33 Responses

1. Neither email for Alex Sink works.

2. We don’t condone Murder – of course we don’t, and in this weeks Sedra the Torah says ‘Nokoim Yinokeim’ a murder must be avenged and when we address the decision makers we must make this clear, however we are pleading for his life to be spared because he has shown true remorse for his action comitted under mitigating circumstances. This is no excuse of course but we should ask for their extra compassion in this case, and just ask they have compassion on him, may G-D have compassion on them. Remember to keep it very respectful. I called the governors office the other day and spoke to his aide. She heard me out and said she would pass it on! waste of time? hopefully not, but maybe the best course of action is to copy an email to all the contacts above and/or fax and THEN call. Hatzlocha Rabboh, Besuras Toivois

3. These 2 addresses failed – can anyone given us the correct address?

   [email protected]

   [email protected]

4. Yeshiva World, can’t you get the email addresses right:

   Info@AlexSinkFlorida has no dot ending to it, and [email protected] is incorrect!

   Get it right if you believe in this is an urgent cause.

5. My email to [email protected] was deleted without being read on Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:09:13 -0500

6. This letter was sent to the governor

   Dear Governor Crist

   A mans life is precious beyond words and under Jewish law saving a life precedes almost all commandments. Our Holy Sabbath and Holidays and even Yom Kippur get pushed aside when it comes to saving a life.

   As a Jewish Rabbi located in NY, I pondered whether Martin Grossman deserves to live, for under Jewish law, when one kills someone with a full and clear mind, he’d be subjected to the death penalty and to convince a government to save someone like that, would go against the fundamentals of Judaism. I therefore pushed off writing to you.

   However after reviewing this particular case and from reading and hearing all about Martin Grossman and his upbringing and past, I’ve realized, that not only was he unstable and under the influence of drugs, but he was also brought up in an unstable environment and in no way did he understand the importance and preciousness to a persons life and should not and would not be judged under the same category as a person with a full clear mind and would therefore under no credible justice system be liable to the death penalty.

   The death penalty serves mainly 2 purposes, 1) PUNISHMENT Pay back, meaning; what you did to someone else you should feel yourself 2) preventive measures, meaning; to prevent the killer and others from committing such a horrible heinous crime.

   These 2 reasons do NOT apply to Martin Grossman, as was previously mentioned. #1 doesn’t apply, because when a person does an action under an influence, whether it’s fame, money, or desire, one can argue, that lust isn’t an excuse and as people with brains and the ability to make decisions, we must live up to our actions and if not, face the consequences. However in the case of Martin Grossman, who was under the influence of drugs, which to an extent block a persons brain, how in anyone’s right mind could he judge someone like that with the same consequences as a clear minded person and therefore I feel that killing Martin Grossman wouldn’t match his incompetent action, #2 surely doesn’t apply, as a person under the influence doesn’t need measures to prevent him from repeating such a crime as the influence was the cause, not the his clear minded decision to kill another human being.
   Please make the right decision and don’t let another mans life be taken away.

7. I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH SOMEONE IN THE FRUM COMUNNNITY IN MIAMI. THEY NEVER HEARD OF THIS

8. You can contact Alex Sink here: http://www.myfloridacfo.com/askFLDFS/
   bear in mind that Alex Sink is a woman, so don’t write Dear Mr. Sink!

9. #4 Your argument disproves itself because once a drug abuser always a drug abuser.

   So he will almost certainly, return to drugs and then be under the influence, to kill again.

10. Does anybody reading this have a connection with any Gedolim who can be asked to daven specifically to overturn this decree for this Yid?

11. Excellent argument against the death penalty. Strange how you’ll never hear them on YWN when the murderer to be executed is a goy.

12. akuperma, and that’s simply because we don’t run around the world saving everybody. Here is a brother who is in trouble, and we are mobilized to help him. Does helping a Yid really get you mad?

13. #4: “As a Jewish Rabbi” – is there any other kind?

14. #6 – Thank You, but too late, I already wrote Mr sink Oh dear. I shall re-write

15. #7 your comment in this case can be tantomount to murder. Drug addiction is a behavior and all behaviors can be changed. It takes an incredible amount of hard work, support, and reconnecting to spirituality, but it can and has been done by countless people. I am aware of frum individuals who are in varios stages of recovery. Several of whom have been clean of drugs for decades. It’s obvious from your comment that you don’t believe a drug addict could be a person of value. However, please know that this comes from a place of ignorance or naïveté. Here are just two examples of people in the frum world who have recovered from their addictions and have gone on to lead meaningful lives. One individual
    is a maggid Rosh Chabura in a large makom Torah. Another, is a father and grandfather whose children and grandchildren who go to some of our finest mosdos, seminaries, and kollels. Be careful not to judge people and know that it can happen to people who run in your circles.

