The Shavei Machshava program that was aired on Israel’s Channel 1 hosted prominent attorney Rabbi Dov Halbertal, a familiar figure in the home of Posek HaDor Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita and veteran chareidi MK Yisrael Eichler, who also serves as editor of Machane HaChareidi. The program was held in the Ohel Moshe Shul.

The program began discussing the issue of separation of religion and state, and Halbertal stated that all ad hoc solutions to date have failed, and today, he feels only a “radical” solution will do the trick, which is why he now favors total separation of religion and state. He feels that such a move would benefit the state, and even more so the chareidi tzibur. He explains that he simply does not understand why the frum community feels a need to compel others to fall in line with our lifestyle, and if one wishes Reform conversion, then “why not” he questions.

Halbertal also pointed out that at present, the chareidim are perceived as a population which blackmails the state, always taking but never giving.

EICHLER:

Let’s operate under the assumption that we have indeed implemented total separation between religion and state. We have not solved the image program of the chareidi community. We solved the problem of imposing our way of life on others, closing communities for Shabbos.

HALBERTAL:

There is an English saying that power corrupts and total power corrupts totally. The problem is among the frum, and that is us, we are corrupted with relative power. You ask what will happen after separation. There can no longer be religious coercion, not regarding marriage, kosher, conversion or anything. Let others live.

EICHLER:

So in short, live and let live. We all go about our lives as we wish.  There is a vacuum in government however. The government is secular. You could have said we should separate the state from religion.

While I represent a chareidi point of view, but not that of Satmar, you on the other hand represent the exact view of the Yoel Moshe of Satmar, to totally separate the state and religion. The question really is what will happen to the Jewish People in such a situation. Forget all the slogans and clichés, what will happen to the people.

For me, to separate religion from state would be comfortable, as a chareidi Jew, since then I don’t need the Rabbinate and don’t have to concern myself with weddings or anything else. However, as a chareidi Jew, I am concerned with the future of our people. The moment you separate religion from state or the other way around, there are millions of people, Jews, who are not outside of Am Yisrael for the state is their religion, and once you have removed Yiddishkheit, there is nothing left for them.

In your effort to be forthcoming, you are actually harming them. For Satmar it is great, for they want nothing to do with the state anyway. Even for chareidim who are not actively against the state, but are not in favor either, this would be fine, Chassidim such as Belz, Bobov, Gur, Litvish, Sephardim, for all of them. They could live their Yiddishkheit 1001 ways without a problem, but for the secular Jews, they would have nothing else, you would impact millions in a negative way.

HALBERTAL:

We have never known a divide like that which exists today between frum and not frum. We are two different nations. It is unprecedented. What has brought this about? It is the result of the religious infrastructure that is part of the establishment that runs the country. The time has come to cut that connection.  There was a concept of status quo that began with the Chazon Ish and Ben-Gurion. It failed miserably.

When a Jew travels to India and finds a shul, he enters, respectfully, and is attached. Here, it is the opposite, and the reason is for the shul represents the religious establishment that is at the core of his disdain and hate. He sees coercion and all that is wrong with his life. All day what does he hear ‘Shas wants and Shas says’. He is not interested. He is tired of hearing it. ‘There is money for Belz’ and so forth.

EICHLER:

You sound just like Shulamit Aloni. Why don’t you just tell the tzibur that you agree with her? You are not talking facts, but just being a mouthpiece for the secular lying media. You are not telling the truth but just spreading their diatribe – that of religious coercion.

HALBERTAL:

Please, let’s talk facts. What I am saying is true and this is what the general public hears, feels and believes. Do you go to the State Rabbinical Courts, no! So why compel them to go. They want to get married their way why not let them. You wish to compel others to rely on a system you yourself want nothing to do with.

The tone is getting a bit more emotional and passionate as Eichler has become significantly less cordial in his remarks.

EICHLER:

No I don’t want to go there and don’t compel others to do so but you go to the Haaretz newspaper and publish articles that are against rabbonim and chareidim. This is simply an act of betrayal against your people.

HALBERTAL:

Are you responding to the points or opting to just level a personal attack against me?

