I don’t know how to start. To say that I’m outraged would be an understatement. To say I’m disappointed? Ashamed? Still insufficient. Perhaps it’s a word that has yet to exist; I’m simply pained.
We all know that the Churban Habayis was caused by Sinas Chinam. We also know that Chillul Hashem isn’t forgiven only by death. But do we really know, or do we pretend to know?
The Chillul Hashem has been going on for 10 years now. The mainstream media has reminded us about this time after time, but we didn’t learn. Nothing seemed to be going too far. If it involved anything from desecrating the Torah, Bizayon Talmidei Chachamim, Mesiros to Chillul Shabbos, Nothing held them back. Perhaps they justify themselves by claiming that it is L’shem Shamayim. But what happened this week made me take out the pen I’ve never used before and write. I am writing because I am hurt.
I won’t talk about the pain those nine young Yesomim whose father was taken from this world so suddenly, and was then denied burial are suffering, or the trauma they will live with for the rest of their lives. I believe that is self-understood. Actually, I hope so. I will talk about a different aspect.
We all know that the Torah prohibits leaving a Meis out in the field longer than necessary. Some Poskim and Kehillos support this opinion even when it pertains to Kovod HaMeis. Baruch Hashem, Klal Yisroel, a nation known for its Chessed, has many Askanim and organizations who work with authorities tirelessly around the clock to ensure that proper Kovod HaMeis is met. They sometimes work with people who have never seen an orthodox Jew before, but after ample explanation have come to understand the concept. I will bring an example.
This year, Governor Paterson planned a huge cut for the NYC Medical Examiners office’s budget. They responded by threatening to close some of their offices, which would result, according to them, in delaying burial for the Jewish people who make this a major priority. Organizations including the OU, Misaskim, the Chevra Kadisha of the Vaad HaRabbonim of Queens, and the JCRC of New York stepped up their efforts to lobby that it shouldn’t be enacted. They explained to officials such as Governor Paterson and then Majority leader Malcolm Smith how important it is for us to dignify a Niftar. They understood and acted accordingly. (See article HERE on YWN)
How is it, may I ask, that people who grew up in a different society, people who don’t really understand our unique and special religion, understand this concept, and some of us Rachmanim don’t? What are these officials supposed to think when reading the NY Post report? That Jews have a double standard? What explanation will the Askanim give those coroners to avert an autopsy when shown the Times Herald-Record article?
No, I am not blaming anyone here. I am not affiliated with either party, and I am not writing to defend or blame either side. I simply do not understand what they thought – if they thought. The Torah punished its most evil criminals with stoning, yet warned not to delay their burial. What crime did this meis commit other than being part of another faction? Why didn’t he deserve to get proper Kovod Ha’achron to his eternal rest just like all of us desire?
We should be ashamed of ourselves, how far we have gone, playing with Neshomos – with fire!
(NOTE: This editorial is in reference to a particular (split) Chassidus which delayed the Kevura of another Jew for an entire day, due to fighting amongst themselves. This incident was reported in the media; NY Post, Times Herald Record, MidHudsonNews and others.)
(Shulem Rosenbaum – YWN)
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38 Responses
I read with great interest of your response and find it to be like someone who lets his friend drive drunk and then wakes up when he finally hurts someone.
you’re ashamed of everyone else, when you should only be ashamed of yourself.
Where was your voice when all this started? Did you go to the “rebbes” that dont condone their childrens actions ?
this isnt a new thing and your letter to the public has failed miserably to get any new reaction from me and from every level headed frum or non-frum person that knows of this failure.
You should be ashamed because you didnt say anything about this from the beginning. The people who follow these “rebbes” are people who live in a world closed to the idea of thinking for themselves. They follow a leader or follow the rules of the street. not very bright, if you ask me.
How can you expect these chassidim to be any better than their leaders. Dont say youre ashamed of society when you should have spent your time blasting the origin of the problem. Did you make an editorial about that ?
but that would be chutzpadik, wouldnt it ? so therefore its “societies” fault. My fault and your fault.
you make no sense. your right that its wrong, thats where I agree with you, but you woke up a bit too late. If you want to write something, send a letter to the people responsible for their childrens actions.
