72 Responses

1. Thanks, I’ll still listen to my gedolim who say yes to vote

2. Using the same logic, shouldn’t it also be Assur to vote for Democrats?

3. Best I can tell none of the rabbis listed were talking about this year’s WZO vote. The moetzet can decide to forbid voting; they cannot claim those not living would agree. Circumstances change, which is why other rabbi’s encourage voting.

4. No, Democrats is a political party of the US government. Joining the US government is not Assur.

5. Neat, how they completely ignore Reb Chaim

6. Just like they ignored Reb Chaim’s Shita on “the freezer”

7. Reb Chaim said YES to get invloved. I saw the video.
   Reb Shmuel Shlit”a said YES to vote. I heard the recording.
   Reb Yitzchak Berkovtiz proved how its not just about the money, but actual saving yiddin.

   Some of the other rabbanim are EITZ voters.

8. Based on this logic, it should be Assur to participate on Israeli elections or join an Israeli government – but somehow, that’s not being considered.

   This Kol Koreh is also based on both a distortion of what the “purpose” of the Zionist movement was (it wasn’t uniform then – and the parts that were always more attached to Torah and tradition are the ones in ascendance now), and on a failure to pasken today based on the situation today vs. based on the situation close to 100 years ago.

   an Israeli Yid

9. Every representative in the Knesset has to officially identify with the Zionist state

10. Is there a reason there are no signatures?

11. I don’t plan on voting, but I can’t help feeling uneasy (to say the least) about how “one” side of this machlokes is going about their argument. Coming out with such a “mafia force” about a debate that seems to be really split amongst the gedolim, and that both sides have a good argument, doesn’t look like the reasoning can be relayed in a calm, logical and CONFIDENT manner. I’m really not sure how many gedolim WOULD be ok with voting if they wouldn’t be afraid to say so. Why are there no names on this? Which moetzes is this? Agudah? Why doesn’t it say Agudah? Does R’ shmuel kamenetzky really agree to this? Does R’ Elya brudny?

12. Reb Chaim said YES to get invloved. I saw the video.
    Reb Shmuel Shlit”a said YES to vote. I heard the recording.
    Reb Yitzchak Berkovtiz proved how its not just about the money, but actual saving yiddin.

13. > We do not intend to impugn the honor of those distinguished rabbis who ruled that it is permitted.
    a more literal translation:
    It is not our intention to impugn the honor of Torah of important talmidei chachamim that permitted.

14. Just to make sure I get this correct, it’s OK to take tax dollars from the zionist rshoyim but not to take money from other zionist sources?

15. It would be a big toeles harabim if they or someone else would explain clearly how this differs from voting for Knesset elections.

16. Good to see they’re on top of the important nitpicking, instead of paying attention to major issues like abuse and agunos. Tuition.

    Instead, let’s nitpick the difference between our beige version of frumness and their taupe version of frumness. They’re so very different.

    I put my trust in the gedolim. They have our best interests at heart.

17. Is this an an anonymous letter?

18. yeshivishrubbish:
    As in rubbish? No gedolim said to vote unless they were told lies to get them to sat that.

19. Moshe1994:
    That happens to be also assur, as Rav Avigdor Miller pointed out back then, but what does that have to do with the WZO?

20. I am unclear how this site continues to maintain neutrality on this matter when;

    A) they receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising revenue from “Eretz Hakodesh” their response that they allow others to advertise on their site as well, which even if true does not undue their bias because YWN knows that no one can match that type of money they therefore stand much to gain by continuing to prop up This Zionist/Reform front.

    B) They put Reb Chaims Suppossed Psak as a disclaimer to readers when reading about the Lakewood kinnus. Saying he was pro it. when at best its controversial that Reb Chaim actually paskened in favor of this movement and at worse was outright debunked. Putting that as fact is pretty biased in addition to being pretty bad journalism.

