58 Responses

1. It says in Mesechtas Avoda Zara in the Gemara that those who live in Chutz Laaretz are like serving Avoda Zara in Purity.. So it could very well be that eventhough the “zionists” did so much wrong.. they were still more pure that those living in chutz laaretz..

   There is a chazal that states that living in EY is the equivalent of doing all the mitzvos. How can ppl who don’t do all the mitzvos cry out like this? How can they claim to be so much better when they don’t perform all the mitzvos?

   The Chazon Ish ZTL stated that living in EY is something that EVERY jew should aspire to and if they can’t they should at least make visits to keep up their aspirations of eventually moving to the Holy land.

   There is still kedusha even if the government has problems. To think that these ppl want to take away a state that has enabled many yidden to learn and live Torah.. Granted that they have many problems.. but so do Satmar. That is why I do not eat anything with Satmar Hechsher. They don’t see that everything is from Hash-m and that we have an oppurtunity to daven at the Mekomos Hakedoshim etc etc and their actions are endangering this ..
   SHAME SHAME SHAME

2. SICK!!!

3. What a Chillul Hashem.

4. Which faction of Satmar is this?

5. Interestingly enough, in this weeks parsha the Torah talks about how EY spits out those who are not doing ratzon Hash-m. Maybe the fact that Hash-m is keeping the Jews here shows that on some level they are doing ratzon Hash-m since they aren’t being spit out.

6. my mind heart and soul is profoundly torn in half. i am very confused. i don’t feel good.

7. Like crazy I’d ever pray for that anti-semite! I pray he is run out of town back to his Muslim roots.

   What shocks me is Rabbi Niderman. I would never have guessed he would do such a thing. Just watch the $ from UJA etc dry up. But then again, Satmar will now get millions from Obama.

   Is this political prostitution? Remember this next time official Satmar collectors knock on YOUR door.

8. TRUTH TRUTH & MORE TRUTH.
   Just returned from the rally in support of Israel’s right to build in its country without permission from Barack Husseim, there were about 75 in number at the high period of misquided Chassidim counter demonstrating to close to 5000 individuals.

9. Tamid einei Hashem Elokecha bah mereishis hashana vead acharis hashana. The Shechina still resides on Har Habayis, the land the avos hakedoshim walked the length and breadth, Moshe Rabeinu davened 515 prayers to be allowed in, eretz chemda tova urchava, Tnach, Talmud, Zohar, the Rishonim constantly speak of the beauty of arzteinu hakedosha, Eretz Yisrael and this bunch of sonei Yisrael who have a problem with a corrupt government speak about it like filth and endanger bnei Yisrael.
   Achrei Mos mentions Hashochen itam besoch tumosam, Hashem dwell with us even with our tumah.
   Those who hate eretz yisrael will find any excuse to malign it, always, of course, for noble reasons. If your child gets dirty you clean him up, you don’t go to your child’s enemies and speak about his filth!
   The kedoshim of the past were so careful to only praise Eretz Yisrael and it’s produce, Tzaddikim have risked their lives to walk 4 amos on its dust, and they speak bad?
   The meraglim thought they were doing so well speaking lousy of eretz Yisrael because of course they wanted to learn in the desert, guess what? Hakadosh Baruch Hu didn’t think so. They died an agonizing death and the punishment for Yisrael was worse than the eigel, only the meraglim managed to make sure none of that generation went to Eretz Yisrael.
   If that was the decree of the meraglim who spoke of a time when the land was filled with the 7 nations, imagine what lies in store for this lot. It seems to be fashionable to insult Israel, Goldstone did it, the arabs do it, in fact all the reshaim of the world do it. If anything at least don’t insult Israel to not go bechukas hagoy.
   Ohavei Hashem Shaarei Tzion micol mishkenos yaakov, the lovers of Eretz Yisrael will always see it beauty, its haters will always find filth.
   No wonder the Shechina is in pain, for Yaakov Avinu the land excitedly came to meet him, and now they insult it from edom, ve’alu moshiim behar Tzion lispot es har eisav, vehaisa LaHahem hamelucha

10. What is frustrating to me is that this was done by Rabbi Niderman, who is a ba’al chesed of epic proportions! When we needed the UJO’s assistance in regard to immigration advice, we were welcomed with open arms by the UJO, even though we are litvish, and lived in Flatbush at the time.

