To whom it may concern.
I am a longtime Rebbi in a Brooklyn Yeshiva. I never in a million years thought I would have to be writing such a letter, but I am left without a choice.
A few weeks ago, hundreds of Rabbeiyim and Morah’s were informed – via a letter on YWN – that our summer vacations would be shortened, and that the Yeshivas would be starting earlier than it had been for the past 60 years. The letter was released by Torah Umesorah, and signed by the Vaad Roshei Yeshiva, all of whom I have the utmost Kavod for. Yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs in Brooklyn have reached an unprecedented “consensus” to begin the 2023-2024 school year around the start of Elul, rather than with the secular start date of Labor Day.
I thought it was only myself who was troubled by this decision, but after talking to dozens upon dozens of Rabbeiyim and teachers, I found that I was far from the only one perplexed. To begin with, every single one of them was highly insulted. Not one of us was consulted with before this massive decision was made. Now, to be very clear, we all know that Gedolei Olam can make decisions as they see fit, but at the very least the Rabbeyim and teachers should have had a say in the matter — especially if the driving force behind this decision was one or two Baalei Batim. If they are going to listen to Baalei Batim, then there is no reason why we – the Mechanchim – should not have a voice.
The list is very long. The reasons are many. And we should have been given a voice at the table.
Here are just a few thoughts to ponder:
- Is the Yeshiva I am employed in going to increase my salary for an extra week of work? We have yet to be told anything of the sort.
- Will yeshivas increase the tuitions for parents due to an extra week and a half of Yeshiva?
- Do these Baalei batim who have never in their lives driven a child to Yeshiva know that there is no bussing for most schools, since it is before Labor Day? That means that working parents (which is around 99.5% of all parents) will have to drive their children to school and be late for work. Was this taken into consideration?
- Do the people who made this decision understand that nearly every single one of us work all summer both days and night to make ends meet, and we literally had this week and a half between camp ending and yeshiva starting to get ourselves together so we don’t walk into a classroom looking and feeling like a “Shmata”? This was our only vacation to rest up and be able to walk into a classroom refreshed. We diodn’t sit a swimming pool all summer. We ran from camp to camp, bungalow colony to bungalow colony, house to house, teaching, tutoring, and doing everything we can to pay our bills.
- Don’t you think our employers should have the decency to talk to us first?
Finally, it should be noted that the letter was sent out before every Brooklyn girls school was on board even thought the letter says that they are on board and this was a “consensus”. In fact, as of right now, not all schools have agreed. For the sake of honesty, this should be stated publicly.
I hope that this decision is reconsidered, and rabbeyim and teachers are treated with the dignity and respect we deserve. We dedicated our lives to being mechanech tens of thousands of children with good hashkafos, mesorah, and solid torah education. If you trust us to protect and watch over our diamonds, we should at the very least be given an opportunity to voice our opinions when it comes to a decision of this magnitude.
Name withheld upon request (due to fears of losing my job in 12 seconds).
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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79 Responses
Can’t figure out if this is satirical.
Get the popcorn ready for the comments…
The saddest part is the last line:
“Name withheld upon request (due to fears of losing my job in 12 seconds).”
There are arguments on either side, and I am not one to argue with Das Torah, but this mechaneich has valid points that are worthy of discussion.
Unfortunately, gadol abuse, wherein certain people present a situation to Das Torah and purposely, or inadvertently, leave out certain details that might change the psak, is not uncommon. It is possible that if enough mechachim, respectfully, approach Torah U’mesorah, that a mutually beneficial solution would be implemented.
As the wife of a mechanech I must tell you that this letter is right on. I know many mechanichim who work day and night during the summer teaching in day camps to allow their own children to go to camp and tutoring to make another few dollars. This week was the only time they had to get away or just relax at home before going back to the classroom. The students will not be starting the school year off with even a semi refreshed Rebbi.
It is a good idea to start early AND end the zman also early, but this new system should begin next year so everyone can adjust. Money must also be allocated for busing before Labor Day.
Summer camps should also adjust to the new schedule beginning next year.
Everyone will be happy.
“We didn’t sit [at] a swimming pool all summer. We ran from camp to camp, bungalow colony to bungalow colony, house to house, teaching, tutoring, and doing everything we can to pay our bills…
Well, sorry to break the news to the anonymous author of this letter (assuming its not a troll) but I’d guess that most YWN readers will NOT be spending their summers in the Hamptons “sitting around the pool”. Sadly, most of us will be working most of the summer and the fortunate are able to take a week or two off with their families by using some of their vacation days. Nor will they get paid for taking time off for yom tovim or during school breaks. That typically comes out of the few days that most companies provide for unspecified personal leave or must be made up by working on weekends, holidays or other times.
They could stay for the elul zman is there was a reason but there is no reason that for elul they should be in the camps they was made so that children should not see the dirty of Florida vacations or the farockaway
Beaches and the pool but now it is just kosher ridiculous there is no more of it and they are better off home then in camp for elul
We have rebbiem in our midst who would publicly challenge a ruling from Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky Shlit”a !?!? What has happened to klal yisroel? How can a person with no kavod hatorah teach our children torah. As for the writers claim that desion was inluenced by “baal habatim”.Rav Moshe Sherer used to say about sentiments such as that ” people who think that da’as torah can be influenced by outsiders have no idea of the chachma of the gedolim & how impossible such a thing would be”.
I commend this Rebbe for writing this biderech eretz. I am proud if this was my child’s rebbe. Ashrecha.
Why on earth would this be satirical or a troll? And who needs popcorn to enjoy someone else’s hardship. This writer is 1000% percent right and then some. People not in chinuch don’t have a clue of what’s involved and the energy it takes to be mechanech “their” children. He’s not implying that anyone else is sitting in the Hamptons, or that their job is easier or harder. He’s just rightfully saying that the week between camp and school is crucial to the physical and emotional well being of a mechanech to the benefit of “your” children and should not be taken away from them by people who never taught a day in their life.
One point that is insane is that many schools did NOT go along with this yet they were told that they were. This is crazy.
