“We had the golden period of Rabbenu Hagodol. My father and teacher zt”l said Am Yisroel has not had such a leader for many generations, and I heard the same thing said by Rabban Shel Kol Bnei HaGoloh Maran HaRav Eliashiv shlita. I heard this from both of them on several occasions,” said HaRav Shmuel Auerbach during an enormous gathering in Bnei Brak on Motzei Shabbos Parshas Vayeiro to mark the seventh yahrtzeit of HaRav Shach zt”l.
“The yeshiva world is in danger. Efforts are being made to constrict bnei Torah. Every effort is being made to make them unable to learn. A yeshiva is a holy entity. Since the days of our forefathers the yeshiva has always been in existence. It must be kept in mind what a yeshiva is, what this concept is that obligates us as a public and as individuals. Rabbenu Hagodol was extremely vigilant and we must continue safeguarding it with all our strength.”
HaRav Auerbach added that the world is full of confusion and distractions, yet we have an obligation to stay on the straight path, especially during this period of material problems for avreichim when many trying to limit Torah learning. Our sole obligation is to reinforce the number of `soldiers’ in the yeshivas and the kollelim and not to get caught up by various suggestions intended to diminish Torah in quality and quantity.
“The yeshivas have to be preserved just as Rabbenu Hagodol entrenched them, learning with toil and depth, not losing any aspect — neither pshat nor sevoro.
“Once somebody asked Avi mori gaon Yisroel regarding a certain directive Rabbenu Hagodol zt”l had issued. My father got very angry and told him that despite everything we know about Maran and his achievements and the strength of his decisions and approach, more of him remains hidden than revealed, and he is considered a tzaddik nistar.
“That obligates us, too, when it comes to the path he laid and safeguarded. Don’t pretend to be wise because you don’t know the depth of his [words and thinking].”
The enormous gathering was held at Beis Medrash Talmidei Yeshiva Ponovezh Letzei’irim with maranan verabonon on hand along with thousands of listeners. HaRav Auerbach’s talk was followed by speeches given by HaRav Tzvi Bergman and HaRav Mattisyohu Salomon.
(By A. Cohen and Yechiel Sever for Dei’ah veDibur)
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44 Responses
It takes a while into the article to realize that this is talking about Moreinu Harav Shach ztvk”l.
Because only limud HaTorah will save us from our enemies whether the Saudi funded terrorists or an Iranian nuclear threat, R”L.
jphone, you’re not alone, I did too, and I bet a lot of readers found the title somewhat deceptive.
This is very true. I hope there is not a trend of Yeshivos falling into financial problems.
Does this mean he will repeat the Rambam’s psak and encourage those who study exclusively to work part time so that the entire support structure doesn’t collapse?
RAV aUERBACH ARTICLULATES VERY CLEARLY THE FALLACY HELD BY SO MANY–EVEN BY MANY POSTERS TO THIS WEBSITE–THAT THEIR OPINION IS JUST AS VALID, AND WOTRHY OF CONSIDERATION, AS ANY OF THE GEDOLEI TORAH.
This is a common mistake, in this day of “equality” and the Socialism of ideas.
Our true Gedolei Torah are men, whose depths of thinking and insight are largely hidden from us, and we are quite foolish to think that we can debate them on equal terms.
# 7
we dont adhere to dogma of INFALLIBILITY
the catholic church does
we believe even The beis din hagadol can make mistakes
why is it necessary attribute infallibility to our gedolim ????
The misplaced comma after the word “men” in #7’s comment changes the whole post in a way that’s kinda funny.
#6, deepthinker was reffering to YOU.
Deepthinker, Thank you, well done.
I hope there is not a trend of Yeshivos falling into financial problems —
They have & are, lo alenu!!
to #7, i suggest you review the parsha of ‘par he’elem davar’ – the torah does address situations where leaders and chachamim err.
also, when reish lakish died r’ yochanan was very sad because all the other chachamim around him just agreed with whatever he said, and did not challenge him and his positions like reish lakish did.
while our leaders are our guides, #8 is correct that the idea of thier infallibility is a non-jewish concept foreign to torah.
we all know of several gedolim who directed their followers remain in europe during the holocaust rather than escaping. we all know the result.
there is a great difference between asserting the importance of guidance from gedolei torah and insisting that yiddin should not use the sechel hashem gave them, and instead become walking robots of “infalliable” daas torah.
