High payments to Shadchanim could help solve the growing problem of late marriage in the religious sector, Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira, head of the Ramat Gan hesder yeshiva, stated. Shapira believes that if parents would be willing to spend more money on Shadchonus, this could significantly change the matchmaking scene.
According to Ynet, in Charedi society, it is customary to pay at least $2,000 to the Shadchan.
“The phenomenon of late marriages creates another serious problem – an impossible burden on the ‘amateur’ matchmakers,” the rabbi explained. “The matchmaker invests plenty of time in making phone calls and in offers that eventually fall through. He then spends time in helping and counseling the couple.
“If we multiply this with the number of attempts and couples, we’ll see how this could lead to a breakdown among matchmakers,” he added.
The rabbi said that while families usually invest tens of thousands on a wedding, they are more reluctant to pay the matchmakers who made the event possible.
(Source: Ynet)
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42 Responses
won’t help. there are plenty of matches being made & boys are getting dates with no problem (at least in the yeshivish community). there just aren’t enough good boys to go around. we have to work on making more good boys.
and zalman, we need to teach the young ladies to be more realistic and focus on the innermost core of midos, not only on what does he do? where will we be living? etc.
Well put, zalman. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Boys are being red absolutely incredible girls right and left, usually all at the same time. Girls are lucky if they get red one good boy a month. The ratio of good boys to good girls is significantly unbalanced and really worrisome.
I have done a few shiducham, i got payed pennies.
I did one where the wedding was in the hilton
i got $3600
$3600 seems like good money to me!
Lipa – Had you not sang there, you would have gotten a lot more
Its not all that good for a Lipa!
Lipa – at least it was “a bissel koosher gelt”!!
As a shadchan, I think Rabbi Shapira is 100% right! People try a shidduch or 2, get burnt & never try again. If they would get a few bucks & if people would give more shadchanus, the shidduch problem would decrease somewhat. Nothing is going to solve it, but at least if people realize that maybe Rabbi Shapira is on target – we will be on the right track to solving this problem!
Seriously
I don’t think that money will solve it.
I think the answer lies in creating for each community a
VAAD HASHIDUCHIM
Each town would support kollel yungiliet who would be trained to be involved with Shiduchim for people from that town.
The amount of Community Shaddchanim would be in accordance with the population.
It would be supported by the community just like the Vaad Hakashrus or the Eruv is supported.
If a shidduch is made it the money goes into the community account to continue this work and fund raisers would be held to support it as well.
This would not drive shaddchonim out of business because people who could afford can always use a private shaddchon for better service. This WOULD insure that boys and girls from “poorer” families got attention as well.
THIS plan I think would work.
Any thoughts ?
I do not think that kollel yungelit are the best equipped for shiddichim, they are an asset getting the bochurim to go out on dates, but for the young ladies, a mature torahdik dating coach is more benefical.
ZZZZ, thats my point of advice.
just for the record – how much does each side pay these days??
I am astounded by this story.
Paying more money will accomplish what,exactly,except give shadchanim more money. If one came across a shadchan who wasn’t give his/her all, I’d go find someone else. What’s more, knowing a shadchan is looking for a big pay day, I would be suspicious about the quality of the shidduch, and how much pressing the shadchan would do just to push it through.
I could not agree with you more.
the shidduch crisis boils down to one thing and one thing only and that is BEING PICKY!!!!!!! If everyone would stop asking what are THEY offering shidduchim would be made a lot sooner
The main problem is a demographic one. There aren’t more girs than boys, but there are more 18-22 year olds than 23-26 year olds. Boys need to be willing to date older girls, girls need to be willing to date younger boys; and in general boys should start dating younger and girls older.
HaMagnat, I don’t think there is any practical solution to what you mention that can be enforced. You may convince some people to change, and that is a good thing, but that type of change would require a sea change in societal behaviour in our communities.
Technically, the only thing that may work is to do, lehavdil elef havdolos, like the Mormons–and like we used too. Polygamy.
All people are motivated by is money? That’s sad.
Surely the Mitzvah one gets from making a shidduch is worth more than all the money in the world.
Sad. Sad. Sad.
Feh. My rov gave me very good guidelines for dating, and the order of the questions is the order in which a person should move through the shidduch process.
(1) Are you attracted to the person (a person cannot be with someone to whom s/he is not attractive, and this is subjective based on the person)?
(2) Can you talk about “the issues” with the person (no matter what those important issues are – hashkofoh, family, money – without the ability to communicate honestly, the relationship is doomed)?
