Several character witnesses took the stand in support of a popular Muslim cleric in New Jersey facing deportation. One of them was Rabbi David Senter of Congregation Beth Shalom in Pompton Lakes. He praised Imam Mohammad Qatanani’s, who resides in Paterson, for his efforts to bring together people of different faiths.
Qatanani’s trial in federal court in Newark entered its second day on Friday.
Qatanani, his wife and three children are facing deportation for his alleged failure to disclose a 1993 arrest by Israeli authorities on his green card application. Israeli military officials told the Associated Press he confessed to being a member of Hamas, a known terrorist organization. Qatanani denies the charge.
Qatanani claims he was convicted without his knowledge after three months of detention that included physical and mental abuse. He has said he did not become aware of the conviction until last fall.
The following was taken from Congregation Beth Shalom’s website, and was written by Rabbi Senter: “So what type of Rabbi am I? Orthodox? Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist? I guess I am a “paradox”. One of my colleagues dubbed me a “Reconstructed. Neo-Chasidic, Orthoxotive, Yeshiva boy. I guess you can call me a constantly evolving Under-constructionist Jew.
As an Under-constructionist I understand that Religion is a very personal matter, and the individual must find the level of observance they are comfortable with. Judaism is like a buffet; I want to help you take as much or as little as you are ready for. ”
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60 Responses
Why dignify him with the title ”Rabbi”?
Judaism may be a buffet but I don’t think this rabbi’s restaurant is all too kosher!
I guess the point of this is that the “rabbi” is not being helpful to us.
Another Jew hating rabbi.
“Judaism is like a buffet; I want to help you take as much or as little as you are ready for.”
Wow, at least he practices what he preaches.
“So what type of Rabbi am I? Orthodox? Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist? I guess I am a “paradox”. ”
so mr Senter, you are yet another reform jew who thinks that you can build bridges with murderers and their supporters… why am i not supprised?
neo-chassidic? Feh, if this meshuganeh is even entertaining movements like reform, he’s not ‘under construction’, he’s demolished. Oddly enough, he claims to ave received semicha at kol yaakov; so he sounds like a baal teshuva who went way, way off the derech – this guy is a full-fledged apikores, since he went to a real yesiva.
Send them both (so called rabbi & cleric) to GAZA!
Forget what type of Rabbi he is; WHAT TYPE OF JEW IS THIS “RABBI”? Oh, maybe he is the self-hating type.
to #5..usually it less than “a little”..also wondering what kind of —– caters this “buffet”)
I don’t understand why people are referring to hom as “Mr.” After all he had impecable chareidi credentials. He comes from a well known rabbinic family, the Senters of Chof-K reknown and he studied in well respected yeshivot. So what gives?
to #11..there you you again sticking up for “maisis u’madichim” again. another proove beyond shadow of doubt of our assesment of your haskofos (see article may 3,”chareidi weekly..”, posts with this signiture plus some others in agreement, and “canteor esq” signiture. chareidi vs.unchareidi..so we can come to conclusion that the “clergy” in this article is also included in your unchareidi group..also whats the yichus that he comes from well known rabbinical family..eisov was also from well known “rabbinical family, oiso ish was also, etc etc etc etc, one of the great geonim of 300years ago had son that convert…(at end he came back..).did you hear of tamlmud s’henischametz…look in the mirror..
#11 & #12 – This would not, unfortunately, be the first example of someone of an Orthodox background and family credentials that has gone of the deep end.
also to #11..didnt want to mention this on other article since you mentioned names…the holy reb yitzchok m’vorker,was approx 250 yrs ago, (was also from those “revisionist” rebbes according to you and your yesh….university online information.)explained on the tane in “ovos” says “mah bein talmidim shel avrohom avinu..and bilam..” question: why doesnt the tane say “mah bein avrohom avinu and bilam harahsah..” he answers , between avrohom avinu and bilam one sometimes may not be asble to differenciate, both rabbinical garbs both might be well versed b’chol hatorah…but we judge them according how their talmidim look and act, so talmiddim of “avrohaom avinu ” who go in the holy derech of our forefathers (chareidi, revisionist according to you, see aforementioned article)and they have tzure of “im h’urav doime l’malech h’shem tzvous”… but the talmidim of bilom hurasha quite a number of them go out and matir assurim,eg. no mechitzes bet…. in “temple”, the not chareidi have say have mixed swimming, by chareidi (revisionists, afreh l’pime)its gilu aroies, the ones who are not supposed to, go dressed with pants and lax in a number of halachos in shulchan urech(aka. which is revisionist yiddikeit according to you..) quite a few become clergymen in non -shomrei torah umitzvos temples(some refer those as non-orthodox as conservetive etc. etc whatever that means)etc, etc . now mr cantor esq…can you answer us…DO YOU CONSIDER EVERY DIN IN THE ARBAEI CHELKAI SHULCHEN URECH BINDING ?
