Sadly, our community has seen its fair share of Ponzi schemes, phony investments, and thieves who prey on fellow members of their kehilla; We all know the names of the most infamous schemers and scammers that have wrought havoc in our community. Some have been jailed, but others have been “bailed out” to prevent prison time and “mesira.”
Many readers may not know this, but there were at least five Ponzi schemes and frauds exposed in just the past few weeks.
One of them – seemingly the best known one – is alleged to be a whopping $45 million dollars stolen by a thief in Toms River who then fled to Israel. Another one was in Flatbush, where around $10 million dollars was allegedly embezzled. A third involved investors from many Jewish communities around the United States and Israel, and a fourth took place in Williamsburg, where around $50 million was stolen. There’s also a fifth, but I can’t talk about that publicly just yet.
While each scam and scheme had its own “shtick” to it, all shared one feature, a tzad hashaveh if you will: the investors were, by and large, not wealthy. Many, if not all, investors of each scam (except for the Williamsburg one) were hard-working, blue collar individuals; some of them poured their entire life savings into what they were convinced were great deals. In other words, they were all looking to make a quick, easy buck.
A few points that need to be made.
NUMBER ONE: If anyone offers you a 30% or 40% return on your money, immediately turn away and consider calling law enforcement, because whoever is making that claim is likely to end up robbing you and others in the community. Don’t let your greed overtake your seichel and think you’re about to strike it rich. You’re not. Specifically, when someone comes to you with a “great real estate deal,” be very, very thorough. Check every detail and then check it twice. If you’re not a pro and don’t have experience in real estate, get a mentor and learn it. There’s a lot more to real estate than cap rates and price per square foot. There have numerous stories of people losing all they had on real estate deals, thinking that they were about to become a real estate magnate.
NUMBER TWO: Do you know why most of the victims were indeed not wealthy? Because truly wealthy people know that no investor anywhere in the world can promise to give you a 40% return on your money. A healthy investment makes 7% or 8% a year. And in the few cases where there were wealthy investors, they knew better, but they too fell for greed over seichel.
NUMBER THREE: Can we please stop trying to hide these scams? There was one in Monsey a few years ago where a young kid managed to suck in tens of millions of dollars and proceeded to flush it down the drain. It’s high time that we turn these crooks into the cops and make them pariahs in our community. LIMAAN YISHMIU VIYIRAU! We think we are helping people who “made a mistake” by doing so, but in reality, we are severely hurting our kehillos. Not only that, but we are hurting future scammers, because if they’d see what happened to the last guy that tried pulling a shtick, maybe they would think twice before ruining others’ lives – not to mention their own. If current scammers are outed, future ones will think long and hard before doing anything similar, and that will result in many people not going to jail, and many families not destroyed.
I think it’s high time that this becomes a serious point of discussion and our Rabbanim begin publicly warning their shuls. People need to get a grip before more disasters occur.
Zanvel Gertenowitz
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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79 Responses
You make some good points.
The only contention I have is that, while not knowing these stories, i cannot know if the “scammers” here are actual thieves, Or just silly people.
And no, to me thats not the same thing.
ANd it would be wrong of one to call someone who makes a stupid mistake, even egregiously, a scammer.
I’m not saying your wrong though, I am just cautioning against doing so uninformed.
As a side note, Naftali Horowitz, a now pretty well known financial expert in our community, VP of Morgan Stanley wealth management, has spoken a lot on this topic, and spoke about “affinity fraud” being more prevelant in our community.
In simple English, already as a very young child, I was taught by my parents:- “If it’s too good to be true, it ain’t true”
If someone pressures you too much and won’t take a “No”, say “I need time to read your literature or think it through” & then as this article says, call law enforcement, or at any rate speak to someone who shall know how to deal with the authorities.
this letter is about time
just waiting for the first frummie to start with the lashan hara excuse
whoever does not give out the names of these thieves is oiver on losamod al dam reachah
do not give a penny for pidon shvuyim
this will only get worse as we head into a recession
and every would be syndicator is out of business
1) the ” syndicators” were offering 20 percent to some and keeping the rest
2) why weren’t the feds called?? how much frum money has to be stolen??
I am b”h not familiar with ponzi schemes or investing money. Though i am very familiar with the skyrocketing food prices lately (btw only egg prices fell)! Yet not one askan, politician or rebbe/rav came forth to discuss and find solutions. This is most prevalent for the hard working people that do not get govt help (aka foods stamps) b/c they don’t lie and steal other peoples hard earned money (that’s another topic that our Rabbanim should address but of course can’t)!