11. Im very disappointed and shocked. A couple of weeks ago the Mishpacha magazine had a lenghty article about this guy (I say guy because he doesnt delerve the title Rabbi) Niederman. They went on and on about what he does and how he influences young people that stryed from the proper derech amongst other things. After watching this video, all I can say is that he is saying a prayer for the same Obama that wouldn’t mind wiping the entire Williamsburg or for that matter any other Jewish community off the face of the map. It has nothing to do with Eretz Yisroel. He is a Muslim and will always be a Muslim and will always hate Jews no matter where they may be. You say a prayer for Obama today, and next year (if Moshiach is not heere before then)he may be expelling all Jews from the United States. He should really be ashamed of himself. Sounds like he joined the Neturai Karta. When will hug Adimejad?

12. #10 — That ought to make you realize these people have a point.

13. #11 — Jews are OBLIGATED to respect and indeed pray for the welfare of the leader of their host country.

14. what a liar.
    “as it is recited in all synagogues throughout the world.”
    i’ve never heard that prayer in any Shul, not even Satmar. Not for Barack H. Obama, and not for any other president.
    he just made it up to look good in the media.

15. #11 – “Obama that wouldn’t mind wiping the entire Williamsburg or for that matter any other Jewish community off the face of the map”
    Really? Do you honestly believe that Obama wishes to ensure that there are no jews on this earth? Are you accusing the president of the United States of America of wanting to wipe the jews off the face of the earth?

    This is an extraordinarily serious accusation, and therefore, requires some proof. So I challenge you – show me one quote from Obama that shows any antisemitism at all, forget a diabolical desire to exterminate us all.
    (Not that Obama is anti-Israel – that has unfortunately been made crystal clear by Obama. But there is a massive difference between wanting Israel to make impractical and dangerous concessions in the name of “peace” and the blatant and vicious anti-semitism of which Obama stands accused by comment #11)

16. A) We are commanded to pray for the welfare of the state in which we live in and for its government. This means, for those who reside in this Medina Shel Chessed, the United States, and not the State of Israel.

    B) As all you lamdanim surely know the maamar ChaZa”L in Avos, “Lulei Horaas Malchus, Ish Es Rei’eihu Chayim Bila’uhu”, Were it not for the rule of law (of government), man would eat alive his fellow man.

    C) No Satmar, non-Zionists, nor NK wackos (nor any others I’ve heard of) have anything negative to say about the land. The Meraglim have nothing to do with this, and it is pure sheker and deception to imply as such.

    D) The quotes about striving to live in Eretz Yisrael are all very nice, but there are many prominent rabbanim and others who personally continue to reside outside Eretz Yisrael, and many, even those whose shuls say the “reishis tzemichas geulaseinu” prayer for the State of Israel, who, if asked, will also advise people, to specifically not move to Eretz Yisrael for various reasons.

    E) Nowhere in my Torah does it say to pray for the State of Israel. The State of Israel happens to be responsible for the security of its millions of Jews who live there. That does not in any way reflect on the halachic legitimacy of the State in any way, but is rather a simple reflection of reality of the facts on the ground as they are.

    F) (re: 5) That Hashem has not fulfilled viLos Saki HaAretz Eschem is a chesed and not a reflection on what does or does not go on there, and is certainly not a reflection on Zionism as a whole or the State of Israel in particular.

17. Unfortunately a lot of our brothers are confuzed.

    There is no contradiction between protesting against Israel’s wrong doing and at the same time protesting against Obama’s obsured foreign policies.

    Just because we were against the Marcsists and Bulshvikes doesn’t mean we have to embrase Hitler Yms”v. and just because the Jews were wrong for going to Achashveirosh’s party and deserve the decree, doesn’t mean we have to pray for Haman and Achashveirosh to be succesful. They’re still acting as enemies of Klal Yisroel, with no justification.

