis to compare it to eating issurim and keeping shabbos which lie at the bedrock of our observance.
correction: maharam shik paskined about not knowing what she looked like; sdei chemed was talking about chimud in general. sorry.
The hailiger chazon ish implied very strongly that yeshiva bocharim do not belong in the idf.
besalel: EVEN IF you are correctly reporting those teshuvos, they are IRRELEVANT as they are INAPPLICABLE here.
1) They are NOT minor girls
2) You DO see the women
3) It is LIVE not a recording
etc.
This is total rishus by the army, and no frum person belongs in the armed forces there c’v.