Two weeks ago, I answered a woman’s question about her husband’s drinking. (And this was sent to me weeks before Purim!) She was concerned that his drinking had escalated from just kiddush on Shabbos to nightly shots. In my response, I tried to educate her about alcoholism, as she was wondering if her husband was in fact an alcoholic. While I wasn’t about to label him as an alcoholic, as I felt that was not something I could do with any certainty based on a short e-mail, I was concerned with creating awareness on her part—and hopefully her husband’s part, as well. It can be a slippery slope and, particularly if someone has an addictive personality in the first place, it can lead to a dangerous place.
I was quite surprised by the number of e-mails I received in response to my column. In fact, I would say I received more e-mails in response to this column than in response to any previous column. This leads me to believe that although I deal with so many serious and sometimes life-altering situations, the issue of alcohol consumption tapped into many individual’s concerns and fears. This may be a bigger problem than many of us realize.
Maybe a simple “l’chayim” at a simcha is more than a simple “l’chayim.” Maybe the gentlemen who walk around shul on Shabbos or at a simcha with a bottle, looking for compliant men to drink with, are a lot more harmful to themselves and others than we’d like to believe. Maybe we all need to take a much closer look at this situation, which appears to be more pervasive than some of us are willing to acknowledge.
Though I did receive a few e-mails from men who felt that I came down much too hard on the subject of the column, the majority of the e-mails I received expressed the opposite feeling. I’ve decided to print some of these e-mails so that you can all decide for yourselves whether my response missed the mark on a very important issue and whether something needs to be done to stem this tide.
Here goes:
I read about the wife whose husband obviously has a drinking problem. Two drinks per night after work is not “normal,” especially when he’s telling his wife it’s not her business. Please. It seems to me that you are minimizing the situation. There is so much alcohol consumed by Orthodox Jews for seemingly “celebratory” reasons that it is no wonder that some will develop serious issues as a result. Alcoholism can wreak havoc on families of all types, whether religiously affiliated or not. There are many among us, I’m sure, who are afraid to “come out” and admit they have a problem. There is such a stigma in our circles on anyone who has any kind of problem. That is part of the reason why I’m upset with your advice. If she is so concerned and is writing to you for help, then clearly there is a problem. She needs to get support first, and hopefully he will as well.
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As I was sitting at the computer, doing some business e-mails and sipping some Canadian Club (whisky), my wife came over with your article in this week’s Five Towns Jewish Times about alcohol drinking. It sounds like you were writing about me. (My wife, who I’m copying on this e-mail, also sounds like the letter writer.)
I think you gave mostly sensible advice—up to a point. Men and women are different. This fellow sounds like a nice guy, who is definitely not abusing alcohol, kinda like me. In fact, you could have mentioned that alcohol has many health benefits.
I would also add that, particularly in our circles, we live in a very stress-filled society—much different than the era in which the letter writer grew up. I share these sentiments. But the times are different now, and this is another factor in the equation.
At the end of the day, I think the benefits of moderate alcohol drinking are quite positive.
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This e-mail is in response to your recent article on alcohol abuse. I agreed with several of your points; however, I do feel that you minimized the severity of this woman’s problem. The fact is that it is not the amount of alcohol consumed that determines whether someone is an alcoholic. The visual of a “drunk” is what people picture when, in fact, one drink under the wrong circumstances is one drink too many.
Alcohol plays such a major role in Jewish lifecycles, and it is unfortunate that people think they must drink to show “simcha.” Times have changed, and we are not living in the biblical times of celebration when alcohol was different and the danger of driving while intoxicated was not an issue. Your response only placed emphasis on the extreme danger of drinking and not enough explanation on the fact that even minor drinking can be dangerous. This woman was reassured that her husband isn’t an alcoholic; how can you make that determination based on a letter written by his wife? I think she should have been directed to seek professional help and for her husband to be more formally evaluated.
I read your articles every week and appreciate them. However, sometimes I feel that certain topics can’t be answered in such a general format when they address such specific individuals.
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When I read your column last week, I felt as though you were talking about me and my husband. I have seen his drinking increase over the years, and it sometimes worries me. I’ve mentioned to him that I wish he would reserve his drinking (if he has to drink at all) to just Shabbos. He thinks I’m being a nag and tells me that it helps him unwind after particularly stressful days at work. I know that he is under a lot of pressure and do notice that he tends to seem more relaxed after he has a drink. So a part of me wonders whether he’s right and I should just let him do what he needs to do to calm down. So I am a bit confused about the whole thing.