    C) They continuously write that they are unbiased and make it as if there is there two sides here and anyone can choose what side to be on. When virtually every American Rosh Hayeshiva, Gadol and posek has either clearly come out against it or has not publicly supported it. why doesn’t Ywn also showcase the other side of every issue that they push against and try to find some rav or torah personality that is pro? (example neturei karta) Sounds like a lot of bias and not following daas torah to me

    Moderators Response: “A) they receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising revenue from “Eretz Hakodesh”

    It’s in the millions. Not “hundreds of thousands”. And that does not include the tens of millions paid by Pfizer and other vaccination companies to YWN. Annually.

21. They are nice enough to not blast “Eretz HaKodesh” and to even call them “chareidim”.

    The WZO’s “Jerusalem Program” was amended only after EH had joined the WZO to now contain those lines about supporting Zionist Army service and Zionist National Service. Not only did EH allow that under its watch, but it also removed from its website any reference to supporting “toraso umanuso”.

    Just because of all the lies alone, no G-d-fearing Jew should listen to EH.

22. There are no names or signatures. Is this קול קורא authentic? Who is this מועצת? Agudah, The sefardim? is there another מועצת? Does anyone know?

23. Why is it that they do not wish to sign their names to their binding proclamation? Supreme Court decisions, for instance, carry signatures of all justices and tell us who voted withy the majority and who with the minority. Plus there are signed opinions from the minority as well.
    It’s interesting that the Mo’etzes doesn’t work the same way. Anyone know why?

24. Was this signed by ALL the members of the Moetzes? Some? A majority? Don’t we usually see signatures at the bottom of all kol koreis from the Moetztes? We all know that Rav Aharon Feldman and Rav Malkiel are against voting in the WZO but do they speak for everyone on the Moetzes?
    We could use some clarity on this, and I think it would be worth pressuring the Agudah to clarify this.

    Moderators Note: “Don’t we usually see signatures at the bottom of all kol koreis from the Moetztes?”

    Almost never.

    SOME RANDOM EXAMPLES:

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1802271/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-agudath-israel-issues-kol-korei-regarding-the-sanctity-of-shabbos.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/14307/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-urge-everyone-to-vote.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/15249/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-call-to-get-out-the-vote-heard-around-the-country-2.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2375286/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-america-call-for-yom-tefillah-over-threats-being-faced-by-bnei-yeshiva-in-eretz-yisroel.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2275554/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-america-decry-israels-nixing-of-draft-exemptions-for-chareidim.html

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2295971/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-declare-this-friday-a-yom-tefillah.html

25. Technically yes if you vote for Democrats you’re voting against your own people so I could see the same logic. Finally at least a consensus and a united front, I was debating what to do. Got my answer

26. The Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah virtually never puts their names signed on their Kol Koreh’s, because they are reached by consensus, so by definitely it was unanimously agreed upon be all members of the Moetzes.

27. Moderator:
    Ur examples do say there from Agudah

28. Hakatan, I’m not sure if your name referrs to your size or iq, but I could tell you lots of gedolim, but there is no need to go further than my rosh yeshiva reb avrohom gurwicz shlita, with whom I’ve personally discussed this matter with, and I can assure you he hasn’t been misfed information, he knows exactly what he’s saying about it, and spent a long time thinking it through and came to this conclusion….

29. למען ציון לא אשקוט
    Anyone defying this פסוק doesn’t belong in Shul on שבת נצבים