16. Governor Charlie Crist.
    State of Florida
    The Capitol
    400 S. Monroe St.
    Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001
    Fax: (850) 487-0801
    Feb. 10, ‘10
    Honorable Governor,

    I am sure that I am only one of many thousands of people pleading to you on behalf of Mr. Grossman. I am also sure that an Honorable Governor holding such a high ranking and risky job, at some point, locks himself into a room without any influences other than him and his creator, and says:
    “Creator of the universe, this is Charlie, your servant pleading to you from the depth of my heart, I was given the responsibility of deciding the life of a human being.
    On one hand he committed a terrible crime, that is irreversible, on the other hand, is this the man that committed the crime twenty-six years ago? Will I be able to live with myself at my old age when my thoughts might haunt me, I might have ended the life of an innocent man that could have still had a fruitful life and might have brought beautiful generations to this world after changing like he did? Am I really much different than him at this point? Only that I am the governor and nobody knows if I am honest other than you my creator. Would I think the same if it were I? Please creator of all, save me from making an irreversible move I might regret and never forgive myself for, and all my so-called good advisers and friends won’t be there to help me. And I also must take into account, if he sinned what did his family and the numerous people crying for him sin, of them the greatest symbols of humanity?

    Honorable Governor,

    Please understand the numerous people begging you to grant a Jewish man his life, not because they are selfish to others, heaven forbid, there is a practical reason, the nature of the Jewish people is to admit when they do wrong and they have the power of changing from one extreme to another. I am sure Ms. Parks sees the truth of his regret from heaven, and forgives him whole heartedly. Maybe it would be advisable he should come up with a sum of money that will somewhat comfort the broken family and he should be sent to a foreign country (perhaps Israel), to live a new righteous life, that will be a sample for all mankind how far a man can change. The Almighty already forgave him; Ms. Parks already forgave him, now it’s your turn.
    Dear Governor;
    I wrote these touching lines as if I were you, please consider it as if you were he.

17. To “hereorthere” (no. 7): Sadly, I think that you’re more “there” than “here.” No one is asking that Martin Grossman be freed. The plea is that his life be spared and that his sentence be reduced to life imprisonment. I hardly think that he’s going to “return to drugs and then be under the influence to kill again” while in jail.

18. Oh no, akuperma. It’s obvious that the Yidden no longer support the Death Penalty for anybody. I expect the same outcry before any execution, no matter what the religion of the prisoner.

19. I signed the petition because my daughter asked me to. However, I don’t know if I did the right thing. Are we trying to say here, that killers under the influence of drugs should be spared? That is what some of you are saying. Spare him because he did not comprehend what he was doing because of the drugs. Would we say the same thing if the victim was our own flesh and blood? Or not a jew? I don’t think so.

    Since when do we show mercy to killers? All killers are either under the influence or crazy at that time. A sane person wouldn’t kill or do a violent crime. So let them all off the hook! As you can see I am very torn and would not have signed the petition if not for my daughter’s request on behalf of her school and teacher. But this is insane.

    At least I have shown and been honest with my mixed feelings in this matter. But some here are applying a double standard. All murderers should be hung. All of them. No mercy. You can find an excuse for everyone of the. They all have families, have found G-D and religion, are under drugs or drunk. You name the excuse.

    WE wouldn’t show mercy if he wasn’t jewish or the victim was one of our own. We are hypocrites. I don’t know if I would sign this if asked again. This campaign is shameful. Then again….

    Torn,

    ASW

20. To #15 Are you a paskening Rav that you can accuse me of practically committing murder?

    Please no Halachic quotes, since anyone can make them.

    Just answer my direct question;

    Are you a paskening Rav with the smicha and full Halachic authority to pasken that way about me?

    If not then perhaps you should ask a rav about the laws of Richilus and Loshon Hara and Motzi Shem-Ra (which ever, applies here) before you say things in public.

    And #15 and #17 Very few people ever get off drugs.
    I personally know people who have been addicted to drugs and they tell me that it is an incredibly hard battle on a daily basis and it never gets any easier.

    This guy is said to have a very low IQ and thus it does not seem not too likely, he will ever have the capacity for such will power on a daily basis, for the rest of his life, without ever going back to drugs.

    Further, who says he wasn’t violent before the drugs?

    In the case of Shawn Bell in New York who tried to ram the cops with his car and they shot him dead they also made him out like he was an “A student” and such a nice guy who would never do what he obviously did.

    They said the same thing about the 4 thugs shot by Bernard Goetz and yet the only one of them that was never involved in more rapes and robberies after that, was the one he put permanently into a wheelchair.