cantoresq and charlie hall: having impecable chareidi credentials is not what matters nor does receiving semicha from a prominent Rosh Yeshiva. —- history is nice, family lineage is nice what you do with what you have is more important. Has anyone asked Rav Tropper has opinion, I do not think he would be too happy to see his former student acting in such a disgraceful manner.
to #17…you say “you try to put everyone else on the the defensive..” we were addressing to one particular poster so why do you have this guilty conscious…and of what should you feel guilty of if we are not not right?..also we didnt ask “everybody” how “frum THEY are” or whether THEY follow every letter” ..also we need a little help from you where in our postings we “passed judgment” on anybody..we just repeated a toirle from a holy tzaddik (according to the the chareidim .. you know those revisionist chareidim ask mr cantor esg about them,.)and then stated a fact so what are you crying about if its not true say so ..
I was simply poking a little fun at the chreidim olam. This is an occurance where the bad guy, in this case a rabbi, comes from the chreidi world. Chareidim should see this instance and take it to heart. The chareidi way is not a guarantee of anything. Plenty of people raised on a good solid dose of chareidiut, who may even come from the finest families and may have been taught at the finest chareidi schools, turn out bad. It’s people like David Senter who make me wonder why chareidim are generally so smug about their religiosity? Why are chareidim so convinced that they are Jewishly better than everyone else?
to #17 you say “this is getting tiring” you have a choice of not reading posts with this signature..but our opinion is that somehow we hit raw nerve ,v’hamskil yovin..also please study reading comprehension.we asked if you, he, believe that every din in arbay chelkay shulchun urech is “BINDING”?.not if your are a perfect tzaddik, oib mir chareidim zenen oiver avairelech here and there ,sometimes shumsen beim leinen, nit machen abroche azoi vi es darf tzu zein etc etc etc,, nebech there is some tien gresere avairos veil men falt arein in de yatzer horos netz ,but by charedim there is no such thing as disregard a seuf in shulchen urech and say this is not for me, that is hogwash,the other is for primitive people the 3 rd is for the stone age…so we didnt say we are perfect tzddikim…we asked if you consider above as “BINDING”..and if you dont understand the difference dont complain that we are 4th grade level…not that we are embarrased if yes…
to #22…who is this “everybody else” you are refering to… again we are going into yesodos discssed up to here in other articles…what do consider un-chareidi so we can have an idea to compare , although have a good idea…
cantoresq – What religious subset do you belong to (if any), so we can ”’poke a little fun” at them like you say you do at chareidim?
We would also like to broad-brush your religious subset (if any), as you do chareidim, with your smugness and belief you are better than chareidim.
#16 to answer your question, I do not consider myself bound by every rule contained in the Shulchan Arukh for the simple reason that Halacha p’suka does not always go according to the Shulchan Arukh. If you want to know if I consider Halacha binding upon me and if I aspire to live my life Halachikly, the answer is an unequivocal yes. But that second statement is nebulous since a sincere Conservative Jew feels the same way. So I don’t really understand the point of your question.
#25, indeed the subset to which I refer is hard to precisely define, as the point of demarcation between chareidi and non-chareidi Orthodoxies is “fuzzy.” But there is a clearly identifiable subset of Orthodox Jews who in their very bearing and as a matter of doctrine believe themselves superior to all other Jews by virtue of their lifestyle, one which generally eschews secualr learning beyond that which is acquired to earn a living, one which has a decidedely bi-chromatic sartorial presentation, and one which elevates the virtue of chumrah over leniencies. Some adherents to that weltaunshaung, indeed it sometimes seems the majority of those people, are smug in their (faux) religious security and condescending to the rest of us Jews. It is that subset I poke fun at and indeed for all my failings, there is little doubt in my mind that I am superior to such people.
