21 Responses

1. it mite be better to get the Muslim community involved here since they also believe in very fast burial after death .

2. you could MENTION THAT IN THE LETTER THAT’ S WHAT I DID IE MUSLIMS AND JEWS BELIEVE THAT burial should be…etc

3. what are the facts of the case?

4. Tesvov, what facts are you looking for?

5. Baby was ill for about a week, fever, cold symptoms, lots of it going round at the moment and it takes a week or so to clear up, went up to give medinol Friday night to find baby odd colour, called Hatzolo but too late. One MRI Scan done but for some reason are insisting on another plus an autopsy I think if they get no results.

6. i agree with yossi and t.p, we should collaborate with the muslimin on this, it may bring the hatred between us down, and get people to take notice of the issue.

7. BORUCH DAYAN EMES
   Y ON EARTH SHOULD CORONER MAKE A FUSS I PERSONNALY NOW THIS FAMILY AND I CAN SAY HE FATHER IS A TZADDIK AND A LOVELEY GUY HE WOULD NEVER HARM A CHILD.
   NUMBER 3&4 U R BOTH RIGHT:
   3:TRUE WHATS THE DIFERNECE IT HAPPENED
   4: DONT BE SO ARROGANT PEOPLE LIKE KNOWING THE STORY.

   MAY THE CHILD BE A MALITZ YOISHER

   5 UNLESS YOU KNOW THE TRUE STORY DONT SAY THINGS.

8. “keep quiet” – you should take your own advice!

9. #7, please stop shouting.

10. Will Yeshiva World kindly post the e-mail address of ANY of the Askanim involved. Privacy of publicly airing details is important but a privately clear picture is needed.

11. #7 – this is what I was told by Belzer members of the community and by a very good friend of her sister. Do YOU know the exact details?! They are hoping for a levaya today still.

12. I believe the baby has now been released. more details later.

13. Artchill (No. 10),

    What are you trying to say in your second sentence? It is not at all clear.

14. The Kevura took place not long ago. Oif Simchas.

15. I was apppointed Her Majesty’s Coroner for Greater Manchester North in 2002. Before taking up my office I consulted with Rav O Westheim. My jurisdiction of 650,000 people includes the Borough of Bury and within that the kehillos of Prestwich and Whitefield.I am one of 115 or so full-time Coroners nationwide. The Coroner is wholly independent.
    I was greatly saddened to learn after Shabbos of the sudden and tragic death of baby Dresdner.
    I have always made myself available out of hours for the kehilloh and my contact number has been on the Beis Din Luach for many years.
    I was contacted by Rav Weiss last Monday evening and advised on both the law and practice in respect of an appeal against the decision of the Manchester City Coroner. There are Solicitors in Manchester who specialise in this area of law.
    Local Askonim-in particular Rav Shlomo Adler have worked tirelessly behind the scenes for many years both with Coroners, the NHS and Government departments with the result that the four Manchester Coroners offer MRI scanning for those within and beyond the kehilloh.Rav Adler is recognised nationally for his endeavours.There remains considerable opposition to the use of MRI scanning by Coroners outside Greater Manchester.
    The actions of certain misguided individuals in attempting to influence the Manchester Coroner have done incalculable harm to the wider kehilloh and amount in my view to a chillul hashem.
    Whenever a person dies in England/Wales in order for the death to be registered and then for a burial to take place either a medical certificate as to the cause of death has to be issued by a doctor who has attended the deceased during their last illness or the death has to be reported to the Coroner. Baby Dresdner died suddenly and no doctor was in the position to issue a certificate.
    The Manchester Coroner personally spoke to the family GP who confirmed he was unable to issue the death certificate. The Coroner agreed to conduct an MRI scan which took place on Sunday and thereafter personally spoke to the Consultant Radiologist on Sunday evening who was unable to offer a cause of death.The Coroner decided to authorise a post mortem to be conducted by a Specialist paediatric pathologist.
    A request was made on behalf of the family that the post mortem examination be delayed pending representations.The Coroner saw the representatives at 5.30 on Monday evening.
    Sadly the examination was delayed on Tuesday because the skeletal (x-ray) survey had not been carried out.
    It was wholly unacceptable for the Coroners wife and children to be distressed by the need for police protection outside their because of the planned demonstration by the kehilloh
    It was wholly unacceptable for the Coroner to be personally bombarded with over 600 emails which detracted from his ability to deal with the many other tragic deaths in his office.
    It is unacceptable for his staff to be called ‘anti-semites’
    It is unacceptable in an email for the Coroner’s actions to be described as ‘an attack on all Jews’
    It is unacceptable for a member of the kehilloh to purport to communicate as a solicitor and write to the Coroner ‘that in Jewish law a parent is punished by G-D for not burying a body on the same day it dies’
    The Manchester Coroner himself has written ‘Uniquely in England and Wales I and my colleagues locally will allow MRI scanning and this does not happen in other parts of the Country’
    The actions of many within the kehilloh in ignoring the advice given have severly affected the goodwill that has been bulit up over many years with the local Coroners
    I am always available to discuss and advise.

