I was pleasantly surprised upon recently seeing an ad dedicated to bnos melech – frum Jewish girls and women – exhorting them to be more careful in the area of tznius.
The ad, placed in a widely read Jewish paper, had a simple message: don’t wear a cross-body bag when you’re not wearing a coat or jacket. Doing so can unnecessarily delineate certain body parts that are attractive to men, putting them in serious danger of being nichshol.
Fighting back against even innocuous instances of pseudo-pritzus is to be applauded. However, I was also left troubled.
My concern is not with the ad, but rather in the fact that similar advertisements aimed at boys and men simply don’t exist. And they should.
I understand that we live in a mostly insular world where only certain taavos are recognized and acknowledged. But we have to face reality. Women can be nichshol too, and particularly with the daf yomi cycle currently holding in Meseches Sotah, I believe there is no better time than now to shine a light on this worrisome reality.
There are certain male body features that can be a michshol for women and yet we see no communal push to safeguard our Bnos Yisroel from these.
For instance, it is well known that large muscular arms are attractive. Yet there is never a word uttered against men wearing short-sleeved shirts. The same goes for a muscular chest, but again, we see no pushback against men who keep their shirt’s upper area unbuttoned.
Most concerning to me is that ridiculously tight pants have somehow become in vogue. I don’t need to elaborate, but is this not something to be concerned about?
Yes, women should be careful about tznius. But so should men. And it’s high time we took this matter seriously as a klal. Bnei Melech need guidelines too.
Name withheld upon request.
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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45 Responses
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 And it’s not even adar yet
This sounds like a joke. We have to stop strong men from wearing short sleeves to avoid women being nichshol? Nichshol in what exactly? Only men have an issur of hirhurim.
The timing of this is great though because Mosaica Press just released a new sefer on tsnius for MEN and women, called Dignity Reclaimed. Looks great. Hashkafa and halacha.
Agree with author, everyone could do with more tznius, especially in this environment. The ads on the subway are worse than ever.
Is the writer a comedian or a moron?
Haaaaaaaaa love this. So tired of only women getting ragged on. And it made me laugh out loud too, best way to start a Thursday. Thanks for printing!
There’s nowhere in the Torah that says that women should or shouldn’t dress a certain way so that “men shouldn’t be nichshol” . In fact a woman is allowed to make bracho when fully clothed, unlike a man.
Rather, women dress modestly because Hatznea Leches Im Elokecha – which applies equally to men. And since all people are exhorted to be modest, a woman should be modest even men aren’t present.
The concept of lifnei ever lo seitein michshol means that women should respect a man’s nisyonos but at the end of the day, the responsibility is on the man not on the woman.
The writer’s letter is amazingly well done and long overdue! Me his effort be blessed from Shamayim and may his efforts bear the hoped results. Across the body bags on women bothered me for the longest time and more recently, the new style men clothing the second skin type clothing, is just as repulsive.
Guidelines for men seem to me like a good idea – I’d encourage you to ask a rav about proper standards and publish the standards that he espouses in the format of your choice. I personally found that my wife’s tznius strengthened when I strengthened my own tznius both in the way I dress and the way I interact with people.
A small detail, but here is one cynical comment that I would object to – “a mostly insular world where only certain taavos are recognized and acknowledged”. This isn’t related to insularity (as the world around us is not on a moral level in which they even think about these topics, and there is barely any conception of tznius in the surrounding society – in fact the opposite is valued by most, and I say this having grown up secular..). And I don’t think such things are “not acknowledged” either. I think they’re lower priority since the common conversation will only fit a certain amount of content and can never cover everything. It covers the main ways people are machshil down to the pratim, and the general concepts more in bigger-picture discussions. But there is always room for more pratim as you mention, and I think this is a good idea. Many people think about these things for sure including myself, and I personally haven’t seen the b’nei Torah that I know dressed in inappropriate ways. This among loads of other zechusim represent the community that I observe daily.
I think it is wonderful that you’ve identified a topic that can be more thoroughly addressed, and I wish you luck in preparing guidelines. B’hatzlacha!
This so-called article is clearly and openly sarcastic.
This article is openly mocking Tznius by, among other offenses, referring to Tznius as “innocuous instances of pseudo-pritzus”.
Of course, the same issue is NOT nearly applicable in the vice-versa sense this maskil writer mockingly plays.
And, most importantly, as the Vilna Gaon and others point out the equivelent to Tznius for men is to learn Torah.
What Torah learning is for men, Tznius is for women
The author has a great point. as seen by the “Laitzim” who are poking fun. Shame on them!!