30. There is a story about a great Rabbi that inherited millions dollars and this rabbi didn’t take a penny of it cause it meant that his relatives that was his good friends but michalel shabbos will also get it, so it’s unbelievable this Rabbi maybe a poor man didn’t take a penny from this inheritance so that his relatives that don’t keep torah also won’t get the money, but it’s more unbelievable why they didn’t decide to keep shabbos to get the money from the old man, it is kind boggling how anybody that has any fathom of what the Israeli army is can say to support such a thing, to take on themselves the same swearing of the Israeli army at the kosel, a place of kefira that kills and spills the blood of any soul not to mention a Jewish, how any person on earth with a mind and gemorah can say to join them, david hamelech didn’t want to wash his hands on the blood of those men and that was on for the physical a thousand times the spiritual, anybody over fifty knows that the Israeli army smothered Jewish souls like beyond any imagination, and the thing is even the zionist themselves hate the zionist, if they would see hertzel again they would kill him with lust, how can a Torah Jew say the zionist was not worse then the Nazi when they themselves say they was, but a Torah Jew should say zionism, that we like them, they made kedusha in Israel rather then only tuma that they helped us and give us more money, crazy

31. We’ve heard often that rav Shmuel was pro voting, yet was present at todays meeting where they concluded against voting

    So we know rav Shmuel’s yay is now a nay

    We can easily say the same thing about Reb Chaim’s yay
    and I can surmise that rav Shmuel would tell you that it -rav Chaim’s yay, would now be an unequivocal nay

32. Very odd! The KOL KOREH of Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah Of America is UNSIGNED. Not one signature. Isn’t that strange?! I always see a whole bunch of signatures. But this time, there aren’t any! I wonder what that means.

33. Zionism may have changed, but the WZO has not. When you join the WZO, you join the bad Zionism.

    R’ Aron Feldmen RY Ner Yisroel observed that in the video where Rabbi Chaim supposedly gave his approval, he didn’t actually hear the question the first time, his grandson had to repeat it in his ear. Notably, the grandson didn’t mention the WZO. Moreover, Rabbi Chaim responded with an inaudible word, which could be either ‘Ken’ or ‘Nein’. So basically it all comes down to a single, inaudible word from Rabbi Chaim, who didn’t even hear the question about the WZO.

    As a citizen of Israel, you’re already subject to the government’s authority, regardless of whether you join the Knesset. Joining the Knesset is more about protecting yourself from a government that already holds power over you. In contrast, the WZO has no legal authority over anyone and exists solely to promote its ideology.

    The real question I’d like someone to explain to me is: how is joining the WZO different from joining, for example, Jews for Jesus, Reform organizations, or pro-Palestinian groups? I’m sure these groups have bigger budgets, and yeshivas could potentially benefit from them while depriving those with opposing views of resources.

34. A bit of context behind the scenes
    1.aguda certainly did not want to get shleppd into this parsha, nothing to gain and more pressing issues
    2. The plan was shev veal taaseh
    3. Rav Feldman shlita and rav malkiel both on the moetzes have been very passionate about this issue
    4. Rav shmuel k shlita told rav Feldman on the phone he is not pulling back , but if asked today would not sign because he felt checking the box is not glatt emes, but he very weak no koach,
    5 rav elya brudny had a new angle and that is that now rav dov landau is the manhig and very detrimental to the tzibur… bad precedent..to ignore
    his vocal psak
    6 veyolepol and ry horowitz have no problem signing so it was a majority ,
    The agreement was no names

35. Don’t forget Eli stefansky said to vote

36. The KOL KOREH: O-U Orthodox Union sayscwe MUST vote. Guess who I rely on for kashrus, O-U or Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah Of America? If I trust the O-U for kashrus, I trust them on the issue of voting.

