65 Responses

1. nice idea, it’ll never work. Lakewood is not a shtetl and should not be treated as one. Sure we all need chizuk and plenty should be given, but a Vaad Hatznius?!?!? Look around at any other frum community and you’ll understand why lakewood is the premier makom torah in the US

2. Hey Kruka Plantcha I just came not to long ago from this asifa and it was an ultimate kiddush hashem of how people in lakewood care of how we and our wife act- As R’ Wachsman said ‘Tznius is not just begodim its a way of life’ So thank u for being critical and with out daas torah u have nothing!

3. is there a recording available of this asifa?

4. EVERY city should establish a Vaad HaTznius.

   What a wonderful idea!

5. a vaad hatznius great idea i hope it works

   so someone will tell people who are clueless about the basics of tzniuse were they are going wrong

   its about time

6. #2 with all due respect, coming from such a kiddush hashem, you should speak to people properly. I dont think its right to use what you believe is your superior trust in gedolim to put people down.

7. First work on MIDDOS TOVOS… become a mentsh love your fellow Jew… DERECH ERETZ KODMO LTORAH

8. #2. “The Legacy” – Can you give a summary of what was spoken there?

   #4 “Joseph” – I wish I could agree with you, but my experiences state otherwise. Usually many of those that become part of the Vaad HaZnius are not people that are L’Shem Shamiyim, but rather narrow minded people that found a way to rule over (boss over might be a better word) others in a “KOSHER” way.

   Basically they are Wolves in Sheep’s clothing. 🙁

   The way for us to battle the problem of tznius (Lfi Anius Daatei) is to:

   1) look at ourselves first and do our own teshuva (if we are complaining that women are not dressing and acting tznius and yet we are looking and talking a WEEE TOOO much with our best friend’s wife then we are being a little hypocritical, don’t you think?)

   2) Contemplate on why Hashem wants us to be tznius. Is it only in order to prevent immoral behavior? Is the reason why Hashem wants women to dress tznius is only in order that men don’t sin?

   Perhaps we are a reflection of Hashem (B’zelem Elokim…). Perhaps by being tznius “we are acting like Hashem and if so we draw closer to him by doing so”. Imagine teaching our daughter that instead of “THE SLEEVES TILL HERE, THE SKIRTS TILL HERE, AND NO TALKING TO BOYS… WHY?…BECAUSE HASHEM SAYS SO!!!! NOW SHUT UP AND DO AS YOU ARE TOLD!!!!” (of course, a bit of an exaggeration, but ask Bais Yaakov girls and see how many don’t think that this is so far off the mark)

   3) Perhaps we are not focusing correctly on what the real problem is. Perhaps we are teaching our kids to “LEARN TORAH AND DO MITZVOS!!!!” (So what’s so wrong with that?)

   Instead of focusing on that slogan, perhaps this would be more affective, “MAKE SURE THAT ALL YOUR THOUGHTS, WORDS, AND ACTIONS ARE FOCUSED ON ONE THING, TO BE MIDABEK TO HASHEM TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY!!” This, I believe would have a more profound affect on us than the prior and we most likely would become a much more holier nation, BE”H! Thus, things like tznius mimeileh wont be a problem.

   May Hashem guide us along the proper path!

9. Is there a recording available?

10. To all previous posters:

    How many of your comments are based on discussions you had on this issue with a Rav, Posek, Rosh Yeshivah, Rebbe, before you commented? Talmidei chachomim are called “tznu’im” in the language of Chazal. Even if they don’t know everything . . . if your tooth hurts, you go to a dentist. That there is a problem in our community is clear. We must go to the tznu’im for the cure.

11. destroy/#8, I’d rather help other towns establish this vital function than somewhere they are already blessed with it.

    Softwords, What ”experiance” do you speak of? This CAN (and should) be done properly. It is wonderful and helps establish a proper mindset and environment. And it works beutifully.

12. I don’t understand comments as those from #1. If our gedolei Yisroel, and all listed speakers are definitely reckoned as such, think that it is a good idea, how on earth can anyone else, unlike godol meihem bechochmo ubeminyan, argue?

13. to #9.so why didnt you go and get up there to say your “anious dati”?

