Dear Yeshiva World readers,
I am saddened to write this letter as unfortunately I need an outlet to express my anger and disappointment with a kashrus service based in North America. I do not wish to point fingers at any particular organization or Rabbis but I believe that the trend is prevalent in most major Kashrus organizations. The Kashrus business as we know is a billion dollar business in North America. While there are distinct advantages and problems inherent in the “globalization” of the Kashrus “business” increasing demands for kosher supervision and certification for product. This has led to Kashrus organizations whether private or public becoming multi million dollar businesses. It is not unheard of for a medium sized kashrus organization to have hundreds of mashgiachim. As a side note: this leads to another whole subset of “public servants” of people relying on a Kashrus organization for employment instead of seeking mainstream employment. Kashrus services are openly competing for national product certification.
With the unfortunate events of Monsey, Kashrus organizations have rightfully tightened up on Kashrus certification. Unfortunately they have also taken this as a cue for them to do whatever they wish under this banner of the new “kashrus crusade”. Small businesses buckle under the weight of the rules placed on them such as full time salaried mashgiachim etc. Furthermore in smaller cities there are no alternative Kashrus organizations so organizations are run as cartels, merchants are treated with a mafia like tone often treated as if they were suspects and criminals. Is this what Kashrus has become? It is time to clean up this mess before it becomes further institutionalized.
Thank you,
A concerned consumer.
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46 Responses
Pardon my ignorance, but what is untowardly about being employed in a kashrus organization, instead of your undefined ”mainsteam employment”?
Deleted.
How do you know it’s bullying that’s driving the Kashrus Orgs to act this way (assuming you’re right) and not that the market (us) is demanding these extra precautions?
While kashrus organizations may have made it more expensive for their clientele there is absolutely no evidenced pointing to these very same organizations doing anything to increase kashrus standards?
In the NY metro area there are a plethora of symbols and organizations plastering the walls of establishments that any self respecting Torah Jew makes sure to avoid. Yet, these businesses are thriving.
Their have been attempts to create community supported kashrus similar to what is available in many smaller cities ( Denver,Memphis,Detroit St.Louis etc) which have a tighter oversight and are not tempted by dollars signs. This has not worked.
I think that Rabbonim can galvanize community reaction and force this issue. They need us to put pressure on them to create something that works.
You should take your concern up with your local Rabbi who is not on the local Vaad. This posting can easily lead to names being named and lots of Loshon Hara.
In the meantime kudos to the organizations and store owners for allowing the consumers the continued security of knowing Kashrut is the #1 priority.
For a site like Yeshiva world to publish this letter it is quite surprising. While I am not debating there may be problems with Kashrus worldwide, this letter has little substance. The writer has provided absolutely no details as to the nature of their criticism.
The writer mocks those that work for these agencies as “public servants”? Those employed have legitimate employment and support their families. Why does the writer have to criticize one choice of employment. This is no different than someone working for a large US corporation. Why the negativity.
As for full time mashgichim, that is only a requirement in situations where there is a legitimate kashrus concern by the certifying agency.
When we have scandals, the public cries that the agencies are not doing enough, yet when they try to tighten the oversight, they get criticized for being machmir.
As for YW, you should carefully choose what letters you print, and if you are really concerned about kashrus, you should do a full expose, with real stories and situations, not some half baked comment off of someones bitter pen.
problems in the last year with kashrus:
*onions
*strawberries
*chicken(trief, and change of hechsherim)
*lettuce
*broccoli
*cauliflower
these problem are not normal, and something has to be done about it.
As a former mashgiach, I know the business from the inside. Owners are generally untrustworthy. Many times, the owners who are trustworthy are treated harshly because of the owners who are unscrupulous, irreligious, etc. And I do feel bad for them. And I can remember some owners who did treat me with respect even though they “don’t need a mashgiach..and shouldn’t have to pay.” It sounds like the person who wrote this letter is an owner. Only the kashrus industry is “a billion $ business…mafia…” not chas-veshalom the irreligious pizza shop owner who would substitute trafe cheese for kosher without batting an eyelash. So, Mr./Mrs. Owner, here’s the scoop: I hope you make loads of money in your store. But I’ll make it not worth your while to serve me trafe, cholov stam, unchecked vegetables (bugs), meat with fish/milk, pre-packaged foods with no hechsher. How’s that?
