Some of Montreal’s Orthodox and Chasidic schools say much of the province’s new compulsory ethics and religious culture course (ERC) is “irreconcilable with our convictions.” They are seeking to work with the Quebec education ministry to find a way to abide by the law, said Rabbi Yochanan Kuhnreich, principal of Bais Yaakov School, which has about 500 female elementary and high school students, without going against their beliefs.
“A large and important part of the course, which deals with ethics and values, was already being taught in our school,” he said. “But there are serious challenges posed by the other aspects that are not reconcilable with our convictions.” He declined to spell out what those aspects are, but the part of the course dealing with religious culture aims to give students an understanding of the religions considered to be part of Quebec’s heritage – Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and aboriginal beliefs – as well as an overview of the other major world religions and secularism.
The government’s goal is to promote tolerance and a sense of commonality, and schools have been given the task of teaching about religion while avoiding religious teaching. The course must be taken by all students in every school that receives government funding, throughout elementary and high school. The government has said no exceptions will be made. It replaces the moral and religious education course, which offered the choice of a Catholic, Protestant or neutral orientation.
Orthodox schools such as Bais Yaakov have been reticent about the course until now. Rabbi Mendel Marasow, principal of Bais Rivkah Academy, which is under Lubavitch auspices, who has expressed doubts in the past about the possibility of the ERC being fully implemented in his school, referred questions last week to Rabbi Kuhnreich, who himself was guarded in his responses. Privately, Chasidic leaders have indicated they would consider leaving Quebec if forced to teach religious material they consider inappropriate for their children.
The position of the Association of Jewish Day Schools (AJDS) is that the course is law, and it’s basically leaving it up to its members to come to terms with it as best they can. The AJDS represents 15 school corporations, comprising 23 campuses, including the larger Chasidic schools, such as those of the Skver and Belz communities.
A number of Chasidic schools are not affiliated with the AJDS, including a few that are already under the scrutiny of the education ministry for not teaching the existing required curriculum. “The course is compulsory. There is no choice,” said AJDS executive director Charley Levy. “The minister has made it clear there are no derogations.” On the other hand, he said, “It’s very obvious that for certain schools the ERC is against their confessional project.”
(LINK to Canadian Jewish News)
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32 Responses
This is why getting government money isn’t such a good thing. To use the goyim’s phrase, “He who pays the fiddler, gets to call the tune”.
Canada is a dictatorship. What do they expect?
Flatbusher, first of all learning about avoda zarah is itself forbidden. Second, the course undoubtedly requires the teacher to refer to all these beliefs with respect, and not to put them in a bad light, let alone to poke fun at them or poke holes in them. We are commanded to despise avodah zarah and to make fun of it, and it is forbidden to paint it in a positive light, as if there might be some truth to it, chas veshalom.
(By the way, in Singapore they have an even bigger problem, because there’s an official government program to encourage people to visit other people’s houses of religion; it’s all very well to have thousands of people visiting the shuls, but unfortunately the Jews are expected to visit mosques, churches, and the temples of the various avodos zaros, and it’s difficult to avoid without running afoul of the authorities. They mean well, all they want is to promote harmony, but fundamentally that is the problem, because the Torah doesn’t believe in harmony with avoda zara.)
Onemandband613, Canada is a dictatorship?! Seems to me we are in the midst of an election right now just as you Americans are.
Perhaps we are more regulated by government up here, but consider this. Thanks to our regulations we do not have to worry about our govenment pouring billions of dollars into bailing out large investment banks and mortgage lenders. Our banks did not give loans to people who had no business getting a loan and as a result lives are not being ruined the way they are in your unregulated USA.
To teach the goyim understanding of Jews will reduce anti-semitism. Jews must also learn to tolerate those that are different without having to learn details of other religions. The people you live with must get along with you.
#2 — Canada is hardly a dictatorship, and in many ways is more friendly to Jews than the US (it does subsidize schools, unlike the US, which leads to the problem that the funding agency tends to dictate curriculum).