(3) Can you grow with the person (anyone who thinks that they mature and then marry is incorrect – you mature partially, marry, and then mature some more – and growth is both intellectual, emotional, and in yahdus)?
(4) Do you think you’ll do any better (asked rhetorically, i.e., the answer should be, if you find someone to whom you are physically attracted, and with whom you can discuss serious issues honestly, and with whom you think you can grow as a person, then grab that person and start building a bayis ne’eman b’yisrael).
Enough focusing on how much money the shver has and who will buy the bedroom set.
This is frankly an embarrasment. Does this then imply that shadchanim prefer to set up the rich girl/boy over everyone else? Does it all boil down to money? What will be with the modest families or even the poor ones who can’t afford to pay more? Do they not deserve to be set up with the same energy, enthusiasm and classification as anyone else? Perhaps there should be a “shadchanus gelt” gemach to pay the difference of whatever a family cannot afford so everyone can be treated equally when redding a shidduch.
How about we have more young men working when they get married, so that money is not a major issue of discussion. After all, if the couple can support themselves financially, you don’t need to ask and answer questions about support coming fromt the parents or inlaws. This is otherwise known as following what the kesuba says is part of a Jewish marriage.
Himmelstein – I think people are paying about $1,500 each side these days
torahis1, to each his own…
But is she really that bad?
😉
telegrok,
The priorities in finding a shidduch are the person’s values, midos, human qualities, hashkofos [views], ne’emonus [honesty/trustworthiness], yoshrus [integrity], gentleness, mentshlachkeit, rachus [softness and flexibility], ne’eemus [sweetness, ability to blend well with others], mesiras nefesh [ability to sacrifice and extend oneself], acharayus [responsibility], bechira [the ability to choose to obey Torah, especially when put to a test] and koach-hanesinah [generosity, the ability to give unconditionally and steadily].
Everything else on the list is secondary. Attraction should definitely not be the #1.
I want to weigh in on the issue and remark on some of the comments posted.
First off, I think that the most logical and substantial point so far is regarding the age factor.
Frum girls today are being pressured to begin dating as early as possible upon returning from seminary or wherever they spent their one and only year of freedom after high school. Some are even foregoing the privilege of going to Israel in order to stay close to home and have first crack at the shiduch scene.
The boys on the other hand, have the opportunity to spend 4 or 5 years after high school either learning or going to college or both. To start dating at 23 is not unusual.
One would hope that by this age the boy has gained enough maturity to go toe to toe with an 18 year old girl fresh off the plane.
The systematic problem at this juncture, is that many boys are unwilling to date the girls 20 or older because they are viewed as ‘old goods’. They feel they first deserve a crack at the fresh crop of girls that have emerged on the shiduch market.
This all may sound rather crude, but unfortunately it is the reality of the situation.
Why is it that when someone hears of a 25 year old single girl, the first reaction is “Nebuch, I wonder what’s wrong with her? There must be something wrong with her because she hasn’t found a shiduch.”
All this being said, this clearly gives a clue as to the mystery of there being more ‘quality girls’ and a ‘shortage of good boys’.
Take a sample selection of any average 23 year old boy and girl. (I am generalizing, but bear with me). The boy is fresh on the shiduch market, and is only competing with boys older than him for the quality girls. He seems to be in a very good spot. He is getting names of girls from age 18-23 and possibly older if he is willing to listen.
The 23 year old girl on the other hand is lucky to hear from the 23-25 year olds. A little longer and people begin giving her names of 30 year olds and some divorced men (no bias intended). There is almost no chance of her dating someone younger than her.
All I have done so far is outline some of the problems. I don’t claim to have a solution, but any comments or solutions to my observations would be welcome.
Chicago Mentch, The better solution is to have the boys start dating earlier as well. Pirkei Avos says Shemonah Esre L’Chupah. There are many reasons for that.
Also, regarding girls “foregoing the privilege of going to Israel”, why is there such a “privilege”? It benefits no one. That is a problem with society today. People feel entitled to their “privileges.” (Including, as another poster above assumed, the privilege of “who” will but the chosson/kallah the “bedroom set” and everything else.)
A large cause of the “shidduch crisis” is that many people are looking for the wrong (non-ikkur) qualities. Girls feel pressured to look like the latest models from Paris, etc.
