Dear YWN
Firstly, may I thank you and the contributors to this site for the tremendous service it offers to the charedi public.
I would like to address a topic which is a theme running through the charedi world – most notably in chutz laaretz – and that is our spending culture.
Whether it is chasunehs, sheitels, seminaries, cars, houses, vacations, camps, bungalows, hotels for yom tov or any other craze or fad which may tickle our fancy we have all gone way over the top.
Many of the readers often cry out why don’t the Rabbonim shlita speak out against our excessive expenditure? Well I believe that rather than putting the blame on other people it is up to us – all of us the regular Joe Bloggs and Moshe Chaim’s of this world to put our foot down and use some mesirus nefesh.
Most of my grand parents barely had a shabbos outfit let alone a wedding gown at their chasunah – they cooked for their own seudos, and were prepared to live without so many necessities just to live as poshute yidden. We are the opposite, we buy things we don’t need with money we can not afford to keep up with neighbours we don’t even like.
If each of us individually say to ourselves, our spouses & children and anyone else who would care to listen, that we have to decided to live within our means and only acquire the possessions we actually require rather than the junk the commercials insist we need we would benefit ourselves and the entire community. Before we purchase a new car or send out invitations to our kids chasuna – stop and think – what trend are we setting, are we spending this money because that is what is needed, or merely because that’s what everyone else does.
Let us start the trend now – don’t insist that our Rabbonim stand up and make takonos, lets all do our bit, bit by bit we can cause a revolution. Be proud to tell your kids – “no we don’t need another outfit for Shabbos – it is not necessary” – teach them a bit of mesirus nefesh – teach them what real riches are.
Ki lo bemoso yikach hakol lo yelach acharov kevodo.
Lets do this person by person, family by family, community by community – we do not need big adverts and loud noises – lets do this in the way that klal yisroel knows best – quietly and with a little mesirus nefesh.
Chaim B’Osher.
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35 Responses
In America, the goyim live beyond their means (look at the high amount of consumer debt relative to income, and the historic decline in the value of the currency of the last 50 years), and we imitate them without fully realizing it. In part, this is the traditional American optimism that tomorrow will always be better (and compared to the period 1930-1945, it wasn’t hard for the world to get better, though this “base” for rising expectations isn’t lasting). For frum Jews, it is perhaps a desire to justify being a “Baal ha-Bayis” in golus rather than a full-time “Ben Torah” in Eretz Yisrael (as in “I would live in Israel, but there is no parnassah there” or “I could never live like that…”)- so we feel a need to prove our prosperity, which we gave up learning Torah full time for, by living well. Perhaps the only exception are Baalei Tsuvah (meaning those raised secular who became frum as adults) who were mesiras nefesh economically in becoming frum.
You are 100% right, people should live lives that are less gashmiyusdik and more ruchniusdik. But you must also put yourself into the shoes of someone that has the money to spend. Chazal tell us that the nisoyon of the rich person is greater than the nisoyon of the poor person. It is a nisoyon. think about your nisyonos – can you say that you pass them with flying colors? Let us all work on our own nisyonos and stop pointing fingers!! May all of klal yisroel have a ksiva vachasima tovah.
A beautiful letter — very appropriate as we enter Chodesh Eleul and we “account” for ourselves.
I take issue with one point — the writer takes issue with a ” theme running through the charedi world – most notably in chutz laaretz”.
I think this is mistaken, certainly in regard to Americans living in Eretz Yisrael, who seem to be “able to afford” lavish apartments, furniture and food while learning full time.
We all need to take a look at “what we want” vs. “What we need”.
Yasher Koach!
Honey,
The Rabbanim did make a takanah regarding chasunahs and to many people said, aha, I got the Rabbanim. You see, they made exceptions for themselves and gevirim!
Well so what. They had the regular joe blogger and moshe chaim in mind! They did it letovas haklal and to help stem the tide of chasunah prices spiraling out of control. If everyone listened and didn’t look at yenem we would all grow.