When you say that Kashrus is a billion dollar industry are you refering to the sum total of dollars spent on kosher foods or the fees paid to Kashrus Agencies and Mashgichim. If the latter I suspect that the figure quoted is greatly exaggerated. I don’t believe that if you add up fees paid to the hundreds of Kosher Certifications throughout the world you will even come close to a billion dollars.
Kashrus is a business and it gainfully employs a lot of people. As to the actual service (or hechsher)a certifying agency provides by affixing their sticker/symbol to a product is up to each individual to ascertain for themselves. If you buy it, you feed the notion that there is a demand for it. If you let it be known that you would buy it without the 3rd and 4th hechsher affixed to the package, perhaps the owner/distributor of the product will listen. Nobody WANTS to pay for 3 hechsherim, but anyone WILL if it generates more sales. Thats just how things work in a free market system.
I once asked a propular “heimishe” hechsher in the NYC area exactly what added level of a hechsher I am buying with their sticker on a bag of produce already stamped with the symbol of a major national “certifying agency”. The answer, “nothing”. They rely on the national agency, but the distributor feels the product would sell better with a “heimische” hechsher on the package, so he allows them to use his sticker (for a fee, of course). In short, as faras the kashrus of the product was concerned, the added sticker was useless, as a merketing tool, it was priceless. Think back a few years ago just before Pesach and the problem with vynegar.
Sounds like a krisis to me!
#10 (ploniebenplonie)”But I’ll make it not worth your while to serve me trafe, cholov stam, unchecked vegetables (bugs), meat with fish/milk, pre-packaged foods with no hechsher. How’s that…”
Yes, cholov stam is in the same category as treifus (sarcasm)…..thank you, this is what the letter is talking about.
A Mashgiach that worked for OU and another well know heimishe hashgacha said after seeing it all- “You can not trust any Hechsher and owner when it comes to money”!!!
Well about time you relized that the kashrus business is a business just like all businesses!!
I was wondering about that when I saw a
Hershey’s Twizzlers bag with some heimishe sticker on it.
Did he really watch his special batches or is he anyway counting on the OU? I assume the latter.
I believe Matt’s cookies now has an OU also, instead of half-moon or whatever it had before. Yet it’s still relabeled by Kitov/Zetov. There, I assume, it’s a special run (with the exact same ingredients), but I wonder.
So if the whole point of having your own hechsher is that you do not trust the big ones, then by indicating you trust a big hechsher for this product, how can you not trust them for the rest? And if you don’t trust the big hechsher for the rest of their certified products, then how can you trust them for this product?
I see nothing wrong with people working in hashgacha; done properly, it is a clean parnassa that is mizakeh the rabbim to eat Kosher. Sounds praiseworthy, to me.
IMHO its us the consumers that demand every delicacy under the sun, restaraunts that serve every type of cuisine, catering fancy affairs etc etc.
Yes, Kashrus was a lot simpler when we didnt have such “outrageous” demands and such refined tatses
It’s so easy to blame it on everyone else but if we supply the demand………
In regard to Heimeshe Hechsheirim, remember the consumer has certain criteria for which he relies on the Heimeshe Hechsher vs the larger organizations. If a product does not need further supervision other than what the larger organizations give, so be it. But I want to know it from the Heimeshe Rov who recognizes my concerns and therefore I will look for his sticker. Other products may need more. Again, I the consumer, want someone I have faith in who is using a higher or recognizes my calliber of Kashrus standards
# 17, almost every “heimische” certifying agency has to rely on the major national hechsherim at some point,because of the many many ingredients that go into today’s goods. Chemicals, preservatives, spices, etc. are often made by major companies in far out places that local rabbanim can not get into. The ehrlicha ones speak to the OU or other major org. and find out who gives the Hechsher in the plant and what standeards are used etc. and if these things meet their criteria for granting a Hechsher, will then put their sticker on it. This is fine, because they are certifying that all the ingredients meet the particular standards to which they adhere, and which the people who rely on them are expecting. It is possible that in certain plants the major national Kashrus org. will rely on a Psak that a Chasidishe Posek will not want to rely on. (Breuers will do the same thing, and tell their Kehilla in their Pesach bulletin that they can use a particular OU product which they have thoroughly checked out to insure that it meets the Breuers standards. They will not give a blanket Heter to use any OU product) The less ehrlicha hechsherim will just put a sticker on a product and rely on the national org. This is Genaiva. The point of having your own Hechsher is not that “you don’t trust the big ones” but that you have certain standards or Chumros that the big ones do not neccessarily use. All Hechsherim rely on the OU, and trust them implicitly to tell them who is the Mashgiach and/or Rav Hamachshir on a particular product, and what Chumros or Kulos were used in the making of this product. They then decide if it meets their standards.