14. I agree with #9! My wife has a playgroup in Lakewood and when the weather is nice she takes the kids outside. The property is surrounded with trees/bushes and is pretty discreet. Yet a Yeshiva man (dressed like one at least) passed by and said to my wife “you are a bad example to our children” allegedly for tznius reasons. My question is to Mr. holier than thou “what business do you have looking in to somebody elses back yard?” And why are you talking to an eishes ish? If you are truly motivated leshem shamayim contact the husband and discuss your concerns with him if you have the guts! I believe the Asifa is a bekovodike way to spread awareness of the tznius issue but certainly not for certain yechidim to decide to be the tznius police, we are not in Iran! If these yechidim are going out of their way to look at women in order to see if they are dressed appropriately “zeh omer dorsheini”!

15. to #8.. see rambam hilchos yom tov perek 6 halocho 21.. the rambam was way before kiryas yoel, and that halacha is from de gemmorah which was way before rambam..and that …

16. instead of re-posting regarding this issue, .postings are already at this link.. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius

17. Regardeless if you think that a vaad hatznius is important or not, the fact that three thousand people came together to hear divrei chizuk and show kavod hatorah is amazing in and of itself.
    There is absolutely no room for giving your own advice on what the gedolei harabbonim should do and what REALLY works.
    Laitzana achas docheh meah tochachos means undermining questioning or saying one comment that disapproves or minimizes what the gedolim spent hours thinking about and preparing.
    Do you think that your two second fleeting thought has more validity than that of a person who is noseh beol im chaveiro 24/7?
    Let us focus on what we can gain from listening to the einei haedah and not live an unhappy and negative life.

18. Discussing a Tznius Asifa here on the internet…
    Makes you wonder a bit, no?
    Gives new meaning to ‘tznius starts in the home’
    For what its worth, I think a ‘Vaad Hatznius’ is a great idea. Yes, its possible those involved might be less than perfect. So what? What I see walking around masquerading as ‘frum’ is an abomination. I’ll take my chances with those who would at least try to do something about it.
    I’ve been to Kiryas Yoel plenty of times. Lots not to like and a place I could never live in.
    But the tznius there ? I’ll take it over Lakewood any day.

19. Dear Softthinker:

    I think you should be the main speaker at the next Asifa, instead of Rav Kamenestsky, Rav Wachsman, Rav Kotler, and Rav Solomon.

20. Please excuse my ignorance, but what does a vaa’d hatznius do, and will they do anything about the non-jews in Lakewood or only the Yidden?

21. i hope such a thing will be in bp but to all you pepole who are negetive i have to say 2 things
    #1 oif der ganev brent does hitel!!
    #2 the yidden came out frome mitzriyim
    becouse shelo shinu malbishome!!

22. to #21 they’ll do only to those who are b’gader “arvous”..and if you dont know what that means see mesechtas soite un the sigyoh of “kol yisroel areivim zeh l’zeh…

23. To Neve Aliza:

    Uniforms are a great idea. They instantly identify the wearer as a member of a designated group. No one can be a show-off, since all are alike, and–perhaps–this will be a possible solution to the Tznius problem.

24. They have also been posted on Kol Haloshon
    (718) 906-6400

    Press 1 for English
    Press 8 for Special Topics
    Press 12 for the Tznius Asifa

    We also have many shiurim on the 3 weeks and for Tisha B’Av listening

25. anyway to download these recordings?

26. Husband wasn’t able to make it last night but looking forward to the women’s asifa sun night. This sounds like a great idea to me!

27. 25, etc.: Do you think if the shevatim were crossing the Yam Suf now they would go in one path, or twelve? We must leave some room for individuality and creativity, in all areas.

28. I would like to add my two cents to this posting. People nowadays have no idea what tznius is. They focus on the outside (clothing) and dont realize that tznius is a way of life. I was driving by in a certain neighborhood full of Kollel youngerman (I was one until last year and have started working) and one of them asks me as I get out of my car, “Hey business must be good, how do you afford your car”. My car isnt super fancy, yes its new (I had my old car till it was 14 years old) and I have leased it. I could not believe my ears. The other guys who were standing there, looked down from embarassement. However, from living in that neighborhood previously I was not surprised at the nosy attitude and complete lack of tznius. These was a Kollel Guy!!!! Don’t get me wrong, I am proud to have been one myself but there is a complete lack of tznius when it comes to butting into others business. Maybe they should make a tznius vaad for that! Instead of focusing all day on the length of this and the sheitel that. Keep your eyes on your own and stop looking at everyone else. The same was true when I bought a house (after many many years in an apartment and I got my car 3 months later) two guys in shul come over to me and ask “Hey buddy, did you win the lottery or something? things seem to be going well for you, huh?” RIDICULOUS. PATHETIC. ALL TOO COMMON unfortunately. This nonsense needs to stop and people need to mind their own business. Although me telling this on this site (which is full of curious people who like to give their opinions even on matters which they are not fit too) is like telling child not to eat candy. Anyways those are my two cents, my rant if you will. Take it or leave it, but one thing is for sure, these ASIFAS and these forums are not going to change a blasted thing. Go home and be a good jew there, and teach you kids proper middos and a proper approach to life.