Please note that it is forbidden under any circumstance to give over a Jew to non Jewish authorities even if it only results in monetary punishment. See shu”a 388:9
Why did you put mesira in scare quotes? Do you disagree with the ancient Jewish maxim and halacha that it is prohibited to give over a jew to gentile authorities?
Are you sure they were real scammer or just spammers? Did they sell bitcoins or fake bullion? Tupperware or Away? Penny Stocks or options? Commodities or comedy? Options or Futures?
Please explain how these scams work as Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum is not around anymore to warn everyone.
Correct most people don’t wake up in the morning and think how to scam people. I believe overwhelmingly that these are just fools or people that got over their heads and couldn’t find a way out or people that have no financial skills etc….Not that people should be any less wary if someone offers you a return more than 7 or 8 percent and not that you should ever give more than you can afford to lose and not that anyone should ever borrow money to invest etc… but to call them thieves etc.. may not be correct. Really important for all people to learn basics of financials btw I.e. how to balance a checkbook, what a p&l looks like, what compound interest is etc…the more you understand how reality work less likely you’ll be pulled into something stupid.
יפה דברת…well said
I have a friend who lost $900,000
He was promised 22% עיסקא and now he is stuck with a line of credit of $450,000 and paying 8.25% interest .
If the Torah says את כספך לא תתן בנשך don’t try to outsmart the Torah .
I am not qualified to come in on any of these cases, because I am not familiar with the specifics of any of them.
I would like to point out though, that there are often misconceptions about investing in general, and about various types of losses in specific.
For starters, investing with a real estate syndicator is not quite “investing in real estate”. It is more like a cross between investing in an unregulated REIT/Security and an indirect real estate investment.
If people were to understand this, they would be much less likely to fall for charlatans.
As far as losses go, there are a variety of types of losses, including but not limited to embezzlement and fraud.
If a syndicator took $3 million worth of investments for a $12 million value add deal and then faced fines, project delays, and cost overruns, they may be forced to walk away from the deal. This could result in their investors losing money, even if the syndicator didn’t do anything wrong (at least intentionally). The current market’s high interest rate could also contribute to the syndicator being forced to walk away from the deal if it causes the deal to become underwater when they come to refinance.
There are many deals that made sense a couple of years ago when rates were lower, but now as they are maturing it becomes clear that they are no longer worth close to the debt let alone the equity investment.
I think the best advice is not to invest money that you cant afford to lose. Investing is gambling.
However taking someones money promising returns while knowing that you have no way to repay it is stealing.
Using our “frum” personae to gain the trust of investors is something that needs reevaluated.
Yes, once we were able to rely on a persons honesty based on his attendance at shule and shiurim. That should be true but a few wolves in sheep clothing has caused us to be wary.
It seems the more isolation & less secular education a community has the easier it is for these frauds to work.
Klal gadol b’Torah: If it sounds too good to be true, be the eternal pessimist.
the most important thing is to push it under the rug and not give out names like the molesters
all under the new religion of “its lashon hara”
“It’s high time that we turn these crooks into the cops and make them pariahs in our community”
It is never permitted to give someone over to the authorities, as the Rambam writes in Hilchos Chovel Perek 8 Halacha 9: אסור למסור ישראל ביד גוים בין בגופו בין בממונו ואפילו היה רשע ובעל עבירות ואפילו היה מיצר ומצערו, it is forbidden to turn someone in to the authorities even if he is a baal aveira and causes pain, וכל המוסר ישראל ביד גוים בין בגופו בין בממונו אין לו חלק בעולם הבא, Mr. letter writer, you are forfeiting your chelek in olam haba, מותר להרוג המוסר בכל מקום ואפילו בזמן הזה, it will also be permitted for anyone to kill you if you would hand someone over to the authorities.
I’m not sure if you were serious or not, just beware you are playing with fire.
I tend to agree with you Kuvult. Affinity fraud can word very well with relatively less educated people and in closed communities.
Yes there are bad apples (very bad ones) but lets not forget about the collective Billions in frum gelt that was created in the past 10 years through syndications and Real Estate deals.
The worst type of fraud is election fraud. When you vote for the crooked DemocRATs you’re contributing to their committing election fraud and allowing scammers, hustlers and crooks who bribe and take bribes to run our country into the ground.
There are many comments here from poskim who are experts in “mesira”, so I should keep quiet. Just in case anybody’s interested, I know of many cases where rabbanim told people to report someone to the police, as it was necessary to save future victims and beis din do not have powers of arrest.