True, this is a vary sad situation, but, do you know the facts?
Did you do your homework before pointing fingers?
Have you checked your facts before writing this bias article insulting thousands of holy people that belong to this Kehile and count as a nice portion of Am Yisruel?
The same Torah that forbids what you described was supposedly done also guides and teaches us how and when we can label and accuse anyone of any wrongdoing and I don’t think that The Times Herald Record or the disgraceful NY Post tabloid are considered as reliable sources to base your accusations. True, some of your claims have actually been reported by those and other Media outlets, but how about the fact that those claims have simply been reported to them by some members of the “other” side??? (which is BTW also a terrible crime and Chilul Hashem and deserves the exact same condemnation from you.)
As someone that has the Z’chiye and privilege to belong to this holy community you wrongfully indicted, I am personally insulted. My hope is that your goal was L’shem Shumayim and no hidden motives were behind it.
Now “some” facts:
1) The K’vire was not delayed by even 1 minute since the family was waiting for the Nifter’s father to arrive back from Argentina where he spent the last few days. He arrived approximately 1:00 PM and at that time the family already made their decision and knew exactly where the K’vire will take place. So therefore no Bizoyen Hames has taken place.
2) The Satmar Kehile has a cemetery in NJ and they always had the option of burying him there. There was never any doubt that the Nifter will rest in peace that same day; the only question was if he would have the privilege to be buried in the KJ cemetery that belongs to one side or in NJ.
3) The KJ Kehile was willing to bury him in their own cemetery although the Nifter was unfortunately one of the major players in the fight against the More D’asre of KJ – the Satmar Rebbe (which is BTW also a sin!) Their only demand was that the father of the Nifter should promise that he will sign arbitration by a Beis Din and he will withdraw his court case against that exact same cemetery where he wanted his son to be buried. Unfortunately the father didn’t want this fight to go to a Din Torah.
Should god help that this ugly fighting should end soon and we should be Zocha in the near days to the coming of the Messiah, Umein.
So true. The problems are not only the chasidim fighting amongst themselves it is the leaders that hate each other. The 2 different factions, and it is amongst several chasidus are not meshadech with each other, don’t eat from each others hashgachas and don’t talk to each other and definitely don’t call each other do wish them a gut shabbos or a gut year before Rosh Hashonoh but cross the street if they should come face to face on the street (although they only travel by limos ands bodyguuards). This started by direspecting other chasidus who didn’t agree with their philosophy and it goes back for many years even in Europe. I gusee the Chorbon didn’t teach us much where they didn’t differentiate between jews.
we are all to blame for this problem and the reason is as follows . if one looks in the weekly newspapers aka the hamodeah or the yated or Even the Jewish press one sees the following , a picture of a rov or a rosh hayeshiva greeting one of these rabonim were there is machlokis . the next week what do we see in these newspapers , the same thing again just with one exception , the rov or the rosh hayeshiva is now talking to the other side of this machlokis and in all the pictures they all look like they are the best of friends .
i know that i was taught in yeshiva to run away from machlokis and over here all the rabonim and rosh hayeshivos except this type of behaviour otherwise they would not want there pictures taken together with these chasedus that have machlokis.
this article really touched my heart, that sad day (which was btw on a Rosh Chodesh Elul) will never be forgotten how far a urge to lead can take people!,
I think the whole has to Tshuve, that such a thing could’ve happen in our days.
And to the above commenters, #1 there is no finger-pointing in this article, and whoever feels pointed at, there is No and again NO excuse whatsoever for such a lowly deed. Period.
Whoever had already ch”v in the family a tragedy, knows that till the Kevirre is the hardest time for the family and friends, it’s like a open wound that still gushes blood! Now think about this poor kinder’lech who had this for a entire day! For the only sin of ……..???
in reply to #4, on your fact 1) you forgot the main part, you told the time of fathers arivvel to NY, but pls tell us what time the levaye was…
Fact 2) I have news for you, in today’s world ppl know everything, and the same way the came to know that KJ denied his kevita at Monroe, same way they know the facts about NJ, don’t underestimate us!