to #15..untill you wont post the name & tele. of that mashgiach so we can verefy, your words are totaly irrelevant..”pesi yamin l’chol d’vor..”(mishley)
to letter writer…by using the term kashruth “crusade” seems to us that #7, ny100k, is right..ehrliche yidden dont use that term ,bnei torah also not, so you have some grievance against hashgocho..(you have anything with osama y’mshvz, he uses this term alot…)
When it comes to money everyone is suspect..
Matzo’s for Pesach went up this year because of the wheat shortage. In fact the wheat used for these mato’s was harvested last year. What justification is there for these increases.
Why does meat and dairy ( cholv yisroel) go up before a Yom Tov, Can it be because the manufactureres and retailers have us over a barrel .. you bet..
Another problem is when the masgiach is employed and PAID by the very same establishment that he is supposed to supervise.
So how strictand’or vigilant is the mashgiach going to be, if HIS parnasa rests on the estalishment’s owner liking him?????
#14: I personally eat cholov stam. But when an irreligious owner advertised his restaurant as “Cholov Yisroel” and had USDA cholov stam in the milk machine it was very telling. You see I found tarfus in his store (not necessarily his, to be fair) but therein was demonstrated his huge problem with the dishonesty. And yes, it’s a huge chutzpah to the Frum community that patronizes an establishment that claims to be cholov yisroel and isn’t.
#25 I quit jobs, and some of the restaurants that lied and cheated closed up. Hashem took care of me anyway. But you? perhaps maybe not for you…
#10, if you can prove what your saying, you’ll have a thumbs up from me.
#24, I did not pay more(than the usual increase) for matzah this year, i suppose because some bakeries are not “scamming businesses”
in reference to CHALAV STAM, wheather its mutar or not is not the issue. when a store owner says he uses only chalav yisroel and really uses chalav stam he is not only a thief and shaygetz but also a kal she’bekalim.
and btw, call it by its real name, CHALAV AKUM (not chalav stam to minimize its isur.)
now adays chalav akum is alot more problamatic than it was in the days of HAGAON HATZADIK R’ MOSHE FEINSTEIN ZATZAL. in that with the current operations they do on the cows, the milk may actually be traif.
Without having to mention names or bring proofs, let’s think about this logically. If you are in the Kashrus business, and it is a business, and you find a problem with one of your big money accounts, you will definitely try and find a kula (especially in a case of Hefsed Meruba)to rely on, and that kula maybe ok with you, but how about the consumer ? Shouldn’t we have the choice of being able to decide what kulas we want to rely on ? Given the choice and the fact that we’re spending the same money either way, I’d choose the product without the kulas (since hefsed meruba shouldn’t be the consumer’s consideration). As long as kashrus cerification is a business, there is an intrinsic “conflict of interest”. I’ve heard a novel idea presented and here it goes: How about having a completely independent Kashrus organization that is funded by the public consumer (we’re paying for the kashrus anyway as it is built in to the price of the product), not the manufacturer, and is therefore unbiased with no “conflict of interest”, with the goal being to provide their customer (namely the consumer) with straight unbiased info and a standard that the consumer is satisfied with.
To lgbg – leaving the chicken problem aside, what is not normal about bug problems in fruits and vegetables?
Until you (or someone else) can devise a way to grow these items so that they will NOT become infested with bugs and worms, a mashgiach will be needed to check and clean these food items. And that is the only one of his assigned tasks.
