47 Responses

1. Thanks, I’ll still listen to my gedolim who say yes to vote

2. Using the same logic, shouldn’t it also be Assur to vote for Democrats?

3. Best I can tell none of the rabbis listed were talking about this year’s WZO vote. The moetzet can decide to forbid voting; they cannot claim those not living would agree. Circumstances change, which is why other rabbi’s encourage voting.

4. No, Democrats is a political party of the US government. Joining the US government is not Assur.

5. Neat, how they completely ignore Reb Chaim

6. Just like they ignored Reb Chaim’s Shita on “the freezer”

7. Reb Chaim said YES to get invloved. I saw the video.
   Reb Shmuel Shlit”a said YES to vote. I heard the recording.
   Reb Yitzchak Berkovtiz proved how its not just about the money, but actual saving yiddin.

   Some of the other rabbanim are EITZ voters.

8. Based on this logic, it should be Assur to participate on Israeli elections or join an Israeli government – but somehow, that’s not being considered.

   This Kol Koreh is also based on both a distortion of what the “purpose” of the Zionist movement was (it wasn’t uniform then – and the parts that were always more attached to Torah and tradition are the ones in ascendance now), and on a failure to pasken today based on the situation today vs. based on the situation close to 100 years ago.

   an Israeli Yid

9. Every representative in the Knesset has to officially identify with the Zionist state

10. Is there a reason there are no signatures?

11. I don’t plan on voting, but I can’t help feeling uneasy (to say the least) about how “one” side of this machlokes is going about their argument. Coming out with such a “mafia force” about a debate that seems to be really split amongst the gedolim, and that both sides have a good argument, doesn’t look like the reasoning can be relayed in a calm, logical and CONFIDENT manner. I’m really not sure how many gedolim WOULD be ok with voting if they wouldn’t be afraid to say so. Why are there no names on this? Which moetzes is this? Agudah? Why doesn’t it say Agudah? Does R’ shmuel kamenetzky really agree to this? Does R’ Elya brudny?

12. Reb Chaim said YES to get invloved. I saw the video.
    Reb Shmuel Shlit”a said YES to vote. I heard the recording.
    Reb Yitzchak Berkovtiz proved how its not just about the money, but actual saving yiddin.

13. > We do not intend to impugn the honor of those distinguished rabbis who ruled that it is permitted.
    a more literal translation:
    It is not our intention to impugn the honor of Torah of important talmidei chachamim that permitted.

14. Just to make sure I get this correct, it’s OK to take tax dollars from the zionist rshoyim but not to take money from other zionist sources?

15. It would be a big toeles harabim if they or someone else would explain clearly how this differs from voting for Knesset elections.

16. Good to see they’re on top of the important nitpicking, instead of paying attention to major issues like abuse and agunos. Tuition.

    Instead, let’s nitpick the difference between our beige version of frumness and their taupe version of frumness. They’re so very different.

    I put my trust in the gedolim. They have our best interests at heart.

17. Is this an an anonymous letter?

18. yeshivishrubbish:
    As in rubbish? No gedolim said to vote unless they were told lies to get them to sat that.

19. Moshe1994:
    That happens to be also assur, as Rav Avigdor Miller pointed out back then, but what does that have to do with the WZO?

20. I am unclear how this site continues to maintain neutrality on this matter when;

    A) they receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising revenue from “Eretz Hakodesh” their response that they allow others to advertise on their site as well, which even if true does not undue their bias because YWN knows that no one can match that type of money they therefore stand much to gain by continuing to prop up This Zionist/Reform front.

    B) They put Reb Chaims Suppossed Psak as a disclaimer to readers when reading about the Lakewood kinnus. Saying he was pro it. when at best its controversial that Reb Chaim actually paskened in favor of this movement and at worse was outright debunked. Putting that as fact is pretty biased in addition to being pretty bad journalism.