Joseph – #26: You have mentioned wonderful, objective midos – and I mean midos in the true sense of the word, the characteristics that make a person an ehrliche individual. Of course, hashkofos, integrity, trustworthiness – who in his or her right mind would argue that those are characteristics we do not look for? And, your note raises a point with which I agree entirely – there cannot be a short-sighted and shallow emphasis on “looks.” But, the parameters that my rov spoke of are subjective, and tailored to the individual – my rov did not say, “Make sure the girl is a size 2 and has bright blue eyes” – rather, he said, “you must find her attractive” – and what one fellow finds attractive, another might not – beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it would simply be incorrect that a man or woman could enter into a lifelong marriage relationship if they do not find the other physically attractive -again, not empirically attractive, but attractive to them (him or her).
As for the questions of, can you communicate with the person, and can you grow with the person – my values may be like yours – perhaps we both stress to our children the importance of the midos you listed – but what good are two incredible people if they lack, for whatever reason, the ability to communicate with each other? It is likely that at the time you married you could identify other women who were as fine a person as your kallah – and likely you dated good people, too – but for some reason, something “clicked” between you and your kallah (unless she was the first and only you ever met) – and so that is the question of, can you talk about the issues with her – once we determine a person has the threshold proper midos, and has a face to which we can awake for the next 70 years (again, basic threshold issues), then we say, “can I talk seriously with the this person about difficult things?” because without that ability, how do two people manage a home or raise children, neither of which task is easy?
and then, “can you grow with her” – what good is life if one cannot grow? How much better a marriage when it leads to further growth of the people involved, because they are involved with each other daily –
and then after all that, the smile arrives and a gentle question, “Do you think you’ll do any better than this?” You find the midos – you find a face that is pleasant to you – you learn that you can talk about the most meaningful things – and then you see that you can grow with this person – and then you take the proper step toward that growth –
A shadchanas once called me and asked me what dress size I am looking for – I told her that since I was not in the habit of wearing women’s clothing, I could not answer her question – after marriage and children, I still could not answer the question – I do not know what size my wife wears – it does not matter to me
Joseph (28): The first practical hurdle I see with the boys dating at 18 or 20 is, will they be able to earn a living at that age?
telegrok, I agree your point has validity and is a consideration when looking for a shidduch, but it is secondary. If you find all the true qualities, then you must ask yourself is she attractive enough for me to live with, etc.
If your (hypothetical) choice ‘A’ is a girl with top midos, values, hashkofos, ne’eemus, yoshrus, etc., and you can manage to live with her looks; but choice ‘B’ is the most beautiful you’ve ever encountered (as well as top in communications, etc.), but her midos, values, hashkofos, ne’eemus, yoshrus, etc. are “okay”, then choice ‘A’ is your runaway selection.
Another point is that many people fool themselves on the question of “Do you think you’ll do any better than this?” (most notoriously regarding looks, but other issues as well) and it delays and/or impedes their ability to get married.
I don’t see any impediment for a young man to earn a living at 18. A 6 figure salary? No. A living, yes. Shemona Esre L’Chupa says the mishna. (It would also somewhat correct the statistical “imbalance” between the genders.)
18 is a very practical age – by then a person has had an opportunity to learn a large amount of Torah. The Gemorah (Kiddushin 29b) says that from a perspective of guarding against aveiros, 16 is better and 14 is better yet. The Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer 1:3) says that the best way to perform the mitzvah of marriage is to get married at age 13.
The halachic deadline is age 20. If a man has not gotten married by age 20, the Gemorah says that all of his days he will have improper thoughts.
1)I must say that at least in the chasidesher olem there is a lot of confusion regarding giving information..(i don’t know why I em the 1st one bringing out this point …) a lot of shiduchim get ruined just thru that….
& 2) mishkon yecheskal came out with a new idea to help the shiduch problem ,thru a magzine that they print out every so often of a lot of names & a lot of details of the person…..i think they have a lot of good things coming out from there
3. I will be back a little later…i got to go to sleep its late…
If everyone would really feel the pain of singles searching for their bashert and try to ease their pain by redding appropriate shidduchim, then more shadchanus $ would not be a necessary motivator towards making shidduchim. How many people(married obviously) can really say they feel the pain of the multitudes of singles ? For some reason it seems that once people find their bashert & get married they seem to 4get the frustrating experience of shidduchim and move on with their lives..Hello?!? Have you forgotten that quickly? What about your single friends, classmates, neighbors etc….? Now that you have ur wife/husband where are their friends ?? Set them up with other singles u know. A common response from people is oh I dont know a/o good enough 4 u..yeah thanks 4 thinking so highly of us but let US decide if their “good enough” or not. There are many people who sincerely red appropriate shidduchim & its a huge zechus for them we just have to get more people recruited. Also it would be nice if todays “yeshiva” boys would be more sincere with their frumkeit & haskafos, many “serious” learners are not as hotshot serious & frum as their made out to be. Ask any single frum girl in the shidduch parsha what the #1 reason she rejects a guy 4- its hashkafos/frumkeit!
