Democratic Gov. Eliot Spitzer, following through on a campaign pledge, unveiled a bill Friday to legalize “alternative lifestyle” marriage in New York. But the powerful Republican leader of the state Senate, Majority Leader Joseph Bruno immediately declared himself still opposed to the notion of having New York join neighboring Massachusetts as the only states permitting this shameful act.
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36 Responses
Who cares? It’s already called an alternative “lifestyle?” If married people want to take vitamins, that’s fine by me.
Since when did a doctrine of tolerance become “shameful” to Jews? What the Torah does not allow us to do, we are obliged not to do. However, we should not be in the business of imposing our way of life on others just because we happen to have the numbers and influence to do so. We must remember the pain that intolerance has caused our people and champion the freedoms that today let us practice our religion in peace.
We may not approve of a certain action or way of life, but we must nevertheless support every man’s right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Since when has a doctrine of tolerance become “shameful” to Jews? Have we forgotten the suffering of which we were the victim at the hands of centuries of intolerant leaders who refused to accept our Jewish way of life. Shall we now impose our scruples on others simply because the winds of power have shifted?
What is assur to us, we are obliged to refrain from doing. This does not entail robbing our neighbors of their right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If we do not take the lead in supporting the cause of tolerance, our own freedoms will be in jeopardy.
Yah, illini07, you must have supported Spitzer. My post was censored, too.
There’s no reason yidden should be against this, let them do whatever they want.
“Unreligious civil marriage between men and woman, and spousal privileges for cohabiting straight couples (also shameful) so what’s the difference”
For Bnei Noach, the difference is that between men and women, it isn’t shameful at all. In fact, it’s the only way. Between men and men, I believe it falls under the Sheva Mitzvos (Arayos), and is a capital offense, although I’m not sure. Many Arayos that are prohibited to Jews are permitten to Bnei Noach (for example, father-daughter, although the Rambam writes that the goyim have accepted not to do this).
Interesting timing- in that it was unveiled just before this week’s Parsha. Another lesson for American Jews- do not vote Democratic. We no longer have anything in common with that political party.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone. When Spitzer was Attorney General, he intervened in a private lawsuit between Yeshiva University and a couple who objected to the policy of the University’s law school allowing only married couples to live together in its dormitory. He took the position that Yeshiva Univeversity’s policy should not be permitted by the courts.
Keep in mind that neither the Attorney General nor the State of New York was a party to that lawsuit. Spitzer took it upon himself to intervene in the lawsuit, although he was not required to do so.
When Spitzer ran for governor, Orthodox organizations fell over one another in declaring Spitzer to be a friend of Orthodox Jews. They knew that it was false, but they also knew that Spitzer would win. I guess Sheker is OK when it is politically expedient.
There is a mdrash that says that the gezerah of the mabul was finalized because they permitted a shtar erusin between 2 men- Vhamayvin yovin
Chaverim:
It is important to educate yourselves on this issue before offhanded comments.
Rachmono Litzlon if this law passes!!! Religious adoption institutions such as A Time and Bonei Olam, would be required to allow “shame couples” to adopt or they could lose state funding. (This actually happened in Mass) Your Rov may be required by the state to recognoze a “shameful” congregant as a full member. Do you really think this filthy minuvalim will be happy if they are given this “equal right”? Towncrier and Burich, when will realize that these vile shtufei zeema has a very direct effect on our environment?
I care very much about this and it will affect all of our lives.
As to you sorry members of the Democrat Party, you all scream about President Bush ignoring the will of the people, every referendum banning alternative lifestyle marriage has past with SUPER majority, why do you impose the will of the few twisted humans (homos and their supporters) on the VAST majority of decent people.
“Nebach. All forms of “civil marriage” arent exactly religious.
We already tolerate unreligious civil marriage between men and women, and spousal priveleges for cohabitating straight couples (also shameful) so whats the difference?” AND “There’s no reason yidden should be against this, let them do whatever they want.”