    C) They continuously write that they are unbiased and make it as if there is there two sides here and anyone can choose what side to be on. When virtually every American Rosh Hayeshiva, Gadol and posek has either clearly come out against it or has not publicly supported it. why doesn’t Ywn also showcase the other side of every issue that they push against and try to find some rav or torah personality that is pro? (example neturei karta) Sounds like a lot of bias and not following daas torah to me

    Moderators Response: “A) they receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising revenue from “Eretz Hakodesh”

    It’s in the millions. Not “hundreds of thousands”. And that does not include the tens of millions paid by Pfizer and other vaccination companies to YWN. Annually.

21. They are nice enough to not blast “Eretz HaKodesh” and to even call them “chareidim”.

    The WZO’s “Jerusalem Program” was amended only after EH had joined the WZO to now contain those lines about supporting Zionist Army service and Zionist National Service. Not only did EH allow that under its watch, but it also removed from its website any reference to supporting “toraso umanuso”.

    Just because of all the lies alone, no G-d-fearing Jew should listen to EH.

22. There are no names or signatures. Is this קול קורא authentic? Who is this מועצת? Agudah, The sefardim? is there another מועצת? Does anyone know?

23. Why is it that they do not wish to sign their names to their binding proclamation? Supreme Court decisions, for instance, carry signatures of all justices and tell us who voted withy the majority and who with the minority. Plus there are signed opinions from the minority as well.
    It’s interesting that the Mo’etzes doesn’t work the same way. Anyone know why?

24. Was this signed by ALL the members of the Moetzes? Some? A majority? Don’t we usually see signatures at the bottom of all kol koreis from the Moetztes? We all know that Rav Aharon Feldman and Rav Malkiel are against voting in the WZO but do they speak for everyone on the Moetzes?
    We could use some clarity on this, and I think it would be worth pressuring the Agudah to clarify this.

    Moderators Note: “Don’t we usually see signatures at the bottom of all kol koreis from the Moetztes?”

    Almost never.

    SOME RANDOM EXAMPLES:

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1802271/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-agudath-israel-issues-kol-korei-regarding-the-sanctity-of-shabbos.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/14307/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-urge-everyone-to-vote.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/15249/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-call-to-get-out-the-vote-heard-around-the-country-2.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2375286/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-america-call-for-yom-tefillah-over-threats-being-faced-by-bnei-yeshiva-in-eretz-yisroel.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2275554/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-america-decry-israels-nixing-of-draft-exemptions-for-chareidim.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2295971/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-declare-this-friday-a-yom-tefillah.html

25. Technically yes if you vote for Democrats you’re voting against your own people so I could see the same logic. Finally at least a consensus and a united front, I was debating what to do. Got my answer

26. The Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah virtually never puts their names signed on their Kol Koreh’s, because they are reached by consensus, so by definitely it was unanimously agreed upon be all members of the Moetzes.

27. Moderator:
    Ur examples do say there from Agudah

28. Hakatan, I’m not sure if your name referrs to your size or iq, but I could tell you lots of gedolim, but there is no need to go further than my rosh yeshiva reb avrohom gurwicz shlita, with whom I’ve personally discussed this matter with, and I can assure you he hasn’t been misfed information, he knows exactly what he’s saying about it, and spent a long time thinking it through and came to this conclusion….

29. למען ציון לא אשקוט
    Anyone defying this פסוק doesn’t belong in Shul on שבת נצבים

30. There is a story about a great Rabbi that inherited millions dollars and this rabbi didn’t take a penny of it cause it meant that his relatives that was his good friends but michalel shabbos will also get it, so it’s unbelievable this Rabbi maybe a poor man didn’t take a penny from this inheritance so that his relatives that don’t keep torah also won’t get the money, but it’s more unbelievable why they didn’t decide to keep shabbos to get the money from the old man, it is kind boggling how anybody that has any fathom of what the Israeli army is can say to support such a thing, to take on themselves the same swearing of the Israeli army at the kosel, a place of kefira that kills and spills the blood of any soul not to mention a Jewish, how any person on earth with a mind and gemorah can say to join them, david hamelech didn’t want to wash his hands on the blood of those men and that was on for the physical a thousand times the spiritual, anybody over fifty knows that the Israeli army smothered Jewish souls like beyond any imagination, and the thing is even the zionist themselves hate the zionist, if they would see hertzel again they would kill him with lust, how can a Torah Jew say the zionist was not worse then the Nazi when they themselves say they was, but a Torah Jew should say zionism, that we like them, they made kedusha in Israel rather then only tuma that they helped us and give us more money, crazy