But here’s the real point. Even if I were 100 percent convinced that any kind of drinking was too much drinking, how do I “make” him stop? I think for many of us women that’s the real question. We can voice our concerns—according to our husbands, “nag”—but that doesn’t mean they will listen to us. At least in my case, my husband doesn’t exactly jump at my commands or suggestions. So for me, there lies the real problem and the bigger problem. Many of us women just can’t make our husbands do anything.
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So I’m one of the guys that you would probably consider to have a drinking problem. I like drinking beer during the week, and I help myself to it when I want. On Shabbos I head for the wine and liquor. However, I’m never drunk; I’m able to hold down a very important and responsible job, and I do what I need to do for my family. When I was younger, I engaged in much worse behavior and was totally irresponsible and basically I was a good-for-nothing.
Honestly, I can’t imagine not having some kind of “help” in my life. Many people I know take medication, overeat, gamble, smoke cigarettes, or engage in other unacceptable behaviors. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a tough world out there, and many of us need something to help smooth out the edges.
Maybe someday I’ll wake up and decide that I don’t need or want alcohol in my life—and that will be a great day. Frankly, I would be overjoyed. But for now, it’s something that I enjoy and that I feel helps me stay calm and happy. My point is, I don’t like being judged. I don’t want my wife or my mother watching me and giving me a look like I’m the devil when I take a drink. I’m very responsible in most ways, and am trying to live a good life and do the right thing. I don’t want to feel like I’m under anyone’s microscope.
Everyone seems so busy judging one another. Maybe we should all just look at ourselves and try to do the best we can, and allow others to figure it out for themselves.
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I think this sampling of e-mails gives you a sense of the thinking out there on the subject of drinking. Clearly, it is not a simple issue, and there are many pieces to this puzzle. By printing these e-mails, hopefully I am encouraging future dialogue on this very important subject that will lead to more awareness, understanding, and resolution.
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29 Responses
Everything was put in this world for a purpose.
A little L’chayim at a simcha should not be written off as the drinker being an alcoholic.
On the other hand to much drinking should not be written off as the drinker being B’simcha!
And most importantly any pleasure that puts a strain on Shalom Bayis should be strongly reconsidered.
Responsibility for your own actions is the key to being a mentsch.
A cup of red wine or two with your meal each day is medically prudent for a healthy heart.
These men are all in DENIAL of their problems.
The Young Israel of Woodmere does not allow any liquor or beer in the building. At a Kiddush or Bar Mitzvah or Aufruf or Shalom Zachor only wine, grape juice, or soft drinks are allowed.One Five Towns Frum child is dead and there have been too many close calls with kids because of beer and alcohol. No adult goes home drunk from Shul on Shabbos. A few members quit the Shul over this . Most of them came back. The overwhelming majority of that one thousand family Shul are very happy about the policy. My deep respect for the Shul leadership and the Rabbi who took a gutsy stand on this.
I think this column is syptomatic of the American “disease” of blowing things way out of proportion. See Orchos Tzadikkim who says explicitly that dirnking wine in moderation in order to calm one’s nerves and the like is a benficial and positive thing to do, and it is only when one gets drunk and behaves in an inappropriate manner that makes drinking a negative activity. Please, all you “concerned” individuals out there, stop feeding so much information to the larger public who do not neccessarily know how to deal with that information. By this, i am specifically refferring to women who, as Rav Chaim Friedlander points out in his kuntras V’ya’da’ta ki Shalom Ahalecha, are prone to worrying and being fearful. Do not think that any friction in these couples’ shalom bayis will not largely become an accusation against those who got these women to start worrying. Yes, it’s a nice idea to have women be informed so they can pick up on a problem in its early stages and prevent a disaster from happening. But, one must always way the potential benefits against the potential cost in damages. In this case, let us assume that perhaps one out of 100 men might be saved from becoming alcoholics through the medium of columns such as these (but really i think that’s stretching it and i don’t think the numbers would amount to more than one out of 1000 or perhaps even 10,000 -within the frum community that is-) but what about the 60 out of 100 marriages that will experience some degree of friction and disharmony as a result of women unneccesarily worrying and men feeling that their wives are “breathing down their necks” and nagging and getting on their nerves (as is clearly evident from the responses)?! We live in a society wherein the institution of marriage has become ever so fragile and therefore the care which we must excercise to not cause, chalila, even the slightes degree of friction between husband and wife is that much greater. To me it would seem that the in this case the potential cost of damages far outweighs the potential gain – yatza scharo b’hefseido! And even if you will insist that “still, something has to be done!” – so, maybe you could write about types of behavior that are indicative of the onset of alcoholism without talking about the drinking itself. Certainly, you will not have the audacity to argue with the Orchos Tzadikim that moderate drinking for the right purpose is beneficial (and healthy!)…so in the overwhelming majority of cases that activity is no cause for concern. Rather, speak of the middos ra’os that become manifest with the wrongful drinking that is associated with alcoholism and which are at times the root thereof. That way, women will only begin to become concerned if there truly is cause for concern.
