Last week, YWN was sent a video of a few “Lubavitcher Meshichistin” in Melbourne, Australia making a “Seudas Yom Tov” on the 10th of Teves, a fast day. They claimed that since the Rebbe King Moshiach is already here, there is no reason to fast on the 10th of Teves again. They went so far as to video-tape this party, and publicize it on the Internet.
Today, we were sent a letter by Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner, the head of Chabad of Melbourne, placing them into Cherem for their actions.
Sunday January 10, 2010
24 Tevet 5770
PUBLIC NOTICE
It has been brought to my attention that on the 10th of Teves (Sunday December 27th) this year, a day on which our Rabbis decreed that we are obligated to fast, as stated in Shulchan Oruch (Code of Jewish Law Ch. 121), a small group of individuals organised a festive meal at which they ate, drank and rejoiced. They subsequently publicised their actions by posting a film of the festivities on international websites, together with the message and implication that such behaviour is highly commendable and is connected with the coming of the Moshiach.
I therefore wish to state unequivocally and to emphasise in the strongest manner that the above actions, being as they are contrary to the explicit rulings of Chazal and Shulchan Oruch, are totally unacceptable at any time or in any place. That the perpetrators of such misguided deeds should then endeavour to make their behaviour known all over the world, constitutes a massive and reckless Chillul Hashem which can have no justification. In addition, these actions do not represent that philosophy and way of life taught by Chabad Chassidus, in any way or form. They are totally contrary to the wishes and directives of the Rebbe and those who carry on his holy work. To present such conduct as being in accordance with the Rebbe’s teachings and message is a complete fabrication, and can only serve to destroy the good name of Chabad in the general community.
In light of the above, I find it necessary to rule that until the perpetrators of these deeds stand before a Beis Din of three Rabbonim, and seek forgiveness and correction of that which they have done, they are to be ostracized by all members of the community. They cannot be counted as part of a minyan (for davening) or mezuman (for bentsching), and one may not answer Amen after their Brochos. They cannot be given a Aliyah to the Torah or honoured with any other Mitzvah (see Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deah Ch. 334 Para 2). Similarly, one should not speak to them or have any business dealings with them.
May the Al-mighty restore His broken fences, and put into the hearts of those who have gone astray, a spirit of true Teshuvah.
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner
Yeshivah Centre
(YWN World Headquarters – NYC)
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78 Responses
Interesting to note that he does not refer to the Rebbe, as the Rebbe ZATZAL. I can’t seem to think of any reasonable explanation……
This is why the internet is important – it helps bring such things to light.
Nishtgenigtsaichel, try to look at the positive of the response from Rav Telsner…
This is the ultimate in mishigaz. It is shocking and yet why not … if there is a sizable group that believe that the Rebbe never died at all, that he is alive, among us, but we just can’t see it. C’mon people. The sad thing is that Lubavitch Chabad has a rich mesora and not until the death of the Rebbe ztl have these kind of mishiginas come out and spoken this kind of nonsense. And the people that believe this you can’t even suggest that they may be mistaken. They will just say that you have a golus mentality and you can’t understand what is the emes. It makes me sad because look at what these people are doing to the memory of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ztl and what they are doing in creating division between Chabad and other Yidden. Oh, If only psychotropic mediacation could solve this. Baruch Hashem there are people who do refer to the Lubavitcher Rebbe with a “ZTL”
As a Chabad Chossid I say ..ITS ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!!!
Listen, I’m not so worried whether or not this Rabbi Telsner believes the Lubavitcher Rebbe has passed away or not, as long as he behaves appropriately. It seems to me that he did the right thing, and we should be grateful for that.
Believing that the Rebbe is still alive is a minor problem compared to the public announcement made by those meshichisten in Melbourne.
Such activities are a natural result of all that Chabad has been standing for the last 50 years. The putting in a Cherem of these people is praiseworthy, but should apply to any member of that sect who believes that their leader was/is Moshiach and will re-appear as such.
To #1:
I can …
#1 – This was an excellent, strong, appropriate reaction by R’ Telsner! It is to be commended, not criticized.
First of all, as long as the words proclaiming that the Rebbi z”l IS THE MOSHIACH adorns the roof of WORLD LUBABICH HEADQUARTERS at 770, the actions of this group CANNOT be called outside mainstream CHaBaD belief. A tusted Rav told me that there are Bachurim there who dance up to the Rebbi z”l’s and daven facing hie makom kevooah before Mincha. (confirmed by a Lubabitsher I work with.}
I truely believe that there are only two kinds of Lubabithers; those who openly proclaim thier belief that he was the Mashiaich, and those who keep it to themselves.
Why are we trusting these people with kashrus?
this is very litle very late .
rav telsner the ban should be on all stupid yarmulka and flags wering mashchisim
For more info on this topic the following books may enlighten you, Eye of the Storm By Rav Aaron Feldman and The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference by David Berger
On the positive – The Rav should be commended on taking a strong stance on this issue.
On the downside – I think that every Lubavitcher really needs to do some major introspection (especially the leaders) and realize that they are at fault for this horrible Chillel HaShem. It started out by believing in their hearts that the Rebbe was Moshiach, but denying it publicly. Then they crowned him Moshiach after his stroke. When he went into a coma they stated he could not die because he’s Moshiach. Finally when he died they started to come out with foolishness of a 2nd coming. From there it’s just gone down hill (some even profess that he is the embodiment of Hashem in human form. Is this starting to sound all too familiar?) As you can see, a lie just gets bigger and bigger!
So what was the problem here? The problem stems from the beginning, believing that he was Moshiach. What’s wrong with that? After all, there certainly are people that believed Rav Shach, zl was Moshiach!?
The answer is that there is a difference between believing that someone is FITTING to be Moshiach and deciding that he IS Moshiach. There were many tzaddikim over the centuries that were fitting to be Moshiach (meaning that if we would have been worthy that person would have been Moshiach and we would have had the Geulah Sheleima), but we were not. Certainly everybody would hold that if Moshaich would have come in the times of the Chofetz Chaim, the Chofetz Chaim would definitely have become the Kohen Gadol. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen.
Here lies the problem. Once they decided that the Rebbe IS Moshiach, they left NO room to be wrong. When he died, instead of dealing with the embarrassment of being wrong, they took the easy road stating that he’s coming back (sounds like a 2010 year old story).
Once you live with a lie, it just gets bigger and bigger! 🙁
Unfortunately, although I certainly agree with Rav Telsner’s actions, I really feel the need to challenge him from his own point of view (assuming that he has also succumbed to this ludicrous believe of the Rebbe’s 2nd coming). As soon as you say that the Rebbe left his body in order to purify and prepare for the eminent Geula, and adding the belief that we are already in the faze of the Geula Sheleima, then why not hold that the fast of the 10th of Teves should cease to be as will be the case in the Geula Sheleima?
If you state that non-the-less it’s against Halacha, I quote a Chashuv Rav of Chabad when I asked him where is the source for Moshiach having techiyas Hameisim, “It’s a Gemorah in Sanhedrin, but WE DON’T PASKIN THAT WAY!!!” (He stated it with much agitation)
So I ask you why is it ok to close your eyes to Halacha in one place, but demand it’s uphold in another?
Remember: A lie is a lie is a lie!!!!!!
BS”D
Referring to the Rebbe with nothing afterward is something I have seen very often with regard to many of the gedoilim of the past generation – “Rav Moshe paskens” “Reb Yoilish said” or even going further back “Rav Akiva Eiger paskens” – and it has no real significance. Sometimes I write the Rebbe ZYA, sometimes I write the Rebbe. Probably has to do with how much time I have and how many other things I am doing.
These guys aren’t important enough to put in cherem although I agree fully with Rav Telsner’s decision to do so. Check the meshuggeners’ YouTube channel with them dancing around NaNach style, wearing clown hats. I think these four clowns should be sent to the same pre-1a as the NK wannabes, and the clown hat dancer can make a new and more fitting shtreimel for Yisroel Dovid Weiss while he is at it.
As for the issues in 770, those mishegoyim who do weird things during davening are not handling kashrus or anything else. Actually I know two of these maniacs, both absolutely certifiable, who won’t eat meat NOT schechted by one of their own ilk.
They are our shababnikim (in fact they are dropouts from EY and to a lesser extent France), and after a couple of violent incidents in Crown Heights, they are one step above cherem. People of that ilk are the ones who put the signs up on headquarters and because these fools don’t answer to any beis din, civil legal battles have been going on for ages so that they can be removed permanently.