#25, first and foremost, I am a member of the whole set of people, the subset of Jews, and the Jewish subset of people who seek to live their lives in accordance with Halacha and avoid becoming entrapped in in nivul birshut haTorah. I have, in another thread, identified those contemporary rabbis who have shaped much of my current religious thought. Feel free to poke fun all you wish.
TO #25 etc..ok now we know where you stand what you believe , even though we had dicerned that(vi eir halt mit aier hashkofos nifsodos to begin with as per our posting in previous articles, too tired too look up again, we’are not here to convince neither the the first reform movements from 2100 years ago (aka oiso ish movement called ch–tianity which was one of the first reform movements, nor other anti-tiorah movements karoim, reform consrvative etc…so just back to old question since this site is for bnei torah who belive that …etc etc , what are you doing on this site…vda mah shtoshiv lapikors..snaheddrin gemorah ..”vdafka bemin akum avol b’min yisroel kolshken d’pokar tefay…” so to refute you is not b’gader v’da. as soon as you mentioned who your gedolim are who you look up to b’tzerif the loshon you use in the “chareidi news paper ” article postings etc, etc (review all postings …
to #22 you say “plenty of chareidi… turn out bad” who ever said all chreidi are perfect angels. also all the anti torah movements christianity ,reform, conserv., restruct, somewhere down the line their father grandfather, greatgrandfather were somrei torah umitzvos,(Aka charedi,revisionist,historical untruths,myths (huh? mr cantor esg),so who came down from heaven and made new relavation to you movements that one should disregard all torah s’bal peh ?(which of course leads to disregard torahs’bksav too…..
#23 jent1150 writes: “also please study reading comprehension”. I have read many of your posts on many threads and it is very hard to comprehend a lot of what you write because you are very lax in spelling and grammar. I understand if you can’t spell but at least try to type the letters that you mean to type, especially when transliterating from Hebrew/Yiddish/Aramaic to English because mistakes there are even harder to read. Until you learn to type properly, don’t assume that others can comprehend you. What I personally do is I read through my post after typing it before submitting and I edit out any mistakes, it takes a few extra minutes but makes it easier for others. I have a spell-checker in my browser that underlines misspelled words so I don’t even have to be the best speller. Think of it as bain adom lichavayro; proper spelling makes it easier for others to read, makes their life easier, less frustrating. I sure hope you are more midakdek in mitzvos than you are in typing!
cantoresq – The ”little doubt” of your superiority complex is sure to be your downfall.
If, as everyone says, he has an Orthodox S’micha, then my opinion is this:
1) You have no right to remove the title Rabbi from his name … who do you think you are?
2) is it not possible that he is a sincere orthodox, God-fearing Jew, who in order to be mekarev people lets them take on what they feel comfortable with? All of you, who are so self-righteous, and claim to follow every Halacha in Shulchan Aruch, tell me this: Is there not a mitzvah to be Dan L’Kaf Z’chus. Or in your misguided zealotry, did that particular Halacha get “forgotten?”
to#32 haqer …have already mentioned in other posting, dont have secretary to go over.we are doing business online so here there sending these posts if one cant read let them not read were not here to pass any spellin’ be, grammah etc…also by throwing in “i hope your more medakdek in b’mitvos than in typing..” mir hoben shvache kop ,can you enlighten us, vie kumt eins tzu de andere. why dont you say ,lets say, “i hope your more mdakdek by crossing the street then as by your spellin'”…but pshat is we hit a raw nerve by you too so we must come to conclusion you have same anti torah hakofos as cantor esq, iilini07 that is the “TACHAS” the underlying factor that made you say that particular “stech”.so question is as for them what you doin’ on ehrlich shomrei torah u’mitzvos site?
to #34 mir farshtein nit, did you read as how he describes himself according to his website braught down in this article?…so how can you interpet this to be a yirai shomayim etc.?also if a doc. would be stripped of his liscense me wouldnt call him doc. anymore ,so if it is as we understand from his website so he is b’gader koifer in what soimerei torah hold binding that torah min hashmayim b’chol prutayhu,v’dkdikayho (rashi this weeks prashe {according to cantor esq charedi revisionism}) so chareidi definition of rabbi (as rabbeinu hakodosh ) is one who blieves above and teaches it to klal yisroel , otherwise can lable him “clergy”, and maybe that title also not because clergy denote belief in diety, and since non- charedi, especially those who lable themself reform ,what ever that means, dont and thats historical truths (hey cantor esg, if i use those 2 words it automaticly become that no? even you say dso)buyt any way this you can verify on plenty sites according to their writings, etc …danl’kaf zechos is legabay ehrlicher yid..that did something shlo al pi…
#29, Please answer this question: To your understanding of Torah Judaism, does the concept of “Harbei panim l’Torah” apply to hashkafic matters as well?