Just to end off with a note of advice: I believe that many of these “false alarm” columns could be staved off if the writers would excersize care in not publishing them until having them reveiwed by an emmesser talmid chacham.
Maybe not tzum zach 100% – but my son in Eretz Yisroel just told me that on Purim one bachur got so drunk that he nebach thought he could fly and jumped out the winodow of his dira! 🙁 I don’t know how he is – Hatzlaha Isreal took him to hospital!
The Rambam’s shvil HaZahav – middle of the road – moderation in everything rings out loud here!!
THE PASUK SAYS “T’NU SHEICHAR L’OVEID V’YAYIN L’MAREI NEFESH”.
So, who goes & picks up the kids from their friends’ at night…the under-the-influence Dad, or the long-suffering Mom?
What example is being shown to their children? How about Mom’s disapproving “looks”, mutterings, & the loss of Shalom Bayis? What happens if there’s an argument? Does Dad hit out?
There are many things to consider that were not addressed in the article. However, one thing is very clear…these 2 men who responded don’t want to stop drinking. THAT is the problem…their wives should go to Al-Anon to get some support, because it’s obvious these guys are not giving up the booze any time soon.
My friends, do any of you have any idea what is actually going on out there? Do you know that young boys are getting flat out drunk all over the place at Aufrufs, Sheva Braco, Shalom Zachors…etc. Let me tell you all a scary thing that I recently saw. I was in a popular hotel in Yerushalayim for Shabbos. After the seuda, there were many people milling about the hotel lobby. In walks a group of yeshiva bochurim. When I say yeshiva bochurim, I mean the boys that each and every one of us would sell our daughters to in the near future! From the BEST yeshivos. They sit down at the back table and pull out a few bottles and promptly began to down them. My wife and I were quite stunned. Upon seeing how stunned we were, someone turned to us and said “This goes on all the time here”. We have a real problem on our hands. Why aren’t the Rabbonim BANNING!! alcohol at Simchos? !! Young boys are getting drunk! What are we waiting for??
Alcohol is addictive it first kills your relationships then it kills your soul and then it kills you! I have seen many frum men on Shabbos wobbling home in a total disorientation state of mind wondering if they can make it to the family Shabbos table without passing out on their way home.
This is a problem like other problems our community and Robonim avoid!
#1 your right but you missed something some women will nag their husband about drinking nightly when there is no other problem just the fact that he drinks accually she’s making the sholom bayis issue out of it in short if the drinking is not causing a problem dont nag
Just a question for post #5 (written by “25”). While you may have some well meaning points, what is this business of bringing the Orchos Tzadikim about moderate drinking???!! The Baalei Mussar ALL discuss important points such as Shmiras Haloshon and many other middos. Do you also make sure to promote every one of those? This is the Orchos Chaim that you want to bring to peoples attention? Don’t you think it may apply differently when drinking is out of hand? Let’s try to be machmir on the rest of the Orchos Chaim first. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
there wont be a solution to this problem until the men who we are talking about will acknowledge the fact that maybe theyve gone too far.
#5 Amen! you hit it right on exactly what i wanted to say
This thread appears to highlight the great divide between the way men and women look at throwing back a bottle or two. I’m with the guys on this one… as for #1, it should be pointed out that Shalom Bayis is a two-way street, and if a husband wants to enjoy a beer with his burger or a bloody mary along with his scrambled eggs for Sunday Brunch, then her denying his enjoyment by nagging and whining could be destroying Shalom Bayis more than his sip.
-MK
wonderful “opinions” most of you, but quite frankly, as an ER nurse, a lot of people are brushing off this topic knowing nearly nothing about the subject and the extent of the actual problem.
There are way too many of our frum teenage boys who end up in the emergency room with a sky high blood alcohol level that is sky high, because they see their father/ family member drinking casually and think that it’s okay. The torah clearly designates for us when and how much to drink and while I do firmly believe that the phenols and phytochemicals in RED wine are healthy (one glass a night with dinner) you need to be prudent about that, and the way you role model it. Is it a glass of wine with dinner or a deep sigh about what a hard day you have had with a shot of tequilla? Be responsible- your children are watching the coping mechanisms and behaviors you are displaying.