#4 – One could come up with a “frum” course on comparative religion, focusing on the social and political aspects, which in many ways are more important from the perspective of facilitating working with goyim (it isn’t important what myths and theology they believe in, as much as their views towards children, gays, families and remembering not to offer Hindus beef, and not to offer caffeine to a Mormon, etc.). The problem is that the issue in the article is a government agency requiring its own program as a a condition of funding.
We need Rabbi A back!
To Milhouse,
Not only are you a discrimination lawyer, now you are a Poisek. Who says you can’t talk about avodah zarah. The gemorrah talks about it all the time, but just says you can’t do it. It goes into many details how they worship it. For a Goy the Remah holds Chri*tianity isn’t Avodah Zorah. I see nothing wrong with giving a course that describes their religion as long as it isn’t presented as another choice. Also, I don’t think there is anything wrong to go into their House of Worships, if you are just going for a tour.
What better place is there for a Yiddele to be “taught” multi-culturalism than in his Yeshiva by rabbanim? I say go for it – besides, dinah d’malchusa dinah . . . if you really gon’t want to follow the rules, then opt out of government funding.
to #9
“Acharei levavchem: zu minus. Acaharei eineichem: zu sifrei minus
Also, read what R’ Elchnon writes in kovetz mamorim about “Da ma l’hoshiv”.
The Rambam holds that religion is Avoda Zora, so I do not see the purpose of getting involved in a serious shaila for the purpose of an “educational” tour. And Milhouse mentioned that in Singapore they are compelled to visit other temples which most definitely have Avoda Zora.
Milhouse also brought up some very good points (which you did not refute) about how we are mechuyav to ridicule avoda zora and apikorsus.
Health 10$3 “Also, I don’t think there is anything wrong to go into their House of Worships, if you are just going for a tour.” Now you are the “Poisek” you accuse Milhouse of being.
AJDS executive director Charley Levy is a wuss with that answer. The people should fight so that they dont have to talk about other religions in their schools. HATZLOCHA!!
Health, you may not “think there is anything wrong to go into their House of Worships, if you are just going for a tour, ” but no one asked you for what you think. IT IS ASSUR. Look it up if you dont beleive me or ask your local compitent orthodox rabbi who is a posek.
One more reason why I would not move to Canada. It shows an extreme anti-religious bias. (That is for any other religion – or all religions, depending on the material.)
One suggestion, which is not great obviously, would be to present this material as “The Canadian government’s religon”, not as a regular course. Then a ben torah must proceed to teach what the Torah says about all these things, and refute the shkorim. This is a very bedievedke approach, but the situation may be bedieved r”l.
Otherwise, there is what the Volohziner did.
#6,
Halacha hi beyaduah sheisav soneh es yaakov.
Hard to ever change that.
14 – If it shows an extreme anti-religious bias, they wouldn’t make them rteach these “religious” courses in the first place!
I don’t really see the big deal in teaching this course. The course material would be mandated by the government, but the way the course is taught would be by the Jewish teachers.
You can teach about the religion and still maintain “this is against Judaism, we are just teaching it because we are required to.” You can also use this as an opportunity to show kids why other religions are wrong.
There is nothing wrong with dialogue when done the correct way.
#9 Health
You are advised to retain some of your intellectual dignity rather than making wild statements to demonstrate your extreme ignorance. It would have been wiser of you to approach a subject about which your knowledge is limited with a degree of humility.
I’m not clear if you have learn’t Avodah Zarah or not, but there is clearly plenty you either omitted or forgotten. In one paragraph you manage to contradict to explicit Halochos in Shulchon Oruch. And go back and learn the Remoh again (if you ever read it in the first place), and see the context and what he is referring to. You’ll quickly realize your statement was badly misplaced. I am surprised that with your lack of even a perfunctionary knowledge on modern Christian theology and doctrine, and proper child education experience, you are able to assert with such confidence your sagacious opinion.
It would be tragic if other less knowledgeable readers took your word as authoratative on this matter. Next time you consider commenting on a subject where you lack the background, please stay out.
#17, Yes, Judaism is the only religion with Emes. Everything else is avoida zora and pure sheker.