31. We’ve heard often that rav Shmuel was pro voting, yet was present at todays meeting where they concluded against voting

    So we know rav Shmuel’s yay is now a nay

    We can easily say the same thing about Reb Chaim’s yay
    and I can surmise that rav Shmuel would tell you that it -rav Chaim’s yay, would now be an unequivocal nay

32. Very odd! The KOL KOREH of Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah Of America is UNSIGNED. Not one signature. Isn’t that strange?! I always see a whole bunch of signatures. But this time, there aren’t any! I wonder what that means.

33. Zionism may have changed, but the WZO has not. When you join the WZO, you join the bad Zionism.

    R’ Aron Feldmen RY Ner Yisroel observed that in the video where Rabbi Chaim supposedly gave his approval, he didn’t actually hear the question the first time, his grandson had to repeat it in his ear. Notably, the grandson didn’t mention the WZO. Moreover, Rabbi Chaim responded with an inaudible word, which could be either ‘Ken’ or ‘Nein’. So basically it all comes down to a single, inaudible word from Rabbi Chaim, who didn’t even hear the question about the WZO.

    As a citizen of Israel, you’re already subject to the government’s authority, regardless of whether you join the Knesset. Joining the Knesset is more about protecting yourself from a government that already holds power over you. In contrast, the WZO has no legal authority over anyone and exists solely to promote its ideology.

    The real question I’d like someone to explain to me is: how is joining the WZO different from joining, for example, Jews for Jesus, Reform organizations, or pro-Palestinian groups? I’m sure these groups have bigger budgets, and yeshivas could potentially benefit from them while depriving those with opposing views of resources.

34. A bit of context behind the scenes
    1.aguda certainly did not want to get shleppd into this parsha, nothing to gain and more pressing issues
    2. The plan was shev veal taaseh
    3. Rav Feldman shlita and rav malkiel both on the moetzes have been very passionate about this issue
    4. Rav shmuel k shlita told rav Feldman on the phone he is not pulling back , but if asked today would not sign because he felt checking the box is not glatt emes, but he very weak no koach,
    5 rav elya brudny had a new angle and that is that now rav dov landau is the manhig and very detrimental to the tzibur… bad precedent..to ignore
    his vocal psak
    6 veyolepol and ry horowitz have no problem signing so it was a majority ,
    The agreement was no names

35. Don’t forget Eli stefansky said to vote

36. The KOL KOREH: O-U Orthodox Union sayscwe MUST vote. Guess who I rely on for kashrus, O-U or Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah Of America? If I trust the O-U for kashrus, I trust them on the issue of voting.

