One of the statistics that was released during a stormy weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday was the fact that 27% of the nation’s first graders this year are members of the chareidi community, attesting to the growth of this segment of the population.
The meeting was accompanied by raised voices and tempers as the secular and chareidi ministers discussed [argued] the issue of contributing to Israeli society, military service as opposed to bringing large families into the world and being involved in torah life and chessed.
In 1960, the chareidim only composed 8% of the nation’s first graders, now having over tripled in size Baruch Hashem.
Taking a firm position in support of the value of having large families and raising many children was Deputy Minister of Health Yaakov Litzman.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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30 Responses
“Israeli society, military service as opposed to bringing large families into the world and being involved in torah life and chessed.”
I guess the keyword here is “opposed to”. Why can’t they do both?
This also implies that those who to serve in the military and are involved in society (whatever that means) are not involved in Torah and Chesed.
I’d take a Hesder boy for my son-in-law any day of the week.
1. Unless the government finds a way to reduce the number and growth rate of Hareidim, zionism is doomed. Their goal of a land where Jews can be free from the yoke of Torah will be in the dustbin of history.
2. There are ways the zionists can oppose a Hareidi takeover, such as restricting transfer payments from overseas, a tax on yeshiva students, seriously restricting non-veterans from various social benefits (such as medical care), and of course, conscription without accomodation of religious preferences.
3. While frum Jews may have to fight for survival (hopefully not with guns, but it may come to that), we also should be getting ready for taking over the country and developing the skills necessary to run a country, as opposed to the skill set necessary to survive as a marginalized minority. R. Yosef and Shas have been very active for over a generation is making the transition.
Akuperma,
2. is plain nonsense
3. you want to make us believe that today’s government & judicial system (with the Barak’s le mineihem) have the “skills to run a country”.
Into the ground, maybe!
So far religious leaders have been proven to have much more achrayus towards our fellow yidden , and less indulgence towards our murderous cousins.
Keep up your posts, anyway!
This does not make sense.
If every year there are fewer and fewer chillonim born and more charedim, then the number of people disappointed with the change is going to shrink and shrink and the problem will go away…
…until there’s only one old chilloni left and he is niftar and then bye bye problem!
Since when is serving in the army “opposed to” being involved with Torah and Chesed??? When a child of mine was recently hospitalized, there were a number of Chareidi organizations that came around with food for parents, toys for children, etc., but there were also groups of soldiers – both Frum and not-yet-Frum, as well as students from a non-Chareidi Frum girl’s Ulpana, who came around as well to try to cheer up the patients (both Chareidi and otherwise) in the Pediatric ward. Yes, certain Chareidi groups do a lot of Chesed, but they have no monopoly
#2 akuperma posted:
“Unless the government finds a way to reduce the number and growth rate of Hareidim, zionism is doomed. Their goal of a land where Jews can be free from the yoke of Torah will be in the dustbin of history.”
The goal of Zionism is a state for the Jews. We are perfectly happy including hareidim in that category. If the hareidim follow your advice in # 3, they will be indistinguishable from the “Zionists”.
For example, you write that the hareidim should be “developing the skills necessary to run a country”. That means a secular education, as well as military service, since both are necessary to run a country. Israelis would happily embrace any hareidi willing to do this, of course.
#2- faced with the prospect of waking up after the next election and seeing Shas forming the government, and a religious zionist leader being the head of the opposition, and the secular parties being “minor factions” trading their votes for patronage crumbs, the HILONIM will feel desperate. They will not smile and hand over the keys without a fight. In most other countries, such radical changes rarely occur peacefully.
I didn’t say the current government has the skills to run a country. However within the lifetime of some people alive today, frum Jews will be able to take control of Eretz Yisrael, and the fact that we are taking over from fools and incompetents isn’t a heter to be foolish and incompetent ourselves.
akuperma #7 – Why do you say that such changes don’t take place peacefully? In most functioning democracies, such changes are peaceful. In Israel itself, as a matter of fact, there is historical precedent in the Herut party’s takeover in 1977 – until then, the Israeli Left had been in charge, from the founding of the country. Once they lost, though, they handed over power to the winner, in an ideological change at least as radical as having Orthodox Jews in charge. Why so little faith in the reliliance of Israeli democracy?
an Israeli Yid
#8 – At present in Israel, both parties, virtually all judges, and virtually everyone in control of the economy, is a secular Ashkenazi. The change will be an Israel in which the two leading parties will be the hareidim and the religious zionists, probably an entirely different legal system, and a radical shift in economic control. While most hilonim will accelerate their natural rate of decrease by emmigrating, they won’t be happy about abandoning a country they’ve lived in for a century.