Since the article does not say what the teachings are that conflict with yeshiva values, I am only guess that maybe they can teach that course with the footnote that certain things are not the Jewish way, like that which is done when learning the ways of the nations in chumash classes.
Joseph (#20) says “Judaism is the only religion with Emes. Everything else is avoida zora and pure sheker.”
The Rambam disagrees with Joseph. According to the Rambam, Islam is not avoda zara. I’m not sure if anyone disagrees with the Rambam (other than Joseph that is).
dd, Rambam is talking about for a gentile. For a Jew Islam is avoida zora. If Chas Vshalom a Yid converts to Islam, he is a baal avoida zora and his family sits shiva for him.
This topic is about a Yid C’V being taught Islam.
In fact, Rambam completely forbids Islam under Judaic rule (Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 8:11)
Context, context.
First,If they are going to take public funds,they should hve anticipated that the government wants them to teach tolerance (the kind of tolerance that allows one to live with one’s non jewish neioghbor in peace, not the kindof tolerance that insists on participation in his religious observances.
Second, The government of Quebec has been going through a year long series of consultations with Quebecers of all backgrounds essentially asking them what “reasonable accomodation” should mean. The result of these consultations hasn’t been positive. Among Canadains in General, majority white catholic Quebecers are the most intolerant in the country f Jews, muslims and others. That being said, these same Quebecers insist on broad secular conformity, much like the “old county” french with their bans on yarmulkes, hijab, and Sikh turbans in their publically funded schools.
Third, If it is taught by competent frum teachers, and it is taught as “this is what it is, and this is how it violates Torah FOR YOU, I can’t see how it is different than learning the details of other issurim. The catch here is that part of the curriculum is davka not to ridicule it, and frankly, we can be confident in the abilities of our frum educators to clearly present Torah and yiddishkeit positively while giving cursory attention to what is ossur and why. SInce we live in golus but in a tolerant society, and we aren’t obliged, rather discouraged,from bringing non-Jews ito the fold, We have to learn to live with them, and when the ridicule some here seem to advocate comes in to conflict with Dino demalchuso dino, either keep it to yourself or pack your bags.
I have heard conflicting opinions about the “nature” of xtianity and Islam as avodah zorah or not. Could someone please bring mekoros, and if possible both strict and lenient modern interpretations, from competent sources?
Why “both strict and lenient modern interpretations”?
We don’t pick and choose. We go by psak din, not pick and choose from “both strict and lenient modern interpretations.”
I think that our Torah teachings should be strong enough to withstand exposure to other ideas. What are we afraid of? Are we afraid that even a small classroom exposure to another religion will drive our children away? If so, then these Rebbes must not be doing such a good job.
I don’t understand why some are blaming the entire country of Canada for the policies of Quebec.
To everyone out there. I hope I can give you a little insite about the problem Montreal schools are facing right now.
There is a law that every child in montreal must attend a recognized school whether funded by the goverment or private. Therefore it does not matter if you receive money from the goverment or not.
Why is it so terrible that they want us to teach
religion in our schools, it is not what we teach, because we are already are teaching our student about different religion in jewish history, (chumish, history, etc. ). Where is the problem,
the problem is that our students will be tested based on the minister of educations
understanding and therefore we will have to teach what they want us to learn, that is not acceptable because they will explain it in a way that is not for the jewish community.
I wrote an article in a Jewish newspaper on this topic which I’d like to sure with the readers.
Starting this school year in Quebec, in an attempt to promote tolerance, all Jewish schools will be required to teach the new curriculum of “Ethics and Religious Culture.” One of the chapters in the new book to be distributed to high school students blurs the lines between Judaism and Christianity. Published by Modulo Éditeur, schoolchildren discuss in French the holiday of Pâques (Easter). One child says that Pâques is the holiday of the resurrection of J. The second corrects his friend and says that Pâque is a Jewish holiday that commemorates the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt. (In French, the word for Easter (Pâques) and Passover (Pâque) is pronounced the same way) The book goes on to say that the moral of this is to teach us that there are different ways to celebrate or understand a holiday, Pâque(s) being an example.