We in Chabad sometimes have a little bit too much ahavas Yisroel, and we allow our adult children to play in public. As we are open to all, we attract our share of head cases and we don’t hide them or chase them away. In Crown Heights there is little central authority or guidance and many fall through the cracks and join the ranks of the meshuggeners because they are either misguided or mentally imbalanced. Australia does have central authority, one for Melbourne and one for Sydney – hence the cherem (these four meshigistim are just ignorant and immature; like the KKKarta they are not shoitim in the halachic sense or even in need of any psychiatric assistance other than a nice hard potch).
This cherem is a good idea even if it gives the nuts too much of the attention they crave. A similar cherem was pronounced on the nut brigade in EY when they pulled a similar stunt and it did bring results.
As soon as you say that the Rebbe left his body in order to purify and prepare for the eminent Geula,
BS”D
Rav Telsner, like myself and any other sane Lubavitcher, do not believe the above for one moment. That belief was bandied about, mostly online and on the radio, by a few fringe freaks and this is the first time I have heard it since someone gave me a radio transcript of some foolishness said in the heat of the moment a few weeks after the Rebbe ZYA left this world.
Actually, the meshuggeners twist “Yaakov avinu lo mes” into a proof that the Rebbe ZYA is still alive and somehow hidden. Most of them don’t believe that themselves; among some it burns out after adolescence.
Lets not confuse 2 things.
Belief that the chabad rebbe is moshiach is not against halacha, what these FEW people did (I saw the video) IS against halacha!
Harav Hagaon, Reb Tzvi is a massive talmid chochom, the fact that he himslef is a mishichist or not, is not relevant since that is not against halcha. Kol hakovod to him for speaking up!
Just to add, I looked at the pethitic video and must say that the problem lies with their quoting the Rebbe himself along with other Chashiva Chabbad Rebbeim in support of their view. How is an ignorant Jew who is influenced by Chabad to counter their claims when they are quoting statements directly from the Rebbe? That would be like blasphemy!
To top it off Chabad has created many songs (as can be heard in the video) that reinforce such treif beliefs.
In my opinion, the righteous amongst Chabadniks that don’t believe in all this stuyot need to ban together and create a presence that is distinctly different (even in look) from the Meshichistin. Thus forcing Chabadniks to take sides, stating to them that either you are with us or them, but not both!
A600KiloBear – do you believe the Rebbe is going to have Techiyas Hameisim to be Moshiach? Do you believe that no one else can be Moshiach? In other words, do you feel that none of our Gedolim today is worthy of being Moshiach and therefore we have to rely on the return of a dead Gadol to come back to life to be Moshiach?
BS”D
The songs you heard in the video are mockeries of songs that are not even necessarily Chabad. One is a Greek song which was made popular in EY as a treyf muzika mizrahit song. Being fluent in both Ivrit and French, I have developed a taste for kosher music of that variety, and if legitimate Chabad had words to that tune I’d be singing them in my sleep. The other song is a meshichist hymn of post 3 Tammuz 5754 vintage. They took the already problematic original Hebrew words and made them even more ridiculous, crossing the line between false hope and outright kefira. (The English words were hitherto unheard of anywhere). The final song which has some Russian words is also not connected Chabad; it is from an EY ‘alternative music’ singer, Adi Ran IIRC who is a Breslover. It is “Higia Zman Hageula” – sung off tune.
If the Rebbe ZYA had heard even the one that is a meshichist hymn with the original, tamer words, he would have stopped it fast. Very fast. He stopped far milder songs than that.
Quotes – purely out of context and probably inaccurate as well. Same nonsense as (not even really) lehavdil the anti-Semites who quote Gemara and Shulchan Oruch out of context to prove their agenda of hate.
The answer to 18 Softwords – a) no b) no c) I do not see a clear candidate for Moshiach today but we all know that Moshiach could be the biggest surprise.
Even most meshichisten (the ones who really just go through the motions, which is 80% of them) do not believe that the Rebbe ZYA is vadai moshiach al pi haRambam!
What I am not sure of according to the Rambam is whether every generation has someone bechezkas Moshiach (which I believe the Rebbe ZYA was until 3 Tammuz 5754) or whether it can be that a generation does not have such an individual who can clearly be identified. I also don’t concern myself with this except at an intellectual level.
If others would act against the Ku Klutz Kartel, the once respected rav from Efrat who lost his way, and yes, the dybbuk clowns, the way Rav Telsner acted against these clowns (who are much more harmless than the others above), the whole Torah world would be a lot better off. That is because none of these people are shoitim and a cherem would mean the end of their antics (and in the case of the dybbuk clowns, their deceit and mockery of real Kabboloh).
Now, as for why we don’t create a “separate presence”. Chassidim Ein Mishpocho – we consider ourselves one family – and every family has skeletons in its closet. Just as we don’t chas vesholom even think of throwing a disabled child LA out of the house and into the street, so too with these remedial pre-1a candidates. Even this cherem is meant to bring the clowns back into the normal category, not to throw them out. Hopefully, just as a certain person in Vienna did tshuva after a few months in cherem, these characters will cut their games, learn some simple Torah, and apologize as he did.
Can anyone answer if – Rabbi Telsner HIMSELF is a Moshiachist or not?
It would be interesting to know!
“and can only serve to destroy the good name of Chabad in the general community.”
um, what good name?
“there is little central authority or guidance”
This is a huge issue that represents a major departure from traditional Jewish practice. There are literally hundreds of Chabad “rabbis” out there making their own decisions without the guidance of an objective talmid chacham. Daily decisions involved in leading a kehilla can often be difficult and only become more difficult when compounded by one’s own negi’ot (reputation, “customer” satisfaction, money, power, etc.) I’ve personally witnessed rather alarming concessions made in halacha and in the spirit of Orthodox Judaism in the name of keeping everyone happy so they’ll come(read: drive) to shul. I’ve even heard one Chabad “rabbi” say (in response to
a protest over an inappropriate practice being sanctioned in his shul) that (Rabbi) Avi Weiss said it was okay so there was what to rely on!! I’ve been witnessing the slippery slope ever since that encounter.
“our shababnikim”
Every year, I watch a new crop of “shlichot” (seminary-age girls sent out to do their year of service in various communities) come and am beginning to understand that the mode of dress I was initially so shocked about is quite the norm rather than the exception among Lubavitch girls. The skirts well over the knee, the provocative shoes, revealing necklines, skin-tight fit, etc. I’ve actually had more than one not-yet-frum woman ask me, if they’re religious, why do they dress that way? It has always amazed me to see how many so-called rabbis allow their wives to dress. IS that, too, all in the name of attracting people to yiddishkeit? Is the idea to appear hip and with it so as to demonstrate the religious Judaism is not as confining or restrictive as some may think?
“We in Chabad sometimes have a little bit too much ahavas Yisroel”
by Yisroel, I believe you mean unaffiliated Jews or Chabad supporters. Religious Jews from other “sects” – say, for example, a typical yeshivish, non-chassidic Jew – don’t seem to be treated with much “ahavah.” The religious Jew who moves anywhere near a Chabad house and tries to befriend neighboring Jews? He’d better beware because the not-so-loving Chabadnik is likely to rear his head.
Forgive me for some of my bitterness. I spent many years in blissful naivete before my eyes were so rudely opened to a very sad reality. I am sad for the good people that are being misguided by a philosophy that is lacking in several ways and is taking them farther from the true Torah values and ideals.
It’s a challenge to imagine a world of peace but, nevertheless, I await moshiach tzidkeinu every day…
Thank G-d. These shotim have absolutely nothing to do with Lubavitch or the Rebbe.
To # 20 Yes Rabbi Telsner is a mishichist.
But again, do not confuse this VERY SMALL group of crazys with the general Chabad public.
Lets not confuse 2 things.
Belief that the chabad rebbe is moshiach is not against halacha, what these FEW people did (I saw the video) IS against halacha!
Harav Hagaon, Reb Tzvi is a massive talmid chochom, the fact that he himslef is a mishichist or not, is not relevant since that is not against halcha. Kol hakovod to him for speaking up!
I have spoken to several lubavitchers I work with, most of whom are mishichist and they are all against this tiny group.
Can anyone answer if – Rabbi Telsner HIMSELF is a Moshiachist or not?
BS”D
He is not.
Mikarevet – I am sorry you had a bad experience. 90% of those who came into contact with Chabad had no such experiences and therefore we are growing and thriving despite our problems, which are simply a case of until Moshiach is here, nothing is perfect.
While tznius among our girls is a problem as it is in any community that is not so isolated as to ban Internet and women’s magazines, and while anyone who quotes Avi Weiss is not fit to be a shaliach of Chabad (was he indeed a shaliach or was he a Chabad rabbi serving a non-Chabad congregation – the first would be grounds for discipline whereas the second would be just plain bad judgement or pandering to those who pay the salaries), Chabad has a very good name out there. Somehow I can’t even walk in any major city in the US, Europe or Canada without Jews asking me, and davka me, for information and even directions. This includes other Chassidim, yeshivaleit, Sefardim and not yet frum Yidden. And I don’t look like the friendliest guy out there; I’m from NY and came of age during the high crime era and conduct myself accordingly when in strange places.