37. 1- Other Gedolim who hold otherwise are ALSO negating Torah? Rebono Shel Olam send us Moshiach. We think like our host country and we are truly assimilated with their tumah. RSO, Please forgive us. As chafetz Chaim said. It is not our fault. We are in Galus and we are all confused. This is how democrats talk. They like to characterize everything. Whoever is on their team is always judged favorably and whoever is not is characterized negatively!
    2- Before the Holocaust, it was politically correct to call us dirty Jews in the streets of Europe. After the Holocaust, no longer it was politically correct. Instead, the Great Britain coined a new terminology, called Zionists. it is politically correct to be anti Zionist, but not anti-Jewish. Guess what? No thanks my enemies, I know who I am. My ONLY name is a Yid ( Yehudi) . Why do you let this Amalek called Great Britain, break us apart? I refuse to call myself or anyone else Zionist. This is all while in my prayers I mention sion 3 x a day.
    3- Shevet Reuen wated to help the Shevet Binyamin in their internal problems. Chazal criticized them: Binyamin people are big boys. They can take care of themselves. who are we to mingle with the Israeli affairs? They literally have their own giants and Daas Torah!
    4- No matter how bad these so called Zionist people are ( And yes, many of them are shomer Shabbos), we owe them a big sense of Hakaras Hatov. a) They have been supporting us for the past 70 plus year so that we can sit and learn. b) For the first time in a long time in history, they have enabled us, the benie Gola, to safely travel to the Eretz hakodesh and get a Shtikele dose of Ruchnius! c) Let’s be honest. they are getting killed for us so that the enemies of the Jewish people do not kill us over here. So we can live in a spoiled fashion in America! They are fighting our fight. THAY ARE FIGHTING THE MILCHEMES MITZVAH according to Rav SZ Oerbeach ZL, Rav Moshe, Rav eliyashiv, and the titzz Eliezer, just to name a very few. Look at the Haftah of Beshalch. In the 3rd part of the Devorah’s Shirah, she calls all those who battle in the wars as Ozrei Hashem. Because of the word “Ozrei”, the mefarshim are puzzled in whose Zechos we will win wars. In the zechos of the soldiers (since moshe rabenu’s time till TODAY) or lumdei Torah? I am serious: MY NAME is Yehudi. The word Yehudi comes from Hodaah. I like to humble myself and be Makir Tov to any Yid who sacrifices his life for me and my family!
    5- Let’s be honest. Rabbi Wein writes in his book that Chafetz Chaim was the first one to say that we need to have our own state. If we the frum people failed to be Zelous with the chafetz Chaim’s command and the seculars grabbed the Mitzvah ( accoribg to the Ramban) of establishing the Jewish governer, then we have no one to blame than ourselves.
    6- Let’s be honest the so called Zionist of 75 years ago is not the same today. In the merit of their work many of the people who would have been assimilated in the Chotz Laaretz are Shomer Torah today. This includes the children of the most Zionist people. Example: Children of Liberman and Bibi. Look how many Jews are lost to Reform, reconstructinist, athist in America and look at what speed people are becoming Frum in Israel! So who are we to Judge the Darchei Hashem. We celebrate these Besimcha rather than making derogatory comments. ( With Mechila from the Moetzes gedolei)
    7- Perhaps it would be more in line with the Torah values to encourage people to stay away from anything that causes rift. What’s is more important in the eyes of Hashem? unity and Hakaras Hatov or appearing more frum by mocking others? If we are afraid of getting influenced by the so called Zionist people, then we should seriously look at our Chinuch system. Perhaps we have failed to instill Yiraas Shamaim in our people, because we have spent all our energy and focus on Norishkait and devarim Betalim.
    Again, I am not a so called Zionist person, nor I care about voting, nor I mean to be disrespectful to anyone. But we need to know that at this very difficult time of war, Hashem is telling us something: Wake up, love each other, and stay UNITED. As the Navi Yeshayaho says, it is not enough that I should be frum. The achrayos is on me to assure that everyone is also close to our creator. We claim to be frum. Then we should know better and act like a Jew and not like a democrat who tries to protect his political camp! STAY AWAY FROM MACHLOKES> PLEASE

38. YWN Moderator,
    The examples (of letters signed by Moetzes) you gave are fairly recent the earliest being from 2008.
    Can you check in archives if they always signed as a group and not by individual names?
    I’m middle aged and remember as a child, memorising the members of the Moetzes [I didn’t follow sports] of the time like R Moshe, R Yakov, R Ruderman, Bluzhov Rebbe, Boston Rebbe, Klausenberg Rebbe and R Mordechai Gifter and R Mordechai Schwab ZTZ”L. Can you please check that era?

39. Here’s the other side of this:

    I heard from gedolim the difference between joining the הסתדרות in the early days of Zionism, which was pushing the ESTABLISHMENT of the state, and joining the Knesset which is running the existing state.