Fact 3) thanks for aproving the story…
It pretty obvious that this writer ‘does’ take sides in the underlying dispute. By no means is this a neutral opinion.
As to chilul hashem – it is those within that community who regularly turn to the mainstream media who are responsible for the chilul hashem, together with heimishe news sites (like this one) who regularly expose to the outside world our inner misdeeds. (The Satmar Ruv Zt”l said that those who turn to the media are included in V’Lamalshinim.)
As to the playing with neshomes/fire; what about all the suffering perpetuated on the ‘living’ neshomes all these years? Where was your protest? In the Torah I know, the numerous sins involved in the suffering caused to the ‘living’ neshomes by preventing a grandfather from attending simchas are way much grave than hurting a deceased.
As others indicated, if this writer was truly neutral he would’ve given consideration to the facts. The media reports clearly state burial ‘was’ offered on the condition that the chilul hashem from civil court battles will stop. It’s ironic how an attempt to stop the gravest chilul hashem according to the shilchum urech, is turned on its head and described as chilul hashem…
And while it does not fit mainstream American thinking which you are so obsessed to satisfy, the last I checked, the shilchum urech connects denial of burial to siruv ledin.
Whatever the facts really are, it is clear that this editorial is biased.
sullivan1:
Read again “at that time the family already made their decision and knew exactly where the K’vire will take place”
Fact 2: people ‘DON’T’ know everything, there are enough spinners around who don’t bother to falsify and decay people.
“Sweet guy” The “Rebbe” doesnt trust din torah and went to court he was following the actions of the rebbe. What more could you want?
In response to #4 it is Unbelievable how you can twist the facts.
1) This yungerman who so tragically was niftar paid dues to KJ in Monroe.
2) sent his children to the mosdos in Monroe.
3) Donated money to those mosdos.
4) His only crime (if you can call it a crime) is that his father is very active in the other Kehilla and did not accept the leadership of the rabbi in Monroe. That is the reason they held up the Kevurah. No other reason. Your side figured out that this is an opertune moment and ‘let’s strike while the iron is hot’. The sins your people trangressed of bizoyon hames to give pain to an almono and nine yesomim for this there is no kaporoh. I am not a member of either kehilla and live in a totaly different community but happened to have been with people this weekend who are not associated with this fight and they were discussing it and the disgust with which they spoke (these people did their research) about the chillul hashem involved.
5) # 4 I think you should go over to the almono & yesomim and ask mechila before it is to late.
6) By the way the way I understand it the other side did not go to court your side went originally to court and they are challenging you there.
7) # 4 be truthful lies will get you nowhere
I am not affiliated with either party…
You can be pretty sure that every commentor that opens his comment with this statement, is indeed part of one of the split communities…
Dear Reb Shulem Rosenbaum shlit”a:
It’s a very well written and thought out editorial except……
DELETED BY EDITOR……
P.S. I wonder if you will publish this letter.
Editors Note: We don’t cover such machlokes ever. And to totally squash your entire comment: the writer of this editorial wears a shtreimel.
#13
From the hostile language you use, it doesn’t seem that you are from a “totaly different community”…
and now:
1)’Dues'(assuming he did pay…) is not the only condition to be buried in the Kehila cemetery. This yungerman was an active member on the opposition Kehila board.
2)Irrelevant
3)Irrelevant
4)Again, he personally was an active member of the opposing kehila. And after all, it wasn’t intended to take revenge, they were just trying to take full advantage of a rare opportunity to get out of court.
#13- very good and to the point.
It is Elul and commenting on this story is only instigating more sinas chinum.
The Mishna tells us clearly that if this is a Machlokes Lshem Shomayim it will have a Kiyum. If not it won’t. Those involved have to look themselves in the mirror and live with what comes along with being part of a Machlokes. If they are in it Lshem Shomayim and for Ribui Kvod Shomayim – they will be fine and will prevail. If they are in it for the wrong reasons they will live with the tragedies and machalos that come along with those who are Michalel shem shomayim.