Questionable dress is unacceptable and is not an attempt at making things easier for anyone except those dressing that way.
In some cases it is a feeling of no one is watching, which is bad news indeed; in others it is just a case of being deficient in one area of halacha as all of us probably are. Each year the standard seems to be getting better here; the shluchos, permanent and temporary, are mostly local or from EY. I don’t know the situation in the US.
BS”D
Actually in terms of looking different, I should say that official Chabad will not publicize or accept the work of any shaliach who espouses the meshichist line, and none of us who are not extremists would ever think to display or even own a Moshiach flag. Then, there is the Yechi yarmulka which the meshichisten choose to wear; we’d sooner wear lampshades on our heads than such yarmulkes.
I agree with comment #21 by mikarevet in everything they said about tznius and about ahavas Yisroal (or lack of it).
I went to Lubavitch Yeshivah in New Jersey and had to leave because I could not afford to keep taking out loans to pay tuition then was denied the frum “being careful about loshon hara and wanting to properly follow about Torah and Mitzvohs” shudduchim because those girls were only red shidduchim with those boys who had gone to Yeshivah for 10 years or more.
Their middos did not matter only how long they had gone to yeshivah.
I had plenty of loshon hara said about me while I was there and these ideas were taught to young children who happily joined in (I’ll bet those are many of the ones who now go around with this
Christian like cultist stuff about the Rebbe still being Moshiach and having a 2nd comming).
And I have known others who have left yiddishkeit altogether because they have had similar experiences.
BS”D
Tomorrow is Monday as well as the end of our legal holiday period, so I am back to lurk mode as far as YWN or any other site is concerned.
Therefore, I would like to sum up by reminding Mikarevet that I have had a bad experience with a five star Marriott hotel that came highly recommended.
I do not judge the rest of the Marriott chain by that one bad experience, which I chose not to follow up on with a consumer complaint other than putting a scathing comment on the suggestions form in my welcome packet.
So it is with any organization as huge as Chabad which has such high standards to uphold. You are going to find a bad apple in every bunch, and such is life. In the case of the rabbi who used Weiss as an example, that is a clear violation of our standards and if I knew who it was I would make a couple of phone calls (I won’t do that on second hand information without asking my rov because of LH issues). The girls, well, the problem is there but your analysis of their motivation is very off base. It is the same problem as in every community, compounded by the fact that these girls are away from home and enjoying their last year before settling down for marriage. You cannot imagine what kind of work these girls are doing for the community; lately it has included working with disabled children and always has included teaching often recalcitrant young children from backgrounds very different to the girls’ own. No excuse for the dress, but they aren’t out there to model or party.
In all my years with Chabad, only once have I ever heard of any hostility toward a Jew of another origin who is shomer Torah umitzvos. It happened when a very rude menuval, who was in a community to visit and solicit a donation (for a sefer IIRC) from a major donor to Chabad there, started to scream at the shaliach’s own children and tell them that their parents were abusing them by bringing them up on shlichus. Said menuval was asked to leave the shaliach’s house and in essence run out of the community, even though had all been well the shaliach would have had no problem with someone from outside Chabad soliciting his own supporter for a donation. Yeah, some kids in big communities use silly kiddie words to refer to people from outside, but such kiddie silliness is really nothing compared to the abuse heaped upon us from adults (who then cry to our shluchim when their kids go OTD and end up in trouble for drugs in some remote location). At the end of the day, it was only Chabad who opened up its yeshivas to the kids in the maabarot at the time of the founding of the medine. Not special yeshivas, but our then flagship Tomchei Tmimim in Lod. And that’s why, when you go into 770 or any big community in NY, Canada or EY, you see Jews of all sizes, shapes and colors, all learning Chassidus.
My favorite memory of 770 as it once was is the stereotypical small, thin Teimani bochur from EY standing near me, who did not have a siddur on that crowded Simchas Torah, but it was hardly a problem for him. His physical form was such that he could squeeze himself into the little space that I was able to make for him amidst the crowd and his Teimani traditions were such that he could read from my tiny pocket siddur upside down, so that he stood facing me until the crowd abated and I was able to wedge him in so he was reading it sideways!
A600KiloBear –
1) It’s good to know that your are one of the “righteous amongst Chabadniks” I mentioned about before.
2) I think you should contemplate #21 mikarevet’s words very seriously. She is speaking very honestly with an open mind and her points are unfortunately all too real.
3) I also know Chabad very intimately from the inside (although I was one of those “friends of Chabad” and not a Chabadnik myself). The reality is very much like the family mashul you gave. Unfortunately, as you know, the nimshol is that just like at times there is great strife amongst siblings, so too there is great strife amongst Chabadniks. As you know there is division (at least 3 parties within Chabad) and unfortunately “turf” amongst shluchim. 🙁
4) Family is family and you don’t kick them out, UNLESS they are causing harm to their siblings. In that case, a RESPONSIBLE parent has no choice other than to give them an ultimatum, either shape up or ship out! That is what Rav Telsner did. That is what is desperately needed on a high scale. Unfortunately, it is not being done; possibly due to Chabad not really having a clearly defined code of believes in regards to Moshiach and the Rebbe. This, I believe was the Gra’s taaneh on the Alter Rebbe and the Rav Shulchan Orech was the Rebbe’s response (in other words he excepted the Gra’s tochacha of Chabad Chassidus lacking guidelines and rectified the situation by writing the Rav Shulchan Orech, B”H).
5. I think that if you and others like you would give a little less Dan L’kav Zechus to fellow Chabadniks you would do a LOT more for Chabad Chassidus by feeling an achirus to make strong demands for change. People like you with clear heads should listen more often to the complaints against Chabad and take them to heart instead of making a greased shield and excusing yourselves. We don’t gain by saying “I’m fine your fine”. We do by saying “with a little bit of change comes perfection”.
6. Just food for thought: Try sitting in another camp for a while and try to mimic them long enough to see their maalot. You’ll come back to Chabad being more well rounded seeing both sides. I actually know people who have done so and are happy they have. Beforehand, they were just a Chabadnik. Now they are part of Klal Yisrael that happens to be of Chassidei Chabad.
Mr. 600Kilobear, I personally was present at a Farbrengen when Chassidim sang “Chayolei Adoneinu Moreinu Verabeinu, Vechayolei HoRebbe, Moshiach Tzidkeinu…” and he did nothing to stop them.
#21 As a traveling businessman, and the fact that both of my partners are lubavitchers, I get to daven, eat and sometimes even stay in Chabad houses around the globe twice a month. By recent count, I have been in hundreds of chabad houses around the US and the world in the last 14 years.
That being said, where do you come off saying things about the way chabad shluchim and their rebetzins, are being meikel in anything?? Or how they dress?? You are obviously basing your opinion on 1 or maybe 2 places!! I have NEVER seen anything like that. Are you possibly talking about crown heights, which is over populated by B’T’s and FFB’s who could “not make it” and go out on shlichus??? Certainly you cant be talking about the creme of the crop, shluchim who are out there busting their tails for fray and yes, even frum Yidden, as any other travler on this site can attest to!!
yochi – I think it depends on the location. The more far out the more dedicated to Torah and Mitzvos the shliach is (and the more excepting of frum Yidden of other denominations). The problems tend to be in big cities (besides just NY).
NOT writing zt”l does NOT constitute any meshichist belief. Many people when mentioning a beloved one, do not say z”l. This happens in many situations. Some examples:
1. Tatty /Zeidy said…(Not always Tatty z”l.)
2. Rebbe so & so said.
3. Reb Moishe wrote.
Why did we not hear anything about a Cherem when a leading Chabad Rabbi in LA said, after an kinnus hisorrerus at the time of the Mumbai siege, that “the Rebbe runs the world”? That is worse than eating on Asoro BaTeves!
By the way, why did the chabadskers in Australia only come up with this now? Is it because in Australia this is the longest fast? Or does it have to do with the fact that it is the first taanis in the year (5)770?
To 23#
If what you say is correct – that Rabbi Telsner IS indeed a Moshiachist, then I hate to inform you that it his HE and people LIKE him which is the source of the problem……
I smell a Rat.
This doesn’t make any sense.
Something is wrong with this picture, with Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner.
In order to put someone in Cherem it requires a Beis Din and Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner, by himself, is not a Beis Din so where and who are the other 2 Rabbi’s?
Secondly is Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner saying that there are no Mechaleley Shabbos Befarhesya is his community and there is no Giloy Arayos Befarhesya in his community and no one in his community is doing any Averos worthy of being put in Cherem and Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner ONLY CONCERN is these 2 Mentally Ill people?