Since any addiction is typically accompanied by denial, The best way to really determine if you have a drinking problem is with the following (study tested) CAGE evaluation tool. If the answer is is “Yes” to two or more of the following questions, you have a clinical alcohol problem:
1) C- Cut down: Have you ever felt that you should cut down on your drinking?
2) A- Annoy: Have people annoyed you by critisizing your drinking?
3) G- Guilty: Have you ever felt bad or guilty about your drinking?
4) E- Eye opener: Have you ever had a drink first think in the morning to calm your nerves or get rid of a hangover?
Please be careful about what you role model- your children, especially your teenage boys are watching.
I was at a vort and saw a group of yeshiva boys who came from veery prominent homes, from one of the top yeshivos walk in and immediatly went to the “bottles” checking them out. They picked out the most expensive one and promptly sat down to drink. How are boys who are supposed to be learning all day know the difference between the labels?? I was shocked to see their expertise in the area
I’m sorry I didn’t read the initial letter being referred to. Buy I’d like to comment that there are 3 types of drinkers: social, abusive, and dependent. There is a fine line between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence; an individual may not be aware when he or she crosses it. Factors such as disruption of shalom bayis, eg, one family member being upset with the alcohol consumption of another, and the drinker defending his or her behavior, is a red flag. Using alcohol to relax is another red flag, indicative of alcohol abuse. Social drinkers don’t use alcohol for relaxation nor do they need to defend their drinking. Something to watch out for is an increase in the frequency and amount of alcohol being consumed, because tolerance occurs. This is indicative of a growing dependency.
Everything in moderation; that is the torah way.
#17 that was powerful how can i agree with #5 and now with you i think i might have a problem
I am addicted to The Yeshiva World
Several people here said that when the men drink and the women nag them, it’s the women who are creating the Shalom Bayis problem.
As I recall, the purpose of a wife IS to criticize her husband (in an appropriate and gentle manner, of course) and if a man tells his wife it’s “None of your business” he doesn’t undertand the concept of marriage or Ezer K’negdo.
Drinking, like so much else, becomes a means of escapism, so people don’t deal with their problems. When the Rambam writes that a person MUST walk into his home in a good mood (since we’re throwing around Gedolim quotes), he doesn’t preface it by saying it can be with the aid of a few drinks.
Dealing with stress can be done (in most cases) by logically thinking things through, and a great idea would be to learn Chovos HaLevavos Shaar HaBitachon because if you do that, almost nothing will stress you out.
Instead of taking sides, I think we all need to put an objective scope on the issue and realize that some people are becoming addicted to alcohol and their behavior is improper. Whether because it teaches kids (like the ten year old who drank himself unconscious in Monsey on Purim) or is just irresponsible on its own (like the parents who didn’t see what the ten year old was doing) or is lewd or dangerous (drinking and driving happens in the frum world too.)
It is definitely an issue, and people need to take their heads out of the bottle and the worry bag to look at it.
IMHO it starts when teens are allowed to drink unchecked at smichos
There is a law of age 21 for a reason, if we’d start enforcing this maybe it’ll solve some of the problem
An Alcoholic in denial
Many excellent comments.
This is off-topic, but i would like to coment on a point of #10 that unfortunatly seems to bother no one. And i quote
“When I say yeshiva bochurim, I mean the boys that each and every one of us would SELL OUR DAUGHTERS TO in the near future! From the BEST yeshivos.”
How low we’ve sunk.
What #10 meant was “each and every one of us would BUY for our daughters”. I don’t think that changes Baal Boose’s comment.
To #25 Baal Boose. I’m glad someone picked that up. I used that word specifically. It is the sad truth. I know it’s off the thread topic yet it is relevant. Not only will our daughters be marrying these boys, you will have to take a home equity loan to finance the talmid chacham & future gadol. And he’s getting plastered at simchos! Maybe the price should come down!!
(27) The “price” will come down with home prices as the ‘wealth effect’ reverses.
It is up to the girls’ parents. They can stop making offers, and the buying and selling will cease.
i agree its a big problem , we hide it thru simchas and we look 4 a oppertunty . i have my self have cut drinking out ,[ like one drink @ a simcha ] the first drink is nice ,the second drink is kool , the third is obusesive . ” lets not fool ourselfs ” think b/4 drink…ziet gezunt.