In its attempt at rapprochement, it is wrong and disingenuous to show how Easter and Passover are basically one holiday, being observed in two different ways by Jews and Christians. In a historical anomaly, the French names of Easter and Passover are the same, but that is where the similarity ends. What’s to stop a young impressionable Jewish child from going to church to celebrate Easter if it’s just another way of observing Passover? We in the Jewish community must stand up for our cherished beliefs and tell the government that while their goals of promoting tolerance are admirable, the ends never justify the means, and a curriculum which attempts to merge Easter and Passover into one is unacceptable material for any Jewish day school.
As I was informed, the teachers must be government instructed (goyim) and not rebeiim, and therefore it will be impossible for frum schools to allow it. Let us daven this Rosh Hashana that the government not come down hard on the frum schools.
flatbushed, you are right. But look at all the kids who are “off the derech” and that is with us sheltering them from the goyish world. Can you imagine how many more would go off the derech if we taught them about the others?
Let’s re-establish the ghetto. Protect our children and let in-breeding takes its natural course.
flatbushed, despite the logic of your statement, maybe the following anecdote will convey the inherent dangers in exposure to avoda zarah.
There was a guy in a yeshiva who came to his rebbi and said he was having a real tough time with his emuna, lately, and was having heretical thoughts. Over the course of the conversation, it came out that he had been setting his watch based on the hourly bell-tolling of the local church. After he stopped doing that, his doubts went away.
I don’t think one should be so quick to want to learn about other faiths, and certainly not to expose impressionable children to it.
Joseph, Islam is definitely not avoda zara, even for a yid. Read Igeres Hashmad. But it’s definitely assur, and if we have the power we have to suppress it just like any other false religion. (See Hilchos Melochim). But Catholicism is definitely avoda zara lechol hade’os, and there’s not even a question about the aboriginal religions – nobody suggests that they are not avoda zara.
Flatbushed, there are not two opinions about this – it is definitely assur to learn the rituals of avoda zara, unless one has a need to know; school children have no such need. And it’s certainly assur to teach children to respect AZ. Shaketz teshaktzenu vesa’ev tesa’avenu ki cherem hu. Kol letzanusa asura, chutz mishel AZ. Minhag avoseinu is that when you pass a tum’ah you spit; you don’t need to do it openly so the goyim will see, but a discreet little shpay so YOU know that it’s an abomination, and so your children learn so.
As for the money, Jews pay taxes just like everyone else, so they’re entitled to the same funding; it’s rish’us for the government to withhold it.
To all those Poskim,
First let me tell you that I am not offended by your comments because when you went to yeshiva
you never learned Shulchan Aruch. They only teach gemmorah, mussar, and some mishnah brurah. Maybe one day Artscroll will have translated it all for you and you’ll be able to read it in English. The funniest comment is from (un)common sense; just because you obviously majored in English and have a wide vocabulary, this doesn’t make you a poisek. First of all, I said chri*tianity isn’t avodah zarah for them, this has nothing to do with us. The Shach says Simon 149 #8 that nowadays they aren’t oivdey kocovim. Look it up, show it to your rabbis who maybe aren’t such bekiem in Shulchan Aruch. It also says this in the Mechaber, end of Simon 148.
To Mark Levin,
I’ll take the Shulchan Aruch as my competent Local Orthodox Rabbi instead of you. Even if you don’t agree with the poskim before that I mentioned, to go into the house of worship is mutter. Simon 148 #9- “It’s assur to go into the house of their worship on their holiday & give them sholom.” Even without the poshut deeuk of on their holiday, it’s mutter to stam go in. Because the Shach says #7- the problem is using the word sholom because it’s Hashem’s name, but stam a bracha there is no problem. Acc. to you how could the Shach say no problem, how was he allowed to walk in -in the first place? I could probably go and on and tell you how you can talk about their religion and not be oiver anything, but I’m tired.
I think the problem is -our generation is so spoiled. We have been schnorring from gov. whether here or in Canada for so long that we think it koompt oonz (it’s coming to us). If we take, they are going to demand something in return sooner or later!