My husband is a rebbi and he was livid when he found out about this decision from me after I read it on YWN
@bck – clearly, you have no idea how this went down. But that’s OK. And FYI, the golden years of Reb Moshe Sherer ztl are long gone. Take a look around Lakewood. Vehayavin Yavin.
Does a psak overrides a contract between the school and the teacher? I don’t think so.
So, if the psak is directed to the school managers, it is up to the latter to negotiate with the teachers – and parents – to implement the ruling by gedolim.
If the teacher is working without a contract – then he is “at will” employee and essentially agreed in advance to whatever conditions are put out there. This teacher has a choice to start his own school and implement the policies he thinks are good for him and for the children.
How do Rebbeim in places like Lakewood who have a lot more days of teaching manage? How do Lakewood parents get their children before labor day? They don’t even have mass transit or the option of walking or biking for children in older grades there.
I’m sure that there were SOME rebbeim who were asked for input. In any case it was no secret that this initiative was in the work for years. It was not just one or two baaley batim who wanted it like the letter claims. I’ve seen calls for it for way over a decade.
> If they are going to listen to Baalei Batim
This grates a little. Baalei Batim are the ones with the mitzva of educating their children and they are paying the teachers for the job. Baalei Batim should be able to express their preferences to the school without a need to appeal to gedolim.
@gadolhadorah
You can sit in the pool while doing work.
It’s 2023 and almost 2024.
Almost everything is remote
Very valid points. I found this letter very respectful
This is a bizayon. Pull this down now.
bck:
Do you know for a fact that GEDOLIM were asked? Surprise surprise! Ask them yourself. Show them this letter and see what they truly hold. YES! You are allowed to ask the Godol if he was truly spoken too! And what his opinion is. Be dan the writer lkaf zechus! That is Daas Torah.
Well this escalated fast. I think this topic needs alot more discussion. And input from parents and rabbeyim. Not baalei batim.
Therr are many good points in the letter that may NOT have been asked to or by the GEDOLIM. Ask any one with experiance.
A few points from someone who knows the hock.
Surprised bubble masses, every rebbe and morah knows this has been cooking for months..
Menahalim and menahalos have been arguing the merits and problems with this move all winter long
The real plan was to give everyone 2 years to get on board as it’s not nogea next yr..this would address the choshen mishpat aspect..and give people time . true most girls skools are not going along with it some are going to symbolically start on thu for half a day and let them run back to the country for shabbos and labor day
In the end the decision was to put the letter out and start the ball rolling even if only a few are ready. More to say …
I think that like so many things that the democrats do to try to fix a problem, they try to solve it without looking at the unintended consequences.
Lehavdil, this may be the case here. First of all if the gedolim were asked, it’s very likely that they weren’t asked with these consequences mentioned (as someone above mentioned).
Second of all who says the the gedolim really signed? I never believe any signatures until I speak to the person because I’ve seen too many times that their names were forged. For some reason, if you believe that your goal is correct, you think that you have a right to do anything you want in order to get it done including forge a gedols name.
I myself am a mechanech and I don’t teach in the summer because I found that I have a lot more patience and understanding with the kids when I take off for the summer. I do another job. Will i have to leave it early for this?
Also, even if Starting school early may be warranted but maybe we should have an extra week and a half off this June.
I get so sick and tired of baalei batim that don’t live in our world and have no concept of what our lives are like, making decisions for us both in cases like this and being on boards.
Yes, the work force should be complemented and incentives should be put in place.
However his terrible grievances makes me ask if he suits his position, it really sounds like he is fed up with this Avodes Hakodesh, does he see it as unfortunate? Maybe he should try real estate instead, he might be very successful.
After all, one can be BITTER or BETTER, but definitely not both.
“You can sit in the pool while doing work.
It’s 2023 and almost 2024.
Almost everything is remote…”
BathTavath: Could you provide (offline) your location with the pool so all the erhliche YWN readers who needlessly toil away in their physical offices,labs, stores, repair trucks etc. can come visit you and enter into the new world of remote work while floating their iPads and doing laps.
Clearly you are trolling the responses to the OP but virtually ALL of the major law firms, financial service companies, pharmaceutical labs aand even media companies now require their employees to be BACK IN THE OFFICE at least 3 or 4 days a week to keep their jobs and be eligible for any bonuses. While many clients prefer to use zoom calls (rather than paying us for the time and air fares to fly out for business meetings) some are also back to in-person meetings. Even some of the most “hip” tech companies have told their employees to get their behinds back into their $1800 Aeron and X-Chairs while cutting back on the free sushi lunches and virtual reality computer games in the break rooms. The inhumanity of it all…..
P.S. To those who think its apikorsus for gadolim to seek input from knowedgeable baalei batim, perhaps you need more of adult swim time.
I agree with most of the points the author made, but I must take issue with the point of having the week and a half to get himself together.
Most parents work full time. We don’t get vacation for the summer. We also don’t get vacation for Yomim Tovim. I’ve heard teachers say that schools must be closed at minimum a week before Pesach so that the teachers have time to clean and cook for Yom Tov. What do you think most parents do?
Yes, you need to work over the summer to make ends meet. That’s true for everyone. If I lost 2 months of my salary, I’d have it even more difficult than I do now. Let’s not forget that in many schools, children of Rabbeim and teachers get discounted or even free tuition – which is the biggest cost that many of us deal with, even more than our mortgage!
Yes, you should have been informed. Yes, if you work more days, you should get paid more. But don’t cry about burning out without the vacation. Welcome to the real world.
Did not make it clear if we are talking about chinuch or about money and vacation maybe it will keep people from the hotels
Smerel
“How do rabeiimplaces like Lakewood who have a lot more days of teaching manage? How do Lakewood parents get their children before labor day? They don’t even have mass transit or the option of walking or biking for children in older grades there.”
Firstly unlike brooklyn rabbeim, they don’t spend 2 hours looking for parking.
Second, it’s no different then if your boss in whatever field, decides that you need to work instead of giving you your agreed upon vacation. This was the expected schedule for years, so there is a reasonable assumption for future years, yes common decency is you ask their opinions. Even if it doesn’t end up going their way.