16. nelsonsr
    Dear Sir,
    Thank you for this clarification. How does one repair damage done? The original email asking for emails was signed by an askan who i think may be on the chevra kadisha. Thus, i and i presume many others assumed this was a clearly thought out decision by the chevra kadisha. I think the very nasty (for lack of a better word) e mails happened because people then sent out texts which didn’t have all the information inc the (unfortunately necessary it seems) request to be polite. What exactly was this demonstration? No-one I’ve spoken to has mentioned it. His poor family… Lastly, is it incorrect to ask if an autopsy actually took place in the end? On second thoughts, don’t answer that one either way, I’m concerned someone (if anyone is still reading this) will take it into their head to send nasty emails.
    Thank you for all the wonderful work it seems you do.

17. #16 has said EXACTLY what I wanted to say, I wonder if we’re related!

18. Unfortunately the tunnel vision of many in our kehillos who have little if any understanding of how UK legal procedures work, does harm on a regular basis to the work our genuine askonim do behind the scenes to try and ensure our genuine religious wishes are taken into account. Not every decision that is taken that runs against what we would like is caused by anti-semitism. The non Jewish world, does not run according to the Shulchan Oruch: period. We live in a medina shel chessed and that places responsibilities upon us to behave in a proper way. Maybe in Israel body snatching, demonstarting in the middle of the night in residential areas etc. etc. is considered civilised behaviour. In England it is not. Not only is it not but as nelsonsr said it seriously harms us.

19. #8 what do you mean
    #7 what do you mean

    bh he has been buried and i think we should all write an apology to the coroner for the benefit of every one and to

    #15 maby explain to us the proper laws and halochos to avoid this misunderstanding again

20. #19 – What more does anyone need to ask? When anyone passes away the UK authorities require that a cause of death be established. Most deaths are not sudden and can be certified by a Doctor who has seen the deceased in the period prior to his or her death. The posting from Her Majesty’s Coroner for Greater Manchester North clearly states that this was a sudden death for which the patient’s GP could not issue a medical certificate as to the cause of death. As is the accepted practice in the Greater Manchester area, but not in most other parts of the UK, an MRI scan was done which did not produce a conclusive cause of death. What option does anyone with the scantest knowledge of UK law think was open to the Coroner other than to continue to seek the cause of death? It also seems clear that part of the delay was caused by the fact that the family appealed against the Manchester City Coroner’s decision on the Monday to continue seeking a physical autopsy. No doubt the decision to appeal was made on Rabbinic advice but it is highly disingenuous to then blame the Coroner for the delay. Lest it appear that I am simply seeing this in a very cold hearted way, let me assure all the YWN readers that the opposite is the case. I know from experience the tremendous trauma that an infant death causes in a family. At such a time what is needed are nerves of steel and good, considered advice. Sending out emails to a UK public servant speaking of our requirements will only complicate the situation. That is the lesson that should be learned in case there is chas veshalom such a case again.

21. I live in England… I am a Rov in a small town… we have had meetings with our coroner in the past… at the end of the day they will follow the law and no amount of demonstration or emails will change that. It may be in the USA “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” but over here arrogance and superiority gets you nowhere. I also had a case where a well-meaning “askan” decided to press the local coroner. All it accomplished was annoying them more. There attitude was they treat all equally with equal respect. Whilst I may wish we had more privileges etc. I can’t fault their well-meaning attitude and I try to work with them. At the end of the day if an autopsy is performed it’s not down to the yidden it’s down to the goyishe authorities, so our hands are “clean” however sad it is. All this talk of protest is nonesense. Over here you accomplish things by building bridges. Note for next time – please do NOT tell the whole world to email the coroners!