37. 1- Other Gedolim who hold otherwise are ALSO negating Torah? Rebono Shel Olam send us Moshiach. We think like our host country and we are truly assimilated with their tumah. RSO, Please forgive us. As chafetz Chaim said. It is not our fault. We are in Galus and we are all confused. This is how democrats talk. They like to characterize everything. Whoever is on their team is always judged favorably and whoever is not is characterized negatively!
    2- Before the Holocaust, it was politically correct to call us dirty Jews in the streets of Europe. After the Holocaust, no longer it was politically correct. Instead, the Great Britain coined a new terminology, called Zionists. it is politically correct to be anti Zionist, but not anti-Jewish. Guess what? No thanks my enemies, I know who I am. My ONLY name is a Yid ( Yehudi) . Why do you let this Amalek called Great Britain, break us apart? I refuse to call myself or anyone else Zionist. This is all while in my prayers I mention sion 3 x a day.
    3- Shevet Reuen wated to help the Shevet Binyamin in their internal problems. Chazal criticized them: Binyamin people are big boys. They can take care of themselves. who are we to mingle with the Israeli affairs? They literally have their own giants and Daas Torah!
    4- No matter how bad these so called Zionist people are ( And yes, many of them are shomer Shabbos), we owe them a big sense of Hakaras Hatov. a) They have been supporting us for the past 70 plus year so that we can sit and learn. b) For the first time in a long time in history, they have enabled us, the benie Gola, to safely travel to the Eretz hakodesh and get a Shtikele dose of Ruchnius! c) Let’s be honest. they are getting killed for us so that the enemies of the Jewish people do not kill us over here. So we can live in a spoiled fashion in America! They are fighting our fight. THAY ARE FIGHTING THE MILCHEMES MITZVAH according to Rav SZ Oerbeach ZL, Rav Moshe, Rav eliyashiv, and the titzz Eliezer, just to name a very few. Look at the Haftah of Beshalch. In the 3rd part of the Devorah’s Shirah, she calls all those who battle in the wars as Ozrei Hashem. Because of the word “Ozrei”, the mefarshim are puzzled in whose Zechos we will win wars. In the zechos of the soldiers (since moshe rabenu’s time till TODAY) or lumdei Torah? I am serious: MY NAME is Yehudi. The word Yehudi comes from Hodaah. I like to humble myself and be Makir Tov to any Yid who sacrifices his life for me and my family!
    5- Let’s be honest. Rabbi Wein writes in his book that Chafetz Chaim was the first one to say that we need to have our own state. If we the frum people failed to be Zelous with the chafetz Chaim’s command and the seculars grabbed the Mitzvah ( accoribg to the Ramban) of establishing the Jewish governer, then we have no one to blame than ourselves.
    6- Let’s be honest the so called Zionist of 75 years ago is not the same today. In the merit of their work many of the people who would have been assimilated in the Chotz Laaretz are Shomer Torah today. This includes the children of the most Zionist people. Example: Children of Liberman and Bibi. Look how many Jews are lost to Reform, reconstructinist, athist in America and look at what speed people are becoming Frum in Israel! So who are we to Judge the Darchei Hashem. We celebrate these Besimcha rather than making derogatory comments. ( With Mechila from the Moetzes gedolei)
    7- Perhaps it would be more in line with the Torah values to encourage people to stay away from anything that causes rift. What’s is more important in the eyes of Hashem? unity and Hakaras Hatov or appearing more frum by mocking others? If we are afraid of getting influenced by the so called Zionist people, then we should seriously look at our Chinuch system. Perhaps we have failed to instill Yiraas Shamaim in our people, because we have spent all our energy and focus on Norishkait and devarim Betalim.
    Again, I am not a so called Zionist person, nor I care about voting, nor I mean to be disrespectful to anyone. But we need to know that at this very difficult time of war, Hashem is telling us something: Wake up, love each other, and stay UNITED. As the Navi Yeshayaho says, it is not enough that I should be frum. The achrayos is on me to assure that everyone is also close to our creator. We claim to be frum. Then we should know better and act like a Jew and not like a democrat who tries to protect his political camp! STAY AWAY FROM MACHLOKES> PLEASE

38. YWN Moderator,
    The examples (of letters signed by Moetzes) you gave are fairly recent the earliest being from 2008.
    Can you check in archives if they always signed as a group and not by individual names?
    I’m middle aged and remember as a child, memorising the members of the Moetzes [I didn’t follow sports] of the time like R Moshe, R Yakov, R Ruderman, Bluzhov Rebbe, Boston Rebbe, Klausenberg Rebbe and R Mordechai Gifter and R Mordechai Schwab ZTZ”L. Can you please check that era?