Makes me wonder about the sanity of Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner, himself, if he has nothing more important to worry about and that this the biggest Avera of the century to make a Cherem about, 2 lunatics dancing and just eating on a fast day?
So all the Intermarriage in the community of Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner is OK and does not warrant a Cherem and all the conservative and reform in his hometown don’t warrant a Cherem but the worlds only huge problem is 2 Meshugaim dancing on YouTube and just eating on a fast day?
He has no other concerns of Yiddishkiet?
Imanonov, agreed 100%. Avoza zarah and kefira are yehareig ve’al yaavors. This is an issur derabanan, and is not counter to halacha IF Mpshiach arrived.
One Rav by himself, is not a Beis Din and therefore his Cherem is actually not a Cherem but a joke, a publicity stunt, not unlike the clown in the youtube video.
One person making a clown-cherem, without any real beis din, such ‘Cherem’ is invalid.
Furthermore a Cherem Like a Loaded Gun and is not some kind of a childs toy, which, you play around with and if someone makes an invalid Cherem it backfires on himself.
It’s a rachmanus on Rabbi Telsner that he doesn’t realize what he playing around with.
#38 and what are your credentials.do you have ‘horahah’ . he is the rav of chabad in that city. and what makes you thinmk it wasn’t wit 2 other talmidai chchamimand its not mentioned in the article?
HashkofasHatorah – I’m sorry to say, but your statement lack depth of understanding. It appears quite clear that you are just angry with Rabbi Telsner and are trying to discredit him. Your words are in vain. 🙁
#36 and what makes you think he has ‘no other concerns’.do the news outlets report every concern of every rov thruout the world..this is an interesting piece of news so its reported. so stop with your childish remarks.regarding those ‘jewish’ movements, no, you dont put those movements into cherem as they were already removed from the family of yidden (klall yisroel)by the holy tzaddikum of previous generations chasam soifer, ktav soifer and 100’reds of gedolai oilom it’s called ‘the teilung’
im beginning to wonder if you really have the hashkofas hatorah. first of all, as to your first post…there are other problems, but putting out a cherem agains mechallelei shabbos is a bit pointless, seeing as they either know they are doing wrong and dont care…or were brought up that way and are tinokos shenishba. the problem here is that these people think they are 100% correct and therefore they do require a cherem because covering this blatant disregard for the takkanos of our chachomim in a mask of religiosity is very dangerous. the muslims do a similar thing when they use the quran as a cover for suicide bombing…its very dangerous as we all have seen.
second of all, whether the cherem is binding or not is completely irrelevant. the point is that he is making a statement and condemning this outrageous behaviour.
as for the state of lubavitch today. let me make this absolutely clear. a community…be it chasidish or not…extended or local…absolutely cannot function without firm leadership. an analogy could be ghengis khan who united the various warring tribes of mongolia, and killed off the dissenters to create one of the most successful military powers in history! the same must be done with a community. a there must be a uniting leader…not a bunch of little outposts, especially in a network as large and widespread as lubavitch. as we have seen the fabric of this widespread community begins to disintegrate.
the same happened to breslav. many breslav chassidim are misrepresenting the teachings of rav nachman, and doing some seriously wacky things simply because they lack the necessary leadership, and left to their own devices they simply come apart at the seams.
chabad MUST vote or come to an agreement on a leader. i know it has been a number of years since the petirah of the rebbe…but enough is enough! the very fact that there are so many crazy stories and complaints and the need for constant justification of the organization shows that it has become a ragtag bunch of shluchim acting of their own accords. they must appoint a leader, unite under the banner of a united lubavitch, u lubavitch united under a specific ideology with specific guidelines for shluchim and chassidim, and the penalty for non-compliance must be disassociation from the official organization. then and ONLY then will there be an end to all this madness.
6. Just food for thought: Try sitting in another camp for a while and try to mimic them long enough to see their maalot. You’ll come back to Chabad being more well rounded seeing both sides. I actually know people who have done so and are happy they have. Beforehand, they were just a Chabadnik. Now they are part of Klal Yisrael that happens to be of Chassidei Chabad.
BSD
why do you think i’m on this board? as you can see by no caps i have no time this week so besides this the only other thing i want to say is that rav Telsner not stopping the song means nothing. If he himself sang then my info that he is not a meshichist is incorrect. many of the saner ones among us just let the kids dance and play for a while so as to let them burn the nonsense out on their own. when you fight they fight back and they dont play by the rules whereas we do. same with nutty demonstrators in EY, etc etc.
melbourne is shvach because australia is an easygoing laid back place where gashmiyus is king. but still we dont put tinokois shenishbeu in cherem as 36 suggests. In Manchester, kkkarta kleagle Haroun Cohen is in cherem and not the reform or conservative or intermarried.
A600KiloBear,
Izik S,
I know you mean well, but I don’t think you have the right to speak in a way that sounds like you represent Chabad, because you are only one opinion and you are writing in a way that whitewashes the issues, trying to make Chabad smell like a rose, when in reality many people mean well but are misguided.I also think you should be more honest about telling people that you joined Chabad as a college student and you are not exactly the biggest maven on Chabad compared to people who grew up there.
Don’t take this as a personal attack please because it is not.I wanted people to get a perspective of the comments and not be led to believe things which are not correct about Chabad.Btw, The Meshichist movement is unfortunately doing very well as opposed to the impression you give.Also saying “chasidim,ein mishpocha” the way you did makes it sound that Chabad is not “family” with the rest of am yisroel and that is not what is meant.Be well
#36 and #38,
Firstly, it’s not a full cherem, it’s just a normal cherem that is used to bring people to Beis Din, should they refuse. R’Telsner is a Dayan, btw, and a major Talmid Chocham respected outside of chabad as well…
#36, your 2nd argument is totally warped… R’Telsner is not implying that those other problems are not there, but, do you even know the melbourne jewish community? The people who do the avayros you mentioned are not frum at all, therefore, while the problem is still there, a) it will push them away further (ive seen it before, so i know it’s true), b) they will likely not care at all and just ignore it. thats the way it is in australia unfortuneatlt, everyones to laid back…
but people still are working on that problem. The outreach programs in australia (including those under the jurisdiction of R’Telsner), are B”H doing very well, and i myself have had hatzlocha B”H, for instance, i have convinced Yidden to enroll their kids in a Jewish kindergarten, as well as stopped intermarriages, but not just me, but many of my friends as well and also a lot of the shluchim sent here, so noone is ignoring the problem, so please stop you moitze shem ra and your rechilus.
And what makes you think ‘So all the Intermarriage in the community of Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner is OK’????, firstly, the melbourne community has many shuls and rabbonim, what makes you think its only under his jurisdiction alone? and secondly, the shul that R’Telsner leads is almost totally frum. But, there IS an outreach organisation… HOWEVER, using your warped logic, how come you don’t question the litvish kollel in melbourne, or the poylish and hungarian chassidim here with the same question? and they don’t even run outreach!!!??? Not that i am Chas veShalom against them, in fact i am personally very close with those communities, but i just want to show you your warped logic…
Furthermore, the way it is here in australia is that most of the problems you have said are actuallytotally distanced by the jewish community anyway, for example, there is a small homosexual ‘jewish’ club in melbourne which most of the community isn’t even aware of, because theyve been totally ignored for years!
anyway, i hope you see your mistake, and IY”H be more careful how you speak in the future…
p.s. #38 ‘It’s a rachmanus on Rabbi Telsner that he doesn’t realize what he playing around with.’ – I garantee you that he knows what he is talking about, unlike you…
For once, the kilo bear is on the defensive, and his defense is pathetic. Almost all the Chabadniks proclaim the mantra “yechi adoneinu…” They “talk to” and are “answered by” the rebbe himself through the hagralah. This is not a small crazy minority, this is mainstream. The pathetic reference to a Rabbi in Efrat is a diversionary tactic. The truth is that the Lubavitch movement is Christianity with tefillin. It must be condemned and ostracized across the spectrum.
#36 & #38 Rabbi T is the head of the Lubavitch Beis din in Melbourne, I think. I believe that the above is not him “being put into cheirem” rather its a letter about the fact that he “was” put into cheirem.
This is different from a michalel shabbos because no one can be fooled into believing that its ok to be michalel shabbos, but unfortunately some have (very few indeed) have fallen into this trap.
#23 I disagree, since I see no problem with someone believing that the Rebbe is or was Moshiach. Its not contrary to halacha and when Moshiach comes we will see who he is. Either its him or its someone else. I may agree that its foolish to run around and make a big deal out of it, but lo puga vlo nuga to me at this point if lubobs think he is. These clowns on the other hand have gone against halacha!