#30, First of all, the issue of cantorial repetition is far from resolved against doing so. People today frown upon it for two very bad reasons. First people really don’t want to put forth the effort and allow the liturgy to speak to their souls, and secondly it’s very easy to be frum about something that requires no effort, especially when it concerns a subject about which people are ambivalent. As to my “place of worship” it’s a regular run of the mill Orthodox schul in Rockland County, New York.
#31 what you fail to comprehend is that historically traditional Jewish life did not really resemble what is now called chareidi Orthodoxy. Contemporary chareidiut was formed in response to emancipation, the Haskalah and ultimately the freedoms of America. But is it a far cry from what we once had.
#31 please demonstrate when I ever said Torah she’bichtav can be disregarded? Show one instance of it.
#36 I happen to agree with you that David Senter has, by virtue of his affiliation with Conservative Judaism, forfeits any religious authority he may have had. But I think you are wrong when you assert that ALL Conservative and Reform rabbis or Jews do not believe in G-d. Had you stopped with the claim that such people are “b’geder koifer” you may have had a point (if we ignore the Iggros Chazzon Ish). But went to say that anyone who isn’t chareidi doesn’t believe in G-d at all. I defy you to prove that statement with actual evidence. And no the usual causuitry you employ will not pass for evidence. In factm I’ll make it easier for you. I’m not a chareidi. I defy you to prove that I don’t believe in G-d. Go ahead try it. I’ll answer every question about my beliefs you throw at me.
cantoresq – take some advice from an old sparring partner: you are treading in dangerous territory when you say “It is that subset I poke fun at and indeed for all my failings, there is little doubt in my mind that I am superior to such people.” When one views oneself as superior to others, one has a tendency to act in improper ways towards the subset that one is “superior” to.
As for those that follow (excluding the clergy that take/keep away from Torah true Judaism) the reform or conservative movement (away from) Torah true Judaism, we should not look down on them either. many of them are clinging to some sort of spirituality – misguided as they are. others, are just “social” Jews. no, we should not feel superior to them either
With this said, TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY Mr. Senter is a bigger problem them the average jts or uohc ordained clergyperson precisely because of his background. by publically being affiliated with a conservative house of worship he loses his status as a Rabbi regardless of where and by whom he received semicha. go to their website and look at the picture of this mr senter and a young lady reading from a Torah – go further and see that his gabbai is a woman – and to you, he is still accorded with the title Rabbi???
to #37..there is “harbeh panim l’torah” an there is “m’galeh ponim b’torah”..you are from the latter..please we metioned again and again, just keep reading all your posts and read all post that were in response to your posts ,not only ours EG:joseph , yiddishe mama etc..we can keep going in circles on and on ’till kingdom come…the bottom line is “talmud huyo …shehoyou m’tahar es hashrotzim b’maya v’chamishim tamim..” mesechtas eruvin..also read again post #16…also we dont go according who is bigger lamden gaon, we measure according “im hurav dome l’amlech hashem tzevuous yevakshu torah m’pihu v’im lav..”. so lets see how yourrbaimlook (dont mean your immediate.andwhatind rabbaim we chareidim look up to..as a side issue, tothose who dont believe in torah s’bal peh..why dont they eat yom kipper..nowhere in torah mentioned one is not allowed to eat on yom kippur, that one has to blow shofar on ros hashanah and that its a day of tsuvah, not to sow reap, cook ,bake on shabbos…and so with each mitavah..