To all the working people that believe in them self and not g-d. There is a g-d and he gave the bible which has all the answers to life. You cant understand it properly, and the real Gedolim can.
It is not for you to choose who the Gedolim Are
So open your eyes and join kalal yisroel
Cause we need every Jew to work with Achddus and do the rite thing following each small detail the Torah/Gedoli Hadar yell us.
no one here or anywhere else said the Gdolim are “infallible”. but you and i are like ants compared to them
as the Chovos Halvovos states:(in english translation) “they see without eyes and hear without ears”
you dont understand who they are.
“also, when reish lakish died r’ yochanan was very sad because all the other chachamim around him just agreed with whatever he said, and did not challenge him and his positions like reish lakish did.”
R Lakish didnt challenge HIM, he brought Torah refutations to his Torah chiddushim. The other Chochomin did not agree with whatever he said, but they were unable to demonstrate refutations to his Torah derivations.
The Torah tells us that even of the Chachomim say on yom shehi layla and layla shehee yom YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO THEM.
#12, where is your “sechel” in that?
Re the Par heelem davar, thats exactly the point, YOU STILL NEED TO FOLLOW THEM. YES EVEN IF YOUR “sechel” – NOT! tells you its yom or layla.
Yes Daad Torah is INFALLIABLE and yes you should be a robot in following that.
Regarding your charge about the Holocaust, it is 100% mufrach in and of itself, but the purpose of this post is so that YOU and your “sechel” not be a stumbling block for others, not ot explain to you why you are dead wrong. For that you can use your own sechel to figure it out (or ask Daas Torah).
1) To the Editor: I have to agree with DaasTorahWtchdg. I too didn’t know who Rav Auerbach, shlita was referring to as “Rabbenu Hagodol” until much later in the article. In the future can you insert a comment to clarify such expressions for us? Thanks in advance.
2)deepthinker – at first I thought you were being too harsh on the commenters until I read on. I wish I could disagree with you. 🙁
I guess we’ve got a lot of growing to do. May I remind everyone that Purim happened because people thought that they were smarter than the gedolim of their time. How wrong they were?
It’s a mitzva di’orisa (chiyuv) to follow the chochamim. It’s called Emunat chochumim. There is even a machloket (I think it was between the Rambam and perhaps Ramban) on whether chazal can be mistaken or not. Even according to the opinion that they can, he holds it is better to follow their mistake than to follow your own wisdom.
Bottom line: Don’t fool yourself! The gedolim know shas and poskim 100,000 times better than you do, so trust them.
#6 (a) They’ve seen that Rambam and understand it way beyond you. (b) Your statement shows that you’ve NEVER read up on the life of Rambam. Rambam did not start working until he was 34 years old (not even excepting a pulpit position even though he was already a well known Talmid Chochim). And Guess what?! Until age 34 he was being support to be able to sit and learn full time. [Sounds somewhat like kollel, don’t you think?] The only reason he started working is because his benefactor drowned at sea, so he was forced to support his family. Otherwise, he’d still have been sitting in “kollel”.
Now that obviously leaves us with a dilemma. Either the Rambam was a hypocrite (chalila) or you don’t understand that Rambam that you quoted.
the story goes that the present day kollel system was instituted after the war – as a horaas shaa -to compensate for the churban.
in fact it has succeeded beyond anyone’s wildest dreams – both in quantity and quality
Jonathan Rosemblum has an essay that discusses / questions the extension of that horaas shaa to today
NEVER in the history of klal yisrael have some many engaged (simultaneously) in full time limud hatorah (fact) – the system is broken (opinion) -time to think of a fix
#12-the very falliable hatzadik rav chatzkel levenstein ztl was always bothered why he wasnt zoche to die al kiddush hashem.so while to you it is a simple fact that the gedolim were wrong in europe,some gedolim differ on the matter.while it is clear that we have a responsibility to save ourselves,the ribbono shel olam works in mysterious ways.
#13 As long as we are looking for the truth we will find it no matter where you are, who you are, which involves in giving your whole life to be Shomer Torah Umitzvos. There is no such thing as some times or to a certain point. And if being Shomer Torah Umitzvot is not a challenge THEN YOUR DOING SOMETHING WRONG.