For the rest of us – we (hopefully) each have our own Posek / Rov / Rebbi. If you feel it is important to get involved and mix in (and commenting on this site is called getting involved and mixing in) ask first and follow the Psak.
All I see from this article is someone died, someone became an almana, someone lost a child and 9 children became yesomim. Another tragedy. Another message from above. Another reason to do Teshuva. Another reason to use this month for proper preparation for the Yomim Noroim.
A Pachad Nifla!
#17 – Your comment #4 shows your true colors. Is someone’s tragedy and misfortune a “rare opportunity”? And to “take advantage” of someone’s tragedy in this manner goes way beyond yiddishkeit. It goes beyond morality and mentchlichkeit! There are times when it doesn’t make a difference who is wrong and who is right. You just need be a human being & to have a heart Take a step back and let them deal with their tragedy without inflicting more harm & pain.
In reply to #17, you made your kehila 4 simple ganuvim, bcus if he is not allowed to be member, how come they took membership of R’ Eziel Zts”l every year -including this year- and one of the most common reasons -and benefit which kehila promisses is to get a keiver when time comes- without mentioning anything????
As always, each faction in any machkokes SHELO l’shem Shamayim (as this one is) thinks G-d is on his side.
Sadly, sadly, the leaders today start and foment the continuation of the machlokes until everything is permitted in the name of “the heilige…..”
None of us knows the real or complete facts.
None of us are qualified to comment.
In response to #13, it is Unbelievable how you can make facts according to your side (oops its not your side, but their side! Now, Mr. #13. Let’s make a few things clear, so I’ll take your words under “…” & answer on it right after bringing down your words:
“1) This yungerman who so tragically was niftar paid dues to KJ in Monroe” – NO! He did NOT!!! He owns them already 2 years membership (and after not paying for 2 years and not talking with the Kehila about paying in the 3rd year he looses his membership rights) & didn’t have in plan to pay it since… He completely switched party, what I mean is he’s now (Nebech was) a board member of their Kehila. (as discussed later)
“2) sent his children to the mosdos in Monroe” – NO! Not all of them! His married son for sure learned in that Yeshiva that was founded against the Mura D’Asra! Also some of his kids are learning in the Mosdes which was founded against the Mura D’Asra! And once you are going against the Kehila & Mosdes you looses your membership rights & Kuhel is not obligated to you anymore! [And if you don’t know I’ll tell you, the Beth Din HaGudel of Yerishulayim came out years ago with an Issur against founding a Mosed against the Rabbi & Ruv].
“3) Donated money to those mosdos” – can’t fight with you on this one, I didn’t ask the Hanhula. But I don’t think its true since their Kehila (with a unfinished building for about 10 years) and their Mosdes is going thru very hard times. Anyways i think you’re mixing up with his father-in-law.
“4) His only crime (if you can call it a crime) is that his father is very active in the other Kehilla and did not accept the leadership of the rabbi in Monroe.” – NO! Not at all! His crime was that HE did not accept the leadership of the Rabbe! he was one of the biggest people & Askunam in the other Kehila & Mosdes! & more then that, he was just appointed by the other Rabbi (RZ”L) to be one of the head of their Kehila in KJ. So he was a against the Mura D’Asra. And just for your info, HE was VERY INVOLVED in buying HIS new Pollack’s Beis HaChiam a few days before he left us, & Nebech started to use it.
Now, regarding his father, let’s make it very clear. A lot of people that are Misnagdim & against the leadership who died they all got buried in the Beis HaChiam without any problem (only had to pay for the membership of all the years). Now there was the only time to tell for his father after years of NOT coming to Din Torah after a few HaZmunas, ‘if you sign Shturei Beriran & go out from court on at least this Beis HaChiam (he still has a few open other cases against Kuhel in Williamsburg & Kuhel in KJ) your son can be buried in this BH, otherwise its not your place!!!’