    What will you two say to the extended members of a Jewish family, that G-d forbid gets wiped out by some gang member, who should have recieved the Death Penalty, but had their sentance commuted to life inprisonment without possibility of parole but some bleeding heart or corrupt official, found an excuse to let him out anyway (and this has actually happened more then once)?

    What will you say when you have spared a guilty person and helped set a precedent against the Death Penalty which then later on gets other Jews murdered and those murdered Jews really were innocent?

    What will you say then?
    What will be your excuse?

21. #19 I fully agree with you and you have reminded me of something I learned in Yeshivah when learning Tanya (By the Alter Rebbe; The first Lubavitcher Rebbe).

    In one section I remember learning that no one commits any Averia unless a Ruach Shtus enters his head.

    And in another Shiur I remember learning about Amalek, that Amalek means doubt that Amalek doubted G-d even with all the open miracles going on and everytime someone does something wrong, it is because they had doubt or to out it another way, a bit of Amalek in them at the time.

    So if everyone who does anything wrong is a bit crazy according to seforim and we cannot punish those who are “crazy” because they supposedly do not know what they are doing then no one can ever be punished for anything.

    That would mean that the Sanhedren could not even give the death penalty not even once in 10,000 years, let alone “once in 70 years”.

    They would not even ever be allowed to give lashes to anyone for any reason at any time.

22. Honorable Governor Crist:

    In March of 1981, Rabbi Moses Feinstein received a request from then President Ronald Reagan to share the Torah viewpoint on capital punishment.

    Rabbi Feinstein writes:

    “Firstly, let me offer my feelings of love and reverence to the Prince of the Country in the matter that he wants to know the view of the Torah that was given by G-d, may He be blessed, through our teacher Moses, explained through the Oral Torah, that was handed down from the Sages of each generation to the Sages of the next generation, until it was transcribed in the Talmud and the Poskim (Deciders of Law), Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch and elsewhere, which is the True Knowledge; and also that the Prince of the Country has faith in me that I am able to respond accurately and properly…”

    Rabbi Feinstein goes on to explain to the President that the Torah provides capital punishment for sins such as murder, kidnapping, certain types of sexual promiscuity, and the worship of the sun, the moon, trees, and rocks, etc., because such behavior leads to a general breakdown of morality. The reason for capital punishment, explains Rabbi Feinstein, is neither out of hatred for the sinner nor as a way to “save the world.” The reason, quite simply, that the Torah prescribes the death penalty for certain sins is in order to emphasize the gravity of the crime.

    Capital punishment per se is not a great deterrent. How could a dust-and-cobweb-covered electric chair be a deterrent?! Reality is that in the overwhelming majority of cases the perpetrator was not executed. The Torah is describing these violations as being so totally beyond acceptability that the sinner deserves, at least in theory, to die. The Torah wants us to understand what terrible crimes murder and kidnapping are. These crimes are totally unacceptable.

    On the other hand, the Torah places a great emphasis on the value of human life. Only certain members of the Sanhedrin – (def. the supreme judicial and ecclesiastical council of ancient Jerusalem) were specifically ordained for judging capital punishment. These members needed to be giants in the wisdom of Torah and also very knowledgeable in other fields (such as: astrology, medicine, music, etc.). They should be humble, have fear of the A-mighty, hate money, love truth, be beloved by people because of their good deeds and humility. They had to have a pleasant personality, excellent interpersonal relationships and a sterling reputation. They needed to be merciful and compassionate, because of this requirement they could not be very old because he could have forgotten the difficulties of child rearing, he could also not be childless, because perhaps he could be missing mercy and compassion and he will be more angry at the perpetrator than necessary. From these giants and very lofty people, they can only sentence when they were 23 men together. In addition, in front of them sat 3 rows of people also great giants in Torah wisdoms, only not yet at the level of the Sanhedrin but very close to it. This was a tremendous prevention not to err in sentencing because, when the 3 rows of men will think that perhaps they are sentencing in error they will quiet the speaker so that nobody can hear his words.

    Also, it was not possible to sentence from the worst incriminating circumstantial evidence, only explicitly through 2 actual eye witnesses. The eye witnesses had to be totally unbiased, and definitely not such that were promised clemency or leniency in order to be an eye witness against another. Only after the eye witnesses were warned against false testimony in general, and the severity of capital punishment would their testimony be accepted. Additionally, the accused needed to be warned against the severity of the crime, he had to respond his awareness and commit the crime anyway.

    Rabbi Feinstein makes it very clear that in practice, capital punishment was almost never carried out. He writes that our People refrained from carrying out capital punishment even in those countries that might have allowed us to do it.