29. deep & aliza
    Personally hate the idea of a uniform, whats comfy, casual, clean and kavodick for me may not work for you. It will also close down every girls and womens clothing store, u ready to ruin all those parnosa?
    Tried listening to the videos, were not working, did the asifa cover tzinuus in materialism, homes, vacations, simchah etc. What were the tzinuus guide lines for the men? (or was it just watch the females in your life)

30. Normally I quote others that I want to comment to, but this time there are too many so I’ll try to respond in general terms.

    1. There are already Vaad Hatziuses here in Eretz HaKodesh. Their main emphases are on separation on the buses (which of course is a good thing, but…). I remember when they wanted separate buses for men and women (no joke). It didn’t pull over well, so they refocused on men in the front, women in the back. This too is not a bad thing.

    The problem is how the go about it. They one, POST SIGNS THAT ARE WRITTEN IN SHARP PRINTING AND SHARP WORDING EMPHASIZING THAT YOU ARE EVIL IF YOU DON’T FOLLOW THEIR RATZON” (Did any of you feel like I was screaming or being sharp?… that’s how they come over).

    Second, they make no exceptions. I remember an OLD lady (and I mean OLD!) getting on the bus once and none of the men would give up their seat for her. She was left there standing (and almost fell) until one lady from the previous generation (the one’s with a little more seichel and less chutzpa than ours) got up and started to scream at the men as she helped the old lady to her own seat. (BTW – it was crowded and I was standing so I couldn’t give up a seat for her.)

    Case 3 – A girl, a soldier and a cop were all 3 attacked by lunatics (holy one’s of course) in Ramat Beit Shemesh because she sat down in the front of the bus next to the soldier. Now I agree she should have gotten up and moved to the back, but that certainly does not allow for people to hit anyone! (Where were you fanatics 20 years ago when the buses we mixed? I never saw you yelling at anyone then! I never saw you hitting anyone then! You probably didn’t even think twice about it when you saw a girl sit down next to a man (as long as it wasn’t next to you you didn’t mind!) This hatred is breded by Vaad Hatznius!

    Case #4 – Beitar Illit – Men who either are part of the Vaad or are big followers plotted to distort the face of a girl in the community that isn’t acting tznius by throwing Bleach at her face. BLEACH!!! These idiots rationalized that if she looked ugly she would dress and act more tznius. Unfortunately, to add insult to injury there was a case of mistaken identity and they threw bleach in the face of her younger sister (whom I’m told was much more in line than her sister) and blinded her in one eye, let alone permanently distorting an innocent (by all standards) girl’s face. Look at how righteous this people is! (You say, “these are just extremist and we can’t judge the whole based on the miyut”. I say, “where there’s smoke, there’s fire!” Also, it’s clear from all over Tanach that the rov can not excuse themselves from the miyut.)

    I could go on, but it is getting close to Shabbos. I will B”N try to comment on the other questions posed my direction after Shabbos.

    To end – as far as I am aware of, Klal Yisroel never had a Vaad Hatznius in these past 2000 years (please correct me if I’m wrong). We taught our kids to be righteous (and tznius). Where we were lacking our gedolim admonished and guided us on. Vaadim have the potential to backfire. As one Gadol told a friend of mine, “the ben adam lchavero problems of today may have been a costly price for removing the problems of ben adam l’makom of yesterday” (not a direct quote).