Protecting criminals who pry on the vulnerable in our communities is not frumkeit, it’s krumkeit.
There are real estate deals that fall through. Sometimes the person putting it together made a judgement mistake. Hotel programs that fall through because the guy running it didn’t get the loans he thought he would get and couldn’t get pay his guys on time and they backed out last minute etc etc. Those are not Ponzi. Not everything Is black and white. But it is very foolish to invest money you can’t afford to loose. And never be ashamed to ask questions. If the guy starts screaming at you …RUN!
Thank you!
Yes you can make announcements warning people about being careful investing their money. But you making a blanket statement to call the authorities on “scammers” is wrong, cruel, dumb and irresponsible. The overwhelmingly cases are simply deals that went bad. Remember these investors didn’t just put their money in a safe Mutual Fund or CD. They invested in a more risky deal to get a potentially higher return. And calling the police almost always makes things worse for the investor anyway. The authorities don’t have a magic wand to get your money back. Your solution to call the authorities will bring unbelievable pain to innocent families. Potentially destroying them irrevocably . Let the more responsible rabbonim handle these cases because its very nuanced and every case is different. Clearly you aren’t the one who should be judging this very delicate and sensitive issue.
When investing always be ready to lose it
Yes there are deals worth more then 8% nowadays 7 is what you get interest from a bank
I have many issues to deal with the RS”O when we finally meet at the Keisei Hakovod.
One, is the issue of Maariss Eiyin. If we do not turn over these crooks, then all the goyim
will say, and rightfully so, you see the Olam accepts and approves of this conduct.
The pasuk also says Lifnai Eiver- Not only do not put a stumbling block but if you see it remove it.
These people or vermin are driven by green & greed , like the 25 watch guy in Lakewood, oops he was pardoned,
or the $1.2 B Medicaid fraud guy in FL, also pardoned, but in some shuls, they probably get the aliyah of shishei.
I asked R’ Yisroel Belsky, if one stole money and then ran to yeshiva and dropped $50K on the desk, is that a zechus of tzeddakah. He replied: Absolutely not quite the reverse and yeshiva should not accept it.
It was a case of Poked Avos, and though the beis din did not satisfy my claim, the Federal Court would hear non of it, and read the defendant the riot act, to my partial satisfaction. (( BTW those ehrilich yids did not answer his hazmonos or hasroas ), giving me the heter to go to court )).
IMO, these crooks are WORSE than molesters, a molester messes up a few people these people operate on a much larger scale, then organizations like Tzedek and Aleph make them into celebrities instead of the scum that they really are.
It is high time that we address the ” I must keep up with my neighbor” pressure that has been plaguing our communities, particularly Lakewood, for the past 20 years or so. This includes my house, cars, simchas, a box at adirei hatorah…. The pressure to prove that I’ve “made it” financially is causing people to do crazy things – both the ponzi people and their “investors”.
torahdig,
Thanks for bringing us the clear Halacha
The letter writer must retract his words which are clearly against Halacha
halacha of giving over to goyim was written in the days where it meant certain death etc
todays jails are different
no one is getting killed
besides if someone does a crime knowing what the consequences are
there is no mitzvah of pidoyn shvuyim
look it up
no matter how many rabonnim sign the collection letter
You actually can’t poskin out of a SH”A and you also can’t really poskin out of a Rambam. Please first consult the actual poskim and dayanim of klal Yisroel’s fine history before claiming that it IS mesira.
https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-mesirah-dilemma-by-rabbi-chaim-jachter
Agree or disagree with that article, there’s clearly another view, and the people who quoted SH”A and Rambam without knowing what the modern poskim say are completely clueless and should retract their OWN statements.
Ah… the new religion of “Loshon Hora”. These folks that protect molesters and those involved in unimaginable geneivah will indeed have a share of gehonim in the word to come.
To Torahdig
You don’t have the authority to quote rambams and pasken to condemn ppl to hell. That was the line people used when I was younger not to tell on pedophiles, and lo and behold, today many rabanim actually say that your obligated to out them once they realized the extent of the harm.
In these days because we’re all much more interconnected, so the scale of harm can be immense so perhaps the rambam that you quoted would be viewed in a dif light, secondly not every statement the chachamim made is written in stone, a qualified posek(ie not you) can determine how and when it applies.
In other news, i have a hot tip for an amazing investment, 45% return, act fast, for a limited amount of time you can contact me for details
I will try to make it short.
