28 Responses

1. Would a public rally have any influence? If yes, we must mobilize and bring out 100,000 Yidden!

2. DELETED.

3. One thing is certain, if ch”v the Republican Governor Charlie Crist decides after all to execute him, G-d forbid, he (the governor) will definitely lose his position. If he’s such a heartless man, no conservative would vote for him again and, of course, the democrats would also not. So that would leave him out of office and with a guilty feeling for the rest of his life. Let’s hope he has brains and some compassion.

4. #2, you are being logical. I see your point. I am also sure you are very upset at this while at the same time the facts make it difficult to take a different stance on this.

5. # 2 Why dont you try changing this persons name with your brother and think if you would keep with the same position.

6. #2, as painful as it is, I agree with your point.
   It is very painful to sit back and “allow” a fellow Jew to be put to death.
   The chachma is that I don’t believe that any of us on this site would condone any other ethnic group to get away with ‘murder’…
   What we could do is ban together to beg HKBH to have mercy on him.

7. #6, why dont you lighten up? If you understand the facts of the case, then you can understand the difficulty many of us have. I would dare not say why dont you exchange the name of the murdered officer with your sister and ponder that it was done by a guy on probation for burglary, high on drugs, shooting a stolen gun, who hit her over the head with a gun as she called in the situation, and then took her gun, pointed it at her back, and pulled the trigger.

   The facts say a lot. But since he is family, we can be pained and understand the situation at the same time. I am sure the family members of any convicted murderer would feel the same. They dont want to see it happen, BUT… With Jews, we are all family. This is a tragic event. Very very tragic!

8. Why were my responses to those who attacked my post deleted? I’m not allowed to respond to people who call me a sick goy?
   Moderators Response: Their comments were deleted as well as yours.

9. I am sorry about another post, but this situation has an added problem in turning one Jew to question the “Jewishness” of his fellow Jew.

   I wish to state that I hope there is a stay of execution. I do not want this person to receive the death penalty. I am upset at this situation because he is a fellow Jew.

   At the same time, there is an HONEST DISSONANCE to grasping the situation.

   I know many 19 year olds who are Jewish and not Jewish. So do you! To be on probation for burglary, and to be a drug user, is a bad apple. For that same person to be caught again shooting a stolen gun, is even a worse bad apple.

   To have an officer of the law question anyone you know who is 19, or even, for that matter, YOU OR I, and while we are hearing the officer on their two-way radio, the 19 year old, or YOU or I grab their gun and hit them on the head…..struggle to take the officers gun, and that 19 year old you know, or you or I take the gun and apply muscled in the struggle to shoot them in the back………that is not merely a “bad apple”. That is a dangerous kind of person who did the unthinkable.

   As Jews, are we not a people of law, above all others?

   I am sure we are all upset at this. I am sure all of us would prefer the execution be stopped. But I would also like to know how many of you can TOTALLY sweep under the carpet the event that occurred, and cannot understand the penatly here, merely because it is a fellow Jew.

10. Well, so much for being together as family…

11. Moderator: Thank you.

    MoshiachNow01: Thank you for your eloquent post #10. I agree with every word of it.

    #11: smalltowngirl, I hear you…

12. I do not understand the idea of excusing this murderer on the basis that he was on drugs.

    As if someone forced the drugs into him.
    As if he did not choose to violate the drug laws and drug himself up.

    As far as “all Jews being family” where is that attitude when someone is not in trouble with the law and needs help.

    I have for example gone to many Jewish employeers asking for a job and they say “only if you have experience” I ask “train me” they do not want to be bothered.
    But if it was their son or other close relative they would train them no problem.

    If I lost my job and could not pay my rent there would be no big collection to cover my costs like if I were a murderer on Death Row.

    So where is all this mythical “family togetherness” I keep hearing about?

    It seems like someone has to go out and commit heinous crimes for the “family” to care about them and help them.

13. #13, be careful or you will open a can of worms…
    this conversation could lead to addictions and being “forced” to do drugs? Well, I hope that you and I never know the demon of addiction…
    As far as the whole family shtick goes…we ARE family, but seemingly only when it is convenient.
    This one is more frum, this one make3s a chillul HaShem, this one wears short skirts with slits, and this one is uber tziusdik but middos…not so much.

14. Martin Grossman was guilty of a capital offense under four of the “special circumstances” clauses in the State of Florida. Murder in the course of a robbery. Murder to avoid arrest. Murder of a law enforcement officer in the course of her duties. And the Judge found that the murder also qualified as “especially wicked, evil, atrocious or cruel” which is also a special circumstances clause.

    So yes, sadly, Martin Grossman did comit one of the most heinous of crimes, and if we are going to have a death penalty at all, this case qualifies.

15. First, no one saying to let him free, the article states “And the request should be that Mr. Grossman be permitted to serve his debt to society by serving the rest of his life in prison.”
    Second, there are many cases where the plea of insanity has spared the perp more than just life in prison.
    ;

16. There was an Op-Ed piece on here that I cannot find.

    Anyway, I learned from the article that Mr. Grossman had an IQ of 77. I commented that when working for Easter Seals Society, we had strict guidelines to watch over the behavior of clients with IQ’s on that level. In fact, the guidelines were stricter than for the at-risk youth who already had run-ins with the law. The thought was low IQ client’s were much more likely to participate in anti-social behavior due to not understanding the mores the rest of us follow.