To those who have criticized my post:
1. The Rambam learned how to be an expert physician. As we know that he studied earlier texts such as Avicenna and others, He didn’t just POP!! become a physician at 34 after sitting in Kolel for 20 years. Along with learning Torah he was learning a trade and the science it was based on.
2. My concern is much like others here – what was once a vital but not-for-everyone pursuit has become an expectation and an assumption. You know, I take example from an ancestor of mine, the Mateh Efrayim, R’Efrayim Zalmen Margoliyos ztl. He was an illui and a posek but he was also a highly successful businessman, and he never wished to depend on the community, but rather to support it. He never took on the Rabbinate of Brody or anywhere else, even though offered several times. His approach was acceptable to the Hafloh, R’ Pinchas Halevi Ish Horowitz ztl, who married his grandson to the Mateh Efrayim’s Daughter. So as a descendant of them both, its good enough for me too.
3. Regarding the Holocaust – I am not getting in the middle of the present argument about the gedolim who told their followers not to flee, but let us Remember that R’ Shach ztl’s statements about it were not without disagreement from other gedolim.
4. Without questions there is stagnation. Without challenges, we as B’nei Yisroel wouldn’t exist. After all, the name Yisroel means he who struggles with hakodosh Boruch Hu. The brilliance and chesed of the gedolim who I have had they zchus to meet has given me the understanding that like the Kotzker Rebbe said about the apparent extraneous sentence “LoTaasu Kein L’hashem Elokeichem” in sefer Devorim, it doesn’t apply to the posuk before or after, but rather tells us that Hashem doesn’t want us to do “Kein”. He doesn’t want yes men. He gave us Torah in order to teach us how to learn, how to think, how to exercise our bechirah chofshis. What a shame if we abdicate our responsibility because too many balabatim would rather not have to think for themselves that they make it a shande to do so.
To all the working people that believe in them self and not g-d. There is a g-d and he gave the bible which has all the answers to life. You cant understand it properly, and the real Gedolim can.
What makes you think that ONLY working people need chizuk, i believe that Rav Aurabach was speaking to bnei torah. So let us reprase please, “To all learning people that believe in them self (or father in law) and not gd. There is a gd and he gave the bible which has all the answers to life. you cant understand it properly and the real Gedolim can”.
#22,
Your point #1 is utter nonsense. Nothing further is warranted.
Re: the Matte Efrayim, I’m not sure where you get the tamarity to compare anything of this discussion to his madregah of not relying on the community. Relevance to us: ZERO.
Exactly which statements of R’ Shach Z”L regarding the holocaust lend themselves over here???
Regarding #4, I think your the fellow the Kotzker was reffering to when he asked the guy for a bracha. (VeHameymvin Yavin).
#17 illini07 – to answer your question, chazal actually ask your exact question, “How do you know who’s a gadol?” Their answer is “only a gadol knows who is and who isn’t a gadol”. Therefore, since Moshe Rabeinu time the previous dor has always revealed who will be the up and coming gedolim of the next generation (see Avos 1,1). For example, I believe it was the Chofetz Chaim who revealed the Chazon Ish to us. The Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav revealed Rav Shach as the leader after them. Rav Shach revealed that Rav Eliashiv would be next in line. I hope this answers your question.
#14 bacci40 – to clarify:
1) 20 years ago it depended which yeshivah you were in. Some yeshivas held to sit in Kollel for 5 years and then go out to make parnasa. This I believe was the view of Rav Wolbe, ztl. Others held indefinite (I believe this used to be the shita of Rav Sheinberg, shlita). There may have been some chareidi yeshivas that held as you mentioned that only the elite would stay beyond 2-3 years, but I heard that view mainly by Chesder yeshivas.
2) To answer your questions let’s clarify some points. a) I believe the Rav’s concern is that there are those whose desire is to totally uproot the existence of Yeshivas. This is called shmad.