The girls and boys don’t need and shouldn’t have more than a week between camp and school or yeshiva. It is unnecessary and creates havoc for families. Parents shouldn’t have to take vacations with their families between camp and school. Summer is enough time for the kids to have break they don’t need additional 2 weeks. From camp to school is generally 2.5 weeks. That’s excessive. They are right for starting earlier so the the kids are not left doing nothing.
You rebbeim and teachers get paid for Yom tov and all other perks that we hard working Parents don’t get. We have to take vacation days.
You chose to be a rebbi and כל הכבוד. The weeks salary isn’t going to make a difference. That’s your job you are getting paid for. The fact until now you didn’t need to work before labor day was a bonus. It was wrong all these years. Now you are just losing your bonus
Rebbim and teachers take a week off during your summer jobs but don’t punish the schools. You teachers and Rebbim have it easy. Try working in the real world and tell us what hard work is. כלי קודש being among our fellow brothers is Easy. Try working in the real world not the sheltered כלי קודש.
A employer doesn’t need to ask you when to start and finish your job. He decides when his teachers should and shouldn’t work. You don’t like it leave. Bussing is our the parents responsibility not the rebbeim.
Summer vacation should be 4 weeks and that’s it.
And winter we should have 2 weeks in Dec off and 2 weeks in Feb. That would be healthy for parents, kids and teachers. We don’t need 8 weeks off in one shot.
4 weeks in the summer is plenty and 2 weeks Dec and 2 weeks Feb. This way the kids don’t forget what they learnt as well as have a healthy schedule throughout the year
For all the Bal habatim out there, Let us all not forget that a rebbe works on Sundays. This means that his Shabbosim are also thinking and preparing what he will be teaching the next day. His summer vacation is the only time he gets to take a deep breath and to relax for a few minutes.
For all the bal habatim out there who can’t seem to “fargin” a summer vacation for a rebbe. Let us not forget that a rebbe is hard at work even on Sundays. This means that his shabbosim are also learning and preparing what he will be teaching the next day. The summer is literally the only time he gets to relax for a couple of days.
It would surprise me if there will be rebbeim and teacher who will look for another form of employment. As much as I hate unions especially the teachers unions, this would never go down like this if there were one. Yeshivas have a hard time paying decent salaries, so I think it is a real concern that the educators will not be compensated fairly for the extra week. I think it would have been a lot fairer and considerate if this were proposed for the following school year and not just shock the system of parents, children and teachers with this decision. I realize the gedolim made this decision but I do wonder what kind of information was presented to them and whether any of these concerns were even raised to the gedolim.
Not one person pro or con mentioned that the rebbie teaches 6/7 days each week. Parents, for the most part, do not and so the argument from parents that they also work long, hard hours is true; but most do not do it 6 days a week. This was not presented to our Rabbeyim in a ba’kavod’dik manner. It was not. It was forced onto them while it could have been done the way we want them to treat our children: with respect.
While I empathize with the struggle this rebbe is going through, I must vociferously disagree with this letter.
You state that the initiative was made at the behest of 2 baalei batim and that rabbeims side wasnt considered.
What an utterly deranged charge!
How are YOU to know how many rabbeim were consulted with?!
Beside the fact that most everyone involved in Torah U’mesora have chinuch experience themselves, how do YOU know, that just because YOU werent called upon for an opinion, that your concerns were not brought up and considered?!
THIS IS PLAIN SLANDER!!!
Rebbeim are overworked and underpaid. They are also being Moiser Nefesh day in day out for our children to help them have a Torah Hashkafah and be successful in life despite the crazy world we live in. Baalei Batim don’t have a right to determine how things should look- much like a Rav shouldn’t be controlled by the board- This is not secular school where the Rebbeim are simple hired for a job-
Sorry, got cut off…
I meant to ad..
Now, I know you dont mean it, and that you have valid concerns, but the assumption you made regarding some of the wisest people in the generation is simply egregious.
And finally, and i say this with respect, I dont believe you should be a rebbe.
Not because you arent a good mechanech, I’m sure you have those talents, but when the dollar starts stressing so much, that you assume the gedolim dont understand your struggle, or that your financial situation supersedes what is the correct course in upbringing our cildren al derech hakodesh.
TYhis means, that currently, this position is not for you. You should be taking a job at something that can set you on a solid foothold financially.
When I started reading I thought that this rabbi was going to discuss some issue related to chinuch and why this might not be the best move for the children. To my surprise it was totally about himself. I am curious if he thinks it would be beneficial for the children which I believe was the reason the gedolim pushed for the change.
-phatogre77- So Rebbeim are not allowed to think about themselves? Even Rebbeim are not Malachim-
Face it, with attitudes like yours before you know it you’ll be left with unqualified substitutes, parents, and teenagers doing the avodas hakodesh on your children… just so you know, the writer of this letter is not a daas yochid. I’m in chinuch for over 30 years and have been around and know how the overwhelming majority of mechanchim feel about matters such as this.
chash
YOUR talking pure stupidity
Many long time mechanchim know that this daas Torah business is many times abused. בעונתינו הרבים. The best thing is to ask the Gedolim themselves. See if the gabai lets you in. Then you will know the truth.
Not mixing into the debate if Yeshivas should start earlier or not. Just trying to say that there are 2 sides and the writer has valid concerns and they should be adressed by our Rabanim who should give out (with valid signatures) some clarification.
Whenever the Rebbi/teacher situation becomes a topic of debate people are very quick to talk about how they work full time and don’t either get time off.
Rebbeim work Sunday through Friday. They don’t get legal holidays off, nor do they have the vacation days that other professions have. The amount of preparation a Rebbi does outside of school hours can account for their entire evening, every night of the week.
Yes, there are professions which require working on Sundays or after hours, however, those professions typically pay handsomely, and/or pay overtime.
I don’t believe there is another profession that requires the number of hours that Rebbeim spend working that pays as dismally as a Rebbi’s salary.
As an aside, a Rebbi or teacher expends a tremendous amount of emotional energy in the classroom. This is to the benefit of your children. Having a Rebbi who is overworked, exhausted, and emotionally drained is a lot worse than having an accountant in the same predicament.
As a fellow Mechanech, I can attest to the fact that all the Rabeim knew for years that this was being discussed by the Gedolim. This was no surprise.