The most important thing
Is how we interact with the opposite gender
Calling by the first name , texting etc
Those bike for Chai shorts that are literally a second skin are disgusting…wondering why no one mentioned those…
@ARS – then don’t go biking or watch them go biking since it seems like you have an issue. What do you expect them to wear? A suit, tie and hat perhaps??
Whether or not you agree with the message, that was pretty good. Well done.
By the way … there are good videos these days from vayimaen . It is good chizuk videos about watching your eyes. Check out the videos
I think the only ones qualified to discuss if hirhurim are an issue for women and seeing this things are triggers are the women. When making a comment, please state which side of the mechitza you stand on.
I had to look up what a cross body bag is, I’m not sure I understand the issue exactly, however, for a woman to wear a purse over her shoulder is exposing herself to getting robbed, as opposed to wearing is across the body.
As a man, if I have a problem looking at women’s body parts, it’s my problem.
Besides, it’s just a body part, and it’s under clothing. We really need to chill a little.
Klal Yisroel has sadly suffered tragedies for years. And when we peruse history, the public typically seeks ways to intervene to stop the troubles and to prevent them. That is part and parcel of who Klal Yisroel is. Generations ago, the frequent issues raised by our leaders that required chizuk and tikun were Limud Hatorah, Kashrus, Tefiloh, not talking during davening, lashon horah, and bein odom lachaveiroh, among others. We witness today a similar thirst for direction. Only occasionally do we hear about most of the above. We hear mostly about tznius. Even the Kinus about technology gave little to no attention to the issues of lashon horah, bitul Torah, bitul zman, addiction, or any of the many ills that are related to technology. It was all about tznius. That is a real issue, but the absence of reference to the others was glaring.
The directions provided by Gedolei Yisroel are not silly, nor are they trivial. But they often do not resonate with the public. We may hear of a horrible act of terror. Should we connect the dots to tznius? Why are we consistently pointing fingers at the women? There is much more to be said for the tikkunim needed in Klal Yisroel. There is the proliferation of indulgence in gashmiyus. There is rampant taavos in food, luxuries, vacations, etc. The values that have become normalized in our circles would be foreign to the overwhelming majority of the population of just 50 years ago.
As far as the point of the poster, it is widely known that women are less prone to the taavos related to vision. Men are far more prone to be influenced and triggered by what they see. But we would do ourselves much good in realizing that tznius is more than just the choices of clothing. הצנע לכת is not about attire but about behavior. We need to identify much more to repair and strengthen than just the clothing we wear.
@outoftownjew
I’ve seen people wearing Leggings with loose shorts on top. Voila. Problem solved
Oh my god world class troll right here. Few days late for April Fools but whatever. How does YWN not pick up on this? How’d this clown fool y’all?
🤣🤣🤣
To UJM,
There is no such Vilna Gaon!
If you can find it, please share
@Chasid: “As a man, if I have a problem looking at women’s body parts, it’s my problem.”
The gemara on todays daf (sotah chad beis) disagrees with you. But thats ok in todays world when everyone is entitled to their “own truth” and to “feel good”.
Too many yidden with too much time on their hands.
If you agree that “only men have an issur of hirhurim”, than by definition, no need to worry about women going OTD in terms of their marriages because of yearnings that some ehrliche yiddeshe men are willing to deny. All this musar on Tzinus that shows up on YWN should be taken in the context of the baalei musar feeling its ok engage on these issue through internet social media. The vast majority of men are NOT going to be nichshol because some women is wearing a “cross body bag” on a hot, humid summer day any more than most women will not have hormone issues if they notice some yungerman walking by in a short sleeve shirt.
Yes, we should worry about one another but not to the extent some here would suggest is necessary.
women are not like men they get attracted to men who take care of them thats why they like men who give them things and are looked on as strong providers.
This must have been written by a man. If he were a woman, he’d know that for us women, tight, etc. clothes on men is not a michshol – it’s disgusting.
I don’t know if this was written by a man or a woman but it definitely seems like the writer is very offended by this “Bnos Melachim” ad.
I’m just wondering if the writer is just as personally offended to learn that people eat hechsherim that writer wouldn’t, or that people have a different bedtime routine with their kids, or perhaps, have different standards when it comes to organization and housekeeping.
Believe it or not, some people really like these guidelines. Some people really enjoy being told what to wear and how to think and what to believe. Others don’t like it. If you don’t like it then you are not the demographic for that ad.
Just as it is okay to not want to shop in that store because you didn’t like the outfit featured in the ad, and just like it is okay to turn the page when they advertise law or other services for a problem that you hope to never have, it is also okay to turn the page when the standard of religiosity is foreign to you.