I guess it was a gezairah sheain rov hatzibur yecholin laamod bo. You know why? Because WE are not a TZIBUR! The rabbanim and roshei hayeshivos are still great. It is us that need to grow.
Need proof? Look at the Gerrer Rebbe. When he makes a takanah it is law. Period. So to in many chassidusin.
May we all have the koach to listen to daas torah and have a rav active in our lives.
If I’m not mistaken, Square came out with strict wedding takanas, (including jewlery, music, flowers….)so the baalei simcha will not have such agmas nefesh marrying off their children.
i think this writer is 100% on the mark especially here in the USA (as opposed to europe)we are used to (OVER)spending more then we have for things we dont really need
even where one has the extra money dosn’t necessarily mean you have to spend and flaunt it
after all we are in golus and it would do us all a favor by keeping a lower profile not to antaganize others by flaunting our wealth
I agree with this letter 100%. I don’t see anywhere that the letter writer is “pointing fingers” at anyone. It is so true. Luxuries are becoming necessities. Poor people don’t live poor. They think that they can have what the rich have.
I like the point about not asking for takanos. I think it has been proven from previous experiences that they just don’t work.
It is true that the Israelis are much more willing to forgo luxuries. Hand any Israeli kid a cup of soda here (in E”Y) and they will be thrilled while an American child needs MUCH more to be happy (if that’s possible.) I see my husbands’ Israeli teenage cousins very often on Shabbos and they each always wear the same Shabbos outfit than the time before (Then the next year they are each wearing their older sister’s outfit from the year before and the two oldest who are staying the same size I think switch with eachother!) And they are SUCH happy and really good children! I saw an older cousin of his who already has older kids and she suddenly came with a bunch of new silver jewelry. I was wondering why she bought herself a new necklace bracelet, etc… It turned out that she sold all her gold jewelry and bought silver!
The point #3 made might be true to an extent but as an American living here in Eretz Yisroel for over a year, I think it is false for most people. I live in a tiny apartment on the fifth floor and work full time very inconvenient hours and I know many people living on such standards as well. The only thing I don’t understand about most american young couples is that they don’t work at all which means that their parents are supporting them FULLY!!!
One more thing. My husband said he looked in a sefer and found that it is preferable to borrow money to have nice things for shabbos. What does that refer to? Do I need to buy expensive drinks for shabbos when I am struggling as it is? I am uncomfortable about that (and that is without borrowing money!)
I think the writer made an excellent point.
However, as we often find in the Torah, a person is very much influenced by his environment. So, in an environment that “pushes” this kind of lifestyle, it takes a conscious effort (and perhaps even relocating) to be able to objectively determine what you want and/or need, vs. what you don’t even care for but are only buying because of someone else.
If a person ever feels pressured to spend money that they don’t want to spend, I think it would be wise to think, “Do I, personally, want/need this, or am I spending this money because society or someone else has a mishugaas to spend money on this particular item/service/etc.”?
For example, and this is a relatively small one, is everyone required to spend $400-$500 on a double stroller, or are there reasonable alternatives for well under half that amount? (Yes, there are.) Weddings, Vorts and such are trickier topics because they affect someone else, too, but I think just about anything is open to these evaluations, although consulting a Rebbi or Rav is probably a very good idea if it impacts a person’s ruchnius and/or Bein Adam LaChaveiro.
Kisiva VaChasima Tovah to Acheinu Binei Yisrael.
i think the single most important thing one can do to stem the tide is not to pull back on what we take for granted as it is unlikely to meet with much success unless of course financial considerations force it to the individual. what must be done is for everyone to take responsibility for the klal that when you are purchasing something to ask yourself: is this thing that i am about to buy or aquire–will it raise the standard for others to follow or does it maintain what is already there. more likely than not most people dont take into account how their actions effect the way others perceive as necessary or standard. well we are a tight knit community and it does have an effect. dont be the one that is responsible for everyone needing to do/have what is considered a luxury. trendsetters need to be much more alert to this issue that the average joe. aside from this point you are then much more likely not to be harmed by ayin horoh which the gemorroh says is the #1 killer.