    Gut Shabbos

31. To Neve Aliza dn deepthinker,

    Another misconfusion about judaism. Unity does not mean we all do the same thing, wear the same clothing shop in the same stores. One must be an individual in thought and action although we all should have the same goal (to become close to the Boreh Olam). Making everyone look the same is another way to control people and take real and deep thought out of our live. It is saying, we dont trust people to make the right decisions, so lets all do the same thing, that way nobody needs to question anything. This is exactly why kids rebel and go off the derech. You make them into robots where they cant think for themselves, cant question things and worst of all have no idea why it is we do what we do. Its pathetic. I personally tell you, as a Sefaradic person, I am ashamed of how in America and also in Israel, have completely lost that sense of individuality. We conform to the standards set by the yeshiva world, to the point were our kids are embarassed to represent who they are. That is what the “lets all do the same thing” mentality causes. So please, do yourself a favor and dont take an easy way out of an issue which will hurt in the long run.

    thanks

32. I’m a “yeshivish” lady from Lakewood, I have never left a comment before but feel that some imput may be of help. No, we are not in school anymore, uniform is a bit extreme of an idea. Don’t forget we are talking to adults and not kids. I just think we should be mature and advise how a persons tznius levels should remain in the correct guidlines. Life in lakewood is beautiful and hectic as I may attest, but we can easily get caught with the yetzer hora because there is no thinking time. I would like to advise everyone (incl. myself) to go to shiurim. B”H we can do that on the phone for us busy mothers. We just have to constantly remind ourselves who we are, what are goals are and where we are headed to-it’s not easy to keep sensitivities when we will be considered outdated. The local stores must carry proper tznius like clothing at decent prices so as not to force kollel woman to go else where. I’ve seen many people take upon themselves to learn two halachos a day for shmiras halashon. It may be a good idea to start your nightly shmooze with a friend with a simple halacha on tznius from “oz v’hador l’vusha”. Don’t jump the gun learn slowly and comprehend as we make our way through the sefer. Now I would like to end off: The chofetz chaim in his introduction states, I know there will be people who will critisize my sefer, but I will still continue to write this sefer because rishaim will choose the path that they want to go in regardless. For those of you who are not interested in strenghthening yourself, go in your ways, much hatzlacha and criticize the gedolim who spoke last night. For everyone else the gedolim are our neveim of today, they are here to wake us out of our sleep, let’s thank them, take their message and bring mashiach soon!

33. to 24:

    So they are not trying to fix the issue of what they will see (as they can’t force Goyim to be Tznius), rather that Yidden should follow Halacha. In a community like Lakewood where everyone? follows the Roshei Yeshiva, this could work since there will be a set and defined standard which is halachicly correct according to anyone in the community who would ask a shaila (since everyone asks the Roshei Yeshiva). Hopefully the Roshei Yeshiva will make sure everyone knows what this standard is so they know what needs to be done to be in compliance. I would hope people are being Oyver Bshoggeg and not Bemazid.

    I’m still not sure what a vaa’d does, though.

34. Is this the Rabbi Wachsman From Darchei Torah?

35. Hi, I am a guy who was not able to make to the Asifa, but having listened to the speeches here on this webesite, i became really inspired . As such, I have decided from now on to allways dress tznius.

36. For all you suggesting that the women should dress alike in “yeshivishe malbush”, etc…

    This idea has already been implimented.

    Go move 100 miles west to Amishtown,Lancaster, PA

37. to #31..bizrizut..what neighborhood do live in ?

38. This is ridiculous.. a uniform.. men can handle it.. women r different.. women have guidelines in dress ex: not too tight, no red or crazy colors wear 3 layers so ur not see-thru etc… i think that if a women feels shes dressed too untznius then she should change and work on herself. some women may not realize or be aware so i think the idea is to create more awareness to the ladies. but to make women have a uniform i totally disagree they will just rebel against it.
    On the other hand half the men i know wear black hats and white shirts etc.. and then when they go on vacation or something u can even recognize them they go all out that my husbands dress
    (black hat etcc) sticks out in the crowd..-know am i saying theres something wrong with it-to each there own. but what im trying to say is that if men go on vacation and forget there hat etc… how much more so are women gonna forget there “uniforms” at home..

39. Do not confuse three thousand people who were curious what this asifa was going to be all about – with three thousand people who are clapping their hands to have a self righteous tzneius police in town.

    Honestly, I think Lakewood is a true Ir Torah with very few tzneius issues. Anyone who showed up to this asifa, probably does not have these issues in their own home. The possible one percent of Lakewood who does have tzneius issues, were probably at the time of the asifa in the bungalow colony coupling with their friends anyway.