Bimchilas kivodchem – what ever the outside world does has the potential to make a roshem on us. Our neshumos are very delicate. It’s true that we live in a decadent world, but allowing marriage between man and man can have a whole different affect on us.
Let us cry through the town about how Jews are concerned about whether or not other religions consider a marriage legitimate. Why should we care if the Galach made money from their marriage? We don’t recognize their religious marriages any more than civil ones anyways. These, on the other hand, are a toeva.
Listen, we all know that in a couple of years it will be allowed nationwide. Do not get involved and make another group bitter at us. Suffrage and integration was considered as immoral as this a hundred years ago; things will change, whether the Jews like it or not.
Velicher choosid, you asked, “Why do you impose the will of the few twisted humans (homos and their supporters) on the VAST majority of decent people?”
It is true that they are a small minority, and on this issue the majority may disapprove. But there is a larger issue of freedom, equality, fairness, and opposition to oppression and discrimination. These principles exist to protect all of us, and once we vote to limit those protections, we jeopardize everything we hold dear. Today, we’ll exclude the them from equal protection under the law, tomorrow another Hitler ym”sh smay rise up and exclude the Jew. And zeh yihye be’ashmateinu that he will succeed.
Though the immediate issue is a minority opinion, the wider principle of personal freedom, which extends to religious freedom, is one we all support.
however, opposing the law in NY….seems legit. to me….why not oppose what we see as wrong?
Edited by Site Moderation Panel.
the torah calls such marriages a toevah- abomination….in the eyes of G-d it is an abomination.period.He assurs us from doing so but the act itself is an abomination no matter who it is…so no we should not be imposing our views on others….yet the world was created to be a certain way ..
To Teddy Douglas:
My apologies for insulting your “sensitivities” but when the tally is made I will stand of the side of decency and I will oppose the toi’evuh (a language hashem used rather sparingly) you think is discrimination.
Food for thought: Is it really descrimination if they are allowed the same privileges we are? They too can mary TODAY if they choose a proper marriage. Descrimination would be allowing someone the right to marry while denying that same right to another. Such is NOT the case here.
to teddy, burich, illini07 and their ilk. Your ignorince is astounding. Although we all want tolerance and we dont want lynchings of these sick people, we cannot tolerate the passing of this law.The gemara in kesubos clearly states, that when mashiach comes hashem will thank those nations who refrained from writing marriage contracts beteween man and man and man with animals. That will be the only deed that will save some of those nations. Obviously there is a huge difference between tolerance and actually keeping silent when there is a chance to fight a bill that goes beyond reprehensible.
Of course this is terrible. It’s going against the natural teva of the world.
I never trusted him. The Democrats always wanted this. But, the very menuvalim who are fighting for this what the end result will be; they will be put into a higher tax bracket!
This is a SICK debate. Anyone who could support this rishus should see a therapist.
Do you think that there will be no Jews taking advantage of such a sick law? Do you think that Jewish children will not notice the greater prevelance of these sick people if they succeed in this endeavor?
Do you think these sick people will stop with this law? NO. Next they will demand “affirmative action” and everyone hire a certain number of them. Etc… they will never stop.
your right Qodush:
It is not debatable. Hashem Yeracheim.
illini07: By twisting the words of the Torah, you are an apikores.
velicher choosid:
You made a good point that cross-gender marriage is open to all types of people, therefore there is no discrimination. But the Inquisition could have made the same argument against the Jews. “We don’t discriminate, you have the same right to live as a free Christian that anyone else has.” That is beside the point. Jews don’t want to live as Christians and these people don’t want cross-gender marriages.
Hocker:
illini’s right. One act is assur, living in the same house is not. By calling people names like apikores, you do little to make your point and much to make yourself look incapable of producing an intelligent argument.
Both of you are now considered Novul Birshus Hatotrah.