Regarding Halacha I think it’s time for Rabbi Hoffman to clarify.
I am writing to the people that don’t have money to lose. Those that have can also try the casino. 1 of the first or the first in the heimishe community similar stories happened in Montreal approximately in 1963 where an individual very well respected person took money from people for an investment. I don’t remember all the details I was 3 YO. He was my fathers very close friend. On A Thursday he asked my father for $15000. which he had. My father told him “I will give you the money but I need a second mortgage on your house”. He responded “ok Monday we will go to the notary to sign the documents”. The next morning Erev Shabbos he took off to the USA never to return. He is a “sheiner yid today”. FYI $15000. is equivalent to $148000. today.
To those who say we need to consult Rabbanim because Rambam is not applicable nowadays: Have you consulted Rabbanim before paskening that a Jew has to be thrown to the wolves?
Well written. Can we also stop our brethren from knowingly selling fraudulent postage stamps? Yes, it’s a real thing – and it can result in serious Federal prison time. I discussed this with one ‘seller’ and he had 10 reasons to justify it – This isn’t shtick – it’s a crime. People do get caught and their lives are ruined.
Rambam also says to throw an apikores in a pit and pull out the ladder. Rambam also says chazal could and have the ability to enact Marshall law in such a degenerate individual preying in innocent people. So please don’t give me this jibber jabber about the rambam says don’t go to authorities.. so before u pop ur mouth smarten up . Dinas malchis din.
When you take OTHERS PEOPLES MONEY when you know full well you will not be giving each and every single Person his money plus the 20% gain you promised each person with such strong sales pitch to get your hands in their money for your gain, then yes you are a scammer thief. And those who cover for these destroyers of others lives using Bible verses like snake oil Preachers are just as bad
to mike234
hotel programs that fall through because loans didnt come through etc is not a ponzi
but a stam ganef when money is not given back
if you take money for a program and you dont deliver even if you got scammed you need to pay the people back
you getting scammed is not an answer
you take money from people to deliver a program
you dont?
you owe the people the money
plain geneiva
bpmomy,
Regarding food prices stop complaining and do something. You can open your own farm. Grow your own stuff. Raise some chickens goats and cows.be self sufficient.
Eey, Doom and Torahdig, in this case, it is not only permitted (Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 388,11 with Rema), it is a mitzva (Devarim 17,7). This is also the view of Rav Eliashiv (Rabbi Sinai Adler, Davar Sinai 45-46 ), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (ibid note 15), and Rav Wosner (Shevet Halevi, Yoreh Deah 58),
Chazz, I think that you mean martial law, although this is technically military law. Marshall law is the law of some \one named Marshall or someone with that title.
to best cpa
you are correct
however
when the price of a container from china was 20k prices for disposables etc went through the roof
now that the container prices are 3k
alot of the stores have NOT reduced the prices
that is wrong
there is no heter for mesira unless a posek says so.
You can’t be moser if he is not worse then one but if he is then why can’t you moser him
Blaming the victims for investing makes as much sense as blaming the victim of a molestation for not wearing a tight belt.
@yiddish, what bank is giving 7%? I’ve seen max about 5%
There are some nefarious people out there that do prey on Frum people looking to make some money. There was a guy running a Penny Stock pump & dump and he specifically targeted the frum community. He got caught was arrested and then became a snitch to the FBI. He sent a few frum people to prison.
Now while some investments can go bad for various unintentional reasons, the problem is that the syndicator does not come forward and communicate with the investors, that is the “crime”.
To: Its no picnic these filty jails………..OH Way
Heshem Yishmerieni
Totally agree 💯!!!
@commonsaychel
Please don’t compare this to ‘A Molester‘
while from the outside it might look similar it is very different,
Here u r talking about a monetary loss which I don’t underestimate,
But a Molester is actually killing people while they r living in this world Hashem Yerachem!!!
@H2F, Taking someone’s life savings a reducing him to begging to put bread on the table and to make a wedding is worse than molestation in my opinion.
As a victim of a lesser known ponzi scheme out of Lakewood a few years ago I empathize with those who are concerned of the issur chomer of messira.
I would also encourage anyone who is a victim to reach out to R’ Mendel Shafran of Bnei Braq ( via phone or shliach) and follow the psak one gets regarding messira.
Dear Editor,
I am writing this to you personally from a Yid to a Yid, no need to publish.
I am personally involved along with other Askunim in one of these cases working hard to help recover funds for the victims without it ending up in criminal court which ultimately will not bring back money plus will end up potentially incriminating innocent victims.