    To create an asifa for the whole Lakewood would indicate that Lakewood indeed has a big tzneius problem. I think it is a slap in the face of this heiliga Ir Hatorah to even create the illusion that Lakewood has a big problem that has to be solved.

40. While I’m listing to Rabbi Wacsman Shlita about tznius, I am being inundated by ads on this site about the latest & hottest sheitals, Brand new 2009 luxury cars, luxury bath and tile ads to further beautify your luxury home. Luxury Tours to Europe, and All this LUXURY is being bombarded into our society from all the KOSHER media. In my humble opinion, any person that is living a life of BIGGER & BETTER in the “matrial” things on this earth will unfortunately also indulge in the LATST & GREATEST in fasion, which leads to a situation lacking tznius. Until all of this UNTZNIUSDIKE LUXURY LIFESTYLE OF “LIVE IN THE LATEST STYLE LUXURY HOUSE, DRIVE THE LATEST STYLE LUXURIOUS CAR, DRESS YOUR KIDS IN THE MOST FASHIONABLE CLOTHING…ETC.” IS REMOVED FROM OUR ‘KOSHER’ MEDIA, TZNIUS IN CLOTHING & DRESS WILL NOT BE ADHERED TO

41. Regardless of what others may say, although I did not attend, this event seems to be a fantastic gathering that should be repeated often. There is never enough chizuk in the world, and I am personally grateful for every drop of chizuk I am priviledged to hear, and yes, chizuk works. The people who, no doubt, will benefit from this experience and think twice about their tznius only because of what happened here, the good that comes out of it, is priceless.

42. Women are made to sit in the back of a bus??

    I believe almost any of this nonsense, but seriousley have a hard time with this one.

    If the women actually put up with this and listen, our problem is rooted even deeper.

    This is eerily similar to racial segregation of the 1950s and if this is what we came to, how we treat our women, uch-un-vey.

43. In my opinion, here is what I see as a big part of the tznius problem. Many women dress in clothing that they consider to be “pretty” and this is quite understandable as we all want to look good in public. It is not their intention to dress immodestly.

    However, one thing I noticed is that women often get lost in the “prettiness” of an outfit and don’t always consider “is this outfit too tight” or “is this too short”. They have good intentions in the clothing they are buying but really need a third party to tell them what they think about the outfits.

    Additionally, most women do not consider the “male” reaction to viewing a person dressed in a certain style of clothing. B’H my wife always asks me how I feel about the outfit she wants to buy. So in essence we both watch each other. However, it is hard to explain to a woman not to buy clothing because a male may have “certain thoughts”.

    Bottom line is, we are living in a society that dresses and acts in a certain way and no doubt it is mashpia on us in how we dress and act. It is with the assistance of Hashem and our Gedolim that we can remain on the right derech.

44. ehat a shame that we have strayed so far from common sense that this is necessary. Why should one think that it is ok to excersice in front of men or go jogging in public yet we do not wish to look at ourselves. we would rather say “they are just looking to boss us around” Or “there are so many other issues” SO WHAT! When will people take to heart all of our suffering and be honest enough to address what needs to be addressed without looking for excuses

45. While the idea of tzinyus originating as something internal and capable of a person experiencing all by themselves is extremely appealing and beautiful, the concept of a vaad for tzyinus is extremely disturbing. In the Moslem world, womens’ garb are policed by various groups. The result has been that women have been mistreated and subject to excessive abuse. While the rabbanim who sit on the vaad may be truly anshei kodesh, the repurcusions of such an organizations will be very detrimental to all women. Once there is a an approved formal regulation of tzniyus, there will be those who will take the liberty of enforcing and regulating this on their own. This is a very dangerous precedent for klal yisroel. Areas that are kadosh and private should remain so between a husband and his wife. Women will be scrutinized in ways that they have not been before. Although I understand the motivation behind the concept, I strongly hope that it does not come to fruition.