A former Mashgiach Supervisor for a local Vaad.
#21 whats your problem with #10 you follow all of the chumras’ of r’ moshe in order to eat cholov stam or to you need to fill your needs and wants in a “kosher” way. In these trying times we should be taking on chumras of cholov yisrael which by the way r’ moshe is a daas yachid and when to we paskin like him. Surely that cholov yisrael is readly available everywhere its seems that your are just and M.O. whose jeolous that he can’t overcome his yetzer hara like everyone else you is eating cholov yisrael.
hey while we are at it why not insist that the major brands like the OU require Cholov yisroel products? this is not a frum issue but rather supply and demand, the big companies like entimans or hersheys wouldn’t feel the difference in expenses (any cholov yisroel dairy servicing such giant could make their money in volume) but would notice (certainly in a few demographic locations) an increase in sales.
To #21
While I agree that Cholov S’taam should in no way be compared to Treif, you made it sound as though Rav Moshe Feinstein Z’TL gave a “Blanket Heter” for eating Cholov S’taam. In reality he goes to great lengths to find a Heter for it as so many people consume it. He concluded that it is allowed but that a G-D fearing Jew should be Machmir.
#14 educatedJew says:
“#10 (ploniebenplonie)”But I’ll make it not worth your while to serve me trafe, cholov stam, unchecked vegetables (bugs), meat with fish/milk, pre-packaged foods with no hechsher. How’s that…”
Yes, cholov stam is in the same category as treifus (sarcasm)…..thank you, this is what the letter is talking about.”
True, challav stam is completely MUTTAR according to R’ Moshe but, if an owner advertises as chalav yisroel and serves chalav stam, he is undermining the hechsher just as much as if he serves traif. Midvar Sheker Tirchak. The mashgiach’s job is to ensure that the hechsher advertised is correct and that includes no traif and no chalav stam if the establishment is advertised as “kosher cholov yisrael”
Please clarify:
Do most people think that cholov yisroel is a chumra?
From what I understood, R’Moshe Z”ZTL gave a heter in specific times and situations to eat cholov stam….
Just to be clear, I have a problem with people who follow, say, Reb Moishe’s hetter to take money and learn in kolel and then farshmutz Reb Moishe’s hetter on cholov stam. The owner of the dairy restaurant that I worked in poopooed the cholov yisrael fraud in his restaurant and that is the only issue at the heart of the matter in kashrus: Can you trust the baalabuss?
#37 ploniebenplonie, it seems I misunderstood your position regarding your earlier comment, i’m sorry.
But look how many professional cow milkers came weve unearthed. Who knew so many among us milked cows for a living? I’m refering to
#29 “in that with the current operations they do on the cows, the milk may actually be traif. ”
May actually???? What is may actually??? Yes or No??? Cholov Akum, based on a maybe, could likely, but not sure, so better not to. On your advice, I added another string on my tzitzis today because one may actually rip with all the moving I do (sarcasm).
To #36 – Kiruvwife-
To clarify Rav Moshe Feinstein’s opinion, he states in his sefer Igros Moshe; Yore Deah, Chalek Alef: Siman Mem Zayin, that since the government regulates heavily the quality of milk produced for public consumption, we can rely on the fact that there has been no treif milk ( or other additives) put in with the cow’s milk. His reasoning is, that if they were to be caught doing so, as presumably they would due to heavy FDA regulation of the milk, they would incur very large fines which would offset any financial benefit they may obtain by such a substitution. This would therefore be as reliable as though a Jew were watching its production since the purpose of the Jew monitoring the milk, is to verify that nothing other than pure cow’s milk is provided for sale to the consumer. However, he notes that for a ” Baal Nefesh ” – a more religiously scrupulous Jew, it would be appropriate to be Machmir. From Rav Moshe’s words we can see that he does view observing Chalav Yisroel as a Chumrah, albeit a worthy one to undertake, though not obligatory. I hope this clears the issue up for you. All the best.
A Rav once told the story that when he was studying for his smicha, he quickly figured out while learning the halachos of kashrus and Shabbos that when it comes to kashrus, most people are unnecessarily stringent, and when it comes to Shabbos, we would all be shocked and horrified to find that most of us have never kept it properly in our lives. The kashrus keeps getting more and more unnecessarily strict at the expense of too many others.