A Mechanech should not be questioning the Geolim, certainly not on a public forum. If you have an issue with this, contact the Vaad Roshei Heyshivos directly.
Besides, if you chose to go into chinuch, I would hope your main concern is what is best for your talmidim, not what is best for yourself. Everyone agrees the summers are too long. Most children slip in the summers and the first half of the school year is spent tyring to get them back on track. The Lakewood/ Monsey system is a much healthier system.
The Rebeim’s salaries in New York are also a lot higher than in Lakewood. (In most schools now). Rabbeim salaries in many schools got significant raises recently. True we work Sundays, but we only work until early afternoons every day. The 10 month school year, minus vacations and Yomim Tovim is a joke. It’s more like teaching for 8 months out of the year. Sick days and simchas are not docked. Salaries are paid with parsonage and no tax is paid. Many Rabeim don’t have to pay for health insurance. No tuition. Chasdei Lev and other benefits. Chanukah gifts comes out to the upper thousands for many Rabeim.
A Rebbi has no right to complain.
A Morah, on the other hand, does.
Moros work at least as hard as Rabeim. Same hours, or more. Only limited personal or sick days allowed. Even with the recent Torah UmeSorah initiative, their salaries don’t come anywhere close to Rabeim’s. Their benefits are non-existent. They get almost nothing Chanukah. (Most schools pool the money, and Moros end up with a few dollars each.) Their mesiras nefesh, with all their responsibilities at home is at least as great as their Rabeim counterparts. But their recognition is nowhere close. Rabeim can “tutor” at night. In New York they charge a fortune now. The Moros have to cook suppers and do laundry at night, while talking to the parents on the phone.
There is a reason girls don’t want to go into Chinuch anymore. But it’s always the Rabbeim demanding more and complaining…
The camping experience energizes the Rebbeim for the upcoming year in Yeshiva as well as the campers and staff. Everyone attending a summer sleep away program looks forward for the life changing experience. This is certainly more rewarding than ten plus months in the yeshiva setting, as many mechanchim admit. The time between yeshiva and camp as well as between camp and yeshiva gives everyone an opportunity to look forward to an enjoyable summer and to their upcoming year in yeshiva. Reducing that quality time will be counter productive since everyone, including mechanchim, deserve the same time off as they have had for many decades past.
I love it how the ppl with an agenda are hiding behind reb Shmuel Kaminetzsky shlita. Did you follow his psak also when it came to vaccines? (It is public knowledge that he vehemently opposes vaccines). No. And neither did most of klal Yisroel when we decided to vaccinate our kids against measles. So give me a break, this whole summer school plan was pushed for by one or two baalebatim who have agendas and now it is enforced as if it is a psak min haShamayim. Fact is that bais Yaakov of BP and several other big names are not on board. Let’s have some common sense and overturn this decision. The current system worked for 60 yrs and why fix something that’s not broken.
As others have pointed out Rebbeim work 6 days a week. They also have a relativley low salary without much hope of substancial raises or serious bonuses or stock options etc. They chose the job leshaim shomayim but they are people too. Alot of times with large families. They usualy live simply, dress their kids simply and forgo alot of the excess stuff most of the parents in the school take for granted. Think vacations, eating out, etc, etc.
Their job is hard and draining. Possibly alot harder than most corporate and even store owner jobs. The parents barely say thank you and it is usualy complaints they hear. Yes we bh have the Tzadikim from Chasdei Lev who brought up the prestige of our Rabbeim but the parents have to realize its their chiyuv of veshinantom levonecha that the Rabbeim are doing for THEM.
So please please give the Rabbeim the benefit of the doubt. They are doing YOUR job and getting paid a pittance for it.
@chatzkal
“qualified” for Avodas Hakodesh, does not fall in line with this kind of grievances, especially in the public.
1. There are valid points on both sides.
2. If you consider the amount of preparation that goes into teaching, even five days per week, let alone six, along with the preparation for each new grade; add in grading tests, meeting with parents, etc. the average teacher puts in well over 2,000 hours per year. (This has been documented in several studies.)
3. As many have noted, there is currently a shortage of teachers for mosdos. Yes, most teachers in private schools are at-will, but any business owner or manager knows that the right people are what keep the business going.
4. On the other side, bussing is very important for working parents. Most people work jobs that cannot be done remotely, either because the job definition doesn’t align (painter, construction, store salesman) or because the work place doesn’t permit it.
5. Personally, I can appreciate why, from an educational perspective, starting earlier makes sense. I don’t think that is the issue, per se; rather, that many feel this change was brought about without a discussion, or in conference, with those who are affected most by the decision: parents and teachers.
6. Lastly, I think the OP would be wise to take his perspective, respectfully, to the Rabbonim directly. There have been several situations where Rabbonim changed their position once aware of information that was not brought before them at the time of the original pesak.
And we, as parents, should remain ever thankful to those who work tirelessly, to instill our children with a love of Torah. Don’t take out frustrations with the “system” on the dedicated teachers.
The anonymous author raises very good points, but one point, which is really the crux of the entire issue, is only alluded to.
When I first heard of this “discussion” a number of years ago, my first thoughts were that it seems to be a whole lot of noise about nothing. Is there really a serious problem that some years the children don’t have much (or any) time to learn about the Yomim Noraim? Is this seriously problematic in pre-school and kindergarten, where the Morah can’t get all the coloring and posters and apple/honey tchachkes over to the parents in time (I’m not belittling the value of that chinuch, I’m merely questioning the long-term results of it being partially missing in some years)? Or is it a major problem in the mid-grades, where the result is that by and large, the kids remain ignorant of this crucial period in a yid’s life? Or is it a big issue in the upper grades, where children actually don’t know the halachos? It seems to anyone who thinks somewhat clearly that none of this is true. The reality is that statistically, kids in high school know what there is to know quite well at appropriate levels, in spite of the shortage of time to teach it when they were younger.