#35, I don’t chas veshalom have the same “anti-Torah hashkofos” as canteresq and illini07, although I do agree with some of the things they say to some degree more than you do, but I do disagree with many of their modern orthodox hashkafos. I was not trying to put you down by saying that I hope you are more midakek in mitzvos than you type. I also hope that you are more midakdek in crossing the street as well. I was trying to say that some things that you may not consider important such as the way you type might actually be more important than you think. You are having a hashkofik debate that I assume is leshaim shomayim to try and be mikarev people to your derech of thinking. If so, you want to make sure that they understand properly what you are trying to convey. If you constantly misspell things, then the people you are trying to reach might not understand you fully and might even misread what you say and/or interpret it the wrong way. Being that I am closer to your hashkofos then cantoresq’s, but I do lean a little toward what they say more than you do, I am very interested in reading what you have to say to each other and find it annoying that I have to break my teeth over your posts that I am otherwise very interested in reading. Furthermore, because I come from a little more modern background than you, I am not as fluent in Yiddish which makes it even harder to understand what you are saying, in English I can usually figure out the words despite the misspellings, but the Yiddish is not as easy and many times I miss what you are saying because I can’t figure out the Yiddish. I understand that you are busy at work and don’t have the time, it’s just something to consider possibly making time for if possible; you seem to have the time to read through all the posts and comments on YW and comment on them so perhaps you only think that you don’t have time because you don’t want to bother yourself with spelling, the question to ask yourself is do you really not have time or are you just fooling yourself to satisfy your own laziness?
mdlevine suffice it to say that sparring with you produces an entirely different kind of punch from me.
#43 again I ask you, please demonstrate where I ever suggested that Torah sh’baal peh is to be disregarded? Please demonstrate a single instance of it. And in specific response to your essentially incohrenet rant, please demonstrate when I was m’galeh panm baTorah shelo k’Halacha.
to #26 cantor esq..your chiluk we dont under stand..me stikele klotz..give sample of when you dont go like(adhere, in fancy language) shulchen urech because its against halacha pesuka, and when you do go as in shulchen urech because its not against halacha p’sika…name 1,2 halachas as sample and where in s’u its braught..
to #39 shion! again you come with YOUR historical truths..we dont know what you, forget it…lets take any dinum in shulchun urech, lets say, hilchos shabbos from 242- lets say to 345 or further hilchos eurevin..all this halochos are derived from the gemorrah which was compiled 2000 years ago, ok, approx,that was way before the periods your talking about so here again me klotzele dont understand, so you will have to feed us like a baby…which part of these halachas was only put there because of the reason you stated, afre l’pime,..we have read many times from real apikorsim machen avek de gantze toireh because of this reason..,not that you are, so we gave you example of what we dont understand, so please which part, point out explicit halachas in shulchen urech that are there just because the reason you mention also, from yoreh dayeh, choshen mispat, even ezer..remeber what you qoute from that person with his “historical truths” are totaly not maleh umorid with our “revisionists myths” our “historical truths come from different sources..
#47 off the top of my head, I seem to recall that both the mechaber and the Rema rule that is is forbidden to shave during Chol Hamoed. But both R. Yosef Dov Soleveitchik and the Iggrot Moshe permit it since most people today do not wear beards. Now go ahead and inssult those two great sages.
to #44..you say “you only think that you dont have have time”, so you want to think for me that i have time? you have much more intelligent posters to learn from so please dont learn from me (see i’m an onev, mr sinisent called us “ball gaiveh”, which article was it ? was it “the blind rabbi..” ” mayor koch..”? just kidding.anyway like we mentioned ,do business on line needs total concentration once lost $$ on bond trade (not much, have stops in ) because of this..so we’re not here to pass spelin’ be(e), gramah’ (grammer, for those who are particular) etc. ..also these are not “my” hashkafos, these are the haskafos of the holy geoinm, tzaddikim, that we look up to the kind we mentiond in other post and to what cantor esq remarked “what is it about those gedolim that you venerate” afre l’pima, see article “chareidi weeklies..” may 3rd post #38, #39
to #47..you know mr cantor we re-read #26 and dont see this halacha mentioned explicitly there with the names of these great sages ,that you can come and say me insult those great sages.by the way we think the noda b’yehuda was matir and thats on what they were soimech (not sure). anyway when a cetain halacha is paskened by a recognized world posek ( by world we mean “de toireh velt”)thats not in our dabate
#48 you ask an excellent question. But it’s one that cannot be answered “al regel achat” in this forum. When I referred to contemporary Orthodoxy not resembling the Jewish life of say 150 or 200 years ago, I was not referring to what it says in the sifre Halacha. Rather I referred to things like the sociology of the Jewish community, way it was administered, the attitudes towards divergent points of view, and the willingness to rely on the validity of mimetic traditions, even when they contradicted the Codes. Suffice it to say, back then, Jewish practice was considerably more liberal and rabbis did not have so much to fear in being lenient as they saw fit. It is against that backdrop that the Chatham Sofer was able to read and even endorse some Haskalah literature. It is against that backdrop that we can understand R. chaim Brisker’s criticism of his son who assered a cow that had a questionable sircha. R. Chaim told his son that in ruling l’chumrah, when there were some opinions that allowed him to be meikil, he destroyed a mans parnasah for a month and that was the greater aveirah. If you want, after you read the Schreiber article I referenced in another thread, I can refer you to some other material on this subject.