39. Here’s the other side of this:

    I heard from gedolim the difference between joining the הסתדרות in the early days of Zionism, which was pushing the ESTABLISHMENT of the state, and joining the Knesset which is running the existing state.

    Since they already highjacked EY and are running it in a “democratic” system – more or less – you cannot sit back and say “I don’t recognize the state” and not vote, because weather you like it or not you’re part of the population and part of the pie, and if you don’t vote it is essentially a vote for the other side – (words of the Steipeler Ztz”l).

40. And at this point, the WZO is the same thing. They are running the existing state as a “Jewish” state based on what “Jews” want. Staying out of the vote is basically a vote for the terrible left. It’s a chutzpah and a scam for them to only let you influence the country’s agenda if you sign on to their כפירה ideology. They don’t own the land, nor were they the first to settle there. By signing and voting you are just מציל מידם (see Avodah Zara 13a).

41. @DrYidd – Are you also going to say that as far as halachah is concerned we n o longer have to listen to The Tur, to Maran Beit Yosef or The Rema, to the Magen Avrohom, Shach, or Taz, to the Aruch HaShulchan or the Mihnah Berurah?

42. @Big Bob – The Moetzes Gedolei Yisroel of AIA includes the Ziknei Roshei Yeshivah and Rabbonim of the Sfardim, Litvish, and Chasiddisheh communities. Certainly one may/should follow the Rabbonim of their community (as opposed to the Rabbonim who simply agree with them in this or another matter. However, if one is aligned with the Olam HaYeshivos and not part of the Satmar Kehillos, then it would seem we are obligated to follow the leaders of that “camp.” I can’t just say that for this I will go with the Rosh Yeshivah of Gateshead, on this matter with the Modern Orthodox camp, and only on this with the Yeshivah World. It just doesn’t and shouldn’t work like that.

43. an Israeli Zionist:
    The truth is that according to some it is indeed forbidden for Israelis to vote in Israeli elections, but some do permit that because Israelis are necessarily part of their government regardless of their wishes on the matter so they are therefore allowed to vote in those elections and that a government is theoretically just a governing body, not ideological.

    The WZO, on the other hand, is a heretical ideological organization. As well, Jews are in no way required to be members of that organization unless they choose to do so.

44. MDshweks:
    No, the WZO is not the “same thing”. They are an ideological organization, heretical at that, and do not make laws, etc. They can influence, of course, but so can the Catholic Church and lots of other organizations; that’s not a justification to discard over a century of universal halachic precedent absolutely forbidding joining the WZO.

45. ahava:
    You should speak to a competent rabbi and perhaps also an historian about the delusions you posted here.

    Fun fact: The Zionists invaded the area long before 1948, against the wishes of the Jews, and set the region aflame. Even with the Zionist fights and terror against both the administering British and local Arabs, Jews were still able to pray at the Kosel in the early 20th century.

    That came to an end when, in 1948, the Zionists declared their “independence” against the wishes of the UN who wanted to start a new mandate there, and the Zionists specifically disregarded the warnings to leave Jerusalem as an international city. When the Zionists attempted to capture Jerusalem anyways, that compelled the Jordanians to join the battle, and they then captured Jerusalem.

    So much more could be (and has been) written about how the Zionists have caused cataclysmic damage to the Jews for over a century.

46. Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname:
    You have it backwards. Your question should be how it is that you can trust the OU for kashrus when it is ideologically (at least in part) incompatible with the Torah.

47. It is interesting to note that other Kol Koreh that I found all contain the logo of Agudath Yisrael of America, this one does not and as of this morning is not even on the Agudah website. There is nothing new here. The Rosh Yeshiva who represent the Peleg group (Satamar on this issue) are pushing for their voice to be heard. The other Gedolim do not agree. The opinion of all Gedolai Yisrael should be respected and everyone should follow their way of thinking with guidance of their Rav. It is a shame that a Machlokes in Eretz Yisrael was introduced here in America… the Novermisker Rebbe warned against this.