As with every story and rumor there is a lot more then meets the eyes to this situation, i am not a POSEK so i will not get into the argument of whether it is allowed what you are suggesting and potentially being the one that caused it to happen (i have asked my posek and he said unequivocally not, whoever does has a din MOSER and you know what it says on that) but while i believe you wrote this without bad intentions you are causing a lot of harm to our process and a lot of pain to innocent people.
One of the areas that Hashem punishes on this world – and punishes without mercy – is when causing pain to other people regardless of their guilt or innocence, please reconsider this quickly.
I am happy to talk to you personally if you are open minded to consider removing this post, i understand it creates good buzz but the risk to others as well as to you from Hashem is not worth it, i have given up on bigger things and bigger nisyonos in order to do what is right, this is your NISOYON don’t fall before it is too late.
Thank you,
YOSSIES
I am not talking about someone who took money and ran away. It was an example that not everything is ponzi. The guy could have made wrong calculations and somehow lost the money he took from people after his expensis not knowing it wont work out. of course he has to pay back WHEN HE HAS THE MONEY. BEING rodef him when he was an ones (if he was) turns you into a רוצח
How does anybody know that this letter wasn’t written by the most qualified expert on the topic of mesirah? (Did I miss a byline?)
My only question is, if we stop hiding all the wrongdoers than who will there be left to trust?
*Trust less, research more!!!*
We understandably react relexively with horror at the thought of “mesira”. However, the halachos of mesira are not quite what the average person believes. The molester is generally at risk of re-offending and is often labeled as such by the authorities upon being registered as an offender. These labels are not applied randomly, and should be taken seriously. Once someone is deemed at risk of re-offending, the individual becomes a מצער את הציבור, and this becomes a different matter. There are other exceptions. Our quick reactions might have a noble source, but actions need to be taken only upond proper consultation with poskim that are versed in the subject. I have posed questions about mesira to several rabbonim whom I know to be dayanim that paken shailos. Many of them refused to pasken claiming to not be adequately versed in the subject.
You are promoting mesirah. The reason ppl fall for these scams is because they ARE STUPID! Anyone who knows a thing or two about investing knows what the S&P500 is and knows that those returns that you mentioned are likely to be a fairytale. Every adult can make decisions for themselves and if they want to get into High Risk High Return investments LET THEM DO IT. Hashem gives every person seichel and daas to make decisions for themselves and their families.
The funny thing is when people marry off their kids to the kids if these perpetrators because “there is money there”. Would you marry your child to one of Madoffs kids or grandchildren? Have some class and realize that crooks are usually psychopaths – they will not treat your child better than they did their investors.
Number Four: Stop glorifying convicts.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1940708/boruch-matir-asurim-eli-weinstein-and-shalom-weiss-both-out-of-prison-thanks-to-trump-pardons.html
@SBB, both of these people are scum and should be thrown out of every shul.
ThankHashem, how much did you steal? Or, was it a family member of your’s who was involved in a Ponzi scheme. Don’t worry so much about defending crooks and low lives. I’ll take the portion of gehonim which you believe the author of the article is entitled to. Keep the message up, YWN!
if you want to get technical
Shalom did not steal from yiddin
the other crook
bedavka fleeced heimishe yiddin did it willfully and would do it again in a second given the oppurtunity
zero rachmonis on him
on his wife and kids yes
and all the yeshivas that got money from him should give it back to the people that lost
So now ywn is a basis for all kinds of לשון הרע רחילות מוציא שם רע. And their rav allows this?
Waiting for Rabbi Hoffman response
@Yossis , sholam first time [plumbing] he stole from yidden, second he told from all and cause headaches for all the yidden in the insurance business, myself included.
Amazing how many poskim post on ywn…I would think they were too busy to debate mesira in a chat.
@ThankHashem -Bailing out the Ponzi schemer will only enable him to do it again. The guy I referred to was a two or three time offender. They had rachmonis on him the first couple of times and he was around for the big score. These people need to be at the very least kicked out of shuls.
The biggest problem is the ones that get screwed and call out the criminals are the ones that get treated the worst. It is a shame!! Rabbonim have no problem taking $$ and giving covid to the biggest crooks.
This is why it’s important to have an education.
One who learns without an occupation resorts to this. The yeshivas preach college is treif secular studies aren’t important learn in kollel try to marry rich and then “figure it out” after.