18. Do they actually recite a prayer for the President in any off the Satmar minyonim?

19. Sinas Chinam never left us. Will we ever learn??

20. To # 15 (mw13)
    My opinion on Obama’s policies is pointless, everyone has their opinions, and I don’t believe anyone is going to change because of reading comments on this site.
    In response to what you said about Obama being anti-Israel, but not an Anti-Semite, let me quote from Dr Martin Luther King Jr as to whether one can separate those 2 ideas,
    “. . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely ‘anti-Zionist.’ And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God’s green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews–this is God’s own truth. “Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.”
    Seems like Dr King would agree that being Anti-Israel would indeed make Obama an Anti-Semite

21. What I disliked the most was how they are brainwashing the innocent children to mindlessly follow in their ways. It is sickening to see 13 year old boys clapping and booing at the appropriate moments.
    This is not a rant against Satmar, but against this particular strain.
    Parenthetically, to no. 14, that blessing is commonly recited in the UK for the Queen and the Royal Family. However, I am unaware of it being said in the US.

22. #20 Anti-Zionism is a far cry from antisemitism. In fact Torah Jewry itself is anti-Zionist.

    #21 That prayer is not exclusive to the UK. It is in fact recited across the US.

23. Noone should be saying anything bad about this rav.

24. to HaKatan # 16: Point C, I truly believe that someone who truly loves Eretz Yisrael will have nothing bad to say about it. By all means, denigrate the idiots who play government, but don’t mention Israel in the same context. To say for example that Williamsburg is a disgusting area, even though you may be referring to crime rate will cause certain people to errupt.
    Shabbos is the prime kedusha in time and Eretz Yisrael is the prime kedusha in space. It’s obvious that the more you prepare for Shabbos the more you appreciate it, and similarly the more you prepare for Eretz Yisrael the more you can experience the sublime beauty. The meraglim were not insulting the soil or fruit but the concept of Eretz Yisrael, these people seem to be doing the same thing. They both use screaming in public to get their sordid point across, they both have huge respect for the leading goyim but no pride or belief in Yisrael, they’re both quite happy to stay far away from Eretz Yisrael as long as they can keep their religious beliefs where they are now. I guess only time will tell how this will end. We’re supposed to go hatzne’a leches im Elohecha and I fail to see making giant rallies against Israel is anything like that.

25. #22 We are speaking about the accepted fact of global society which is:
    ZIONISM = JUDAISM
    JUDAISM = ZIONISM

    Quite frankly the opinion or POV of Torah Jewry which unfortunately is less than 10% of the 1% of Jews in the world is all out meaningless.

26. #25 Your equation is incorrect on all accounts.

27. I’m not sure what everyone’s getting all excited about. They were clearly expressing the Satmar Rov Zt”l’s “shita”, that it is forbidden by the Tora to have a “Jewish State” before Moshi’ach. Therefore, he explained, he’s calling it the “so-called” State of Israel.

28. To# Volvie,
    you are the one that is WRONG IN ALL COUNTS!!!!
    Being a Torah Jew does not mean that one has to be an anti-zionist, most anti-zionist that are “Religious” are not Torah Jews. You need to really learn Torah before you open your mouth with nonesense.

29. #24 thanks for you pilpul shel havel.1st that ‘sordid’ point was pointed out by most holy tzaddikum.2nd they dont protest eretz hakdoshe they protest …learn the ‘vayoel moshe’ ‘al hageulah v’al hatmureh’. rubeh derubah posters say their opinions ,we’ll opinions are not torah. if you learn kol hatorah and bekdushe v’taharah then you have siatte desmayeh ‘lasike shametese alibe d’hichese’. because if you know the whole torah and your a genius, if its not b’kdushe v’tahara like the holy divrei youel etc. its not b’gader ‘sod hashem l’reive…’ so your personel views that comes to you by your feelings or what the AIPAC,, AJC, ‘JEWISH” Federation etc who are mostly desecraters of the torah, with noshim nochrious etc,thats where you get your un-dass torah

30. Wow! Is there a more warped group anywhere??

    Btw, Rabbi N may be a nice guy, as are “most” Satmar chassidim, probably. That has nothing to do with the fact that they just made a chilul Hashem, a litzonis of themselves, clapping and cheering in the middle of the “prayer” is simply foolish and on and on and on.