46. To all those who think a uniform is the way to go – I don’t know how many women would go along with that idea, after all women like to dress prettily, but, if we just follow the guidlines for tznius that is enough of a uniform – high neck lines, long enough skirts and sleeves, loose enough, not form fitting clothing, no gaudy colors, and modest sheitels, or “gasp” NO sheitels at all. I would go along with that.(I do already, actually)

47. #46: You are using an argument eerily similar to those of people from the Reform movement, and others devoted to destroying traditional Torah values. Of course in this religion we recognize and give equal importance to the role women as much as that of men. However, we understand that their respective roles are very different. We also try to minimize contact between men and women (al tarbeh sicha im haisha). Do you also maintain that placing women behind a mechitza in shul is “discrimination”. You say that it is sad that this is how we “treat our women”. The truth is that in this case, most of the wives of the men who support the notion of separate buses agree with them 100%. Please don’t compare them to the blacks of the 1950s who I believe did not appreciate these laws so much. By the way, before I move to Eretz Yisroel, I probably also would’ve thought the idea of separate buses is a bit extreme; But if you would hop on an average bus here, you would be shocked by the conditions of men and women being squashed together and leaning against each other, which is inevitable when there are so many people in such a confined space. You really don’t have to be a “frummy” to feel uncomfortable in a situation like that.

    Yes, in Judaism we do subscribe to “separate but equal” when it comes to the relationship between men and women. And as Torah Jews we will not cave to modern, liberal theologies that threaten our Holy traditions

48. Thank you for posting audio links to the speeches. Very inspiring indeed. Please also post links to the women asifa on Sunday.

49. uniforms are too extreme. will never work.

50. The chicken is coming home to roost. We’ve created a generation of men who are discouraged from working
    (even if only for a number of years). This forces the women (even kollel wives) to be career women. You can’t expect them to be immersed in the goyishe velt and not be influenced by the way the outside world dresses, talks, acts etc. That is the sad reality. (Add to this the fact that we have a generation of children being brought up by shiksa babysitters.) And yes, you might say that even working men have working wives, but you have to admit that once it becomes almost mandatory for even the very yeshivish to have career wives, it becomes totally acceptable for all.

51. to #56 charliehall can you refer to us who taught you this, what does it mean, how do we go about it, and how will it progress from inside to the outside?

52. #54: Of course women need to get exercise and fresh air. I’m not sure what you’re alluding to, but I don’t think anyone would assur women from getting exercise (period), or from leaving her house to get fresh air. I could understand how a Rov would implore women to do these things in a tzniusdik way. And you may choose to disagree with the entire idea of women’s tznius; But I don’t think such a Rov could be labeled a chossid shoteh.

    Ironically, you quoted the Rambam. The Rambam incidentally states elsewhere that a man should not lock his wife in the house as if she”s in prison, rather he should let her out ONCE OR TWICE A MONTH depending on the tzorech (i.e. to visit her parents, and to attend weddings/beis avel). He adds that one however should not allow his wife to constantly be out on the street and in public.Now this may sound a little extreme, and I’m sure that anyone witn seichel (and even most without) would agree that times have changed, and the practical guidelines for this halacha, must be put into updated terms. But I think the idea of this Rambam still applies; use your seichel.

    In regard to the communities you mentioned, that don’t allow women to drive, you must understand that their culture is different than that of the society we are in. After seeing the aforementioned Rambam, one would have to imagine that he would have frowned upon women driving in his times. Don’t attack a society for being more like the Rambam’s times than ours is.

    In regard to your comment that there is no purpose of women worrying about tznius because they are at least better than their secular counterparts(?)
    Whoaa.
    It is incumbent upon women to dress modestly. That is one of the main themes of a bas yisroel. There are many reasons for this, and it would be ridiculous to have to explain the basics on a frum blog like this (if you prefer an explanation, I apologize; please ask for one). Forget about what effect they will have on men. If you mean to say that [you know this, and you’re implying that] our halachic observance should depend on the way our secular peers are acting – as long as we’re better than them, it’s okay – whoaaa! I don’t think that even needs a formal rebuttal on a frum forum like this.

    Lastly, you revert to the unfortunately stylish practice of godol bashing. You don’t attack the rambam you quoted. You don’t attack the R’ Moshe you quoted. There are gedolim in our generation too, who must be (at least) respected. In every generation the gedolim are a notch down from those of the previous generation, so don’t try that road.

    #56: Tznius comes from inside, and must be practiced on the outside.