You’re writing: ” That is the reason they held up the Kevurah. No other reason. Your side figured out that this is an opertune moment and ‘let’s strike while the iron is hot’.” – NO! 1) we waited in the beginning to even get a chance to start talking to his father about our deal, then The only time we thought that his father will put away all his Gaava & politic feelings & do the right thing while Meisoi Mitol L’Funov & sign to go out from court!
” The sins your people trangressed of bizoyon hames to give pain to an almono and nine yesomim for this there is no kaporoh.” – it was the option of his father, her father-in-law & their grand father to avoid all that. But… Refused!!!
“I am not a member of either kehilla and live in a totaly different community but happened to have been with people this weekend who are not associated with this fight and they were discussing it and the disgust with which they spoke (these people did their research) about the chillul hashem involved” – No comments on this one… (VD”L…)
“5) # 4 I think you should go over to the almono & yesomim and ask mechila before it is to late.” – I think you should go over to all Satmara Chasidem and ask Mechila before it is to late!
“6) By the way the way I understand it the other side did not go to court your side went originally to court and they are challenging you there.” – we called them to Din Torah (By Navardig & we tried for years they should come Zabloo) but they’re simply ignoring it! (With an answer we could’ve use in BP, but didn’t!) So with a Hater Beth Din (the Hater was shown to Viana Ruv Shlita & to HaGuan Reb Yisroel Duvid Harfanas, Avad & Mchaber Sfurim Yisroel V’HaZmanim) we went to court. Now they are in court without a Hater Beth Din! & still don’t want to come to Din Torah! So now was a time to force him about it, but… He refused!!!
“7) # 4 be truthful lies will get you nowhere.” – you are 100% right! & talk to your self about it!!!
Reply to #9 is the young wife, the shocked father, the 9 kids now’s Yesomim -not called “living neshumes”???
How can you be such a hypocrite?
#24 – thank you for the most intelligent comment on the page.
#1,5,22,etc – HOW DARE YOU blast gedolei yisroel like that!!!!!!!!!! HOW DARE YOU accuse gedolei yisroel are “not very bright”, “hate each other start”, and “start and foment… machlokes” You do not come up to the gedolims toes to be able to question them!!!!!!! You should be ashamed!!!!!!
Unfortunately, every word written by this author is true.
Not only that, but Rebetzin Sosha (the wife of Reb Aron) paid a shiva call to the family on Sunday. Upon arriving she quietly told some of the family members how sick she is over the incident. She said, verbatim “My hands are tied.”
You see, this young man had helped everybody without any regard to his/her affiliation. He was beloved by all.
Unbelievably, his body was held hostage in a Hatzala ambulance for hours in the sweltering heat by the KJ security people.
All the niftar’s friends, including those from the opposite faction were outraged by the actions of the day.
And, lastly I would like to know where the Roshei Yeshiva and magidei shiur were when several hundred bochurim came out of the Yeshiva and were jeering and singing during the kiddush Bais Hachayim and levaya. There was not one word of condemnation. The police looked on in shock.
Shame, shame!!
As terrible as it may sound to delay one’s Kevurah, it has been done in the Past.
Dovid Hamelech, had seven of Shaul’s Children and Grandchildren killed, and just left them hanging overnight. He didn’t even bother appointing anybody to protect the bodies from the animals. He just happened to find out the next day that the Mother of these children stayed with the children all night to protect the bodies.
The Miforshim say that the reason for this killing could not have been simply to avenge the Gevoinim. First, the Midrash says that Shaul did not actually kill the Gevoinim, he just killed the Kohanim who used to provide jobs for the Gevoinim. Second, nowhere do find such an idea of Goyim choosing which Yidden should die to avenge something done to the Goyim in the past. Third, Dovid somehow was the one to choose exactly which ones of Shaul’s children should be hung.
Therefore the Miforshim say, that the underlying reason for their killing was; Dovid had just undergone a major revolt by Avsholom and by Sheva ben Bichri, and he felt that another uprising was brewing from the followers of Shaul’s family.
So we see that to protect a dynasty of a leader, drastic steps were taken.