Clothing men wear is not nichshul women, lol. As the commenter Rivvy pointed out, tight clothing on men is simply disgusting. It is chikas hagoy. Also, men wearing short sleeves is absolutely nothing wrong, the zeides used to wear short sleeved shorts years ago… I wear a crossbody and cannot believe that someone would have issues with that as opposed to long, long pritzusdige wigs, tight, revealing clothing and other revealing and untznius clothing.
Silly letter: but you do make a good point about tight pants. It’s all the rage. 75% of the men in shul have pants that look painted on, and barely go to the ankle. I understand that it’s difficult to find pants these days that aren’t super tight, but the guys look clownish. Pants that look ready to burst while wearing the brightest color socks….is this the he circus?
@ujm:
The gaon did not say that. Furthermore, Torah study for men is supposed to be a constant endeavor. Tznius is a middah, and constantly focusing on one niddah (except for not getting angry) is not good. Finally, and most importantly, please explain to me how rigorous engagement with the words of Hashem, learning and using your mind are in any way equivalent to the relatively mindless act of getting dressed?? That is disrespectful to women. We are more than what we wear.
zaltzvasser,
You hit it on the head. Joseph believes women are mindless creatures whose entire purpose is to serve men.
Does YWN have Da’as Torah? What would they say about this post?
@ interjection
You sound like you’re into some weird stuff. Being told what to wear.
I heard that financial stability is attractive to women more than tight pants. Therefore, men who are not in shiduchim right now should avoid driving sport cars, wearing Swiss watches and powerties, and using Apple iPhones
My favorite part about this is how some are certain that the letter is a sarcastic joke and others (who see it as serious) are cheering it on
I worry about the guys that always crying about priztkus and tznius usually it’s a good tell somebody is having issues,
I’m really worried about the guy that wrote this article might be struggling with some issues 😂
Zaltzvassrr, he did say that, just the inverse.
Men have amailus by learning. Women have amailus by tznius.
So I know I’ve been gone for some time but….WHERES POPPA BAR ABBA??
Wolfish musings?
Zeeskite?
Iamjoseph ?
Coffee addict?
@sam33
Wrong. These monolithic rules seem to me to be cultish. I actually think that the type of people who try to control others probably have a bit of a personality disorder.
On the other hand, some people get pleasure in obsessing about this stuff. I even know people like that. They think that by wearing this or that fabric that they are bringing the Geula. Either they’re right or they’re wrong but either way, it’s harmless to my life. Worst case they won’t be meshadech with my children which is no harm done because we probably wouldn’t have much in common anyway.
Just like I tolerate others who have different beliefs about what makes up a fun family outing, I also tolerate others who have different beliefs about Judaism.
Frum men don’t go outside without a hat and jacket. Even a short jacket is a bedieved.
And the shirt should be buttoned on top, certainly the second button.
This article is not nogea to frum ppl. If it is, then he’s 100% correct!
Always_Ask_Questions – Both men and Women should avoid being ostentatious. (nothing to do with attracting the other gender) (as far as iPhones that’s another shmuess) I know of a billionaire that drives a simple car and makes standard chassunas. There are many peoples that are quite wealthy and yet you would never know it by the way they live. I’m not saying that the examples you gave are too much necessarily. I’m just building on your point. Often, anyway, people like to show off and there isn’t much behind it.
Ohrchadash1: “There’s nowhere in the Torah that says that women should or shouldn’t dress a certain way so that “men shouldn’t be nichshol” . In fact a woman is allowed to make bracho when fully clothed, unlike a man.”
Excuse me, but you clearly haven’t learned much of Shas, as there are many places in the Gemara where it says that women should be concerned with this. Not only that “afilu daf yomi lo limadita”. There is clearly an example of this on our daf Sotah 22a.
Please take some responsibility before making these “there is nowhere in the Torah” type claims.
This is not a joke but it is unfortunately also contradictory to the Gemora.
We know that looking at things before procreation impacts the looks of the baby, as we learn from Yaakov Avinu and the sheep.
Rebbe Yochanon was very beautiful as we know from the incident with Reish Lokish by the river Yardein. And Rebbe Yochanon would deliberately sit by the mikvah so women coming out would see him and have beautiful children. I believe Yosef Hatzaddik also did so but I don’t remember the source.
“Frum men don’t go outside without a hat and jacket.”
And “Frum men” don’t post comments on news blogs
By the men, EVERYTHING is controlled. A frum man can’t ever wear a t shirt or polo shirt or even short sleeves or open buttons.
Even the colors and exact type of clothing is VERY specific.
Men don’t need guidelines because they can’t wear ANYTHING but the EXACT type.
Women can wear anything they like, that’s why need guidelines
Bath Toy,
Please provide a specific Halachic source for each one of your insane restrictions on men’s clothing.