53. to 57 level2…”we” didn’t create ,and no chickens are coming home to roost..the multiudes of aquaintences we have are “nehane m’yigas kapom” and learn hours a day. those who learn in kollel its usually only the first 2-3 years. the noshim who should be more tzniousdik are mostly not from kollel learnig men. also you say “we created..” those who instituted to learn kollel few years aftee the chasesne were no “we” and a person like you definetlty not, it was holy tzddikim, giants of our generation, haoen hatzddik reb aron, the holy square rebbe etc, etc,and this to stay and learn in kollel goes way back generations where it was possible..so who are you to came and say “WE”!! created.. the last 2 line you have , wont even bother…we mean to say your reasoning why not kollel wives work..

54. to #51..you say “not long ago someone DARED to put up..and lost parnoso because of a gadol..”so you say he lost parnosah because of a gadol… and who was that GADOL? hagaaon hatzaddik reb aron shechter! and you made your ‘OPINIONS’ known overthere too, where we and plenty others discern where you stand,,see following link post #22, #24 etc. let those who are interested see and come to their own conclusions…and then you’ll complain why that poster had you on the “pro- freikiet list…yout whole comment (51) shmeckt of leitzonos..so we can say “aizahu apikores, zeh hamvazeh talmidai chachamin (rav shechter,and in this post talmidai chachamim in general.. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/14606/UPDATE:+Boycott+Against+Flatbush+Shaitel+Store+Over.html#comments

55. to #59 yerucham…this is not the 1st or 2nd timepahute yid…compare these subjects to “taliban, talibanization,” afre l’pimawere trasying to find his comment way back so you can really see vu ehr halt mit zaein haskofes…

56. to jent1150:

    Re 24: You still have not explained what a Vaa’d HaTznius is and what it does. Lo HaBayshan Lomed.

    I think everyone on the forum (who does not know)would like to know. Pehaps it would be a good idea to implement over here as well.

    Thanks in advance.

57. to #63 gavra_at work..see post #17 we refered to rambam..so open up the rambam and look up the the mekor (moed katan?)and if still no excplicit insructions ask your “gadol” how gemmoroh is applied into practical term… after all we didnt make it up…

58. Re 64:

    Thank you:

    The Rambam (FYI):

    חייבין בית דין להעמיד שוטרים ברגלים, שיהיו מסבבין ומחפשין בגינות ובפרדסים ועל הנהרות, כדי שלא יתקבצו לאכול ולשתות שם אנשים ונשים, ויבואו לידי עבירה. וכן יזהירו על דבר זה לכל העם, כדי שלא יתערבו אנשים ונשים בבתים לשמחה, ולא יימשכו ביין, שמא יבואו לידי עבירה

    (from Mechon Mamre (first entry on Google))

59. The audio links do not work, so I don’t know what was covered at the asifa. If this was brought up, please forgive me.

    What I’m curious about are the following questions which, I think, need serious answering before any such undertaking could be carried out:

    1. Who will be on the Va’ad Hatznius. Specifically, it’s fine and well for R. Solomon, R. Kotler et al to call for the formation of them, but are they going to be involved in a day-to-day basis? Or is the leadership of this going to fall into the hands of lay-people? The reason I ask is that while I might trust R. Solomon with decisions on how to handle recalcitrant people, I’m also certain we all know people who would go beyond the bounds of what we consider normal in dealing with people.

    2. What powers, specifically, will the Va’ad have? Will they have the ability to expel people’s kids from school? Refuse them entrance into the shul? Demand that they sell their homes and move out of the neighborhood? Slash their tires? In short, what is the prescribed method for dealing with people who cannot/will not dress in a tznius fashion in the neighborhood?

    3. Will there be a mechanism in place to deal with people who take things too far. If one person throws acid at someone whom they deem to be dressed in an untznius fashion will there be a mechanism for punishing that person and making sure they don’t do it again? In short, how do you prevent vigilante action by rogue members (or rogue former members) of the Va’ad?

    4. Will there be a mechanism for the community’s voice to be heard? It’s all fine and well to say “it’s up to the gedolim…” but I don’t think that will fly well – even in Lakewood. If people start becoming concerned with the way the Va’ad is operating (for whatever reason), will they have a voice in rectifying the problem, or will they be shut out and subject to a “if you don’t like it, move” attitude?

    5. How do you prevent people from spying on one another to turn in people whom they have a grudge against? If I have an argument with my neighbor, I don’t want to have to worry about the Va’ad showing up the next day because he claims that he saw something not tznius (real or fabricated). In other words, how do you substantiate claims, who has the right to make a claim and under what circumstances can claims be made?