    I respect their feelings and beliefs, but keep it to yourself.

    I love the way the guy speaks about supporting your local government, yet when when it comes to the Israeli government who guard and $upport more Yidden than any other country, its phew!

31. Ah , Mr. Shimen.. with all due respect to the Satmar Rebbe.. he had no knowledge of the current state of affairs.. There is a pintele yid in every one and so much so that PM Netanyahus OWN daughter is Shomer Shabbos and even gave her child a bris..

    The Satmar Rebbe may have been right about the founding Zionists, but the country has changed sooo much since his sefer was written. Granted there are still many problems.

    The Bostoner Rebbe ZT”L also knew kol Hatorah Kulah.. but instead of hating them he chose to inspire them by being there for the IDF and sitting with the ppl of Gush Katif.. The Bostoner Rebbe chose to live a life of bringing these ppl back rather than spending his life hating them.
    He got up there and told the frum world to daven and learn in the zechus of the Soldiers.. These things change the hearts of those who are far from Torah.. not silly protests.. Guaranteed if you actually sat with the Satmar Rebbe he would agree that the country today is NOT the same as when the state was put together..

32. #30..and do you know the meaning of chillil hashem.?.what, when, and where? if you dont like something or get enmbarresed by something that is against YOUR personal hashkafa that is not chillil hashem

33. Ah, when you are malshining an entire country that has many many Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos.. THAT is a CHILLUL HASHEM!

34. In all fairness I believe that this article is very biased as well as some of the commentators (and I say this being someone that doesn’t agree with their views).

    1) Quote: >>>He is joined by thousands of Satmar Chassidim as they “vigorously demonstrate” the “so called State Of Israel”.

    “Vigorously Demonstrate”? That’s kind of an exaggeration.

    2) Quote: >>> “reciting a Hebrew blessing (in English) for U.S. president Barak Obama”.

    What’s wrong with that?! Chazal instituted that tefilah and as far as I am aware they did not make it conditional to whether you liked the ruler or not.

    3) Quote: >>> “NOTE: This video was filmed a few months ago in Manhattan”

    Wouldn’t it be appropriate to understand the circumstances that they were protesting? Perhaps they were protesting the Chillul Shabbos going on here?!

    4) It has been Satmar’s political stance to be against a Jewish state since Rav Yoel, ztl. This is not the personal view of Rabbi David Niderman, but rather a view that they ALL are mikabel from their Rebbe. We can disagree and argue with them, but it’s not like they don’t have on who they are relying on.

    5) As everyone can see the video is spliced taking bits and pieces that highlight the event. That surely can cause distortions of what happened. It’s very possible that we would view their protest differently if we were there (not to say that we’d agree with them).

    #1 frumimaof3 – Quote: >>> “It says in Mesechtas Avoda Zara in the Gemara that those who live in Chutz Laaretz are like serving Avoda Zara in Purity.. So it could very well be that eventhough the “zionists” did so much wrong.. they were still more pure that those living in chutz laaretz..

    There is a chazal that states that living in EY is the equivalent of doing all the mitzvos. How can ppl who don’t do all the mitzvos cry out like this? How can they claim to be so much better when they don’t perform all the mitzvos?”

    It’s had for me to believe that people can lack the ability to analyze maamarim Chazal. Don’t you think that it is just a little difficult to believe that it is better to be a Rasha living in Israel, like Shlomit Aloni who tried to uproot the study of Tanach in Public school and have MANDATORY study of the Koran, then to be a Reb Moshe Feinstein in NY? Are you serious?! Are you out of your mind?!?!?!?!

35. Okay, my point wasn’t well written .. but my point was that we really don’t know what is going on in the heads of the people in the Israeli goverment.. And R’ Moshe Feinstein and other Gedolim are an anomaly. Not every person in the Government is a Shulamit Aloni or Tzipi Livni.. Come on.. And I guarantee that R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT’L probably would have been soo much greater had he been in EY.. Moshiach would have probably been here a long time ago.. I guarantee R’ Moshe Feinstein would agree with the Chazal wholeheartedly..

