Kashrus Questions Posed to Rav Shlomo Miller in 2012 at an AKKO Kashrus Convention

Question 1: Dishwashers for Meat and Dairy Q: Many people are aware that Iggeros Moshe permits the use of one dishwasher for both meat and dairy (assuming separate racks are used for each), but what most people are not aware of is that one of those teshuvos was written in response to a question posed specifically for “Nursing Home X”! What is the reason for this heter? Why can one use one dishwasher for both meat and dairy?

A: Rav Moshe explained that his psak is based on the fact that the blios (absorbed tastes) are nat bar nat (twice removed taste) of hetairah (permissible substance), but the practical question is that very often — especially in a commercial dishwasher — there is residue of meat or dairy left on the filters, which would negate the possibility of relying on nat bar nat. Therefore, at “Nursing Home X” there is a kashering every time they switch between meat and milk (or vice versa), but the truth is that the main goal of that kashering is to ensure that there is no residue left anywhere in the dishwasher so that the principle of nat bar nat can apply. (Iggeros Moshe YD 2:29. Rav Miller explained that although the detergent would appear to be pagum (defective/spoiled) and could prevent blios from spreading, one must give careful consideration before assuming that all detergent actually has a foul-enough taste to qualify for this halacha.)

There is a halacha that one should not continually kasher a utensil back and forth between meat and milk because the person might forget the item’s status and mistakenly use it without kashering. In general, that type of concern is limited to cases where if the person would forget, the food would be assur b’dieved (prohibited after the fact). However, in our case, where even if the person did not kasher the dishwasher the food eaten on the dishes would be mutar b’dieved (permitted after the fact) (due to nat bar nat), one may l’chatchilah (initially) regularly kasher between meat and dairy.

Question 2: Temperature for Kashering Q: The dishwasher is heated to 185° F during kashering. Doesn’t hag’alah (kashering with boiling water) have to be at a higher temperature?

A: There is no need for hag’alah water reach 212° F, and in fact, at Toronto’s elevation water boils at lower than that temperature! (In addition, the barometric pressure — a value that changes from day to day — plays a role in determining the boiling point of water.) “Boiling” occurs when the water’s internal pressure equals the external pressure in the atmosphere, such that bubbles escape from the water. Boiling is also not necessary for hag’alah but rather the ikar hadin (basic law) requirement is that the water be ma’aleh resichah (bringing to a boil) which is defined as when the water becomes “agitated”. That typically occurs somewhere above 180° F, and for that reason “Nursing Home X” may kasher their dishwasher at 185° F.

L’chatchilah (initially), hag’alah should be performed when the water is at a traditional rolling boil, but in this case where there is a tzorech (need) and the kashering is only being performed between meat and milk, one may rely on the lower temperature of hag’alah.

Question 3: Steam System Concerns Q: There is just one boiler which provides all hot water and steam for the entire facility including the jacketed kettles on both the meat and dairy sides of the kitchen, and the direct-steam used to cook vegetables. Condensate is returned from all jacketed kettles to the boiler. Doesn’t this condensate serve as a medium for transferring meat ta’am (taste) to the dairy side and vice versa? Must the hashgachah insist that “Nursing Home X” spend $150,000 to purchase a second boiler?

A: It is generally assumed that steam has the status of a toldas ha’ur (derivative of fire) in the sense that although it is removed from its heat source (the fire) it is not considered iruy kli rishon (pouring from a primary vessel). Accordingly, if someone is cooking fish on the fire and meat splashes onto the outside of the pot, Chavas Da’as holds that the ta’am transfers directly from the meat into the fish such that this transfer is just one “nat”. Bais Ephraim argues that the transfer occurs in two steps — from the meat into the pot-wall, and from the pot-wall into the fish — and therefore the transfer is considered “two nats” (nat bar nat).

According to Bais Ephraim, one may surely use the same steam system for both meat and dairy because the transfer of ta’am from the meat kettle into the steam is already nat bar nat and when the ta’am transfers back into the dairy food that will be a third nat such that one may even be lenient and permit nat bar nat al yedei bishul (nat bar nat through cooking). Similarly, even according to Chavas Da’as the steam could be used to cook pareve food to be served at a dairy meal, because by the time the ta’am transfers into the dairy food it will have transferred three times (meat to water to dairy).