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner, if he was serious, should first and foremost say if he believes his Rebbe is or is not Moshiach and tell the world if he Chants Yechi every day and if he approves of that, so we can determine if he is a Kosher Jew himself first, before he goes on to Pasel other Yidden.
I hear that Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner is a very fanatical Meshichist and if Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner would want to join the RCA, he would be KICKED OUT and perhaps the RCA would put Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner in to Cherem because of his Mesianic Beliefs too.
The “Moshiach freaks” in Chabad are a minority. Unfortunately, they are a VERY vocal minority. Most Chabadniks do NOT proclaim “yechi adonenu”, in fact, many just laugh at this ridiculous practice.
There are plenty of Lunatics in every town and in every Mental Hospital and there is no need not any justification to put every Mental Patient in to Cherem. They need medication, not a Cherem.
Everyone who watches the You-Tube video can easily see clearly that these clowns are jumping around like fools and no one in their right mind could ever takes such clowns seriously so what kind of SHTUS is it to take someone who is visibly off their rocker and put them in Cherem instead of putting them in to a Strait Jacket.
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner need to be more compassionate towards the Mentally Ill and have some Ahavas Yisroel for those 2 fools who need a Refuah Shelema.
I live Down Under and I know the inside story that Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner did this is a Fit of Anger without thinking.
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner should rather take Anger Management Classes where he could learn that when you are angry you don’t put a Mentally ill clown in to Cherem, just like you don’t violently shake a baby in an anger fit.
No one in their right mind can ever take those to dancing you-tube fools seriously, so why bother giving them all this attention when they are obviously out of their mind?
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner should get busy doing something tangible and substantial for the community instead of picking in ostracizing those who need psychiatric medical attention.
Not too long ago the RCA, virtually of put Chabad in to Cherem by them making it an official requirement that anyone who wants to join the RCA can only join if he dunces the Lubavitcher Rebbe as Moshiach.
Shortly afterwards, Rabbi Trooper who was one of the most prominent members of the RCA was caught with his pants down and he has since been ousted himself.
Let this serve as a warning to Rabbi Telsner, if he doesn’t want to be ousted himself in the same way as Rabbi Trooper since we all know that Australia has their own fair share of such scandals too.
#50 Moose613 – I’m sorry to say, but the fact totally and unequivocally are against you. You are dreaming. Wake up!
#53 HashkofasHatorah – I dido what someone else state to you. Your comments show that you are FAR FROM HASHOFAS HATORAH! You statements are shamefully and the root is Sinas Chinam! You are causing Golus to be extended! STOP HATING!!!!
#43 A600KiloBear – I really see that you are a very good person and I wish you much Brachas and D’vekus to Hashem. However, I along with the majority of klal Yisroel (including Lubavitchers that I am friendly with) believe that the majority of Chabadniks do believe in a 2nd coming of the Rebbe (sorry for stating it that way). Either we are right and you are a minority or we are wrong and then there is a silent majority that is guilty of not speaking out in protest. If the meshugist would see that they are out numbered by a powerful majority that will not tolerate sheker they would change. Take it to heart.
#29. Your #4 is a pure bobbe maisse. The Alter Rebbe began writing his Shulchon Oruch in 1770, on the instructions of the Mezritcher Maggid, long before the trouble with the Vilner Gaon started. It had nothing to do with the Gaon, and your story makes no sense anyway: chasidim had access to the same seforim as misnagdim did, so why would davka they need a new SA?
The fact was that everybody needed a new SA, because the old one was now over 200 years old and much work of the achronim had to be taken into account. So the Alter Rebbe wrote one, and it attracted interest not just from chasidim but from misnagdim too; that is why the Chayei Odom wrote his sefer, to provide the misnagdim with a replacement for the SA Horav.
#30, if you were there when the Lubavitcher Rebbe heard this song and didn’t stop it, then what’s your complaint against those who sing it? Surely you don’t imagine you’re smarter or frummer than the Rebbe?! If you think he had no problem with it, then why should you?
On the other hand, if you’re a meshichist who sings the song and thinks he has the Rebbe’s permission, let me tell you that *I* was there in 5744, when the Rebbe had finally had enough with this song and stopped it dead in its tracks. RSBW started singing it, and he didn’t get more than a few bars in when the Rebbe started speaking again, and made it clear that he never wanted to hear it again. He said the tune was a good one, but it could be sung without words.
#34, You are wrong; what that very prominent ANTI-meshichist rabbi said was 100% within halacha. Tzadikim do indeed run the world: tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem. Tzadikim are called with Hashem’s own name; it’s an open Rashi in chumash that Yaacov Ovinu was called “Keil”. And the Kedushas Levi says openly that it’s permitted to prostrate oneself to a tzadik. But nowhere is there a heter to defiantly break a fast.
#36, You are showing your own amhoratzus. No beis din is required to do this; a talmid chochom can be menadeh on his own authority.
And no, in R Telsner’s community there are BH no OPEN AND DEFIANT mechalelei shabbos; what people do privately letei’ovon is their own business. And as far as I know there is no intermarriage in his community. What happens in the rest of Melbourne is, as #45 says, no more his responsibility than that of all the other rabbonim of Melbourne. But these three individuals are his problem because even though they’re not welcome in his shul, they’re still part of his community, so it was up to him to declare them michutz lamachaneh.
#42, Do you really think that if there were a new Lubavitcher Rebbe these crazies would have recognised him?! They’d have done this no matter who was now Rebbe. So your proposal, whatever its merits, is not relevant to the current topic.
#49, Since when is the RCA the arbiter of anything in particular? And why on earth would an Australian rov want to join it? Meanwhile the Australian equivalent of the RCA has no problem with R Telsner or with any meshichist rabbi, so long as they keep Shulchon Oruch.
Milhouse,
There you go again!
“And the Kedushas Levi says openly that it’s permitted to prostrate oneself to a tzadik.”
Since you “claim” that the Bardichover “allows” what one would call avoda zara I”d like to see chapter and verse.Think you can do it?I don’t think so.
What you probably mean is pevzners collection of perversions and fables.Lovely.pevzer is also a meshichist.You are on the record in many places on the web claiming that there would be nothing wrong in claiming that yoshkeh is moshiach besides for the fact he was a rosho.You also claim that “second coming” is within the pale.Last but not least you claim that there is no dina demalchusa dina.
Borrowing a tool from your arsenal, it appears that you may be correct that a talmid chochom yochid can leyg a person in cheirem, the gemora in Moed Koton says so iirc,it even mentions a case where Rebbis maidservant put someone in cherem.
Be well and please stop trying to defend the indefensible i.e some of the goings on in Lubavitch amongst other things.Also if you can don’t give Sholom Ber W. a title of Reb.
Thank you
A600KiloBear:
“only once have I ever heard of any hostility toward a Jew of another origin who is shomer Torah umitzvos”
You haven’t been around enough. I am privileged to be connected with a number of frum people who live or have lived in out-of-town communities who have personally experienced hostility (for example: being told “I will run you out of town!”) and divisiveness from Chabad representatives. When I discussed this issue with an adam gadol (in terms of how I should conduct myself in dealings with them), he surprised me by nodding and saying quietly a descriptive term which I will not repeat because I am not here to offend. This adam gadol directed me: kabde’hu v’chashde’hu. (My surprise most likely came from my own secular-influenced ideas of what is “PC” – heh.)
Yochi:
“You are obviously basing your opinion on 1 or maybe 2 places!!”
It appears to me that I have offended you and even angered you (unless I am misreading your tone and multiple exclamation points). I’m not sure what made the observation you made obvious to you, but it so happens that you are incorrect. My own observations were made based on 7-8 Chabad “rebbetzins” as well as numerous visiting girls and several years worth of “shluchos” who grew up in (FFB) chabad homes outside NY. I am aware that I don’t speak of all of Chabad (I’m not that stupid despite what you may think:]). My comments in this regard were also not meant to minimize in any way the admirable hospitality that many Chabad houses display throughout the world especially in far-flung destinations. I believe Softwords came close to the mark in his response to your comment. Nevertheless, the trend is disturbing, to say the least.
Brooklyn Guy:
“Also saying “chasidim,ein mishpocha” the way you did makes it sound that Chabad is not “family” with the rest of am yisroel and that is not what is meant.”
Sadly, this seems to me to have become the case. Chabad seems to me to have separated itself and created it’s own “camp”. It doesn’t sit right with me, personally. I shudder when I think that the second bet hamikdash was destroyed because of sin’at chinam… Are we as a people worthy of a bet hamikdash in our day?