    6. Whose standards of tznius will be used? For some women, walking around with bare feet is not a problem. For others, feet must always be covered. In some groups, a married woman must always wear a sheitel… others hold a sheitel is, in itself, untznius. In some communities, the color red is verbotten, in others it is not (unless it is intentionally loud). In other words, whose standards are going to be used? Will it automatically be the most machmir standard? And what if someone doesn’t want to adhere to that standard, but to a standard which is halachically acceptable, but not up to the “community standards?”

    7. What expectations of privacy can a person have? A Maven (post #16, above) tells of an incident in his own personal private back yard. Is that private enough? Can a woman walk around bareheaded in her own backyard if she has a reasonable expectation of privacy there (i.e. that no one will come in and see her?). What about in one’s home? Or do I have to worry that the Va’ad will take action against me if my wife dares to take off her sheitel in her own home amongst her family? In short, in what places/circumstances will a claim be automatically disregarded?

    I think these questions (and others that I haven’t thought of) need to be seriously discussed before such an undertaking happens.

    The Wolf

60. Two thoughts:

    1. With the exception of RSK, Shlit”a, I did not hear any of the speakers address what a Vaad would do or even mention a Vaad at all. RSK mentioned fielding complaints and speaking with husbands based on them, and if that doesn’t work speaking directly with the offending wives. He did not address who the Vaad would be comprised or how it would be chosen. On some level, of course, my family is already subject to a Vaad, since “Aseh l’cha Rov” has meant that we have relationships with Rabonim (and my wife with Rabonim and Rebbitzens) who would perform the function that RSK Shlita mentioned.

    To think out of the box for a moment, is there any reason to assume that Dass Torah is contemplating a Vaad comprised of men. At least as to the component of tznius reflected in women’s dress, which seems to be the focus here (BE”H other aspects that the speakers referred to would be addressed too, especially materialism), wouldn’t a Vaad of women likely be more successful. They could more tactfully take things up directly with the right women and I suspect their mussar would be more easily accepted. This would also ameliorate the risk of men involved for the wrong reasons etc.

    2. My wife would like to organize a Vaad make sure that men are maintaining proper sedorim and not being nichshol in the aveyra of bittul zman. Of course it would be tricky, because of the complications and exceptions that might need to be recognized to account for individual peculiarities and circumstances and where individuals are coming from, but that is true of any Vaad-patrolled rule. She also feels like this is something that absent such a system women have little control over, but that also can come at their expense since they are moser nefesh for our learning. Any reactions? Anyone ever hear Dass Torah on this question?

61. speak to any m’sader gitten and rosh yeshiva- the marriages are cracking because fine young FRUM men are falling victim to the dark side of the internet- not because of women not dressing tznius enough. but sure, by all means, if you don’t want to address the real problem- since it’s more painful to admit and difficult to fix, pick on tznius. brilliant. hope it works.

62. Wolf –

    If you have any qualms or questions, please address them to Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, or Rav Mattisyahu Solomon. They will be the ones making these decisions, implementing them and carrying them out. As such, they are the ones who can answer them, not any anonymous bloggers.

    yochanan –

    If you wish to make jokes about the Vaad with facetious comparisons in your #2, the choizek you make is of Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, and Rav Mattisyahu Solomon.

63. Joseph:

    Thank you for calling to my attention that my point #2 could be read as making choizek. I apologize and ask the mods to delete point #2.

    What I was trying to highlight, using the analogy of challenges in bittul zman, was the complexity of individual circumstances and background that come into play, and don’t easily lend themselves to being dealt with in a mass movement.

    Of course it is precisely in the area of recognizing and sensitively addressing such individuality that our gedolim, including Rav Kamenetzky, Rav Wachsman and Rav Solomon, Shlit”a most exhibit how special they are.

    It may not be fair or realistic, though, to expect that our already overburdened Gedolim, will be the ones (in your words) “making these decisions, impelementing them and carrying them out”. Halevai it should be so.

64. #44-
    BRAVO. Learning from hypocrisy is nearly impossible.

65. Joseph,

    I wasn’t asking people here for answers. I was bringing up questions that I think are important and must be answered before such an undertaking could take place. I think we all agree that we don’t want a bunch of vigilantes running around taking matters into their own hands, right? Well, questions such as the ones I posed must be asked and answered to prevent potential abuse situations.

    The Wolf

    Editors Note: So go ask the Rabbonim your questions. This thread is closed…..