I agree about living beyond one’s means. However, I have that problem because my tuition bills, even with breaks, is over 40% of my Gross income.
Here’s an interesting point to ponder. Much discussion has been raised about the extravagant way we are making weddings. With all that is DEMANDED and EXPECTED of parents of the young couple, we are literally putting people in debt for many years to come. And unfortunately putting people into hospitals too due to the stress. I have another angle on this. It’s the night of the Grand Event Wedding & you’ve spent all that money that you did not have in the first place, you’ve invited everyone you’ve ever said hello to on the street and……you look around at the dinner and NO ONE is there! Has anyone looked around at a wedding in Lakewood? People come and go just as at a Shalom Zachor! Every table is more than half empty! People show up for the Chuppah & leave or they show up late for a few minutes! Of course this is after answering that you will be attending. Do you have any idea how much of the food is not used? We are spending all this money & really, no one needs it. No one is interested. Maybe it is time to roll out a buffet for the dinner & whoever comes, takes something to eat & sits down. What do u think?
Of course the writer is correct. The problem is, who will agree with him?– Only those of us that are having a hard time with finances! WE can complain forever and it wont make any difference whatsoever! To solve this problem is in the hands of the gvirim of our communities. If THEY would realize that the way things are is wrong, if THEY would realize that HaSh-m did not bless them with more money than they need to live so they would be able to make excessively extravagant simchas, drive outrageously expensive automobiles, etc., -if THEY, as a GROUP would take the lead in leading a more modest life style (tzniyus is more than just long skirts and high necklines for our wives), then others would not be pressured to do WAY more than they can afford, AND the gvirim would be able (in addition to the large amounts of Tzedaka they may be giving already) to give even MORE to the many in our own communities that are struggling terribly to pay for rent, utilities, tuitions, and the many other expensives that keep B’nai Torah from being able to sleep at night. Are there any wealthy balabatim out there willing to be the ones to start such a huge and important chesed project?
i think the base for following the excellent advice above is a strong family, and a strong relationship with your children. “Buying” & “giving” too often take the place of real love and communication. scaling back can be done if hand-in-hand with sensitivity (children feel very strong peer pressure) and caring. tell over stories of grandparents’ struggles, or stories from books. show the beauty and joy in what we have, not what we don’t. besides making things easier for yourselves and klal yisroel, it will stand the kids in good stead in their futures.
hatzlacha raba!
I do not agree with those that claim that it is solely in the “Gvirim”‘s hands. It is true that even “Gvirim” need to limit their luxuries but the fact that the “haves” have luxuries does not give the “have-nots” the right to live above their means. Let us stick to the topic. The writer is discussing a problem that people who do NOT have money are going above their means. This is not a matter of flaunting your wealth but of being in denial that you DON’T HAVE wealth. I am not minimizing the fact that people do flaunt but that is not the issue at hand.
Of course the writer is 100% on target, and I believe that MOST readers will agree with him. The question is, WHO will have the backbone to go against the flow, and do different than the norm??
We all complain about how things have gotten out of hand…whether its Seminary, Shaitels, etc…but then we aren’t strong enough to stand up against it! People say, well, if I had another 100 people doing it with me…
Guess what, guys, a group of 100 is made up of 100 INDIVIDUALS. In order to be able to accomplish anything, we have to be willing to “stick out” a little bit.
And don’t blame it on the gevirim. Let them spend their money; at least they have it. The rest of us just need to be realistic with ourselves and not try to be something we are not. When I was a kid, and I would ask for something that my parents couldn’t afford, my father would answer me, “Well, I’m not ______ (local gevir)!” Be honest with yourself- if everyone already knows you’re not a gvir, then why do you have to keep living as if you are one??
12, about all those empty seats: some caterers have packages that make it cheaper for the baal simcha to order say 300 meals, when they only need 250. (In defense of at least one caterer who offers a package, he does work with smaller simchas too.)