To say, “Let’s do away with Yeshivas and Kollels completely” would be in affective so they resort to step by step tactics trying to show rational for the “small” changes they wish us to make. They won’t say “EVERYBODY go out and work full time”, rather they’ll say “we should consider that SOME people should go out to work full time (to support the rest of the kollelite and the economy at large as well of course), others should at least work part time, etc, etc.” You see how it works? This is typical “Animal Farm” tactics. Nothing new under the sun.
b) You must understand that the world out there is much crueler than it was 20 years ago. The nisyonim are much worse. Thus, we need even much more fortification before going out then we ever needed before if we will survive as a holy nation. On the contrary, we need to keep the boys in for much much longer, not less G-d forbid!
I hope I have been able to show you a different way of looking at things now.
Let stand by our gedolim like Yehoshua stood by Moshe Rabeinu.
Some people seem to think that working people don’t believe in Hashem. Doesn’t anyone know working men who also learn and have emuna? There are stories of people who had such emuna that Hashem would sustain them, that they just sat in the bais medresh and each day miraculously there was money for food and rent. I’m sure thee are people these days on that level but I don’t know any.
#22 lo taasu keyn – It is obvious that you are speaking from your opinion instead of from knowledge you gained from research. I can not state at what point Rambam took up the study of medicine, but it certainly appears that his being an “expert physician” was not at 34 like you’d like us to believe. Here is a quote from Rav Berel Wein’s history book, “Herald of Destiny”.
Quote – “But the crowning blow fell upon him in 1169 when his brother David was lost at sea… It was only after David’s death that Rabbi Moshe undertook to support his family by practicing medicine…Rambam’s medical practice continued for the next twenty years under difficult financial conditions, and he was hard pressed to support his own family…Finally, in 1190, he came to the attention of Qadi al-Fadil, a courtier of the emperor, Saladin, etc…” p. 122-123
Thus Rambam made it big in the medical field around the age of 53, not at 34.
Being someone in the work force myself I can vouch that education does not compare with experience. I think everyone else in the work force will agree with me.
Bottom line:
“David…had supported his great brother financially, allowing him to concentrate on writing his Torah works.” – Herald of Destiny, p.122
“Im ain Kemach” – if you refuse to support Torah institutions and demand that they go out and work, “Ain Torah” – you’ll die without Torah supporting you in Shimiyim.
As far as your Yichus, Torah is not a Yirusha. (see Avos)
dontbeagolem – this is historically incorrect. The kollel system started well before the war. The Chofetz Chaim wrote about the great need to support kollels and he died in 1933 well before WWII.
Perhaps you are referring to a supposed horas sha’ah of the Chazon Ish. If so, I have never seen anything in writing on that so I can not comment.
If you have sources then please quote them. Otherwise, it’s just hearsay.
We do have to strengthen the kollelim.
A good way to strengthen the kollelim is to strengthen the women behind the men.
We need to make sure that the women have decent jobs that will make enough money and at the same time will not compromise their health and well being.
We need to make sure that in times of financial crisis that these families (along with the rest of us) get chizzuk and tools to pull through..
Money is not going to be the only thing that keeps the men in kollel.
We need to strengthen the women and be sure that they have ways to do this without overexherting themselves..
We also need to make it possible to find ways that the kollel men understand what their wives are doing and not take it for granted..
There needs to be a support network for kollel wives and in truth for all women who are valueing their husband’s learning..
#26 just me – I’m not sure what exactly is your main point. However, to answer one point you bring out, a Rav once said to me, “there are Baal Habatim that are Bnei Torah and Bnei Torah that are Baal Habatim”.
#29 frumimaof3 – Good point!
RE: # 28 Softwords
You state: this is historically incorrect. The kollel system started well before the war. The Chofetz Chaim wrote about the great need to support kollels and he died in 1933 well before WWII.
in fact the present version of the kollell system as we know it is at best 35 – 40 years old. Lakewood had so few talmidim that R’ Tendler of YU sent talmidim from his shiur to fill the seats at the shiur (fact)
Rav Gorelick – a Mir (europe) talmid – is quoted to have said that in the entire Mir there were 400 talmidim and today in boro park there are 400 talmidim per BLOCK
You stated: Perhaps you are referring to a supposed horas sha’ah of the Chazon Ish. If so, I have never seen anything in writing on that so I can not comment.
perhaps you should peruse the article by rosenblum i referred to and you will gain additional insights – in fact rosenblum looks at the detrimental effects of role reversal due to women being main bread winners
You state:If you have sources then please quote them. Otherwise, it’s just hearsay.