PS..to #49 l’gabay that halachah we looked in ohrech chaim 631 seuf 2,3 brings there (the side notes of chasam soifer) tsuvah chasam soifer ohr chaim 154 discussing the node b’yehuda..
#50, I’m not trying to think for you, just raising a possibility, it is your job to think for yourself. By the way, I have to say it, it’s “grammar”, not “grammer”
#51, please define the “Toireh velt.” Speficially, was R. Esriel Hildesheimer part of the “Toireh velt?” How about the Sridei Eish? Was the Suvalker Rav part of it? Those who heard of him would definitely consider the author of the Lechem Rav (R. Mozesz Chaim Segal Litsch Rosenbaum of Kisvarda, Hungary) part of of the “Toirah Velt.” But most people don’t know that, contrary to normative Hungarian practice, he allowed mechalelei Shabbat b’farhesia to have an aliyah adn even serve as the Rosh Hakahal. Knowing that, would you still count him as part of the “toireh velt?” More importantly please exaplain why or why not when answering the specific questions.
#48, I’ll give you another, more personal example of what I mean when I say that contemporary chareidiut does nt resemble traditional Judaism of the past. My father’s uncle, one M`or Fraenkel, was the Mizrachi and B’nei Akiva shaliach in Kisvarda just prior to WWII. Friends of my father recounted to me his eulogy of Arloseroff, after he was murdered in Tel-Aviv. Kisvarda was a chareidi kehilla replete with its own admor, the Salkever Rebbe. Notwithstanding his intense and outspoken Zionism, my great uncle was an honored congregant in the chassidic Kloiz. Can anyone today imagine a B’nei Akiva shaliach davening in a Satmer Bet Midrash? That is the difference between what once was and what now is.
cantoresq,
A large part of your problem stems from your negative misperception of the chareidi community today. In fact, for example you are absolutely incorrect — a thru and thru zionist today will be HONORED with an aliya in a Satmar Beis Medrash today notwithstanding his zionist leanings.
But you have clearly demonstrated over time with your negative perspective an unrealistic idea of the chareidi community.
#57, my post # 48 referenced a publicly known Zionist activist, and you refer to a “thru and thru zionist;” not the same things. Moreover, any negative impressions I have of chareidim stem from my very up close and personal observations of their various communities. Indeed there are many positive aspects to chareidi life, most notably the close knit mutually supportive communities in which they live. Among many, there is true devotion to fulfilling Divine will. But between the benefits fraud, outright theft, tax fraud, general rudeness, and the ritual truculence and pervasive attitude of superiority, which is, to a large extent supported and condoned by chareidi rabbinic and lay leadership, indeed I do have a “nuanced” POV about chareidim.
cantoresq: I can’t speak for other Shuls, however, I can tell you that at my shul: the Young Israel of Spring Valley , we have a Satmar Chosid doven there on a somewhat regular basis (and yes even from the amud).
mdlevine, seems you and I live rather close to eachother. I daven at KNH and we too have a fair share of chassidic visitors to our schul. But my analogy was different. I’ve been a guest at many a chareidi schul as various members of my family are chareidi to varying degrees. No one occaision, a nephews Bar Mitzvah at a well known Litvish yeshiva, I was denied an aliyah since I did not daven with my tallit iber’n kop. At other places, mostly chassidic schuls, no one ever said anything nasty to me. No one said anything to me at all; no Shalom Aleichem, no gut Shabbos, no Fun vie kimt a Yid?, nothing. I may have been invisible. I found myself in such a place once on the Shabbat preceding my father’s Yahrzeit. When I inquired if I might be able to get an aliyah at one of the various minyanim, I was literally laughed at in my face. Between experiences such as those, and my business dealings with various chareidim, I have found that they are admirable from afar, but up close, some are outright despicable. Moreover, their communal structure, in many instances is built upon theft and benefits abuse, if not outright fraud. The recent arrest of David Freisel in London will, I fear very publicly demonstrate what I’m talking about.
cantoresq,
Your comparison is apples to oranges. If an intense and outspoken mechallel shabbos (i.e. promoting chillul shabbos) were to walk into any chareidi shul, he would surely not be honored or otherwise acknowledged. Yet if a mechallel shabbos, who wasn’t public about his chillul shabbos, were to walk in, he would be honored — including in Satmar. So in Satmar were zionism is equivalent to chillul shabbos, and “intense and outspoken” zionist would not but any run of the mill private citizen zionist — including a strong one — would.