I am in shock that YWN is letting someone write such Loshon Hora and Motzi Shem Ra on such a big Kehilla as holy as Kiryas Joel, how dare you?? Lies and distorting the facts, this site is becoming like a jungle as the NY POST !! we can’t let anyone innocent look at this site anymore, bye bye YWN welcome YWN/NY Post.
#20 Don’t emphasize “rare opportunity” and “take advantage” rather quote “get out of court”. (see below).
#21 As #24 pointed out already and I mentioned it in post #2: You, and me too, don’t know the facts.
Let’s assume he did pay his dues even this year, it does not entitle him a plot in KJ, as the Kehila clearly writes in their ‘Shtatuten” (by-laws). The KJ ‘kehila’ took a position – ‘lifnim mishiras hadin’ – that they are ready to bury him in KJ if his father takes the first steps to go out from ‘arkuois’ (court).
YWN,
Please, please, can you please not sully your site by printing about Machlokes such as this?
I, who has never heard of any of this, just got a huge dollop of Lashon Hara.
Why? Why did I have to be subjected to this, lifnei iver style, in Elul? I thought this was general Mussar regarding unspecified groups/individuals- I was ready to hear and listen. And instead I had to receive horrible Lashon Hara?
I am really upset.
#31 – Why shouldn’t I emphasize those points if that’s exactly what is being done? Using a tragedy to force your request/demand upon the inflicted is not called “taking advantage”? The actual facts sort of don’t matter in this situation. Don’t take advantage of a person who is hit by a tragedy even if you think you can score a major win here. How about showing some compassion, a jewish heart, etc. and put the issues aside and be there for your fellow Jew in time of need?
some mentioned Daas Thorah etc… Well did anyone here or see any rabbi or Daas thora approving this cold hearted act?
some mentioned that this is a big Kehilah and frum, but we all know that one who covers up for the bad is bad too. Who is asking those inside there to coverup on those evil acts? Is the acts they are doing backed by Gedoilim?
they are determined to cover up everything!! The question is only how.
sullivan1 #26 — My post (#9) was not intended to endorse or explain the underlying actions, it only shows that the editorial is ill intended. This is a complicated inner dispute where things are not as simple as the editorial tries to paint them. Your limited comment actually underscores the truth in my post.
I was questioning the propriety of the sudden protest under the theme of kevod hameis after failing to protest years of the more egregious aveirus of offending the living neshomas. I did not indicate that living neshomas did not suffer here, but since such aveirus are never protested it is senless to protest kevod hameis. Your calling me a hypocrite is therefore unjustified.
YWN, since this article does bring more machlokes, and since it’s chodesh Elul can you please take this off the site? why not come clean before hashem ?
The following is my comment which i posted in the next editorial page written by yossi in which he explains that the press cant be trusted in regard to heimishe yiden, the comment actually belongs here.
“As the YWN editors are questioning the credibility and the objectivity of the mainstream media re: heimishe yiden it’s a wonder why YWN created an editorial and stated clearly that its based on information from the media (the previous editorial). Please explain or better yet be a “moda al hoemes” and retrive the privious editorial”
I have to say, great job done by YWN posting this article.
Just to say, i wish this ‘Big Kehila’ should consider them selves as part of Rav Kook’s people, and revelie their true insights.
grat job by YWN
to #38 i am ashemd to belonge to this group by moshe
I think the center pages in “der blatt” this week answars alot of this criticizim here.
Just to be fair and to give the accused the right to defend themselves.
#41, Berry:
The center pages of this week’s Der Blatt is a desperate attempt to put a spin on a horrific incident which resulted in major condemnation the world over.
However, the lies written are so blatant that nobody is buying them.
-1: They claim that the videos of the bochurim singing and booing were spliced and edited, but there are several videos from different photographers who recorded the exact same thing at exactly the same time. Besides which, there were hundreds of people, including dayanim, who heard this live. No faking that!
-2: There is no doubt that the niftar was a fully paid-up member, and there is proof. The Aroinim demanded a $50,000 surcharge in order to penalize the father for being the vice-president of the opposing Kehila.
I am still sick when I think of what transpired that day in KJ, and there is nothing any newspaper can write to justify the torture of the family and the bizayon of the niftar!