13, maybe it’s because I live out of town but I know many women of means who dress well yet very unostentatiously, whose home exteriors mirror this. (Don’t know about all the interiors but I do know gevirim with much nicer houses than I’ll ever own yet still very tasteful and understated considering their means.) So kudos to these generous people and may Hashem bless them with continued means, good health, and long life and nachas.
1.so if someone is giving 70% to tzeddaka can he make an extravagant affair?
2.if he needs to impress to get clients,can he do that?
3.i have differed with my wife on getting an expensiv car,precisely for meeting people,its ridiculous but it works,however,my wife says if you do so,keep the car in a different neighborhood,if you live with bnei torah,many whom are poor,you live simply.i cant say i regret it.but i cant complain about a certain gvir who gave huge tzeddaka and drove a rolls royce.when doing investment banking or real estate deals people judge you by your car,clothes,house etc.and i assume by your chasunah,so while i am all on board,my business involvement isnt do or die with luxury,some people are interwined
i think if takkanos can be made and signed by people before they make simchas,there is a chance.i know many in lakewood who make a much smaller vort than their poor counterparts here in israel.boruch hashem in my neighborhood every week we now have people whose bar mitzvah consists of a kiddush that is done very economicaly.
This is a great article if only people would listen to the Tekanus. It’s all made for you and me.
Living “big” has made our children weaker. I am now entering the world of shidduchim and I am noticing how the young couples really “like nice things”. Second hand furniture is not the norm, even when this young couple aspire to be in learning long term. I am also amazed at how people apologize to me when they suggest a boy to me who has plans or an idea of how they’ll eventually earn parnassah. I tell them “plans are great” and they tell me lots of girls don’t want to hear about plans. My daughter is real – a wonderful BY girl with a good brain and rachmonis on her father. Where are these young couples going to find money to keep going? I know too many young men (tattys of 3 and 4) “looking for something”. We really should train our kids to do with a lot less if we are encouraging them to live a kollel life.
Chasunas need a major overhaul (and please dont mention the recent takanos by Agudah or by chasidim, they are good models but dont work for everyone.)
A typical senario in most frum households where the parents are invited to a chasuna on a weeknite, the parents have homework, suppertime, bedtime, chavrusas, shiurim and other nightly responsibilities. WHO HAS TIME TO SPEND 3 HOURS AT A CHASUNA??? Unless you’re a close relative (I say and mean close because there are plenty of people with many relatives that are not close enough to warrant a 3 hour waste of time and expense) or very close friend you should only be going to say Mazel Tov and be misameach for 20 min-1/2 hr. If thats the case why should the Baal Simcha pay $75+ to feed the couple???? People must have the sense to answer they will come to say Mazel Tov but do not prepare a place. Even more so the return card should have a third choice “will attend to be misameach but please dont prepare a place”!!!!! And people should not be insulted but rather thankful when invited only to “simchas choson V’kalla. So with the above in mind you kill 2 birds with one stone, #1 you buy yourself extra family time #2 you save the baal simcha money.
ALL YIDDEN WHO WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM SHOULD STRONGLY CONSIDER THESE OTIONS WHEN RECEIVING AN INVITATION TO A WEDDING
I was wondering why all children age 5 and up need brand new schol shoes for the first day of school. If we buy sneakers for the summer, why can’t kids wear them until say Nov. until they are no longer good, and then we can buy a winter shoe. In 85 degree weather do the kids really need these expensive leather shoes. If we would push off buying these shoes until Nov, these 85 dollar shoes may actually last until the spring when we can go buy the 35 dollar sneaker. The way we do it, I always need to buy a second pair of shoes by Feb-march.
But this is just an example of how we all live above our means. We all have a ridiculous standard of the way things have to be that we all placed on ourselves. I’m not talking about extravagant, just silly wastes of money.