Re: Number 19. So what you are saying is that at times the added hechsher adds something and at times it is simply a marketing tool. I’m not looking to pick on “heimische hechsherim”. A few years ago, I asked a national kashrus agency exactly what I should infer from the fact that their symbol appeared on a container of milk bottled under the label of a large regional grocery chain. I specifically asked as follows: I am not makpid to eat only chalav yisroel and would buy the milk without your symbol, is your symbol guaranteeing that there is only cows milk in this bottle? Is this some level up from chalav stam? Their answer was a simple “of course not, we have a contract to supervise their products and this is one of those products that they asked we put their symbol on”. In short it was a merketing tool. The milk did not NEED a hechsher (if one relies on R” Moshe and also drinks chalv stam), the symbol adds NOTHING related to the kashrus of the milk, however the chain feels that having it on the bottle will help sales in some way.
So, the next time you buy a product with 9 hechsherim, the free market principle of caceat emptor (let the buyer beware) should be applied. Ask yourself, am I paying more for this package, which merely adds a sticker with a heimishe name(s), but contains the exact same item, because of the cost incurred with affixing the sticker (the hechsher) while the hechsher adheres to no new standard of kashrus the “regular” hechsher provides, OR am I truly paying for a special run (or special ingredient) which will add another level to the kashrus (bishul yisroel, not made on shabbos any one of a thousand other things one may come up with). If the consumer doesnt ask, you cant fault those in the business who charge!! If we as consumers are dumb enough to pay for nothing, then we will be charged for it. That is the free market system.
#30 You claim to speak logically, yet you seem to presume that all people have the same low moral standards as you. If you rely on and respect any specific Rav, then you can trust him to be morally objective and not be concerned of making the big buck.
To # 39. Thank you for your explanation. I don’t feel though that I have full clarity. After reading your post and discussing this further with others more knowledgeable than myself, I have learned that cholov yisroel is clear in the shulchan aruch, not “labeled” as a chumra. From your explanation, R’ Moshe gave a heter based on government regulations…which I understand to mean…it is mutar under the current circumstances…but it is not a chumra to eat cholov yisroel. Maybe I am not clear as to the context of chumra on this topic.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding.
I was also inquiring as to what the “hamon am” is understanding regarding cholov yisroel.
#42 – It’s a shame that you choose to speak in a derogatory manner and choose to direct insults at me, especially since you don’t even know me. It just so happens that my concerns and suggestions that I mentioned above (in comment #30) were the result of discussions with very well respected people in Kashrus, and my comments were a summary of their concerns for our spiritual welfare, as expressed by theses respected Rabbonim. It’s not always the Rabbonim who are calling the shots, especially in the large Kashrus organizations. It is a business, and I am sure that business considerations are coming into play. If you have any concern about what you ingest, I suggest you do some objective investigating before disparaging people you don’t even know. Chulenteater – Have another piece of kugel with your chulent and don’t be concerned.
Wow. And to think that so many people go to Hotels for Pesach!!!!
To #21 etal
For someone who is makpid not to eat cholov stam, it IS cholov akum, or dare i say TREIF.
The same goes for machine matza for someone who is makpid to only use hand matza.
47 NOT true
I have spoken to someone who worked for the OU for many years and is extremely knowledgeable about ingredients and processing. He told me that today milk, even if you are not makpid on cholov yisroel, must have a hechshir. Processing and preservatives have changed since Rav Moshe z’tzl gave the heter on cholov stam. So even if you’re not looking for cholov yisroel you still have to check for some kind of a reliable hechsher to make sure that the milk (or milk product) is KOSHER, i.e. the OU.
re: # 47. Thats one of the dumbest things I have ever read.
re: #49. I called the OU. I asked them specifically what the OU symbol on a bottle of Shop Rite milk meant for someone who is not makpid on chalav yisroel. Their answer? NOTHING. Some companies pay to have a certification, and have it put on as many items as possible.
In short. Kashrus symbols are sometimes used as marketing symbols, cheapening the value of the kashrus symbol.