And your additional mis-characterization of chareidim as “frauds, outright theft, tax fraud, general rudeness, and the ritual truculence” is not only the opposite of reality but further demonstrates your self-hatred. If you were to talk about blacks or hispanics in that broad-brushing manner you would be quickly written off as from the racist fringe. Yet to your own brothers, you have no qualms so referring.
Your view of chareidim is hardly “nuanced”, but rather racist and full of hatred.
to #60…to mr cantor esq… dont blame you, hamen had same tanis against the yidden see megilah 14b(?). thruout the ages all soina yisroel had taken this que from hamen and some jews too. maybe there must be some thing about you that makes .those peole act that way. vayosem hashen ois al mitzcho… we can discern from about how you write with such vhemon against ehlicha yidden as such.interesting, thruout my life where we were never saw anybody , ulta chassidim, act that way in shul toward not charedi looking yidden. here you write with sina that we are not into secular studies, there you stick up for the maskilim , those maskilm that brought on a chorben on klall yisroel , and now (also thruout other postings, but this is ouright)you write with such hate against the real ehliche yiodden what can we say shoin nisht du wos mir kenen melamed zechus zein oif dir..just wondering, maybe you were asked to cover your kop during the alia and you refused , as we dicern from your writings that you have such sina against the chareid yidden that we can assume you wanted to show who is boss.by the way was in shul ones at certain chassisus that are makpid when one is oile l’torah to wear a cetain…so one wise guy who was not from there hot gevolt vaisen er nit so they didn let him the aliah..of course started redden oif…can take each tane you have and refute according to what we saw those chassisdim act..but mir zain shoin vos du gait fur see first 4 lines
to #60..cantor esq…you mentioned in one of your posts.. certain rov gave aliah to m’challel shabbos..wont go into halacha ..if allowed or not asked someone today metioned to look in tsuvous igros moshe, bais halayvi , munchas yitzchok etc..didn’t find in s’u hilchos krias hatorah 132 (?) mentioned,but any way me think you are more proud that he is mechallel shabbos than the fact they gave alia to him..but anyway..what do you think of the idea itself…here he is m’challel shabbos and we can safely assume one is mechallel shabb. is also oiver, if not kol hatorah, but most . also m’challel shabbos is b’gader “koifer b’chol hatorah kilo”, and that is not from charedi revisionists rebbelech living with “myths”, that din is m’dina d’gemorrah (those rabbis also revisionists?)..so how can you give someone to make bracha “BOROCH ATTA…v’nosan lonu es torusoi…” then “asher nosan lonu toras emres” while he is oiver b’chol hatorah kilo isnt it making choizik from de heilige b’ashefer? wont it meoirer on us c’v chorin af? isnt it leitzunos of the first order?..so dont make this matter so simple..now , if we may , me thinks , from all your postings and haskafas we came across,can we safely assume that you are a mechallel shabbos? and maybe thats why they didn’t want to give you aliah? again we might be mistaken but taking together all your leshonos of speech, the way you are writing with such vehemon against ehrliche yidden..i’m even choshed worse
$62, you’ve already labeled me Conservative, Reform, Christian even. Now youcompare me to Haman. What’s next, when will you call me a Nazi or compare me to Hitler? Actually you’ve come quite close to it, calling me a maskil, and then suggesting that the maskilim caused the churban in Europe. Yet all the while, I never, nto once, ever made any pejorative statements about you personally. I find that tellingly interesting. I also find you unworthy of my continuing in this conversation. I will no longer respond to your posts.
the discourse on this thread has crossed away from the original story line – a conservative clergyman with an orthodox background who supports a “humanatarian” hamas terrorist. Let us save our disgust for senter and his ilk and leave each other and whatever subset of Torah true Judaism they associate with alone.
cantoresq & jent1150 please be civil towards each other and to whatever subset of Torah true Judaism they associate with.
to #65…mr mdlevine …did the YWN hire you to be refree ? if not let the moderator decide what should be said..yasher koach.