Accordingly, it would be better for there to be separate boilers for meat and dairy, but in this sha’as hadchak (pressing circumstances) one can rely on the aforementioned leniency and allow them to continue using just one. (It seems that a considerable amount of the facility’s condensate is generated by the very large kitchen. It was suggested that it may be worthwhile to calculate exactly how much steam is used for innocuous uses for it may turn out that the meat and/or dairy ta’am is batel b’shishim (nullified in sixty parts) in the “pareve” condensate.)

Question 4: Jewish Workers on Shabbos Q: Many of the “Nursing Home X” residents are cholim (sick people) and therefore certain kulos (leniencies) can be relied upon as relates to hilchos Shabbos. Many of those kulos are only permitted if the action is done by a non-Jew. If so, what should the COR do if a Jew applies for a job in the “Nursing Home X” kitchen?

A: In truth this is a serious issue but in practice the hashgachah has no control over who is hired. From the perspective of the residents, they may eat the food based on the assumption that the food they are eating was prepared by a non-Jew (since non-Jews comprise the majority of the workforce). (An additional factor is that Gra permits food cooked by a Jew on Shabbos b’shogeg (unknowingly), and the bulk of the Jews working on Shabbos nowadays qualify as shogegim (unknowing sinners) since they never knew better than to be mechallel Shabbos.)

Question 5: Pre-Shabbos Preparation Q: Should the hashgachah push/force the facility to do as much melacha (work) before Shabbos as possible, or might that cause them to not serve the patients properly?

A: In theory, all melacha which can possibly be performed before Shabbos should not be done on Shabbos, so as to minimize the chillul Shabbos wherever possible. However, in this situation it is possible that making such demands could lead them to walk away from hashgachah altogether, and therefore careful consideration and shikul hadas (weighing of the law) should be given before making any new demands. It is crucial that the people involved in the hashgachah work to create goodwill and work together with “Nursing Home X” as much as possible, so that in the long run the kosher community will gain as much as possible from the relationship.

Question 6: Cafeteria Open on Shabbos Q: At this time, the cafeteria is open to the public on Shabbos. No cooking is done on Shabbos but people can purchase cold sandwiches and similar items. What, if anything, should the COR do about this?

A: It is a chillul Hashem (desecration of God’s name) to give a hechsher on food sold in this manner on Shabbos, and maybe this could be minimized by putting up a sign which states that the COR’s hashgachah is limited to food prepared during the weekdays (or something similar). A side benefit of such a sign is that it might discourage people from buying food on Shabbos.

Question 7: Non-Kosher Catering Q: The historical approach has always been that the entire “Nursing Home X” is certified as kosher, and no non-kosher food is allowed in under any circumstances. There has been significant pushback from the fundraising arm of the foundation (and others) to allow non-kosher catering in the conference rooms. Should we allow this?

A: It is worthwhile to maintain the “kedushas hamakom” (sanctity of the place) and pretend to not notice the occasional exception. The pirtzah (breach) of formally allowing non-kosher food into the building could potentially lead to even more serious issues in the future, and should be avoided.

Question 8: Different Levels of Illness Q: Must the staff be taught to differentiate between different levels of choleh (yesh bo sakanah – life threatening illness, ein bo sakanah – non-life threatening illness, michush – minor ailment) and allow or disallow melachos based on that?

A: This is not required because the vast majority of residents are at least in the category of a choleh she’ein bo sakanah (non-life threatening illness) for whom a non-Jew is permitted to perform melacha on Shabbos (and for whom bishul akum is permitted on Shabbos).

Question 9: Chametz and Tevilas Keilim Q: “Nursing Home X” was founded by Jews and just about all of the current “decision makers” are Jewish. It is a non-profit where most of the funding comes from government sources, but a sizeable amount of collected from the community by a foundation. Do they have to sell their chametz for Pesach? Do they have to be toveil their dishes?

A: The government has the right to take control of any non-profit which is not performing up to par, and therefore there is some reason to suggest that the Jews are no longer the “owners” of “Nursing Home X” and rather just serve as a sort of management company for the government’s nursing home. Due to the difficulty in performing tevilas keilim (immersion of vessels) on all of their dishes, it would seem that one could be lenient based on the aforementioned sevara (logical argument) as relates to:

• Items used only for the preparation of food (e.g. pots) – Food cooked in pots and/or with utensils that did not undergo tevillah, remains kosher such that the question of whether tevillah is required on pots does not directly impact the residents.
• Glass and china – The mitzvah d’oraisah (biblical commandment) of tevilas keilim is limited to metal utensils and therefore one may be more lenient as relates to the mitzvah d’rabannan (rabbinical commandment) to also toveil glass (and china).