And this is the point. Mechanchim by and large do not agree that there is a problem here. (Bimechilas kvod the groisse chachomim and even the sgan Rosh yeshivos Shlit”a ul’rfuah shlaima, they themselves should have insisted on involving the opinions of Rabbeim whose boots are actually on the ground in this discussion.) A large number (our author and as he states, many of his peers, as a start) feel that this is an “askonus” problem, not a “chinuch” problem. An “askonus” problem is a baalei batim (ie layman) problem, which makes noise but is often meaningless. And therefore, if the mechanchim see no chinuch problem, they should be fuming that they were not at all consulted.
Kol hakovod to this Rebbe for speaking his mind as well as most likely the minds of the large majority of affected teachers.
Listen to Our Gedolim!
The gedolim of Torah Umesorah are trying to correct a problem in the calendar that we have had for decades. When Rosh Chodesh Elul is early, camps are forced to end early in order to have counselors who are Bnei Torah – counselors must leave before Rosh Chodesh to get back to yeshiva. If left uncorrected, this year there would be a huge gap of literally three weeks between the end of camps and the start of yeshiva.
I think we can all agree that having three weeks of unstructured time off after camps are over before yeshiva starts is not a good chinuch idea. I believe every mechanech and bal habos will agree with that premise.
Torah Umesorah’s is to simply shift the calendar by one week (not one and a half weeks) and have it based upon Rosh Chodesh Elul and not Labor Day. The goal is to have mosdos end school one week earlier in June and start one week earlier (closer to Rosh Chodesh Ellul).
Everyone knows that the end of the school year is not as productive as the beginning of the school year. So it is really a win-win change. The gedolim were not looking to add any additional school days for the rabbeim but rather to shift the school calendar so that the talmidim would not have three weeks between the end of camps and the beginning of the school year. To quote from the letter sent out in February (and posted on Yeshiva World):
(https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2169687/unprecedented-torah-umesorah-calls-for-major-changes-to-yeshiva-schedules.html)
“The Roshei Yeshiva are not suggesting that the summer vacation be shortened (that is up to the dynamics of each individual mosad), but rather that the end date of Yeshiva/Bais Yaakov in June should be earlier and that the start date of Yeshivos/Bais Yaakov in August should be earlier when Rosh Chodesh Elul begins in the middle of August.”
I do not understand why any rebbi was surprised by the change. I believe all rabbeim were aware of the possibility and if they had concerns, should have spoken with their menahalim. The letter from Torah Umesorah was sent out in February and that was after there were several weeks of dialogues with yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs. All menahalim have been aware of this impending change for several months. If not, it was really the menahels’ responsibility to communicate the possible calendar change to their rabbeim – it was not Torah Umesorah’s responsibility.
The bottom line is that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, shlita was consulted about this issue extensively, all the details were discussed with him and he said: “It is imperative to have the schools start earlier to prevent the unnecessary extra time between camp and school.”
In fact, Rav Dovid Feinstein, ztl was asked this same question on two occasions. He said, “The calendar change should take place. It is a very good idea – as long as the rabbeim are not asked to work more days over the year.”
Many, many mosdos have headed the call of our gedolim. They have decided to end yeshiva early and start early. Some mosdos are ending only a half a week early but starting a full week early. These mosdos are making up those extra days by giving rabbeim off two or three Fridays over the course of the year. If all mosdos followed suit, rabbeim would not have any complaints.
Out-of-town mosdos have been starting before Labor Day for decades. It is simply the right thing to do.
I think the most important point is: Our mosdos are entrusted in being mechanech our children. What chinuch lesson is learned when the talmidim see that the mosdos don’t listen to our gedolim the Vaad Roshei Yeshiva? What lesson is learned if the mosdos don’t listen to the words of our zkan Rosh HaYeshiva, godol hador Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, shlita. Shame on any yeshiva or Bais Yaakov that does not heed the call of our gedolim.
The change is needed. The change is long overdue. The change is the right thing to do.
This letter may be a sign that the system is overburdened and even a small increase of load cracks up people. Maybe it is simply not sustainable to have schools that produce learners but not enough working parents so that the next generation of B’H big families have enough money in the system to support teachers. This worked early on when working people sent their kids to yeshivos, but not when majority of parents are not in businesses.
@ Ferd – Do u not realize you basicly just quoted The The Eirev Rav, The Misyavnim, & The Haskalah Movement
Has anyone asked the parents what they want?
The Rabbaim and Moros think they have an opinion? They get treated like trash by the big money. It’s what the money decides that’s what goes.
I was listening to a Moradick shiir From Reb
Yonasson Longwood from Baltimore. And he said the harder you push to get your message through the more pain the other side will feel. And it’s Mamish True.
There’s a global pandemic going on and this is what Klal yisroel is worried about? Wake up already.
Discuss the multimillion. Dollar summer homes or the exotic vocations when your family’s up in the mountains and you are working. Mamish and Einfal.
Kids need to start learning at the beginning of Elul. However, this does not mean that yeshivos have to open! I was in camp during Elul quite often and the atmosphere was extremely uplifting, with shiurim etc. Let’s work out something where everyone can stay in place. Perhaps an “Elul day camp” of a sort for a few hours each day. Have rebbeim/moros rotate teaching groups each day so no one gets burnt out, and make groups upstate so it’s manageable. Everyone gets to stay where they are, the rebbeim and moros make money but still get a break, and the kids get to learn. Tuition should be cheaper due to lack ofoverhead. The remaining issue is bussing.
anonymous
the Moros who are getting less: is that in your opinion the Daas Torah?
All the Monsey mosdos start RC Elul for years and years and we were no worse for wear.
Thank you for noticing, Frumwhere!
When I heard this psak, which doesn’t really affect me too much as I live out of town and have always been in my classroom from the end of August, I wondered what was so different about this coming year. I have had years when I taught about the Yomim Noraim in 4 days, and years when I had 4 weeks to do the same. Mechanchim roll with the punches of the calendar, and I would love some statistics to see that kids had any less yiras shomayim because of it.
Our school calendars are based off the public school systems. If all of a sudden that is about to change, high schools in NY will have to see if the students can take Regents in camp.
Meantime, kol hakavod to the writer of the letter for his respectful tone in really cutting to the chase.