    And there is an Avoda Zara that those in Chutz Laaretz are worshipping..

    Do you know how many ppl have come back to Torah since the beginnings of the State??? Probably many many more than those that were driven off the derech..

36. #31 its more likely to state, you dont know who the satmare rebbe was…what ever you know, knew about medinas yisroel lhavdil he new 10 fold more. he was more aware of world situation and understood it better then you will ever. ‘soid hashem lireiov’. this a concept you dont understand and if yes probably dont believe in

37. #31 please kvodo bimkomo omades, bostener rebbe zt’l was a adam gadol ehrlicher yid but please…..ok, what are your credentials..that you have the chutzpah to say ‘.. he had no knowledge…’you knew him so well that you can say he ‘ had no knowledge…

38. Tell me , how does someone who was niftar in 1979 know what is going to happen in 2010? There is no such thing as Nevua anymore..

    I don’t have credentials of a Rav or anything. Just someone who is a bit frustrated that there is actually a group of “frum” yidden who think that they are doing a mitzva by badmouthing a country that is full of Torah yidden without thinking of the consequences????

    How about protesting in a way that inspires yidden to Torah instead of protesting like this??? That would be the BEST protest against the “evil” medina.

39. To Dwell in the Palace (pg 30 , Feldheim) ” For the Torah Community to fall into the trap of equating Zion with Zionism , and avoid the tremendous mitzva involved because it appears blemished,is a great tragedy.

    Ben Gurion once said that if the Knesset votes Shabbos Observance , he would observe it as law of the land. Would there be justification for us to cease observing Shabbos because the Zionists were observing it for the wrong reason and in a distorted fashion???” This was written by Rabbi Zev Leff.

40. to the one who signs ‘frumimaof3’. i like the way you come and have a pilpul with these giants of torah avodah etc. and little pea size brain understands better then these 2 giants, the satmarer rebbe , the igros moshe.you say the igros moshe ‘would agree with chazal whole heartedly…’ WHAT CHUTZPAH to talk like that, as if the holy igros moshe doesnt agree with them only 1/2 heartedly’ you think you do you understand mamrei chazl.you think they are interperated so litererly without agadas meharsha etc, etc, .do you know that the mamar ‘kol hador bechtz lartz keilu ein lo elokay’ refers to when the bais hamikdosh bimchono and the avoda is in procsess’ and not when its being run by koifre torah whether its shulamit aloni or other haters of riboni shel oilom and his torah, who encourage and passed laws so yiddishe kinder should mingel with yishmaels and others and become assimilated …see meforshim which the defrei yoel brings down. so ‘frum (?) ima of 3, a subject you are ignorant of dont add your 2 cents worth less

41. Come on.. I was giving the Gedolim the utmost respect.. but I am not going to sit there while “frum” ppl get up there and protest like idiots and possibly cause harm/deaths to those ppl living in EY..

    And Shulamith Aloni is 81 years old.. How you forget that Binyamin Nentanyahu has a son who just won an award for learning Tanach! Who also has a frum daughter who keeps shabbos !!

    YOU want to put Torah Jews who live here and think it is a MITZVAH to live here in danger..

    I am not putting down any Rav but I am trying to say that the followers are not acting appropriately. You can think whatever you want and believe whatever you want but when your actions can have severe consequences ..

    If this protest was so warranted by Torah Jews.. where is the whole Lakewood, etc etc etc..

42. Stop living in 1948 and wake up b/c it’s 2010!!

43. frumimaof3 – I’m not quick to agree with you on your last point, but the point is mute regardless being that the amount of Chozrim B’Teshuvah is despite the Government’s efforts to the contrary, not because of them.

    However, your statement “And I guarantee that R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT’L probably would have been soo much greater had he been in EY.. Moshiach would have probably been here a long time ago..” is supported by two sources. 1) Chazal state that if Moshe Rebenu went into E”Y there would not have been a Golus. 2) Reb Nachman of Breslov states that the mere visiting E”Y changes a person.