    Since they already highjacked EY and are running it in a “democratic” system – more or less – you cannot sit back and say “I don’t recognize the state” and not vote, because weather you like it or not you’re part of the population and part of the pie, and if you don’t vote it is essentially a vote for the other side – (words of the Steipeler Ztz”l).

40. And at this point, the WZO is the same thing. They are running the existing state as a “Jewish” state based on what “Jews” want. Staying out of the vote is basically a vote for the terrible left. It’s a chutzpah and a scam for them to only let you influence the country’s agenda if you sign on to their כפירה ideology. They don’t own the land, nor were they the first to settle there. By signing and voting you are just מציל מידם (see Avodah Zara 13a).

41. @DrYidd – Are you also going to say that as far as halachah is concerned we n o longer have to listen to The Tur, to Maran Beit Yosef or The Rema, to the Magen Avrohom, Shach, or Taz, to the Aruch HaShulchan or the Mihnah Berurah?

42. @Big Bob – The Moetzes Gedolei Yisroel of AIA includes the Ziknei Roshei Yeshivah and Rabbonim of the Sfardim, Litvish, and Chasiddisheh communities. Certainly one may/should follow the Rabbonim of their community (as opposed to the Rabbonim who simply agree with them in this or another matter. However, if one is aligned with the Olam HaYeshivos and not part of the Satmar Kehillos, then it would seem we are obligated to follow the leaders of that “camp.” I can’t just say that for this I will go with the Rosh Yeshivah of Gateshead, on this matter with the Modern Orthodox camp, and only on this with the Yeshivah World. It just doesn’t and shouldn’t work like that.

43. an Israeli Zionist:
    The truth is that according to some it is indeed forbidden for Israelis to vote in Israeli elections, but some do permit that because Israelis are necessarily part of their government regardless of their wishes on the matter so they are therefore allowed to vote in those elections and that a government is theoretically just a governing body, not ideological.

    The WZO, on the other hand, is a heretical ideological organization. As well, Jews are in no way required to be members of that organization unless they choose to do so.

44. MDshweks:
    No, the WZO is not the “same thing”. They are an ideological organization, heretical at that, and do not make laws, etc. They can influence, of course, but so can the Catholic Church and lots of other organizations; that’s not a justification to discard over a century of universal halachic precedent absolutely forbidding joining the WZO.

45. ahava:
    You should speak to a competent rabbi and perhaps also an historian about the delusions you posted here.

    Fun fact: The Zionists invaded the area long before 1948, against the wishes of the Jews, and set the region aflame. Even with the Zionist fights and terror against both the administering British and local Arabs, Jews were still able to pray at the Kosel in the early 20th century.

    That came to an end when, in 1948, the Zionists declared their “independence” against the wishes of the UN who wanted to start a new mandate there, and the Zionists specifically disregarded the warnings to leave Jerusalem as an international city. When the Zionists attempted to capture Jerusalem anyways, that compelled the Jordanians to join the battle, and they then captured Jerusalem.

    So much more could be (and has been) written about how the Zionists have caused cataclysmic damage to the Jews for over a century.

46. Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname:
    You have it backwards. Your question should be how it is that you can trust the OU for kashrus when it is ideologically (at least in part) incompatible with the Torah.

47. It is interesting to note that other Kol Koreh that I found all contain the logo of Agudath Yisrael of America, this one does not and as of this morning is not even on the Agudah website. There is nothing new here. The Rosh Yeshiva who represent the Peleg group (Satamar on this issue) are pushing for their voice to be heard. The other Gedolim do not agree. The opinion of all Gedolai Yisrael should be respected and everyone should follow their way of thinking with guidance of their Rav. It is a shame that a Machlokes in Eretz Yisrael was introduced here in America… the Novermisker Rebbe warned against this.

    Moderators Note: For the sake of accuracy, the English version has the Agudah logo on the piece of stationary. Look at the bottom right.