EICHLER:

An attack against you since it is you who have chosen to become a vehicle for incitement against the religious tzibur. You won’t do it to the frum and you won’t do it to me for I am more familiar with the other side than you.

HALBERTAL:

I am pained and sorrowed over the exact issues you mention. Therefore, the moment there is true separation of religion and state, the moment the chareidi establishment does not impose itself on the others, Jews and non-Jews alike…

EICHLER:

What do you mean by “goyim” – what about the settlers and the Arabs?

HALBERTAL:

I come from the Diaspora. I knew a different Yiddishkheit, a more subdued, tolerant and rational people. What happened over 50 years? Fanatic settlers, occupation, Uman, Mekubalim – this is what being Jewish is about today? Is this your perfect dream? Is this what you seek? What exists today represents a major failure.

EICHLER:

In England today they have these reality shows, “Big Brother” and in that program, a statement was uttered that can be interpreted that the local chareidi community there receives government assistance, or something like that. That person was ousted, fired, that very same day, for in the Diaspora, one cannot get away with making such derogatory statements like here in Israel.

HALBERTAL:

Tell me, in England do they burn garbage bins? Do they set bus stops ablaze? In England, do they avoid military service and absolve themselves from patriotic duties? Chareidim there are like all other citizens. Are you trying to compare between here and England. Be England and then we can talk.

EICHLER:

The moment the Israel media stops attacking and portraying chareidim as they do, everything you said, item by item, will stop. First of all, there is no religious coercion. Those throwing rocks represent a very small minority, less than the criminals from other sectors. The moment a chareidi is involved in an unacceptable act, all chareidim are held accountable. This is an anti-Semitic stereotype par excellence, and you have identified with it.

HALBERTAL:

Why does everyone think about you this way? Have you ever given this some thought? Why? Did you ever sit in a quiet room, alone, putting on a thinking cap and try to contemplate the real issues?

Are they all anti-Semites? The entire street is anti-Semitic and only you are correct?

EICHLER:

Let me tell you a secret. You live in a world of the media while I live in a world of reality, a world where more people are returning to the fold, respect for one another, a world in which millions wish to identify with and become closer to their religion. Some run to Uman, others to shul, shuls today are full. People love their religion. Those ultra secularists – when it comes to a bris milah or a wedding, they too opt for a Jewish one. I don’t impost anything on them.

HALBERTAL:

It is a matter of how one arrives at such a decision.

EICHLER:

Your way if far from the correct one. You will get to the media very quickly, but you will not arrive at the truth.

HALBERTAL:

The path to achieve this is clear. Once there is separation, they will come to you in a more favorable way. I believe the non frum do seek their religion but the establishment as it exists does not permit this.

One seeking a different way of life – does this option exist today? One wishing a Reform conversion, may he do so today in our state? One wishing to raise pigs for  a living, may he do so? What about someone looking for a bus on Shabbos?

EICHLER:

Wait a moment; do you want that a Reform conversion should be an available option for people? Do you want Reform conversion?

HALBERTAL:

Yes! Live how you wish and permit others the same. We do not have the moral/ethical right to impose our way upon others. Give others an option. Permit others to live!

EICHLER:

What ethical right. What do you derive your morality from?

HALBERTAL:

From myself.

EICHLER:

You, yourself?

HALBERTAL:

What do you mean from where do I derive my ethical/moral values?

EICHLER:

Excuse me. I did not know with whom I am meeting with exactly. Remove the yarmulke from your head and tell the truth. My source is myself! Don’t continue to dupe us. I say that my source is Hashem and his Torah, that and that alone! Everyone should do as they please. One wishing to marry as a Jew may and if not, also fine. There is no coercion.

HALBERTAL:

Sure there is and you do not permit one to marry in a non-Jewish way. 

EICHLER:

You are simply making allegations that are unfounded.

HALBERTAL:

And you are just making personal attacks, seeking to avoid addressing the issues at hand.