44. Doesn’t mean you should go and protest against them!

45. #35 ‘…stamere rebbe and rav feinstein and other gedolim were a anomaly’ now you really gave yourself away. what nerve! and which ‘gedolim’ do consider not anomaly. to add to your ignorance is of how we measure a gadol . ‘shakel moshe kechal yisrael’… moshe rabbainu was in substance as great kall yisroeltogether.so a tzaddik and posek hador you dont measure against just another gadol 1 on 1. so we say all other gedolim were anomaly to these holy tzaddikum . i’m curious which ‘gedolim’ are you comparing to these giants as you can say they are an anlomoly to them (your gedolim)nu, lomir heren

46. cont’d from #45 …#35 so lets deduct which gedolim’ you consider ‘gedolim’….. reform,conservative, centrist clergy.is nit da vos tzu redden and wont elaborate.MO ?same ..so from ehrliche shomrei torah bchol prutahu..which gedolim are you weighing as non anomaly in comparison to these giants…

47. FrumIma, Yasher Koach.

    The reason why the protest was so foolish, is that what is the alternative to Medinas Yisroel? We should go back to Poland and Germany where we were treated so royally during this Galus?

    We should ask our good friends Hamas to take over EY and promise not to send too many rockets and suicide bombers each day? We can of course negotiate what a fair number is.

    EY is the greatest gift the RBSH has given us in 2,000 years. Let us not be kefuyei tovah.

    These protests are simply to vent their frustration that the way things are going, the dire predictions of the anti-zionists have not come true, and the Medinah is indeed blossoming and bringing forth fruit both in ruchniyus and gashmiyus.

48. frumimaof3 – “…and “think” it is a MITZVAH to live here” What do you mean “THINK”? Who holds it’s not a mitzvah? Even Satmar live here.

    My understanding is that Reb Yoel held that we need to wait until Moshiach to have a Jewish government.

    We disagree with them about that point, but certainly all Hareidi Jews are against a Secular Jewish State. A secular Jewish State is certainly not congruent with Torah values, no ifs, ands, or buts about it!

49. Pashuteh Yid 2.0 – quote: >>> “These protests are simply to vent their frustration that the way things are going…”

    I would have to disagree with you on this. The reason for such protest are two:

    1) To bring about an awareness to the Gentile nations that the Israeli Government does not speak for all Jews. And that there are Jews that are opposed to many of their actions as well.

    2) As Rav A. Miller, ztl stated, the Israeli government is very influenced by American opinion, so it is proper to come out against the Israeli government when they enact crimes against their fellow religious brothers. (I certainly hope you are not foolish enough to believe that they don’t. If you are then perhaps you should talk to some Teemanim)

50. Right, we agree that we are against the founders of the Jewish state and the secularism of it. However, can these ppl be sure that TODAY’s Israeli gov’t are under the halacha of Apikorus that allow someone to be moser to a Goyish gov’t??? Did you all sit down and analyze each and every one ? Is there a halacha to differentiate between one individual and another. The left wing might be easier to decide, but the right wing is another story..

    I wrote “Think” b/c of the way these ppl are talking.. some won’t even step foot in EY.. etc etc..

    However, being that there are so many amenities funded by the state (mikvas, yeshivas, etc etc).. Are they really totally secular anymore aside from the far left?

51. Yeah, except it’s not so black and white that the gov’t is committing crimes against the Jews in EY. There is a side to say that the chareidim antagonize the gov’t just as much as they antagonize them..

    Don’t start quoting this Emanuel thing b/c that’s not so pashut.
    Separating kids for the chinuch benefits of one child could definetely hurt the other.. Funny how the beginner of BY , Sarah Schnerir A’H didn’t have those standards on the girls who were reading polisha novellas .. She took upon herself to teach jewish girls the love and living of Torah and she inspired those girls to give those things up.. THAT is something that I find striking from that whole thing.. Hard to say where the crimes are..
    B’H the parents in my elementary school weren’t like that or else I wouldn’t be the frum person that I am.. even if I still have things to learn.