    Moderators Note: For the sake of accuracy, the English version has the Agudah logo on the piece of stationary. Look at the bottom right.

48. bay_dad:

    You need to get your ears cleaned out and rewatch the video of Reb Chaim

    Yanki Kanievsky clearly told his grandfather “Histadrut Hatziyonit” (WZO) and Reb Chaim’s response was very audible and he said Yah = Yiddish for yes

    So please stop with the distortions

49. Hakatan: Is it possible that you need to speak with a competent Rav and learn the history a little yourself? I mentioned that democrats attack if tgey don’t like the opposing views and start insulting others. You are over the issur of Onnas devarim by calling me delusional. Check with you Rav. Having said this, you make it sound that moslems were angles until the Zionist came. Simply not true, tge Sephardic population was never allowed to grow. All these years , moslems they either killed them or converted them to Islam. Just travel to Iran or Afghanistan. You will find moslem woman to thus very day light candles on Friday nights. When you ask them, they will tell you that their great great grand mothers did it. The Sephardic population is starting to grow now after, they got rescued by the Zionist. Yes, the Jews of Iran for example, we’re not allowed to learn or publish anything for the past 1200 years under Islam. Now, every since the zionists put everything to flames, the same group of people are producing the biggest Talmedi Hachamin in Israel. Perhaps you need to educate yourself about the history of the Jews and the persecution they went through. Talk to any Sephardic Jew and please stop insulting me.

50. WackyWay:

    First, tell this to R’ Aron Feldman he made this observation in a public speech last week in Lakewood.

    Second, Histadrut Hatziyonut is not the WZO, its what’s called The Zionist Federation and was established like 20 years after Herzl and his gang established the WZO. Granted, it may be very similar to the WZO but its still a total different entity.

51. to lgj. I greatly respect eli stefansky. however he is a nobody in the face of the gedolei hador.

52. Shuali, a rather silly question; of course we consult major sifrei psak of previous generations. HOWEVER, we have to determine whether there is a relevant distinction between the situations being addressed.

    Read for example, the famous psak of the Baal HaLevushim, Rav Yaffe ztl, on men and women sitting together at weddings. Psak turns on circumstance not just past positions of gedolai ho’raah

53. is there a way i could speak to bay-dad. i am fully on your side and wantd chizuk how could anyone have the chutzpa to argue with the gedolei torah? this is what chutzpah yasgi means, that in the generation of moshiach, chutzpa yasgi. who are we small people to get involved in arguing with gedolei hador. this is like korach and his eida who said “kulam kedoshim. that is false. we listen to the gedolei hador

54. ahava:
    I didn’t call you delusional. Please reread. I do apologize if you took offense, though. Relatively speaking, the Muslims were indeed far, far, less hateful until the Zionists came. Please look at the history (and current events).

    I have indeed done just as you suggested and spoken to sefardic Jews. More facts: the sefardim who came to Israel from Arab countries – after the Zionists lured them there promising them to settle them in Netanya and the like on the beach and then dumped them in war zones (like in the north) and, of course, shmaded their children who are now at least grandparents of generations of shmad – generally had many children.

    In fact, that was one of the reasons the wicked Zionists perpetrated the yaldei teiman atrocities: because they figured that they have so many kids anyways so the wicked Zionists didn’t see a problem with the horrific evil they perpetrated on sefardic Jews.