EICHLER:

Quite the contrary – I am only addressing the issues. I have nothing against you personally but I am pained to see you serving the ideology of those who hate us. Excuse me but your words are hateful. Where do you make a living? You lecture in university, which receives from the establishment which you are part of. By your plan, separation of religion and state, the chareidi education system will not receive a penny. That is what you want. That is what the first paragraph of separation of religion and state calls for.

I have no problem with coercion – for over 20 years we never legislated a single law. It was the Mizrachim (dati leumi), they did it, not us.

Find me a single law that I legislated that has anything to do with religion. I have laws dealing with ambulances and other social issues, never religion.

HALBERTAL:

Okay, if you wish – as you say, I side with Shulamit Aloni.

EICHLER:

Shulamit Aloni launched a campaign towards an atmosphere against religion, hate, against all the Jews and you, today, are joining those ranks.

HALBERTAL:

Bottom line – live and let live. There is no other moral alternative. If Heaven forbid you were in charge, the first thing you would do is shut down television. You haven’t a clue what it means to run a country. You simply oppose any and all Zionist values. I am working to change the coercion, hate, jaded view that exists.

EICHLER:

We are so far apart in our views there is nothing to speak about. What are you doing? You are member of the establishment, receive a government salary, and live on one today as well.

HALBERTAL:

I am not speaking on a personal level. I am not speaking to you as Rabbi Eichler.

EICHLER:

I too am not speaking to you on a personal level. Dov Halbertal may be a wonderful Jew. I even hear that he attends shiurim from Rav Elyashiv. He was a great person when he headed the religious department of Kol Yisrael. But the Dov Halbertal who today speaks against my tzibur, who espouses hate against millions watching and via Haaretz, blaming me and the rabbis for destroying religion, he is not the same person.

HALBERTAL:

I have not changed. Today’s realities have changed. I am most concerned over the growing powerbase of the religious and chareidim, and in this context they are one and the same.

EICHLER:

Today’s reality is far better than that which existed 20 years ago when I began appearing on television. There is far more understanding and yes, there are still anti-Semites, those who receive funds from the United States to push their agenda. This too we must say. I don’t say that you chas v’sholom receive money from the Reform but there are those who do, who incite the world against us. Why are so many against us? Why does the international community want to recognize a Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 borders?

HALBERTAL:

I have what to say about this too but that is for another.

EICHLER:

Fine, but what does this tell us? It tells us that the hate for a strange is part of human nature. The frum and chareidi community is ‘foreign/strange’ in the eyes due to the different culture and ways, different than the modern Israeli culture. This is why I am a major proponent of democracy, which makes allowances for all, the strange as well.

HALBERTAL:

Tell me by the way, regarding democracy. When was the last time one of you was elected in a primary race?

EICHLER:

I am for democracy for without it, people like you…

HALBERTAL:

Gafne is in the political arena for over 30 years. This is what you call democracy?

EICHLER:

Yes, indeed. He is the man the tzibur wants. In our kehila, I was selected because I am popular.

HALBERTAL:

Indeed – you appear on the Zionist television.

EICHLER:

Ah, so you see there is democracy with us too. I read your columns in Haaretz and understand you are in the enemy camp to attack your brother. There are brothers who are enemies. A civil war is the worst. The minute that remains, I call on you to change your ways. You are serving those who hate Yiddishkheit.

HALBERTAL:

Quite the contrary, I serve Yiddishkheit.

EICHLER:

Your criticism and desire for separation of religion and state may be legitimate, but when you blame the frum sector that they are the blame of the hate against them is counterproductive.

HALBERTAL:

The politicizing of religion like we have seen over the last 50 years has caused the hate. It begins with the settlers that turn politics into strength leading to funding on the backs of others and it ends with politics and the establishment, you and others like you, who do try to compel your way of life upon others.

EICHLER:

Baruch Hashem you are not in charge. The public is far smarter than you believe and by and large oppose separating religion and state, aware that the contrary is true, that we need a state with religion. I agree however that if religion was not mixed in with politics it would be better for all. We would not need chareidi parties at all, and that would be fine. This however is theory, and in actuality, this is not the case and these parties are indeed necessary. Wishing everyone a good year.

(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)