    They could easily turn the situation into a Kiddush Hash-m but they chose not to. There are many versions of the whole thing.. so as any thing that goes on in this country between the religious and the gov’t.. I doubt the chareidim/religious are always little innocent flowers. Yet, I am not naive to think that the gov’t is so wonderful. I know that their problems are huge, but to pretend that the religious do nothing wrong to the point of possibly even turning Jews off from learning is also true.

52. #51 dont ever think your doing g-d a favor or anybody else by being frum.

53. frumimaof3 – quote:>>> “…can these ppl be sure that TODAY’s Israeli gov’t are under the halacha of Apikorus…”

    The younger generation of Israelis are very different than the first generations. That is true. However, the government, for the most part, is still run by people that are anti-Torah and in many cases even worse than the older generation. Ben-Gurion visited the Chazon Ish. Peres recently went to Ponevitch Yeshivah for a visit. Barkat, the mayor of Jerusalem who ran on the platform of fighting religious persuasion, would probably only do so if it were a cold day in hell! He unnecessarily decided to fight on the Shabbos parking issue when everybody else was trying to settle a compromise. So the answer is yes, they are apikorsim (although what you really mean to say is “mumar”. An Apikoris is a chochom that went off the derech. They are ignoramuses today.)

    quote: >>> “except it’s not so black and white that the gov’t is committing crimes against the Jews in EY”

    What are you talking about?! You’d have to be blind not to see that! Ask any Teemani!

    quote: >>> “There is a side to say that the chareidim antagonize the gov’t just as much as they antagonize them.. ”

    The point is moot. Two wrongs don’t make a right. We can’t say just because we need to do some self introspection, it is not right for us to stand up in protest when kids are kidnapped from their parents. In the late 80’s early 90’s the government was toying with the idea to put a cap on the number of Rabinical exemptions allow (the figure was somewhere between 300-500 Yeshivah students nation wide). Do you think Rav Shach should have said, “well what do you expect from them? After all, are we learning to our maximum abilities?”? If he would have there would be only 500 students in Israel today! (FYI – Rav Shach’s response was, “If you do so, we will pick ourselves up and move to America!” That stopped the idea in it’s tracks.)

    BTW – IT appears to me that you either live in America or in a community that is either Mizrachi or Chardal. Am I correct?

54. frumimaof3 – BTW: You should know that it is an Isur to defend Rashaim and it’s punishable. It would be worth your while to shift your “Love of the Israeli government” to “Love of your people”.

    I HATE this wicked government, but love my people very much, chilonim included!

55. Ah, I live in Eretz Yisreol and no I am not Chardal in the least.. I hate the LEFT but don’t hate the right wingers like parties like Gimmel (UTJ) and Agudah and Shas.. Doubt those parties would be considered apikorus..!

    As , Rabbi Zev Leff said.. it’s a tragedy to put a blemish on such a wonderful mitzvah..

    And, many would agree that they are probably Tinokei Shenishba..

    It’s so interesting that these ppl protest and forget the beginnings of the Jewish ppl.. Avraham, Sara, Leah and Rochel all came from Idol worshippers .. and you see how great tzaddikim they became.
    I am not defending the government in any way.. just not going to sit here and let these ppl be malshin us all and to make it seem like they are the spokes ppl for all of us.

56. Also, I love the Jewish ppl very much.. but I don’t love ppl like these Satmar who are being malshin all of us here in EY..

    I am just a bit more idealist that most charedim admit to being.

57. Oh Softwords, is Moshe Abutbul ,the mayor of Beit Shemesh a mumar also?? hmmmm…

58. Softwords – Just how do we know that the government is wicked? and it is likely that the people working are Tinukie SheNishba and thereby have the din of Achim, as opposed to the original founders of Zionist state. Which would mean that if we spoke against an individual in the Govmt unless they have an individual Cheskes Rishus, then it is Out right Loshon Hara and probably Motzi Shem Ra. Also Shimen do you know what “anomaly” means? The statement was actually a praise of the Gedolim. I think also we should remember why we are in Aveiluos during Sefira. Right now with all the crazy thing happening to Klal Yisroel during this time, maybe we should see this as a sign from Hashem to keep us focosed on our Ahavs Chinam which is why we are still in Galus.