#61, you want chapter and verse? Kedushas Levi, parshas Shoftim, d”h “velashemesh”. And yes, I did get it from R Pevzner’s sefer; do you claim that he’s lying, and that it isn’t where he says it is? If not, then your opinion of him is irrelevant, a real argumentum ad hominem.
By the way, you are misrepresenting my position about Yoshke. There is no reason to believe that Yoshke was a rosho, and therefore I see no reason at all why it would be ossur to believe that he was and will be the Moshiach. It seems a rather foolish thing to believe, but there’s no issur in believing foolish things, such as homeopathy. Shabsai Tzvi, on the other hand, was certainly a rosho, and THAT is the only reason why it’s ossur to believe that he’s moshiach. (Even such a belief can be muttar, IF the person also believes that all the stories about STz’s aveiros are lies, and that he really was completely observant.)
Milhouse,
You are interesting to say the least.
So in your opinion am yisroel that has always had a revulsion against Yoshkeh and always knew that a Second Coming was a Christian belief is totally wrong?
From the same Milhouse who won’t learn Torah on the 25’th of December because “it gives koiach to Yoshkeh”!
You are just trying to be funny,right??
Btw, the “fables by Pevzner” is a collection of the wild and the bizarre, all to “prove” that Lubavitch is not so strange after all.
I will check out the Kedushas Levi’s mareh mokom IY”H but will tell you right now that even if what pevzner claims it says there, which is highly unlikely, it does not make an iota of difference.It would be avodo zorah to prostrate oneself in the way of worship to anything besides Hashem.Big people can also make mistakes and this could, though highly unlikely be an example of why the Chasidic movement faced opposition.This view is clearly not a view accepted by anyone!
(Which is the basis of pevzners book, collect all the shitos hadechechuyos and somehow convince people that if one group and milhouse you know exactly which group, does ALL those shitos dechuyos, it’s acceptable.Velo hi.Every kehila has one or two “strange” shitos, however if one kehilla decided to do all these strange things together they would be totally beyond the pale.Actually, that’s basically where “that certain group” is today, and you whole Yoshkeh defense is to allow al pi torah a second coming for their leader veda”l)
Am Yisroel HASN’T always had a revulsion against Yoshke. On the contrary, Chazal seem to have got on well with his brother Yaakov and his other talmidim, and to have had no problem with this group until they got taken over by goyishe antisemites. Yoshke the person was a frummer yid; but Yoshke the avodah zarah is another story. It’s not his fault he got turned into an AZ by a bunch of goyim; Yaacov Ovinu was afraid of the same fate! But this AZ is a koach hatum’oh, which draws power from Torah learnt on the evening when its followers celebrate its birth.
The Kedushas Levi is there, and says what it says, and that means you have NO RIGHT to call it AZ. If you identify yourself with the opposition that the Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim faced, and you think that opposition was justified, then you have no hope and there is no point in discussing anything with you, because you are already in gehennom. If you dare to suggest that the Kedushas Levi is not sufficient support for an expression that seems strange to you, then you are worse than any meshichist. The GRO bizmano made a terrible mistake, but he made it leshem shomayim; what is your excuse?
“If you identify yourself with the opposition that the Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim faced, and you think that opposition was justified, then you have no hope and there is no point in discussing anything with you, because you are already in gehennom”
Coming from the same guy who said: “If not, then your opinion of him is irrelevant, a real argumentum ad hominem.”
IIRC correctly, this pvezners claims that one may bow down to a pic of a tzadik because the tzadik is so bottel to Hashem it’s like bowing down to Hashem.iirc correctly quoting the Berditchivoer for this.Pure unadulterated avodo zorah!But not much different fom “atsmus umahus vos hot zech areigeshtelt in a guf”
There is precedent for wild statements even from Rishoinim taking Yad Hashem literally.Therefore Am Yisroel should allow this??
Btw, in light of the current videos,I”m not so confident that the Gr”o made a terrible mistake.In fact apparently this is part of what bothered him and obviously not chasidim yireim ushleimim.As time goes by we see how right horav shach was by trying to save chachma bino vodaas from their temporary insanity
It’s unfortunate but truw that the only place in Orthodoxy that is battling “boreinuniks” and meshichists gone overboard is in Milhouse home turf.
I guess that explains the heated defense of what Riskin called “rabbi” yoshkeh and the idea of worshiping anything but Hashem
#66, kabel es ho’emes mimi she’omro. But if you won’t accept the Kedushas Levi as a valid source then there’s no point; this is what Torah says, and if you don’t like it then you’re not arguing Torah any more but your own protestantism. Pevzner brings real sources, and if you disagree with his conclusion you have to explain away those sources. But even if you do, ALL that gets you is that you can disagree with his conclusion; you still can’t deny that the sources exist.
Milhouse – I’ve learned from friends that work in publishing, “NEVER TRUST A QUOTE!” Look it up. Check the source yourself. People often tend to quote a source out of context or even misquote. I’ve even heard of author stating either “I’ve heard that he says something like that there”, “He’s says it somewhere”, etc. LOOK IT UP! Especially when the quote sounds outrageous!
אין דבר חדש תחת השמש
Here are some quotes on the confrontation between Hassidim and the Misnagdim I found on the net. If these are accurate then we see that things haven’t changed much.
“Opponents of Hasidim held that Hasidim viewed their rebbes in an idolatrous fashion.”
“The Vilna Gaon’s strongest opposition was to the founder of Chabad-Lubavitch, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi (1745-1812) and to the founder of Breslov Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (1772-1810).”
A contemporary Gadol (not Rav Shach, z’l) stated that the only forms of Chassidus today that are still treif are Chabad and Breslov.
As we see, these are the ONLY Chassidus with questionable believes and behaviors. Even the Chassidim hold this way.
#70, If someone says that these are the only forms of chasidus that are “still” treif, then what is he saying? That in the old days all chassidus was treif, ch”v? That the Baal Shem Tov was treif? That the Maggid, the Baal hatanya vehaShulchon Oruch, the Noam Elimelech, the Kedushas Levi, the Baal Haflo’oh, the Toldos Yaacov Yosef, and all the other talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov and the Maggid were all treif?! This is whom you call a “godol”? This is an apikores! This is a sheigetz!
EVERY honest Jew today admits that the early opponents to chassidus were wrong. They meant it lesheim shomayim, but they made a terrible mistake and acted against halacha. They thought that this new “kat” would soon ditch observance of halacha, just as the previous two mass movements had done; they proved to be wrong.
When R Aizik Volozhiner found himself working together with the Tzemach Tzedek against the Haskoloh, he realised that the chassidim were still frum several generations after their founding, and in fact were more frum than the misnagdim, and therefore that the hisnagdus had been wrong.
R Chaim Brisker said over 100 years ago that there is no longer such a thing as a misnaged leshem shomayim: everybody whose hisnagdus was leshem shomayim had realised that it was a mistake and had stopped being a misnaged. Anyone who was still against chassidim, R Chaim said, was just a hatemonger. Al achas kamo vekamo today, when more than a century has passed since R Chaim and chassidim, including Chabad and Breslov, rather than frying out, are still more medayek and more machmir in halacha than almost anyone else. When a cholov-akum eater, who goes to movies and has girlfriends and shaves, vechuleih vechuleih (many more laxities in halacha that I will not specify), dares to open his mouth against chassidim and chassidus, what kind of face does that have?
Milhouse – let me clarify. The point was that in the beginning of Chassidus the main opposition was in regards to an ideology that has remained only by Chabad and Breslov and that is in regards to how they view their Rebbes.
I have never meet any other Chassidus that has shares the same outlook regarding their Rebbes as do Chabad and Breslov.
You need to wake up and realize that for the most part the rest of Klal Yisrael (Chassidim and Misnagdim) are together. The reason is because there are more similarities than differences.
On the other hand, Chabad has separated itself from the rest of the Charedei Velt. I could go very much into it, but here is not the place and it is self evident.
I think that if you see that everybody else is on one side of the boat while you’re on the other side maybe you should contemplate making adjustments and join our side. Unless, of course, you feel that the rest of us are evil.
🙂
“Chabad and Breslov, rather than frying out, are still more medayek and more machmir in halacha than almost anyone else. When a cholov-akum eater, who goes to movies and has girlfriends and shaves, vechuleih vechuleih (many more laxities in halacha that I will not specify), dares to open his mouth against chassidim and chassidus, what kind of face does that have? ”
Milhouse,
You are mixing apples and oranges.Are you comparing “cholov akum” and “shaving” to having girlfriends?.
No upstanding yeshiva boy has girlfriends.Maybe it’s common in a certain mostly minority neighborhood in Brooklyn.I don’t know, but from what it appears, it seems the standards there are very lax, to say the least.But then again, they don’t belong to the group who you accuse of “shaving” and eating “cholov akum”.