55. bay_dad:

    If Rav Feldman tells you that now at 11:48 am its really 11:48 pm, will you follow what he says (regarding any and all such halachik ramifications? I sure hope not

    I still trust my ears and eyes, and Reb Chaim clearly said yes, and Reb Chaims son confirms that

    And regarding Histadrut Hatziyonut vs WZO, would Rav Feldman agree that one may vote for Histadrut Hatziyonut ????? Of course not. So this pathetic attempt at splitting hairs doesn’t change anything

56. Hakatan: im sorry you continue to use inflammatory language, like wicked etc… that is halachically not permitted. First of all, you just contradicted yourself. You said Islam was relatively better to the Jews. Before you said everything was good with moslems until Zionist came. Dud you know that in central Iran, the moslems wiped out 1.5 million Jews by killing them or coverting them? Second, let’s live in present and not past. When the persecuted Sephardic Jews from Arab lands arrived in Israel, they had a total of around 10 people in the Kollelim. Today, the majority of the kollelim are filled by Sephardic men and no longer us, the Ashkenazi Jews. Trust me, my spouse is Sephardic. The understand and went through with centuries of persecution under the Arabs. Overall the Sephardic people frum or not frum yet are very Zionistic in their minds and prayers. We have a lot to learn from the Emunah peshuta of Sephardic people. We Ashkenazim, unfortunately find ourselves in controversial distractions like this. Having said that, unfortunately SOME new Sephardic leaders are learning from us in order to get involved with Norishkeit. The bottom line is that every Jew no matter how low they get are still precious in the eveys of אבינו שבשמיים. Look how Hashem punished Moshe Rabenu, Yeshayahoo Hanavi, and Eliyahoo Hanavi by using negative language on the people that were doing Mamash Avoda Zara. Our job is to not judge others , but ourselves. Our job is to love everybody and work on OUR OWN Yiraas Hashem first and then Ahavas Hashem.

57. Every morning we say “sh’e asah la-sechvi vi-nah l’havchim bein yom u’vein layla”.

    I don’t need anyone telling me if I should participate or not. Thank you.

58. Were the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah informed that 36% of the US delegates were Shomrei Torah u’Mitzvos in the previous WZC? and that they would likely do even better this time? That they might be able to win the majority of the US delegates this time, especially with the addition of the Aish Ha’am faction?

59. Here is what the voters have to pledge to support (from their website):
    (Shouldn’t each person ask their Moreh Hora’ah what they can or can’t support?)

    The Jerusalem Program

    Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the state of Israel, and views a Jewish, Zionist, Democratic and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.

    The foundations of Zionism are:
    The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation.
    Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.
    Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.
    Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values and teaching Hebrew as the national language;
    Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism;
    Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism
    Encouraging recruitment and service in the Israel Defense Forces and the security forces and strengthening them as the protective force of the Jewish people living in Zion, as well as encouraging full National Service for anyone exempted in law from service in the IDF.

60. Looking at many of the comments above, I’d recommend that YWN consider disabling comments on articles like this. It seems that many people believe their opinions on statements made by Gedolei Yisrael carry weight the same way the average joes’ opinions carry weight on statements made by elected officials.

    They don’t.

61. Note that the kol koreh admits that there are other Talmidei Chochomim that allow voting.

    Therefore, please do not say that the opposite opinion is illegitimate or, on the other side, that kol koreh is too harsh – they simply list their arguments in the hope that you will find them more persuasive than the other side. I am sure they would have done like beis Hillel and listed the other side’s arguments before theirs, but kol koreh is just one page!

    Given this, it should be totally legit to discuss pros and contras, in a respectful to both sides way, of course.

    Re: histadrut hatzionit. WZO would be “haolami” at the end, so the wording is ambiguous. Still, if we are to question R Chaim’s psak here, how do we trust the whole system here if we think that R Chaim did not understand, did not clarify, did not make sure his answer is understood on an important public question.

62. ahava:
    Really? Moshe Rabbeinu himself in the Torah called Dasan a rasha just because he was attempting to strike at Aviram (or the other way around – whichever of the two was each one). So, you mean to tell me that the Zionists who have wreaked such havoc on Jews for over a century are not to be called “rasha”?