Not I – but scholars – including Rabbi Wein (Attorney – Loyola) state repeatedly that the number of torah students today exceeds the numbers at any other time in history
Guys .. time to wake up .. the system is so successful that it has overwhelmed the resources
We need a fix
Who wants Yeshiva world off??????? What confusion all titles no names.This is a way not to speak
1. Chas Vecholilo – where did I say that one shouldn’t support Torah institutions, Softwords? It must be nice setting up a straw man so you can knock it down. None of what I have said is directed at the people who support kolellim. I guess it doesn’t matter what was said; it only matters how strongly you can object to someone who has a different shitah. Supporters should keep on supporting, and if they can they should increase, now more than ever. I feel it would be a bracha for everyone if the impetus for including some training and work along with Torah learning came from those who are sitting and studying themselves!
And, to all of my critics, if I am so wrong, why have many gedolim given their bracha to Machon Naveh in Yerushalayim, where almost 1000 ONE THOUSAND chareidim go to classes at night after learning most of the day to earn a computer science, engineering, or accounting degree?
Do you think that they are kofrim b’ikor too?
By the way, another straw man. I didn’t postulate 34, you did in post #18. I responded based on your number. I’ve done some background. Rambam and his family were in Fez from about 1158. He studied medicine and science at Al karaoine, the only scientific school of its kind in the world at the time, It is in Fez, and that is where he and his family were. That was well before his middle years. This is at the same time as writing the Mishne Torah.
Yet another straw man. “making it big” in the medical field, as you put it, may have been when he was middle aged. I didn’t postulate when he made it big, only when he trained and began to practice.
Honestly, for a crowd used to shakle vetarye, this is a pathetic way to argue. Read what you are critiquing and answer the words in front of you. An example of your argumentative perfidy. You wrote, in response to me
“it certainly appears that his being an “expert physician” was not at 34 like you’d like us to believe.”
but what I actually wrote was this
“The Rambam learned how to be an expert physician. As we know that he studied earlier texts such as Avicenna and others, He didn’t just POP!! become a physician at 34 after sitting in Kolel for 20 years. Along with learning Torah he was learning a trade and the science it was based on.”
Davka the opposite of what you inferred.!!
Tell me, Softwords, did your chevrusa get tired of this kind of discourse?
follow link to read rosenblums article
http://www.jewishmediaresources.org/article/1167/
#32 dontbeagolem – You keep saying, “the present version of the kollel system as we know it”.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that kollel are much larger today? Do you mean the concept of married students continuing their studies in a kollel? Please expound.
I’ve taken the time to find Jonathan Rosemblum’s essay and read it. I think you are misrepresenting his view point. BTW – he never quotes the Chazon Ish as saying that it was a hora’as sha’ah. That was your input.
Your quote of Rav Berel Wein (source not given) is ambiguous.
#34 lo taasu keyn- Your first point was very brief.
Quote: “Does this mean he will repeat the Rambam’s psak and encourage those who study exclusively to work part time so that the entire support structure doesn’t collapse?”
This gives off the impression that you feel that ALL bnei torah should work part time. That may not be your opinion, but with the brief posting that you gave that is what most likely most people felt you were insinuating, right or wrong.
dontbeagolem –
1. I read this article: http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/11/06/spared-the-responsibility/
2. Your link never brings up the Chazon Ish.
3. In both articles he does not bring solutions, just issues that need to be dealt with. He even ends one the articles with “What to do?”
You are insinuating that he is of the same opinion as you. Although he might, he never really states his opinion, so we don’t have the rights to second guess him.
RE #36
You questioned: What do you mean by this? Do you mean that kollel are much larger today? Do you mean the concept of married students continuing their studies in a kollel? Please expound.
I’ve taken the time to find Jonathan Rosemblum’s essay and read it. I think you are misrepresenting his view point.
Never before have so many – married and single – devoted themselves to full time torah study. Never before did so many families depend on in-laws and / or wives for financial support. Certainly never before did so many relegate child rearing to nannys / day care or play groups. Never did so many frum – erlich – able bodied families depend on welfare and such programs
Rosenblum’s article – is just one of many dealing with the tragedy of poverty in our community. Yated has published many letters to the editor – venting about the poverty and its impact on young families.