But let’s analyze the cholov akum accusation that you level so cavalierly:I don’t know of any yeshiva boy who eats treif lehachis, I”m sure you know the gemora in Chulin that a mumar letei’ovon is kosher to shecht if someone else checks his knife, since he will not do an issur of shechting improperly once he has a kosher knife in his hand.The same applies today, with OU dairy so widely available that no frum person will drink “treif” milk.If so you must mean what is known today as “cholov stam”.Ah!Well, don’t you think that R’Moshe Feinstein, who was mattir it can be relied upon????I mean R’Moshe is seen by many,many maybe most frum Jews today as the final arbiter on issurei sekillah, vekorres and mamzeirus!!!!Are you accusing someone relying on R’Moshes psak be’issur derabonon of eating cholov akum?!Don’t give me what R’Moshe said about a “baal nefesh”,anyone on the ‘net is not a baal nefesh (not saying it’s ossur, but a baal nefesh he isn’t).
The same goes for shaving.R’Moshe was mattir machines within parameters and his son R’Dovid will check your machine and tell if it’s kosher.
Yeah,yeah, I know someone, out of thin air made up that cholov akum is moilid sefeikos beemuna.We, actually have a Torah and that Torah tells us to listen to a psak of a rov ,if that rov can be pasken to be matir an isho leshuk without a Get he can be mattir a sofek derabonon.That’s what it says in Torah.
(for those who want to look it up, many rabbonim, starting from Rishoinim and Achroinim held that cholov akum is muttar where there is no chashash of unkosher milk i.e this goes into the clause of “botel hataam botel hoisur” just like the Shulchan Oruch paskens that one may drink uncovered water nowadays, since there is no chashash that a snake might have drunk from it and poisoned it.R’Moshe held that EVEN according to the machmirim, it is muttar, because the idea that they will be prosecuted for mixing in unkosher milk makes it in to a type of eidus that is good enough for cholov akum, that only needs a “yotseh venichnas” .i.e we don’t need eydei kiyum.
Lastly, today there is a big problem with all milk including cholov yisroel because of a vetenerian procedure that may make the cow a “treifah”.
Milhouse – not to put salt on a wound, but adding to Brooklyn Guy statement. You talk about being Machmir as if that makes someone holier.
Furthermore, you claim to be more machmir, but you rely on a Kula of a Daas Yachid as far as Isur Niddah (I.E. Mikvah). If not for Rav Shach your wives would be tamei according to Rov Deyos. Now since he came out with a statement that it is asur to go to a Chabad mikvah because they rely on a daas yachid, most Chabad mikvaos had to modify their mikvas to be yotzei all dayos. Furthermore, the Chassidishe poskim in general are more meikel in hilchos nidda than the Litvaks. Does that make us more righteous than you?
Another point:
Those meikel in Kashrus – may be chiyav a karbon chatas.
Those meikel in Shaving – may be chiyav a karbon chatas.
Those meikel in Niddah – may be chayiv Karus and producing Bnei Niddahs!
Pick your choice!
Softwords,
You are not accurate with your post.
The argument between the regular way of building a mikva and the Lubavitch way is where to place the mikva holding the rain water, which is not used for actual immersion but makes the pool used for dipping which is tap water into a kosher mikva.There has to be a connective pipe between the two pools so that the tap water pool “kisses”(hashoko) the rain water, which is the kosher mikva.
The regular method is to build two pools side by side.Lubavitch build the two pools on top of each other.Each side claims that their method avoids more potential halachik pitfalls,but I think that everyone agrees that the other method is kosher.
The reason for this relatively new argument btw is that once upon a time there was much less sanitary awareness and money so the pool used was either adjacent to a river, which would be kosher or a pool using rain water.In the last hundred years a need for more hygenic and the ability to warm the water arose.With a kosher rainwater pool connected to another pool one can change the tap water pool all the time.
Whatever the exact case I don’t think any side calls offspring of a mother that used such a mikva “bnei niddah”
I think Lubavitch may have brought up this issue and shot themselves in the foot by building mikvaos only to their specifications and thereby alienating themselves a bit from the common custom.What they should have done and now very often do is build a mikva according to all specifications.
Now about your other points:Being meikel in kashrus will generally not get to a chiyuv korban chatos because a Chatos comes for something that is a chiyuv kores if done bemeizid which is done beshogeg.Most kashrus problems do not include chiyuv koreis, which would be eating Cheilev and Dam hanefesh, eating non kosher meat is an issur lav and even Milhouse agrees (hopefully)that cholov akum is an issur derabonnon.(though I saw some purim toireh from a rov who should have chochmo bino vodaas, but apparently doesn’t, that based on some mumbo jumbo, an issur derabonon is worse than an issur deoraysa)
Shaving:Again would be a couple of lavin, but no kores, hence no korban chatos.
Brooklyn Guy – I see I need to do my research before commenting. Although, I of course knew the discrepancy between the mikvaos, non-the-less, ironically I was relying on Chabadniks as to Rav Shach’s statement that they are Bnei Niddah. I should have known better. Here is was Rav Shach, z”l stated in such regards:
“They distorted my words on purpose to damage and libel me for they think that from this they will derive some benefit and gather more votes in these elections. And when they claimed that I called them the children of an impure woman, I testify before heaven and earth that I never said words such as these but only criticized their effort to build a ritual bath that was not in line with the standards of the Chazon Ish” (wikipedia)
You second point was well taking. The main point I was tying to make was that one should not sit on a high horse because he is Machmir. Machmir is not a yardstick for who is righteous and who is not.
Thanks for your corrections! 🙂
Regarding the above (off-topic) discussion regarding Cholov Akum, some points need clarification.
Rav Bick ZTL, Rav Henkin ZTL and others all disagreed with Rav Moshe on many occasion, and they were entitled. But unless you are qualified to agree with one psak over another, and in the base sense of a prevailing halachic behavior in your family or community, you should follow whoever is the bigger posek (or poskim), and that often would mean Rav Moshe. However, that having been said, there is no such Halachic status as “Posek Hador”. Rav Moshe ZTL was great beyond great, but there is no reason to consider his psakim more authoratative than let’s say Rav Aharon Kotler or the Chazon Ish. There would be no reason, let’s say, to follow Rav Moshe’s shiurim for the Pesach seder than those of the Chazon Ish. In fact, Roshei Yeshiva and Poskim, such as Rav Hutner, Rav Eli Meyer Bloch of Telz, the Debreciner Rav, the Chelkas Yaakov and others, sided with the Satmar Rebbe over Rav Moshe regarding the obligatory size of a mechitzah in a shul, and/or the permissibility of artificial insemination, which were the two big disagreements that those Gedoim had in halachah. It was indeed Rav Hutner who approached the Satmar Rav asking him to write a refutation to Rav Moshe’s psak about the Mechitzos. You will not find the phrse “posek hador” anywhere in any meaningful way. The Tzitz Eliezer uses it all over the place in his titles, and, I believe, either the Teshuvos Maharshal writes it among the titles to the Ramah, or the Teshuvos Ramah about the Maharshal. But in any case, the title connotes no halachic status.
Unfortunately, many of those who use Rav Moshe’s psakim do so only when he is maikel. He permitted Cholov Yisroel (only b’shas hadchak – though they don’t pay attention to that part of the psak); he lowered the height of the Mechitzos — psakim such as these made life much easier for the Modern Orthodox, and even the out-of-town Orthodox communities. They believe they need Rav Moshe’s psakim to facilitate their mission as Modern Orthodox rabbis, or to be able to cater to the not-so-frum and do Kiruv. That is not a bad thing. A psak is a psak. However, when the same Rav Moshe prohibits Shabbos clocks (in most cases), or prohibits going to college, or paskens unequivocally that boys are prohibited m’doraisa to be “just friends” with girls, the same rabbonim with “Rav Moshe’s mechotzos” and cholov stam suddenly rely on “other poskim” (though in the case of boys being friends with girls, there are no poskim of anywhere near that stature who disagree with Rav Moshe). Part of it is due, too, to the fact that, at least in America, the other two personalities who were considered Gedolei Hador of that caliber were Rav Aharon Kotler and the Satmar Rav ZTL. Because of Rav Aharon’s stance on college and secularism in general, and the Satmar Rav’s stance on Zionism, there was no way in the world that those two Torah giants were going to be considered authoratative in what constituted the Orthodox community in America in those days. Instead, Rav Aharon was largley ignored, as it was predicted the followers of his hashkofo would become “mere tourist attractions” (thats a quote from Rav Y.B. Soloveichik in his “Five Addresses” about who he refers to as “seperatist Orthodox”. Rav Aharon was the leader of that Hashkafa), and the Satmar Rav was passed off as extreme by these people. In other words, it was “safe” for people to accept Rav Moshe and ONLY Rav Moshe because once you accept someone’s psakim in hilchos shabbos and kashrus, for example, you are forced to at least think about considering the fact that their stance against college or Zionism comes with as least as much authority. Of course, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L deserved all the honor and respect that he received. He was a Gaon among Geonim and a Tzadik among Tzadikim, and one of the great Halachic authorities of our times. Thats not the issue. The issue is the fact that people pick and choose which Gaon-among-Geonim to follow when and because it is comfortable for them to do so.