First of all I don’t believe the letter writer is a rebbe. Starting yeshiva in August is nothing new Every time Rosh Hashana is the first week of September which is every 2-3 years we start in August. The bussing used to be an issue but now most yeshivos even if they don”t have their own buses get city supplied busing. I’m not sure how it works before Labor Day, but just like parents figure it out Presidents week You can figure it out in August too. The writer writes about getting paid in August. Let me ask him most Yeshivos end around June 20 /21 every year do you ever say I will give back my salary for those days you don’t work in June.? In any case you get paid for 12 months. I have more to say in my next post.
Dear rebbe:
I really understood you being upset and you are 100 percent right but look at some of us Bal Batim…
No winter and spring breaks getting paid. No challenge hamoyed or Erebus Yom Tov getting paid…no Chanukah and pirim tips….no Tosh choydesh tips.. working in a warehouse from עלות השחר till יצאת נשמה.
Coming home Fridays almost close to left tzindin…
We have No gedoyle hador to make our rules… so rebbe you still have it better ther a lot of your parents whos kids you teach…
Enjoy your summer in camp as I will stay home working sweating…
I think Torah Umesorsa made a mistake here. They should have mad e the default day for closing Rosh Chodesh Tammuz and the opening Rosh Chodesh Elul. To much money is invested in summer programs so I don’t believe we can go cold Turkey and cut out the entire summer but it’s not normal that even with a starting date of August 29 our yeshiva students are having 10 weeks thats 70 days of vacation. And even with the many positives of day camps it’s not yeshiva. This has to change.
He is smart to withhold his name as he should be fired. The opinions and the motivation he admits to (we are insulted) are the hepoch of what we expect from a melamed dardeki or any Ben Torah for that matter. They are a perfect embodiment of daas Baal habatim hepoch daas Torah.
Every concern that he raises can and must be addressed but the plan must proceed. As one in chinuch for more than four decades, it is clear to me that the gain to the students of have a proper zman before Tishrei outweigh the inconveniences and challenges he lists by so much that I have to wonder if it was really written by a rebbe at all. If it was, as I began, he is in the wrong business and, no doubt, poisoning you D minds and hearts.
“chash” and “FaceIt”‘ – Great thinking.
So you take a guy with talent and great qualifications to be a Rebbi, encourage and motivate him with spiritual talk how he should go into the field of chinuch, then as his family grows you’re not really there for him, pay lip-service and pennies as “bonuses” when he makes a simcha, and then when he naturally shows the first sign of “bitterness” – you yell him out of his job saying he isn’t holy enough to do the “avodas hakodesh”…
Good job.
and I’m talking from experience.
Just a general rule:
The Gedolim are there for the big picture. They tell us a change has to be made. It’s a מילתא דפשיטא – it goes without saying – that every מנהל implementing this change has to do so carefully, taking into considerations the Rabbaim and parents he has in his school, and not to be a “Bully ברשות התורה” as he just points to the Gedolim’s letter as an excuse (like many mosdos do, with the sentiment evident in some of the comments above…).
Just like when Hashem told Moshe Rabeinu to count the בני לוי, he didn’t just walk into every tent and blindly do what Hashem said, rather he said “How can I do this? How can I walk in their tents to see how many babies they have?” and then Hashem told him how it could be done in a delicate manner. He didn’t say to himself “Who am I to be frumer than Hashem?” but rather when Hashem says to do something it is self-understood that the implementation must be done delicately with every consideration.
Unfortunately, some of our school owners and directors do not understand this.
I don’t know I agree with all this writer is writing, but the fact that Gevirim control gedolim is a problem…
And the idea that we created a new moetzes gedolei hatorah is also a chidush, in my humble opinion.
Torah Umesorah was created b Rav Shraga Feivel Zatza”l to address the need for OOT day schools (then they went to created school supplies and posters).
This type of decision must have the signature of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah.
>>> especially if the driving force behind this decision was one or two Baalei Batim. If they are going to listen to Baalei Batim
Quite ironic that a guy complaining (incorrectly if I may add) about them listening to Baalei Batim would be turning to an online forum to drum up support. Who does he think is in this conversation? Talmidey Chachomim and fellow mechanichim or at BEST Baalei Batim.
On a personal note to the letter writer, perhaps you should consider another job . You are clearly very insecure about keeping your job if you had to voice your complaints online to people who can’t help you rather than discussing this with the menehal of the Yeshiva you work in. You keep talking about how overstressed you are. Maybe Chinuch is not for you
Reading this comment section makes it very clear that the general public and parents are in for a rude awakening.
I am involved in hiring teachers and Rebbeim for a large Brooklyn yeshiva. I recruit, research and ultimately end up as the ‘HR’ guy that people talk to on their way out.
People do not want to teach anymore.
1) Rebbeim start out in Brooklyn where finding a Rebbi job is easier than elsewhere – we are already not producing many ‘hometown’ Rebbeim. Once they have 2-3 years of experience they are offered jobs elsewhere in the tristate area where the pay is better and where living, while potentially just as costly, is more pleasant. Essentially, over the past 5 years, about two thirds of our student body has had an inexperienced Rebbi. (I haven’t yet gotten to the teachers…) While most are talented and giving, they lack the experience necessary to identify children’s underlying academic challenges and to artfully discipline or remediate. This leads to years of children “falling through the cracks”, when crucial interventions should have been attempted and exponential progress could have been made. I’m also hearing from Rebbeim who have left Brooklyn that parents elsewhere are more supportive and appreciative.
(Maybe it’s because we have failed the boys who are now the fathers of our students, while the men elsewhere experienced a more pleasant yeshiva life themselves… just speculation.)
In short, Rebbeim aren’t sticking around and your children are suffering.
2) Women and girls aren’t choosing teaching anymore. Getting a degree in one of the “kosher fields” is almost effortless. The girls who we once hired as teachers are working for agencies as P3 providers for upwards of 3 times the pay, per hour. Those who once started out as assistants are instead working as Title I teachers for double what the yeshiva can afford. (And many are going into corporate work for a steady salary with no headache, no take-home work, and no ever-complaining parents to contend with.) We literally cannot find teachers, let alone qualified teachers with experience. And this is before we talk salary. When one of my (only moderately experienced) teachers signed elsewhere this year for a ten thousand dollar difference, I brought up the idea of larger raises to the administrator. He was full of contempt for the idea.