What a tragedy. (my take – based on my perspective.. you may disagree .. as they say …. variety.. it is the spice of life)
You stated: BTW – he never quotes the Chazon Ish as saying that it was a hora’as sha’ah. That was your input.
I never mentioned the Chazon Ish – just mentioned the quote – without attribution – Horaas Shaa – see article
(ps I never knew it was the chazon ish who coined the term.. hey .. live and learn)
You stated: Your quote of Rav Berel Wein (source not given) is ambiguous.
I heard him say this – personally – many times – beginning in the late Sixties.. he has stated so publicly – search the JP archives.
I am telling you the our local Bai Yaakov charges $ 7,000 / girl – and it is no longer giving scholarships to kollel families. How is a family with 7 kids going to get $ 49,000 to pay tuition – Health insurance ?? Life Insurance ?? food ?? clothing ?? TAXES ?? YOU do the math
kesef Minalan
I am postulating that the system is broken and needs fixing
25, this 5 year number is an interesting one. People are so casual, in fact, I think vulgar, about talking about “learning for a few years.” Don’t people know that with no support, or the variables Hashem throws our way, any amount of time, one or two years, can involve incredible mesirus nefesh?
29 and 36, I think I once heard that Rav Aharon zt”l made sure to pay his kollel men a living (maybe modest, but living) wage so the women wouldn’t be forced to work. I think that Lakewood now is amazing and beautiful, I am frankly in awe every time I have an opportunity to visit, yet I have to wonder what he would make of it.
And a P.S. to what I wrote before: a relative mentioned that some of the biggest talmidei chachamim who are magidei shiur in his yeshiva (trust me, they’re biggies) started teaching after a “mere” five years in kollel. Has there been such niskatnu hadoros in just 30 years?!?!
In this time of crisis, we should make a special bracha for all the fathers-in-law and parents who enable the younger generation to remain in kollel. Let’s hope they keep their parnasa and work healthily until meah v’esrim.
yitzy99 … why is it the in-laws and parents responsibility to support their children … this expectation is quite possibly the stupidest idea I have ever seen put forth
As well, this entire concept of unquestioningly following “Daas Torah” is a relatively new one. RABBANIM ARE NOT INFALLIBLE!!!
#42, while I fully agree with you… what will be with the next generation? don’t the children of this generation deserve to be supported in kollel iy”H too?Where will the money come from?
I know that eventhough I my husband isn’t in kollel, we don’t have so much money. Howeever, we intend to help our kids in anyway shape or form to make sure that they can do it without missing out on the bare necessities in life.
39 dontbeagolem – everyone realizes that there is an issue. The question is how to deal with it. To tell everyone to go out and work half/part time does not seem to be correct in the eyes of the gedolim and it is our responsibility to follow them even if we don’t see it their way.
Furthermore, I happened to have spoken once to a prominent woman from a community in America that is known for their charitable giving who stated the following. She said to me (from her personal knowledge of what is actually going on) that if all the gevirim from her community would just give the 10% that they are required to give not one person or institution in their frum community would suffer.
I heard the same thing from a Gabi of a famous Admor. One of the many things he said was “Halivai they would give the maaser (10%) that they are required to give”.
Perhaps our focus is on the wrong people. It is much easier to tell kollelite to go out and work than it is to tell gevirim to open up their hands wider.
BTW – how do you explain Hezekiah’s forcing all to learn Torah in a time when poverty was ramped? Of course it was a hora’as Sha’ah, but it went way beyond the financial suffering of today. (6 sat under one tallis to keep warm)
#41 tzippi – I’m sorry to say, but from my discussion with all my previous michanchim the fact seems to be that there defiantly has been a great niskatnu hadoros in the last 30 years. Perhaps ask the michanchim that you know to confirm this.
#42 yitzy99 – You bring out a valid point. We certainly need to give credit where credit is due.
47, what is the nature of this niskatnu hadoros? Is it that the young men aren’t ready to leave the safety of the daled amos of the beis medrash as early as they used to? But what if they are leaving full time learning for teaching in the same environment?
Is it that they aren’t knowledgeable enough to teach yet? Could this be traced to the need for yeshivos to get back to the basics, and concentrate on the middle school and elementary level on giving over basic skills and broad general knowledge (Tanach, historia, dikduk) vs. premature lomdus?