Feh.
there is no reshus hatorah for such horrible statements. It is a mitzva to hate them (chinuch 243).
illini07 for president (of sodom)
It is an abomination no matter who does it and it would legitimize this abomination. Nothing is sacred anymore. It is just like Sodom and Amorah.
Lishem Hashem: You wrote “The gemara in kesubos clearly states, that when mashiach comes hashem will thank those nations who refrained from writing marriage contracts beteween man and man and man with animals. That will be the only deed that will save some of those nations.”
Don’t you understand that the gemora was written 100 years ago.
In the year 2007 we need to be tolerant. WE have to accept them.
NOT.
These commentators above are clearly questioning the Torah Hakdosha.
By stating that “the torah did not call a toeva if two men married”….YES THAT IS APIKORSES.
Frankly the law should be if any of these sickos apply for a license, that instead they are given capital punishment.
I volunteer to the State of New York my services for free in carrying out the penalty.
Lethal injection seems a bit too easy. The electric chair in Sing Sing should do the trick though.
Illin and teddydouglas:
We come to Yeshivaworld as a haven from opinions such as yours. Yours is not the language of tolerance; it is that of abomination.
You do have free will to choose your opinions; however, why come specifically to this site to share your thoughts? There are thousands of blogs whose members share your perspective…
illini07 Says:
1 “…The fact that you look at them like…not “decent” human beings” is completely counter to everything Jewish….’
2 “…no religious institution would be required to recognize such marriages…”
3 “…certain physical acts between two men… (though what happens in private is none of our concerns – A frum, celibate alternative lifestyle… and let’s not forget to give the benefit of the doubt….)”
1) so when the Torah calls it an abomination and those who engage in as those who brought blood upon themselves and they should not be allowed to live – is that also counter to everything Jewish? Such a foolish comment!
2) wrong again. if this qualified alt-lifestyle person applied for a job at a Yeshiva that accepts public funds for the secular subjects and they hire him and then he puts the other down as his spouse, guess what, if they fire him, he will have a civil rights violation lawsuit.
3) More nonsense! a truly frum committed person would NEVER put himself into such a position of ridicule and scorn as to even appear to be of an alt-lifestyle. he may not get married, and remain celebate, but he would never publically go and apply for a civil marriage.
let’s see of this ,makes it past the editors: “ill”ini07, by far, you have secured the grand prize for the most idiotic, drivel posted on this site! (teddydouglas – you’re in 2nd place)
everyone else: keep up the good work.
shazam: the G’MARA in Sanhedrin discusses this issue. If I remember, I will post the page number. If someone knows, please post and not wait for me. Art, I know you are reading this and you usually have the sources…
go hocker go!
feh???
MDLEVINE SAYS:
‘let’s see of this ,makes it past the editors: “ill”ini07, by far, you have secured the grand prize for the most idiotic, drivel posted on this site! (teddydouglas – you’re in 2nd place)’
I agree with your basic point, however I’ve read and even debated Illini a few times before. I seriously think she/he represents the most shameful
ignorance I’ve ever encountered.
I think it best that remarks like these should be censored with a bit more caution because they are painfully embarrassing to all of us. Not to mention that they totally discredit the basic Hashkofos which serve as the FOUNDATION of our religion.
illini07 :
I know how you love to blindly tow the line of liberals but I stand with pride (a term your type should be familiar with) saying YES I HATE!!
I do not hate the sinner just the sin. By definition taking pride in a sin, any sin, and demanding equal rights for being a sinner says that the sinner is now a cheftzah of sin. Teshuva is always possible but that is a person I will hate – with pride!!!
The very fact that you define my hatred or consideration of the menuvalim as inferior “completely counter to everything Jewish.” says to me that sadly Hocker is right. Try spending a few years studying our Torah under the guidance of one of our Torah giants. You will then see that we are the only upholders of decency and a genuinely tolerant people.
“For that you should be ashamed.” No my friend for that you are called shameful.
Shazam: the G’Mara in Sanhedrin on daf nun-ches discusses the issue