My sister recently made a simcha and decided that due to the economic situation she was going to do things on a much lower scale than she had done her previous simchos. She just didnt have the means to do things the same way as the other times. So in big capital letters she declared to the whole family how she just cant afford this simcha and is just downsizing bigtime. Well, downsize she did…..on her pocket only!!! She just had all the rest of the family do everything that she should have done. So instead of having the shabbos seudas catered, or even cooking it herself, she called up the family (2 siblings,) and split the meals between us to cook. She then went and invited her husbands family to the meals but felt she couldnt ask them to help with the preparations. yes, we love helping each other out. but noone has things easy financialy. and we are all really thrilled for her that she managed to downsize her simcha and didnt spend abvove her budget, but it was on OUR cheshbon instead of hers. So dont downsize on yenems cheshbon. keep in mind that a simcha is still a simcha. and for that chosson and kallah or for that bar mitzvah boy, this is their one and only simcha that they have looked forward to. Any exxageration of a situation is no good either.
This is so true.
People should live within their means – if you cant afford it, then it wasn’t meant for you (myself) to have.
As the writer puts it so well – “we buy things we don’t need, with money we can not afford, to keep up with the neighbors we don’t even like!”
As for gevirim – I think most are doing the same too, but we can not blame them – it is our own fault if we try to keep up with them, not theirs.
As for the young marrieds expecting everything given to them – they learnt that from the home they came from. If we all learn to have a little more bitochon & be happy with what we have, life would be much easier. (Although easier said than done!)
#16, Who will have the backbone to go against the flow? People with self confidence who don’t need “things” to make you somebody. People without self confidence just follow the law of “monkey see, monkey do”!
NONONONONO!!!
We are all living in our means!
We are being taxed out of our living!
ALl these jews here in this forum, for some reason or another feel the need to be registered democrats, whether in ny , or nj. IDIOTS, all of you! the dems have done nothing for jews. Well, you may say look at all the funding. well i say your an idiot, because that funding comes from YOU! the government doesnt have money of its own, it steals it from you, and then gives it back to you, and says here, see, arent we great. SAY NO! reregister republican, and send a message to albany and trenton, that we wont stand for this garbage any longer! we wont let a third of OUR paychecks pay for abortions. we wont let OUR money go to teach about activities considered to be an abomination to god. we wont let OUR money go to pay for social welfare programs that dont work, and are bankrupt, both socially and economically! we are tired of OUR money being taken in a ponzi scheme called social security that anyone under 35 today wont see a penny of, since it will be bankrupt soon. we wont let OUR money go towards socialized medicine, making medical treatment in america plummet to that of canada, england and cuba! we wont let OUR money go to programs that take away OUR right to defend ourselves against criminals with guns, by letting us protect ourselves with guns as well!
SAY NO TO THE DEMOCRATS! tell felder, hikind, silver, and the rest of these so called “on our side” politicians to fly a kite, and register GOP – the party of Freedom, Democracy, Guns and God!
McCain/Palin ’08!!!!!
#26 you make me laugh 🙂
but you are right!
A plea to the klal: please watch your language everyone. This is a yiddishe forum, and we don’t need to hear the language of the goyim.
#22 – not all schools allow the kids to wear sneakers. Anyway, you don’t always have to buy $85 shoes. If you wait until they go on sale…
I totally agree with the writer of this letter. Please tell me why people are so pathetic when it comes to money nowadays. Does a kallah really need a silver bracelet, a diamond ring, a gold ring, and pearl earrings? Nowhere does it say that a wedding ring has to cost thousands of dollars. Doesn’t it have to just be shaveh prutah?
With regard to the young couples – maybe if they don’t understand the value of the dollar and how to use it properly, they shouldn’t be getting married. My uncle is now an optometrist. When he was first married, he went to college and medical school. You know how they lived? Not like all the young couples are living now, that’s for sure! Now tell me, what’s the difference? Why can’t someone do the same thing if he wants to sit and learn? So you won’t buy the $60 bottle of wine for shabbos. Nu, nu. The world won’t fall apart.
#28,
SILVER BRACELET??
where do YOU COME FROM??
I got married not too long ago. I got an expensive ring, expensive gold and diamond bracelet, expensive watch, and a few months after marriage (not such expensive) earrings. While I appreciate that my in-laws are willing to be so generous, they are really far from rich and I don’t understand how they can keep this up for all their sons. There are people who get much more than me. I think I would personally accept it if they would have given me much less and be proud that I came into a learning family who cannot afford expensive jewelry. Unfortunately they feel they have to spend all this money. I do not want to be a Kafuy Tov. But I think it’s an Avla. I love my jewelry. They are really beautiful but it’s really not necessary!