63. Con:
    The question of joining WZO for the greatest of spiritual reasons (ie saving a 3rd of the worlds yeshivos from closing down) was already paskaned by the gedolei hadoros for the past 100 years from the Chofetz Chaim ( who said it would be prohibited even if as a result of not voting a 3rd of the worlds yeshivos would have to close) through rav elyashiv who just 2 elections ago (well after the sevara of fighting the reform came to be) said the prohibition of all the gedolei hadoros since the Chofetz Chaim still stands
    Pro:
    In the present situation the gedolei hadoros would have permitted it because we have to fight the reform and reduce the amount of support they receive from WZO
    Problem:
    What did they accomplish against the reform
    On their website they calculate money they received from WZO for their interests and it comes out to 5 million during this Congress
    And 5 million during the previous Congress
    So no gains and definitely nothing compared to the gain of saving a 3 rd of the worlds yeshivos which is the scenario where the Chofetz Chaim said it would still be assur to vote
    This is one of the reasons why the gedolei hador led by rav dov landau said (see video of him just released) that rav Chaim never would permit it and then question was misrepresented to him

64. Mr phoni you are so smart you don’t have to ask any chochom anything because g-d gave each person their own seichel. so when do you ever ask a sheila
    You are one of many unfortunately who believe there is no such thing as daas Torah. do you know what the chazon ish writes about such a belief, or you don’t care because you were granted seichel just like he was.

65. I note that theImmatureOne (see? Two can play this game – and I just need to use a translation of your handle) continues to speak in absolutes as if his favored views are the only legitimate ones – and as if certain leaders are only to be followed when their views on a given subject allign with his.

    Now, how about letting these leaders speak for themselves? They don’t need an immature keyboard warrior with multiple screen names and too much time on his hands to speak for them.

    an Israeli Yid

66. Other than Jpa, Big Bob, & Rocky, you are falling for a spoof.

    This letter is not authentic.

    1. Agudah posts to their own website. Nothing there.

    2. When the Moetzes puts out a statement it is eloquently written with novel content. Not the tired stuff hanging on your shul bulletin for the past few months.

    3. For those that are adherents to the mission of Agudas Yisrael (Hint: Agudas & Yisrael) this letter is out of line with the spirit of all known authentic letters.

    4. The passion about a perceived major issue is nice to see, but the leaders on the Moetzes are more delicate than this attempt.

    5. If you think the public rah-rah is bad, try to imagine what it is like for a Gadol to try to avoid these passionate individuals (from both sides.

67. Well whoever thinks the letter is fake from Moetzes, it’s in the Jewish newspapers this week the same exact print. I think it’s time to admit that it’s not fake

68. Dear RebEmes,

    Wait and see.

69. Though I will check if it printed with the Agudah Letterhead.

70. The comments on this post are extremely disturbing. People don’t seem to understand the concept of daas Torah. Newsflash: when the Gedolim say something, your opinion is now the opinion of a NOBODY. You don’t get to disparage Gedolim just because your puny brain disagrees. If your Rav disagrees however that’s another story.

71. Aruch Hashulchan: It is true that when there is a consensus among ALL Gedolim, you would have a point. However, there are many other Gedolim who have offered an opinion on this other than those who voted on the issue in the Moetzes of America. Rav Chaim zt”L was certainly a Gadol as are many other Gedolim who differ with Rav Feldman and Rav Kotler. We don’t know if Rav Shmuel changed his mind and didn’t want to fight anymore with the younger Roshei Yeshiva or if he was not well enough to participate in the vote. All we do know is that there are valid, strong voices on both sides of the aisle.

    I do believe that the letter is legit; I just don’t know how many members of the Moetzes are in on this and who was left out.

72. @Rocky, you seem to have missed the boat. Just because other Gedolim may have argued, that still doesn’t doesn’t give your own opinion any weight (even if the outcome of your own opinion coincides with the outcome of the opinion of the Gedolim who argue).

    As the person you’re addressing wrote “If your Rav disagrees however that’s another story” (and that itself is quite broad, as not every “Rav” is of the caliber of disagreeing)