However, it would be appropriate for the facility to toveil all of their flatware since those items are used by residents, there is a d’oraisah requirement that they undergo tevillah, and it is also not nearly as complicated and difficult to toveil them as is it to toveil the large dishes and utensils.

The halacha is more strict as relates to mechiras chametz (selling of leavened products), because not only must one sell chametz which they own (or have achrayus – responsibility for), but they must also get rid of chametz which they have the right to use (matzui etzlam – available to them). Accordingly, since “Nursing Home X” is controlled by Jewish people they should perform mechiras chametz before Pesach.

“Nursing Home X” does not currently do any baking of breads, cakes or other items that require hafrashas challah (separation of dough portion). If they (or another similar facility) would bake with the five primary grains, they would be required to be mafrish challah (separate challah), and further study would be required to determine if that hafrashah should be done with a bracha (blessing).

Question 10: Medicine – Less than a Shiur Q: In most cases a person uses less than a “shiur” (minimum amount) of liquid medicine. Although the general rule is that chatzi shiur asur min haTorah (half the minimum amount is biblically forbidden), are there still some possible reasons to be lenient?

A: There are some possible reasons to be lenient:

• There are those who say that chatzi shiur asur min haTorah only applies to foods which are forbidden based on a lav (negative commandment) but if they are a mere “issur b’alma” (general prohibition) then there is nothing wrong with eating a chatzi shiur of that food.
• Achiezer considers that the issur to feed non-kosher food to a child (lo ta’achilum – do not feed them) may not apply to a chatzi shiur.

Based on these reasons one can be melamed zechus (judge favorably) on those who give their children a teaspoon (i.e. less than a shiur) of liquid medicine that contains glycerin when there is no kosher alternative available.

Question 11: Tablets Q: What is the status of tablets?

A: Tablets are primarily made of starch and other food items with a small amount of bad-tasting medicine mixed in, and therefore the pill qualifies as something which is shelo k’derech achilah (not the normal way of eating), which is permitted for a choleh if there are no substitutes.

Although there are stearates on the outside of the pill (and those stearates might not be kosher), since the stearates cannot be separated from the rest of the pill they are considered to be “mixed in” with the pill. When viewed this way, the stearates are batel b’shishim and therefore do not pose a concern.

Question 12: Cough Medicine Q: What about cough medicine?

A: Cough medicine typically contains glycerin which — if it is made from neveilah (improperly slaughtered animal) or chazir (pig) — is an issur lav (prohibition from a negative commandment). Accordingly, the only possible heter to take cough medicine which is safek issur (doubtfully forbidden) is if it is given to a child. However, Rav Aharon Kotler said that there is no heter for an adult to consume cough medicine if it contains glycerin (and does not have hashgachah).

The ikar hadin (basic law) is that since the glycerin is usually not more than 20% of the medicine, one can be mevatel (nullify) the medicine in 12 times its volume such that the glycerin is batel b’shishim. This assumes one is not concerned with ChaNaN (the principle that forbidden items that enhance taste cannot be nullified) in this case. It would be better to be concerned for ChaNaN and be mevatel the entire volume of the medicine.

Question 13: Chewables Q: What about chewables?

A: Pills which are chewed are considered k’derech achilah (normal way of eating) and therefore if there are (possible) non-kosher ingredients in them an adult would be forbidden from taking them. Since a chewable pill is smaller than a kezayis (olive-size), an adult could give one to a child.

Question 14: Gelcaps Q: What about gelcaps?

A: Previously, we noted that hard gelatin capsules are shelo k’derech achilah because people would not eat them in their current, plasticized state, and therefore they are permitted for cholim. In contrast, softgels are somewhat worse due to their being in a more-edible form, and therefore even cholim should avoid them. The only way they can be consumed is if one wraps the softgel in a paper, kosher capsule, or some other non-food item before swallowing the softgel.

Question 15: Vitamins Q: What about vitamins?

A: If a person takes a vitamin tablet as part of their daily nutrition, then they should use kosher vitamins because in this case the vitamin is a “food replacer” such that they are considered “food” even if tablets would otherwise be considered shelo k’derech achilah. On the other hand, if the person takes therapeutic doses of vitamins as a form of refuah (healing), then the person may take them in tablet form regardless of whether the ingredients are kosher.

Question 16: Toothpaste and Mouthwash Q: What about toothpaste and mouthwash?