    I suggested this would be a mitigating factor. Just a quick search online revealed a plethora of information regarding low IQ and anti social behavior. Before I post just one loaded link, perhaps Mr. Grossman did not get proper rehabilitative treatment from the courts and should NOT have been mainstreamed once he was already on probation.

    Here is a link linking IQ and anti-social behavior. To me, such information would be valid to encourage a new look at his case, unless those who put him on probation do not want to incur any liability for handling him like someone with a higher IQ and understanding of social mores and values.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2254220/

17. I think the issue will then be whether his IQ is, in fact, 77. There is some doubt about this. Frankly, I myself wondered about this after I read the poems he posted on the internet. For a person with possible cognitive impairment, he’s unbelievably articulate. Also, in terms of capital punishment, some states only consider having people with IQ of about 50 – 65 be exempt. Don’t know about Florida.

    I hope this inspires my fellow Jews to stop supporting candidates who support the Death Penalty. It’s unfair to people of all races and ethnic groups. It may be too late for Martin Grossman, but maybe other people can be given life without the possibility of parole instead.

18. Government agencies don’t usually give any heed to on-line petitions. I believe it would be bettr to use the address for Governor Crist at the bottom of the article. It is faster than postal mail and it carries an electronic signature that can be verified as true.

19. Would the website please post the circumstance leading to the arrest and conviction of Mr. Grossman? I would like to see the article about this crime. It appears to me that we have a lot of discussion here with very few fact posted. Your website’s plea is long on ambiguity, and short on facts. Thank you,

20. No one should sign any petitions without fully understanding why they’re signing a petition. Playing on people emotions is a wrong tactic.

21. I HIGHLY URGE EVERYONE TO READ THIS PSYCHOLOGY EVALUATION REPORT by Dr. Fisher before making conclusions or deciding if Grossman is worthy of the death penalty. It can be found on: http://www.savemartingrossman.com under the medical report link on the left side. Or by going to

    http://www.chabadbeaches.com/media/pdf/386/EQyf3868418.pdf

    I read all 26 pages and believe that it’s highly unjust to give Grossman the death sentence. The poor man went through a hard life of neglection and full of misery. He grew up all by himself with no siblings and taking care of his sick father, his father passed away at a young age. His father, grandfather and relatives all passed away during the same short time period leading to his depression. He had no choice but to turn to drugs and alcohol as a means to shed some light in his life. Dr. Fisher clearly states in the examination report:

    “It would be inconsistent and highly illogical to characterize Martin’s actions during the murder as rationally directed toward the goals of avoiding arrest or hindering law enforcement. No such goal-oriented behavior or cognition was possible given the severely altered mental state in which martin was functioning”

22. Could someone please clarify what the halacha is. If a yid kills a non jew does he get killed?

23. I’d heard that Dr. Fisher was a forensic psychologist hired by the Defendant’s attorneys. Is this true? Or is he an independent one hired by the court? Because that would carry some weight.

    If he has an IQ of 77, how did he write those poems in his personal ad?

24. 25 what does iq have to do with poems? it is based on deductive and inductive reasoning. And what family are you referring to? he doesn’t have really family. To my knowledge dr. fisher is a death row psychologist hired by the prison.

25. ChanieJ (21): have you read the petition from the Aleph Institute and Chabad? And check out an article on crosscurrents.com with the Agudah’s stance on it.

    I say, sign the right one, and daven.
    I haven’t called or written the governor. As I’ve said, the governor is in a terrible bind, considering the blot on Huckabee from results of a similar situation.

    No one is asking for him to be freed, just to let live, given a multiplicity of circumstances.

    I think that when so many Jews are involved in an act of chesed (and there have been several notable ones recently, e.g. SMR) it behooves us to get involved, even if all one does is have extra kavana when saying matir assurim, even if one has reservations that make taking extra steps too uncomfortable. Just do something positive.

26. I heard from one of the Gedolim (& the only reason I am not saying his name is because he said this before the other names were signed or “put down”) that if you are going to make a big deal, make sure your name is not a Jewish sounding name. Don’t write to officials that you are a Yid & you want a committed murderer, who admitted to the crime, off the hook.

27. I also sent an email to Governor Crist (and used the “read receipt” option in Outlook). After 3 days i got a read receipt response stating that the email was deleted without being read.
    Secondly, I see from some of the comments that people think we want Martin Grossman released; I think that what is being pushed is a stay of execution only to avoid the death penalty but he still has to serve time with life in prison for the crime.

28. #22, here is the halacha:

    Al pi din a) a Noachide (secular) court does not have jurisdiction over a yehudi, b) a Noachide (secular) court does not have authority to impose misa on a yehudi, c) without 2 witnesses who provided warning beforehand there is no death penalty and d) a yehudi is not chayiv misa under any circumstance for rotzeach of a nochri — even in Beis Din.

    And therefore, as a result of the above, every yehudi has a legal obligation of pikuach nefesh in saving this yehudi.

    Comment by volvie — February 14, 2010 @ 6:59 pm