    It is important to point out that Rabbi Feinstein added a disclaimer that all this applies only when murder, etc. isn’t rampant. However, when there is an epidemic of these types of behavior, society must take more drastic measures to set an example.

    Signed with A blessing to the president you should be able to lead the nation with righteousness, fairness, and with correct judgment all your days. Your name shall be honored in the United States of America.

    The one who blesses you,

    Rabbi Moses Feinstein

    It seems pretty clear, in my humble opinion, that G-d never meant for people to be executed when violating these Commandments. In fact, the Talmud tells us that when non-observance became rampant, the Sages voluntarily disqualified themselves from adjudicating capital cases. They feared that they would be forced to start killing people, an option that was unthinkable. The idea was to send a message to those who considered taking liberties with Jewish Law.

    The message is that G-d takes His Torah very seriously, and expects us to do the same.

    Mr. Martin Grossman scheduled for execution on February 16, 2010 was a mere teenager at the time of the crime. He is not a serial killer nor a menace to society at this time.

    Honorary Governor, do you actually feel to any degree of the high and lofty level of the ancient Sanhedrin? Does your conscience really permit you to proceed with the execution order? Can we appeal to your kindness, mercy, and compassion? It is entirely in your power to rescind the execution of Martin Grossman.

    In the merit of granting the gift of life to another human being, may G-d grant you and yours a life of tranquility and success.

23. 16, you write that Ms. Parks (Park?) forgave him. What do you mean by that?

    If anyone is moved to write a letter, please be concise, and if you are in any doubt about the propriety of the nusach, have it vetted by a responsible representative of one of the organizations sponsoring this drive.

24. Not just forgives him, but forgives him “wholeheartedly.” Who knew the dead could send those kind of messages?

    FWIW, her mother does not. She’s been quite anxious to have this execution finally take place. She petitioned Jeb Bush to do so, and is very much hoping it happens as scheduled.

25. The Governors phone and fax numbers are ‘chronically busy’. here is the phone and fax number for his senate campaign headquarters (He is running for Senate):

    Phone: 850-907-1218
    Fax: 850-907-1219

26. #6:

    “As a Jewish Rabbi located in NY”

    Just what other kinds of rabbi are there? Buddhist rabbis? Amish rabbis, perhaps?

    [If ever there was a case for increased secular education #6 has just proved it.]

27. Is there someone here who can provide a contact with the people that are taking care of this case first-hand? Thank you a lot.

28. This has nothing to do with the fact that we are for the death penalty. the fact is that a gentile court is not authorized (acc. to the torah) to kill a yid, and certainly when the victim was an aino yehudi. all the arguments about the hypocrisy of us asking for him not to be killed do not alter the clear torah law that Mr. grossman cannot be killed in this manner. This is elementary talmudic law.
    so, as long as there is a jewish life to be saved, let’s take action, and not be ovair “lo saamod al dam reiacha”.

29. #28 — I think you are the first poster on this site since this whole issue came up, with all the various stories, that correctly pointed out how the Torah views this situation.

    In that al pi din a) a Noachide (secular) court does not have jurisdiction over a yehudi, b) a Noachide (secular) court does not have authority to impose misa on a yehudi, c) without 2 witnesses who provided warning beforehand there is no death penalty and d) a yehudi is not chayiv misa under any circumstance for rotzeach of a nochri — even in Beis Din.

    And therefore, as a result of the above, every yehudi has a legal obligation of pikuach nefesh in saving this yehudi.

30. #29 thank you very much.

31. I see certain opinions are not allowed, since I twice pointed out certain facts regarding what Torah says and those comments keep being deleted.

32. “#4 Your argument disproves itself because once a drug abuser always a drug abuser. So he will almost certainly, return to drugs and then be under the influence, to kill again. Comment by hereorthere — February 13, 2010 @ 10:55 pm”

    You’re definitely mixed up about this.
    A) Like someone wrote, no one is asking that he be released,
    B) You may be thinking about “Once a child molester, always a child molester.” A lot of people say that is true, but no one claims the same sort of thing about drug users. And you’re wrong. I myself know one man who injected drugs, who quit for 8 years until he died of HIV/Aids contracted when he was sharing needles on the street. And I myself know several alcoholics who have entirely quit drinking, including one for 30 years and another for 40 years so far.

    This is a life and death matter. Please check out what you write with a reliable source before writing. And because of your mistakes here, I suspect what other “facts” you point out that were deleted were not facts at all.

33. #26, Englisher Yid
    you just made yourself sound so awful, I feel so sorry for you.

    #28 & 29 THANK YOU! there are still sensible people in this world- it’s as simple as you put it! lo taamod al dam re’echa!