Bottom line – the prevailing attitude is that teachers are easily replaceable with the next influx of seminary girls. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case anymore. Our inability to prioritize our children’s education is leading to the inexplicable diminishment of their academic achievement. We don’t value our teachers and, because of that, our children are suffering.
Finally, you can’t bonus pay and chasdei lev away all the negativity that parents approach this issue with. You also can’t “money away” the contempt some parents have for the Rebbeim and teachers. This is a much bigger issue, but for another forum.
Teachers have always been overworked and underpaid. A Rebbi or teacher cannot walk into a classroom without hours of preparation. The inability of many to acknowledge this fact is going to diminish the quality of their own childrens’ education to a point of no return. This is a lesson you’re choosing to learn the hard way.
Bottom line is, if there isn’t a major attitude shift and an attempt to pay Rebbeim and teachers adequately, you will HAVE NO TEACHERS in a few years time.
I realized that I allowed my last comment to turn into another one of those “Rebbeim and teachers don’t get paid enough.” comments.
The long and short of the issue is that we cannot fill positions.
The primary reasons being:
1) The amount of work required outside of the job in order to actually do the job.
2) The inadequate pay for the amount of time expended and the workload.
and, what I think is driving the vast majority of people away from this profession:
3) The lack of respect, sometimes outright contempt, towards these individuals who treat your children like their own. This, in whatever capacity. Whether it be deciding that the school year is going to be extended without consulting them, or whether it be badmouthing them to your child (or the board) for the slightest (rightful, I only support rightful and kind…) disciplinary measure.
Parents, the ball is in your court.
Essentially,
@MDShweks
First of all, you dont know me (i love anonymity) but my wife knows yours so careful on the critique! 🙂
Second your post bolsters my point, no one should be going into chinuch because he was “encouraged and motivated” to do so. YOU decided they were motivating you, but they WERENT! They were motivating those who are up for the task, and many peoples circumstance isnt there.
Dont blame the people who sound the clarion call for this avodas hakodesh just because you learned of YOUR limitations!
But the main point is this.
How DARE people say “the gedolim dont know whats going on” the gedolim, or they are there for “general guidance”!?
How dare you claim that a menahel oppose the ruling of the “einei ha’eidah”!?
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HOW DARE ONE ACCUSE THE WISEST PEOPLE OF OUR GENERATION OF NOT HAVING CONSIDERED THE MATTER FULLY, HEARING STORIES AND OPINIONS FROM ALL SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM?!
Just because YOU havent been called DOES NOT MEAN that there werent MULTIPLE rebbeim spoken to about this matter, with ALL concerns including summer work, and vacation days, taken into account.
THAT is INEXCUSABLE!
The three dormant weeks between camp and the start of the schoolyear should have been dealt with through the communal rabbis. Both here and in Israel, the community shul has been relegated to a secondary role in favor of the central adult yeshiva. This was NEVER the case in Europe before the War.
Instead of blithely turning everyone’s schedules upside-down and effectively humiliating the mechanchim, it would have made more sense to organize a full-time learning program at every shul or shtiebel where the families of these children are members for the duration of the gap between camp and school.
Are people forgetting that Torah Umesorah has a “Rabbinical Board” consisting of the Roshei Yeshiva of some of the largest Yeshivos on the east coast? Why the rush to assume this was a decision made without daas torah, pushed by a few baalei batim? As an employee, I get where the rebbe is coming from, but, some of the innuendo seems more sour grapes than anything else.
LITVOCK! How about a little hakaras ha tov for the mechanchim who take care of YOUR children day in day out ? How in the world can you compare their Avodah to yours??? Besides they don’t make half of your salary! They are under paid and unappreciated! No wonder tye children don’t have Derech eretz anymore! It’s the fault of the parents ! This is what they hear at home ! Shame !
A bit confused
So you accept Daas Torah only when it doesn’t affect you?
To answer your questions:
Is the Yeshiva I am employed in going to increase my salary for an extra week of work? ”
Hopefully not
Few jobs give off all yomim tovinm plus extra days before Sukkos and PEsach plus 10 weeks in the summer.
Ok so you only get 9 weeks int eh summer. Boo hoo cry me a river.
“Will yeshivas increase the tuitions for parents due to an extra week and a half of Yeshiva?”
Hopefully not. PArents are already being nickle and dimed
“Do these Baalei batim who have never in their lives driven a child to Yeshiva know that there is no bussing for most schools, since it is before Labor Day? ”
Not sure why you think they’ve never driven a child . And this question highlights how disconected yo uare. You think it isis easier for working parents to have their kids at home than to do carpool?????
“Do the people who made this decision understand that nearly every single one of us work all summer both days and night to make ends meet, and we literally had this week and a half between camp ending and yeshiva starting to get ourselves together so we don’t walk into a classroom looking and feeling like a “Shmata”? ”
Yes. Newsflash having off in the summer isnt a real thing. Grow up. Its nice that you have a more relxed summer wit hfewer hours (if any at all) most working parents dont get this
“Don’t you think our employers should have the decency to talk to us first? ”
Nah this is long over due
The ridiculous number of days off before Pesach/Sukkos are hopefully next
The biggest problem is that our schools are not synchronized with each other. Having kids in elementary and high school (boys and girls) schools, every single place has a different schedule. So by the time we can find some days in common between all the schools ending and camps starting it can drive anyone bunkers.
If all the schools would start on the same day and end on the same day then there would be less problems for everyone.
(I’m not even going to mention that chassidish and litvish schedule differences)
In addition to Shabbos, Yom tov and chol hamoed, boys cheder Zichru Toras Moshe gives off 6 days: erev Yom Kippur, erev Sukkos, 2 days Purim, and erev Pessach, 9-av, plus 2 weeks in the summer/av. (Some kids go to daycamps then, 2 sessions, 1 week each)
The boys love school and would rather have 0 days off.
I Have been reading all the comments with interest. I have been hesitating to comment here but I feel this has gotten to a point where People need to be informed. A real problem that could have been easily resolved without turning the world upside down has been hijacked by well meaning though not fully honest or transparent individuals. To some degree everyone commenting here is correct. Nothing is exactly as it seems. Here is what you may not be aware of.