#32: I always wondered why I have the thoughts I do. Now I realize it must be because I married after age 20.
Thank You for helping explain this so I could understand.
Chicagomentsh
Do not know which guys you are talking to, most of the guys I know aged 23 and up, are not looking for ‘fresh merchandise’, who are immature, on an artifical high when returning from E”Y, and quite clueless about the world. The young ladies 21plus are the high commondity for these guys, and it is not unusual to marry girls the same age also.
Joseph #31: I agree 1,000% – the character of the girl is far more important than the way she looks, and anyone whose priorities is “looks” should take a break from dating and learn Koheles, esp. the final perek.
As for the question of, “do you think you’ll do better,” the question is intended to be rhetorical, i.e., “what are you waiting for, you foolish man?” In other words, if you find that the broad criteria have been met, then you move forward – the goodness that comes from the marriage comes from working together – maybe people think that the day after they marry their bayis ne’eman is a mansion – the answer is, no, you find someone with whom you can build effectively – your mansion comes after many years of hard work
Maybe it is time for schools to take some time and teach the kids about relationships and the realities of life – maybe to dispel the notions of, “I’ll meet my prince or princess and then I will be happy.”
Why should people pay more Shaddchanos? So that only the children of doctors and businessmen and bankers will find shidduchim? So that more fathers have to resort to going around the country, knocking on strangers’ doors to collect money to meet the insane standards that we’ve created for ourselves? At least 80% of us are not wealthy, yet the orthodox lifestyle gets more and more expensive. Buying furniture for the chasson and callah, sheitels, watches, 5 piece bands at the wedding, fixing up your house so that you can give a good impression while your children are dating,…and now insane fees for shaddchanos, it all equates with gashmius, perhaps even jealousy (have to keep up with the Cohens).
Personally, I am someone who will very likely to be able to afford all of this when my children (IY”H) become of dating age, but I will not participate in any of it. I am not selling my children, I am marrying them off, and I want them to marry people who value them for who they are and not mine or my husband’s wallets.
the character of the girl is far more important than the way she looks, and anyone whose priorities is “looks” should take a break from dating and learn Koheles, esp. the final perek.
I think we can all agree that attraction has to exist. It’s kind of silly to make logical arguments against it, because it is illogical. All the arguments in the world will not help if someone is unattracted to someone else. In my opinion, and perhaps that’s why I’m still single, it’s counter-productive. It will either make someone feel guilty for saying no to someone he or she is unnatracted to, or it can actually make someome marry someone he is unnatracted to because he hears it from so many people, and thinks he’s doing the right thing. That is obviously not a healthy marriage. It doesn’t matter if it’s someone’s #1, 2 or 3 issue and priority. The bottom line is that it has to exist.
I think there are 2 instances of marriages mentioned in the TaNaCh. Lavan’s fanfare of (quasi-paying) for Yaakov’s marriage to Leah, and the relative quiet of Boaz’s marriage to Ruth. What an interesting contrast, and good cause for discussion.
Alter Bachur,
It does matter if looks is someones #1 priority. telegrok is correct. This is a large reason for today’s “shidduch crisis.” People are prioritizing the wrong attributes.
The only issue with looks in shidduchim should be, “can I manage to live with her looks?” You shouldn’t be “looking” for the best looks.
By men engaging in this contemptible behavior, it also causes many girls to dress improperly.
Joseph, you sound like an expert on all topics.
I believe some have it down to a monetary science. Meaning how much are you giving for support. Even a rosh yeshiva from either brisk or lakewood told shadchonim “only with money”.
Like yoggi berra said, if you don’t believe me you could look it up.”.
Thanks Mike! (Although I can’t admit it being the case for everything.)
eilu v’eilu – Alter Bochur (40) and Joseph (42) are both correct – a person MUST be attracted to, i.e., find attractive, the person to whom s/he will marry. But a fellow or girl who has unrealistic expectations and thinks that s/he must marry the most handsome/beautiful person is crazy – and if a person is satisfied with only that one-in-a-million look, then it might be a while until you find it.
So, I maintain my original position: you must be attracted to the person, but “attractive” does not necessarily mean “objectively drop-dead movie-star beautiful.”
And I recommend the last perek of Koheles – you want to know what in this life matters, read that with Rashi’s peirush – that’s the ikur –