In America the change from the system based on your status is society was determined by “yihus” to one in which it was based on merit and wealth, required two wars, the last of which left half the country in ruins. Russia and China have yet to recover from its revolutions. Britain survived since the change was gradual, and furthered by two pyrrhic victories and the largely peaceful loss of an empire.
The change in 1977 was very moderate. Much of Begin’s coalition had been in Rabin’s coalition.
Except for the knesset, there were no radical changes. Most of the leaders of Likud were from the same social group as the leaders of the socialist parties. They were all secularists.
What “Israeli democracy”? That is an oxymoron.
Which changes in Israeli society would Joseph like to see that would make it more democratic?
Would he think that its more democratic to institute some of the rules that he advocates? We could, for example, make it illegal for a woman to sit in front of a man, to walk in front of a man, etc, etc.
“Which changes in Israeli society would Joseph like to see that would make it more democratic?”
A good start would be to stop persecuting Torah Jews.
“Would he think that its more democratic to institute some of the rules that he advocates? We could, for example, make it illegal for a woman to sit in front of a man, to walk in front of a man, etc, etc.”
That wouldn’t be more democratic; but that would be more Torah oriented.
How are Torah Jews persecuted in Israel? What rights do we lack–that secular Israelis possess?
What Joseph wants is more privileges for Hareidim–which is hardly democratic.
And the real bottom line is that Joseph is not interested in Israel being a democracy at all; he would prefer his version of a “Torah-oriented” state.
starwolf, Like the story above indicated, and like I keep telling you — we are winning the demographic war. It is only a matter of time.
If the Hareidim win the demograpohic war, the only way for them to have a viable society will be for hareidim to get a secular educations, jobs of all types, serve in the military, etc. Unlike the US, there are no non-Jews to do these jobs for you, and if you became the great majority, there will be few nonHareidi Jews to do them either.
So let me see, Hareidim with educations, jobs, military service–sound pretty much like standard Israelis to me.
Meantime, would you mind answering the question–how are Torah Jews discriminated against?
As long as we have bread, salt, and water we have parnassa. We do not need any college or secular education to support ourselves. We seek no luxurious lifestyle. And by luxury I mean things you call “necessities”.
Open your eyes and you will easily see the persecution. It has existed since the founding of the state. Prominent examples include police thugs charging into innocent protesters. Yes, innocent protesters. That is just one small example.
Incorrect. The police thugs have charged into innocent protesters without the slightest provocation.
You only need so many physicians. And it doesn’t even have to be Jewish physicians. And for the few, some can be Jewish — they are the exceptions not the rule.
Same with your other examples.
And you don’t need a college degree to grind the wheat. Or to pave roads.
Nonsense. Believe it or not, there have been hareidi demonstrations that the police did not react to–they simply did not include any violence (like the one last week). The examples of hareidi violence are too numerous to recount. And of course, the films that one sees on TV that actually showed the violence–do you think that that was staged?
Of course, you can’t seem to find any other examples of how the rights of Torah Jews are discriminated against.
Your argument of how you would manage in a modern state is also ridiculous. You do need an education to design roads. As for growing wheat and paving roads-no you don’t need a degree. I still don’t see too many hareidim here doing that, do you? Why not? The point is that they get others to do that for them. If the hareidim were the principal population of the state, that would not be the case.
And that is certainly true for doctors? Who would be the doctors in your ideal state, Joseph? They need not be Jewish? Do you know how much a doctor makes in Israel? Who will do that for you, at those prices, if not mamlacti-dati and secular Israeli Jews? Who will educate those doctors? At wages that the mamlacti-dati and secular educator make? Or do you want Israeli medicine to come with American prices? I remind you that Rav Weiss was treated at Hadassah hospital recently (despite his followers referring to the doctors and staff there as “Nazis” and “Mengele”, by the way). How large do you think that his bill was, and how much do you think that the doctors’ fess were? The bottom line is that people like you have no idea of the complexities of running any of the services necessary for a society to function, and I am not referring to luxuries.
And I ask again, who will serve in your army?
The bottom line is that the hareidim are quite comfortable with the current situation; it allows them quite the comfort zone, for the time being. If they were a large majority, there would be no choice but to shoulder a large proportion of the responsibilities of running the state–which a great many would not feel comfortable doing.
But let’s get aback to basics. Do you even believe that there should be a Jewish State at all before the Mashiach? You have posted that you follow the Satmar Rebbe in this regard.