1- While changing the calendar this has been an ongoing discussion for sometime, it was on ice up until a few weeks ago (ie nobody thought it would go forward) as there was NO consensus.
2- There still is no consensus. How do I know? Because I am a faculty member of a Yeshiva and we are not nor have we ever been on board. Why? For many of the reasons outlined in the Rebbe’s letter and various comments.
3- Is to much time off unhealthy? YES. Going straight from Yeshiva to the camp bus as many of our Talmidim will do this year, EVEN MORE UNHEALTHY.
4- Does The Calendar need a fix? With the limited exception of a a few years here and there in a 100 year period, Not really. In deference to those that feel we need shorter breaks between Camp & Yeshiva, I do hear that. As was said at one of The meetings about this but to deaf ears, THIS IS A CAMP PROBLEM NOT A YESHIVA CALENDAR PROBLEM. If Camps started a week after Yeshiva ended we would not have this problem because the 3 weeks less a day or two after camp would be shifted to one week after Yeshiva and 10 days or so after Camp. Perhaps Those who are trying to pressure us to conform should tell The Camp’s what to do and not the other way around.
5- To the Various comments about Yeshivas in Lakewood and others and how little time they have off, Its not my place to opine as to whether they are doing it right or wrong. I am certain the parents in those Yeshivos are well aware of the Yeshiva’s schedule and have decided that is what they want for their families, Tavo Aleihim Bracha. My Yeshiva caters to people in Flatbush. They don’t want that for their children. My Parent Body goes to the mountains (not the beaches as one commenter suggested). Yes the parents work all week and don’t get time off as another commenter suggested. BUT Many of them do look forward to their weekends upstate especially July 4 & Labor Day when they are off form work and don’t have to rush back to the city. This initiative is taking away their much needed break form the office (nobody asked them and they pay the bills.) In addition, the end of summer weekend is when the children are already back from camp and can all spend time with their parents upstate as opposed to July 4 when they are always already in camp. (Labor Day) while not a Yiddishe thing, is a reality. We live in a goyishe country and like it or not, our work calendar centers around theirs. Many of the parents in our Yeshiva have to use days off for Yom Tov, so the Legal Holidays are an important fact of life. I respect that others feel differently. That’s fine. In Your Kehilos and Yeshivos Please do what is good for you. That’s why you do not live in Flatbush and probably do not send to My Yeshiva.
6- While this effort was presented as done with Daas Torah that is not entirely accurate. We all know its about how a question is presented or asked that very often determines the outcome.
The Question: Rosh Yeshiva, there is a 3 week break after Camp to Yeshiva starting. We feel that it is not healthy. Does The Rosh Yeshiva Feel we should leave it alone or perhaps we should start yeshiva earlier?
The Rosh Yeshivas Answer: Yes It’s Your Achrayus you can’t allow this hefkerus its not healthy for the Talmidim start Yeshiva earlier.
The way The Question Should have been asked: Rosh Yeshiva there is a 3 week break after Camp to Yeshiva starting BECAUSE camps are starting the day after yeshiva ends as opposed to 4-7 days after. The Rosh Yeshiva should also know that we were supposed to end Yeshiva Thursday June 22. However The Camps INSISTED on starting on June 22 (the day Yeshiva was to end)and so we had no choice but to change the last day of Yeshiva essentially taking away 2 days of Yeshiva!!! Perhaps The Rosh Yeshiva can tell the camps that they have to start later its not healthy for our Talmidim to go from Yeshiva to camp and because of that have 3 weeks off before Yeshiva starts.
Answer: “THIS QUESTION WAS NOT ASKED SO I WONT SPECULATE AS TO WHAT ANSWER THE ROSH YESHIVA WOULD HAVE GIVEN”
Nobody is Chas Vishalom speaking against any Rosh Yeshiva or Gadol Bitorah that supports this effort. However, anyone who wants to be objective can see where the problem is and understand that those who wanted this effort were easily able to manipulate the situation.
This effort is being driven by 2 summer camps that while they have the best interests of The Talmidim in mind, they are taking a very selfish limited 8 week view of the world verses Us Yeshivos that have 10 Months we are responsible for. Daas Torah was selectively consulted and only some of the issues arising out of this proposed change were actually shared with Our Roshai Yeshivos. I also want to state that I know there is a Yeshiva in our neighborhood that wants this change and Their Rosh Yeshiva supports it. It is not my place to argue or even speak for that Yeshiva or even against that Heiligeh Rosh Yeshiva. But he is The Rosh Yeshiva for His Yeshiva Not for our Yeshiva.
During this process, there was also participation by Chashuva members of The Chinuch Community in the Five Towns. With extreme respect to them, they give their Talmidim including High School Bachurim, a full week of Mid Winter Vacation. In our Yeshiva we do not!!
In case you were wondering, the reason that camps suddenly have to start early is, want to end by Rosh Chodesh Elul so the counselors who are the ones that are Mashpia on the Boys in camp can get back to Yeshiva. Many of the wonderful High School Bachurim in Our Yeshiva are going to be Jr Counselors in camps. I am confident that by the last week of an 8 week summer the Jr Counselor is able to cover a few days on their own or with the assistance of another Jr Staff Member so the older Bachur can leave a few days early and be in The Bais Medrash For Rosh Chodesh Elul.
There has already been enough chaos created by this effort of a well intentioned but self interested few to control the many. Our Yeshiva is doing its best to navigate these waters and will not make any drastic changes for right now. Come next Year, we will be advising Our Parents which camps NOT to send their children too. We will not let the Chinuch with which we have been entrusted to be compromised and controlled by For Profit Camps.
Wishing Everyone a Gezunten Zummer.
“In case you were wondering, the reason that camps suddenly have to start early is, want to end by Rosh Chodesh Elul so the counselors who are the ones that are Mashpia on the Boys in camp can get back to Yeshiva.”
These very same Yeshivos dont end the third week of June, ever. Where are the counselors for the beginning of the summer coming from? Im aware of a sleepaway camp that will take just about anyone with a pulse and who puts on tefillin as a counselor for the “1st half” of the summer since they are desperate for staff.