TGIShabos
Trying to make it about the person posting without knowing me or me knowing you (or how honest you are in your life) is not contributing to this dialogue in any way.
i will respond to your specific arguments if you have something substantive and intelligent to post.
I think the person who wrote this is an economic illiterate. The way these things work is that one person, called the syndicator, pools funds from blue collar investors. A hypothetical example: Let’s say they want to buy a house worth 10k so you go to 20 Chaim Yankels who want to make a quick buck and they all give 100 so now you have 2k. You take out a loan for the other 8k and buy the house.
Now these guys plan to flip it so lets say sell it for 20k and then share the proceeds with the 20 Chaim Yankels, giving them returns of, in some cases, well over 100%.
If chv”sh that doesn’t work out and the value drops, lets say to 8k. The syndicator is forced to sell the house for 8k and obviously the Chaim Yankels just got their investments wiped out because that 8k goes to whoever they got the loan from.
It’s 100% mutar for a person to do this, it’s taking a risk for the chance of high reward and someone who invests his life savings in this type of stuff is a real shoitah…
@ThankHashem It is amazing you are trying to help. However victimizing the criminal and bullying the victim is not the way of Torah Yidden. It’s Alvin Braggs style policy. It’s sedom. It’s the opposite of דרכיה דרכי נועם. It’s sick and everyone is sick of self appointed Askanonim protecting the criminals. The askonim need to ask permission from the whole community before representing the entire community .They are taking away any repercussions for thief’s to pray on people’s life’s savings. Who are you to protect the thief. Who appointed you as the askonim. If we locked up the first 27 year old guy who ran away with peoples life’s savings, maybe we wouldn’t be taking. Instead he laughed himself off to his private jet. Bailed out by askonim, who happen to be members of one of the richest families in Klal Yisroel. You have no idea what it means for a middle class person to loose their life’s savings. THANK UOU YWN FOR CARING ANOUT KLAL YISROEL !!!!!!!!!
YWN is way out of line here ,the overwhelming majority of yiden are trying to raise capital and do good business and it works out very well for us as a community bh, so this article is pointless! Everyone with common sense knows you need to do due diligence, or expect issues ! Are you trying to convince people because of the story we shouldn’t invest money anymore that’s ridiculous ans that’s how everyone grows their money ! There is risk in every business move whether it’s with a third party or not .
I happen to know the guy in this story personally I know the story in detail and like in most Ponzi schemes they start off well meaning and make some mistakes along the way and instead of taking losses and getting out the double up in the hope of recovering the loss and so on …. The returns that he was promising in beginning of the run were actually very realistic and doable considering the investments that were made. I think there is a lesson to learn here in finance but there is a bigger lesson here in how we are judging our brethren. We keep shabbos and eat kosher right ? Let’s try and keep the rest of our religion and follow shulchan aruch here …there is a lot more at stake than just money !
Moderators Note: You clearly didn’t read the first word of the headline, nor read the last words of the post.
@baltimoredass
We do not represent or work for the people involved in the scheme, we are working for and with the victims and it is in their interest that this should be the venue to resolve this.
It may sound sometimes – especially when someone is out of the loop on the specifics – that there is a benefit to go another route, but it is a slippery slope and usually drags in innocent people.
All I’m saying is, be “Achrayesdig” when advocating something like this you may inadvertently end up doing more harm then the people that were involved in a scheme.
@IzerAyid
You are 100% right that there should be a system of awareness within the community if say it’s actually a mitzva so people do not get entrapped, Ehrlicha responsible Rabunim should guide how to do that as this is a super delicate “mitzva” with freaky outcomes (בין אדם לחבירו).
@lakwhut, some of the biggest crooks that we had were the highly educated ones, lawyers cpas etc
Says in mishleh “es nefesh balove yukach” and “kovehim nefesh” people can not know how bad the minds are of these criminals that are not doing it just to have a good time with money or even for the lust of having wealth that do it to kill and from the lust of robbing people only they would do anything wrong they can do at anytime that they can and they are the worst of criminals it’s not just about money and sometimes nothing to do with it they only enjoy what can’t even write about it’s stupid to think this is only about monetary cause it’s not
It is my recollection that the Shulchan Aruch in Choshen Mishpat endorses handing over fellow Jews who engage in counterfeiting.
כל הנ”ל הבל ושטות
‘There’s also a fifth, but I can’t talk about that publicly just yet.’
Well fasten your seat belts because that story will be breaking open soon.
Multiple people will be heading to jail. This scheme couldn’t be handled alone.
My prediction is either they’ll run away somewhere very far or go away for good.