Anonymous, You have made several interesting and valid comments on this topic. I am interested in knowing the source for borrowing to pay for “nice things” for shabbes. Let’s replace “borrowing” with “going into debt” to make the point. I find it difficult to accept this practice, when will this debt be repaid? Next week there’s another shabbes, then another….
I completely agree with the writer – and I think a good first step to solving the problem would be to give all monetary chasuna gifts to the parents of the couples, not the couple. Firstly because this will help them cover some of the costs of the chasuna, (and jewelry and such), and prevent the harrowing debt stories and subsequent health concerns. I don’t know why none of our supposedly caring and well-raised children have not thought of to do this on their own (at least I have not heard of any who did)
Secondly this makes sense because the people who give the checks are usually friends of the parents, not the young couple.
Thirdly, and most importan – I think this will stem some of the overspending we see from the young people. What usually happens is that the newlyweds are set up with everything they could possibly need when they get married – plus they have all this chasuna gift cash. So they get used to having all the necessities, and are able to spend on luxuries without a worry.
They say first impressions are important – so it’s that first year that ruins our young couples. Either the wife is working or they are being supported – but the first year without kids there’s not much necessary expenses, they got all their furniture and housewares bought for them. They don’t even have to spend on food for Shabbos – being invited out so much at first. So why not buy the jewelry, expensive wine and expensive cars.
I think even when the parents do want to support the couple – it makes no sense to do it the first year at all. Even if the chassan is learning, there’s no reason the wife can’t work before she has kids. If she’s just stuck at home – it just starts her off on bad habits of shopping, big phone bills and expecting others to the work – and her husband to buy her expensive jewelry just cause she cooks the most amazing suppers for him that take her all day. Nothing but bad can come from all this.
So all in all – it just makes so much sense for the parents to keep the chasuna cash. And if you do support – wait until the kids have less cash in bank account than you – then maybe.
31, I disagree. My cash gifts are for the chosson and kallah, not the parents. If I would want to help the parents, one way would be a practical generous shower gift – one less thing they have to buy.
And a P.S. Not all kids are supported.
And not all support is adequate – there are still kids struggling with partial support because they can’t find good jobs.
I do feel that there are some kollel couples out there that keep it real.
I agree with this…to a certain extent. I believe that people should not live about their means.
That being said, I see no reason why people who can afford things shouldnt get them. If you cant afford it, dont buy it. If your kids want it, and its out of reach, explain that to them! If they want a really fancy wedding, let them get a job to pay for it. Yes its hard to tell your kids that you cannot afford something and that they cant have what “everyone else has,” but if all the people who couldnt afford it didnt stretch themselves, then it wouldnt be the norm.
I remember being a kid and only having hand-me-down clothing because my father died and my mother was supporting the family. She didnt earn a lot of money so we had to scrimp where we could. My mother taught us the value of money and that we would couldnt always have everything. As I got older, my family was better off financially. At 14, I got a job working for a caterer in my shul. I worked that job until I was 21. I saved most of the money and was able to afford some small luxuries here and there.
When I got married, my (then) fiance and I sat down with our families and asked what our budget was. We worked within a budget. I chose not to have flower centerpieces on the table because my in-laws were working on a limited budget. We had beautiful flowers for me, anyone who walked down, the chupah and a little for the bedeken. I saved a few thousand dollars for them because I understand the value of money and what our families could and could not afford. We still had a beautiful wedding (our budget was still a nice size and we worked with what we had) but did not bankrupt our families.
(PS – I think I come up as anonymous and I am not sure how to change that. FYI – my nick on here is SJSinNYC)
Let’s start with Shabbos Kidushim. A Bar Mitzvah or kiddush for any other reason should have nothing more than sponge cake, schnopps and herring. What else do you need?