So in the end, not only are people of your hashkafa incapable of providing the basic services needed to run a modern state, they do not believe that we should have a state at all.
You’ve been watching too much from Hollywood. The live footage to anyone with their eyes open is innocent harmless protesters and bystanders being charged upon by police thugs.
You keeping hocking in chinik. Who said no education? I certainly have not. Educating for a trade is perfectly acceptable. And I’ve said being a physician is perfectly fine for a Jew.
Why, Joseph, you see? We can agree on something. Getting an education and being a physician is a great thing for a Jew to do–just as are paving roads and growing wheat. Unfortunately, the vast majority of our hareidi brothers here in Israel do not agree with us. I would be perfectly fine with them changing their minds on this issue. I wold certainly be happy with more hareidi physicians (and yes, there are some), as I believe that the hareidi community would be happier with people from their own community treating them.
By the way, there is plenty of live footage of hareidim smashing car windows, throwing rocks, and spitting at the recent demonstrations. Maybe you should get yourself a television.
Our brothers do NOT disagree with us. The footage is either a small handful of unaffialiated fools representing no one but magnified far far out of proportion by the media, or more likely imposters out to make Torah Jews look terrible. I’ll pass on the TV suggestion.
Really, Joseph–so our hareidi brothers are willing to work paving roads and growing wheat? Then whyever aren’t there more of them doing these things?
As far as your conspiracy theories “more likely imposters out to make Torah Jews look terrible”–
who are you gonna blame next? The government? All the secular folks, who have no trouble passing as hareidim? They take out their earrings, cut their hair, grow beards and payot, shop in mea shearim for the appropriate clothing, pick up a little Yiddish on the way to help them mingle with their co-demonstrators, all just to “make Torah Jews look terrible”.
Riiiiiight.
You seem to have picked up some secular education in your time. Didn’t it include geography? Denial is not a river in Africa……..
Yes, indeed. Have you offered any of them jobs, or are you talking hot air again?
They are no theories. It has long been known and established that the zionists put imposters out to stir the pot. They do it internally as well. Does the Rabin assassination mean anything to you on this subject?
There are plenty of jobs available in these sectors, and a great many do not require military service, or anything else. The moshavim in southwest Israel have been begging for workers.
Your conspiracy theories may be “well-known” in your circles, but they are hardly “established”. Rumors circulated in the bet medrash (I head from a relative who heard from a chasuvishe rebbe…..) do not “establish” anything.
So, you are free to believe the example of secret chiloni agents growing peyot that I described above, as well as the legions of chareidim that responded to the requests form the agricultural sector for more work.
No wonder that Deputy Minister Litzman wants to have gender-segregated mental hospitals here. If the kind of paranoia that you exhibit is common in the hareidi population, the waiting list should be considerable.
I am still waiting for all those other examples of discrimination against “Torah Jews”.
What a coincidence. an article on Arutz 7 online (Dec 2:) states: “Avocados Grow With No One to Pick Them”
“(IsraelNN.com) The shortage of agriculture workers could cost the avocado industry up to 40 million shekels, as the fruit on the trees have no one to pick them. Avocado exports could drop by as much as 20 percent, says the Director of the Fruit Growers Association, Ilan Eshel, noting that there has been an ongoing backlog in fruit-picking since the beginning of the season two months ago.”
The farmers have been bagging for help for quite some time. How many jobs do you want, Joseph?
I note you craftily deflected addressing the Rabin assassination point. The zionists are quite well known for their hit jobs. It is neither rumor nor speculation but rather established facts. The zionists have engaged in this despicable behavior since the founding of their failed, constantly at war, State.
Are these jobs in Chareidi areas? Areas with notable unemployment?
Actually the Eida HaChareidis refuses to take State money even that they are legally entitled to! Including for the Yeshivos.
The zionists have created a state of constant war.
You have the examples. You just need to take the earplugs out.
Constant war is indeed one of the many examples of the failure of the zionist state.
You can even be Mechallel Shabbos when Pekuach Nefesh is involved. If a Nazi was the only avenue for Pekuach Nefesh (as sometimes occurred during the holocaust) it was permissible to utilize that avenue. I don’t see why a zionist should be less than a Nazi in this regard.
Dovid wasnt in constant war. When specifically is an example of them using it without renumeration? Or was that just more hot air?
Additionally, they are subject to the zionist tax laws — sales tax, vat tax, income tax, etc. etc. So they have a right to benefit as much as the next guy.