The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber (and the Rema) as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah lmoshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thign applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
Because the Gezeirah was that a Jew has to supervise the milk, NOT that you have to have some kind of insurance that it is Kosher. Rav Moshe’s heter – however far one takes it – is to interpret the Gezeirah that any kind of insurance is sufficient to fulfill chazal’s gezeirah, which would make American milk cholov yisroel. But that itself is a matter of interpretation. If the Gezeirah was simply that you need a Jew supervising the milk, then even Rav Moshe would concede that even if you have reaosn to be comforatable that the milk is kosher, you still did not fulfill the gezeirah. In addition, even if you will accept Rav Moshe’s interpretation that the gezeirah is only that you need insurance not specifically Jewish supervision, who says that the laws are sufficient insurance that would satisfy chazal? If the penalty for violaitng the law is a fine, but the company will make more profit by violating the law, then how do we know that law is insurance? Very very often stores violate the Kosher Consumer laws. They put trief meat in the Kosher section etc, and they get fines that do nto deter them from being repeat offenders. Then there is the question as to who says the laws are being honestly enforced? As a certina godol said about the heter of the inspectors: “You give me two hundred dollars and I’ll give you four inspectors.” What halachic basis is thee to believe the inspectors are doign their jobs, being that Akum have no ne’emanus haalchicly?
Rav Moshe’s Teshuva (YD:5) says simply that the heter to eat cholov stam is “only b’shas hadchak”. Its pretty short and sweet. And this letter coincides with the letter to Rabbi Weinfeld of Monsey as well. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, in a letter to a Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey, printed in “Hilchos Kashrus” by Rabbi B. Forst of Far Rockaway, explained what he meant with his “heter” for cholov stam. He says that even though there are rationales for saying that nowadays all dairy processed under government supervision has the status of cholov yisroel, it is still not proper to drink milk except under Jewish supervision, even if it is a bit more expensive or difficult to acquire. In a teshuva, someone – obvisouly not Rav Moshe – did put the titles on the teshuvos, and the title on this one says “Hidur l’hishtamesh b’cholov yisroel”, even though the Teshuva says it is indeed not merely a hidur but permissible b’shas hadchak. So the “yad zorim” did get in there, but its obvious they did not make up the Teshuva. In Rav Moshes subsequent Teshuvus, particularly the one in the last volume of IM, where he says his heter for Cholov Stam is only meant “bshas hadchak.” Thats a quote.
Rav Moshe’s heter is that it is possible that American milk is NOT cholov stam but cholov yisroel. if you hold that it is permitted, you don’t need a heter. CY is not a chumrah, it is a l’chatchilah, and there is a big difference. Everyone should be makpid on cholv yisroel halachicly, even according to Rav moshe – he says this clearly – unless there are dire circumstances. Rav Moshe sayus clearly in more than one place that unless there is a shas hadchak or some kind of dire need, it is not proper to drink cholov stam. Rav Moshe had his reasons for not making rules enforcing what he held to be correct. Perhaps he felt that not everyone was holding, yet, by doing the right thing. Who knows. Rav Moshe’s psak in his seforim that non Cholov Yisroel is not permitted except in strained circumstances. The last Teshuva, on this, in fact, is to a Yeshiva.
I probably would have interpreted Rav Moshe’s early Teshuvos – the statement “baal nefesh yachmir” is ambiguous enough to merit such an interpretation, for sure. But Rav Moshe himself, in two places – a letter that was first published NOT in Igros Moshe, but in other places (most notably Rabbi Binyonim Forst’s Pischei Halachah) and the latest Igros Moshe, printed not too long ago, Rav Moshe himslef interprets what he means – and he states clearly that he means you cannot drink Cholov Stam unless its a shas hadchak. In the last volume of Igros Moshe there is a teshuva on cholov yisroel where he explains what he means in previous teshuvos. Rav Moshe says – writes, rather, in a few places, that his heter to drink cholov stam is not meant to be used l’chatchilah, but rather ONLY B’SHAS HADCHAK!. Those are his words, not mine, and, in more detail, is reiterated by him in a second place.
The issue of cholov yisroel does not have naything to do with minhag. Whether your family does or doesnt use cholov yisroel, there is still a halachah in shulchan aruch that says you have to keep it. And Rav Moshe says that bshas hadchak, if you must have cholov stam, there is a heter. According to Rav Moshe, that heter (a) applies to all of klal yisroel equally, and (b) is halachic, not minhag-driven, (c) applies ONLY bshas hadchak – not a heter to buy Hershy bars, and (d) is still to be used only by non “baalei nefesh”, which he says should not rely on the heter. R’ Moshe Feinstein after hearing that he ate cholov stam – it sickened him such that he threw up.
As far as Utensils are concerned, the rule is, that when you cook something in a utensil, the utensil takes on the status of the item cooked in it. So if you coooked pork, the utensil takes on the status of pork, such that whatever you cook in it has the stats of pork; if you cook cholov akum in a pot, then whatever is cooked in that pot gets the status of cholov akum. Of course, the rules of Ben Yomo apply across the board as well – for the first 24 hours, the pot retains the status of the item cooked in it even bdoeved; afterwards, it is assur lchatchilah to cook in the pot, but bdieved the food may be eaten. That applies whether the food cooked in the pot was pork or cholov akum or whatever.
Milhouse:
More and more I wonder about your presentation of Chabad ideology (and by extension those who taught you?):
Yoshke was a frummer yid, about whom it’s mutter, if stupid, to believe was Moshiach (I’ve heard the same idea from others in & out of Chabad, so by itself this isn’t so strange);
Anyone who disagrees with Chassidus is automatically in hell. [If you identify yourself with the opposition that the Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim faced, and you think that opposition was justified, then you have no hope and there is no point in discussing anything with you, because you are already in gehennom.];
Anyone who disagrees with you is a “protestant” [if you won’t accept the Kedushas Levi as a valid source then there’s no point; this is what Torah says, and if you don’t like it then you’re not arguing Torah any more but your own protestantism.];
Chabadniks are (mostly) waiting for the Second Coming of a Moshiach who first came and left in an unredeemed world.
Chabad (as you portray it) seems to associate itself with Catholicism. How exactly you think this is doing the cause of Chabad any good is beyond me.
Now, I haven’t seen R’ Pevzner inside (yet; I did find a copy, but it has disappeared in the book heaps – you know my house), but I looked up the Kedushas Levi, and yes he does say as you say. However, is it true that Pevzner is using the KL as a source for davening to a picture [card] of the Rebbe? If so, that would seem to go directly against the Kedushas Levi, that it’s solely because the Tzaddik is metzuveh in, and completely absorbed in, Torah, that he becomes a fit object for bowing to. The sun and moon, as non-sentient objects, are not fit objects for bowing.
I discussed this on my blog over a year ago, albeit only from secondary sources with something of an agenda themselves.
If Pevzner is using this as a source to support bowing to a picture, well, the only way I can thus see the KL as a source for him, is analogous to the Rema’s wine teshuva – it’s a fantasy rationale (the KL produces a fantasy rationale which happens to go against halacha, like being metaher a sheretz) to say that such people are acting in good faith, and shouldn’t be rejected. So Pevzner goes one better, and also invents a heter for something that everyone else would reject.
Here’s the Kedushas Levi:
ולשמש או לירח אשר לא צויתי (יז, ג). עיין רש”י אשר לא צויתי ‘לעבדם’. וכן שינו הע”ב זקנים לתלמי המלך בהעתיקם התורה לו (מגילה ט, ב). והנראה, כי מצינו בתורה שהשתחוו לצדיק, כגון עובדיה לאליהו (מ”א יח, ז), כי הצדיקים יש להם תורת ה’, ומצינו שקרא הקב”ה ליעקב אבינו אל (בראשית לג, כ; מגילה יח, א), רצה לומר מחמת שקיים כל התורה היה בבחינת ‘אל’, כמו כן כל הצדיקים מחמת ציווי התורה יש להם בחינה זו, ומותר להשתחוות להם. אבל השמש והירח אשר אין להם ציווי תורתו הקדושה אסור להשתחוות להם. וזהו לשמש או לירח ‘אשר לא צויתי’, כלומר שאין להם הציווי שלי, היינו התורה שניתנה לישראל