A group of Neturi Karta staged a midnight protest in Monsey, on Motzei Shabbos. Their problem? A Selichos event that has music.
The group of 5 extremists stood outside the Atrium Plaza in Monsey, where a large event was being held.
One pickup truck staged a counter-protest.
See how in the attached video.
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40 Responses
I hate to say it but I don’t care if they’re neturei karta, satmar or young Israel, they are actually right on this one thing. How in heavens name does music come to selichos? I know it’s become an “in” thing to do but maybe it’s time people actually do what they’re supposed to do in Elul and Tishrei- תשובה. Does everything in yiddishkeit need to be watered down? Selichos became a concert? Seems like there’s no “heart” left to the yiddishkeit of so many. Then people wonder why so many go off the derech? Because yiddishkeit has become just something so many do because that’s what they grew up doing, it’s what all our neighbors are doing but there is minimal deeper meaning to it. At best it’s about a dress code. Your children see right through it.
I actually think they are right in what they are protesting about. i just don’t think its worth missing their own saying Slichos for it.
love those guys
Are neturei karta m’zera shel Avrohom Avinu?
I don’t know if they are right in protesting even if they disapprove. Maybe these musical selichos fests are a kiruv thing. We don’t know how Hashem views them. If it’s not your thing go to a regular selichos. If it warms your heart to Yiddishkeit go to a musical one. I don’t know. I’m a woman,I never go to selichos.
why do you call them “neturei karta”??????
neturei karta people r the anti zoinisrs …no connection with this!!!!
talmidchochom, they are but with a good dose on Genghis Kahn mixed in.
uncleMo, it is not the addition of music per se but the wrong type of music. tefillah has 3 primary modes and the niggunim of traditional Jews were always chosen to match. these songs are a travesty.
Maybe some Yidden here have forgotten that THE BAIS HAMIKDASH Always has Leviim SINGING WITH PLAYING INSTRUMENTS – instruments are CLEARLY part of all Avoda in Bais Hamikdash! Al Karbonim all Davening. The INSTRUMENTS and Singing brought people to the Proper state of mind for Begging forgiveness. Chumash, Navi, Tehillim, Davening are Full of Instruction on How we are supposed to Use INSTRUMENTS when Praising And Supplicating to Hashem!
The problem of why Yidden have ignored the Clear Instructions about Instruments playing, and the fact that many Rebbeim say we are supposed to have Joy and Simcha that the “King is in the Field” And To Serve With Simcha And Ahava, is Because ASHKENAZIM in Europe in Middle Ages had the TERRIBLE INFLUENCE of the Catholic Church! With the Church influence of Dour, Ascetic, Harsh, Mean, Depressive, Angry Repressive Doctrines! This phenomena of Church influence of Ashkenazic groups from Europe is well researched.
“Ivdu es Hashem Besimcha, Bo’u Lefanav Birnanah”” and so many times that Singing And INSTRUMENTS are Clearly mentioned in Bais Hamikdash and in Tehillim, Davening, Chumash, Navi as Integral in our Davening!!!
לַמְנַצֵּחַ עַל-הַגִּתִּית לְאָסָף. INSTRUMENT.
שְׂאוּ-זִמְרָה, וּתְנוּ-תֹף; כִּנּוֹר נָעִים עִם-נָבֶל. INSTRUMENTS, etc etc etc etc Constant mentions of Instruments and song!
Leahleh; I’m not taking any position on this issue. I would just point out that all your references to music are referring to the Bais Hamikdash or Nevi’im. The Atrium is not the Bais Hamikdash so it’s not clear what you are trying to prove. Many shuls do sing by certain parts of davening on Shabbos & Yom Tov.
Al tikrei Neturei Karta ela Charuvei Karta.
Why, because selichos is a solemn time for tfilleh. its should be done with yireh…
purim is to rejoice, yom tovim, simchas bais hasoaiveh, wedding bar mitzvos etc. But dont make a purim spiel of every thing holy
Dovid Hamelech sang chapters of Tehillim with a harp before the Bet Hamikdash..
Miriam & the women sang and played musical instruments while saying the shira at the Yam Suf…
People should just leave others to daven and sing the nusach they wish w/o causing animosity and enmity..
Nobody appointed anybody to be G-D’s Cossack and write the rules.
… And some of the the Mizmors that Dovid sang have very serious content..
Nevertheless, this is how he wished to daven to Hashem..
Dunno if the bigger moshiguim are inside, outside, or both.
Yabia; What do they have to do with bukser?
@laehla, try to sell your shtus to someone else. the bais hamikdosh is not the atrium. even in the bais hamikdosh music was only played during makrev the korbanos, hallel, and simchas bais hashoeva. not during regular avoda and certainly not for solemn avodas such as on yom kippur. what @shimen said is %100 true and should be evident to every religious jew. i honestly cannot figure out why anyone would be against them.
@leahla, ivdu es hashem besimcha, lets all get drunk before kol nidrei and dance and sing all night long!!!!!
Music is one thing, but look how many people record with their smartphones. It’s one thing to do selichos a bit interesting, but when the audience is not into it, it becomes a theater, is a rachmunis.
I think the barometer is relatively simple – find me one Gadol, one Rebbe, one Rosh Yeshiva that follows your philosophy of “ivdu es hashem b’simcha” by having singing and music by selichos or the like. I don’t think you’ll find one. Did they also forget the above important concept, were they also influenced by the Catholic church as someone ridiculously stated above?!! The answer is simple, and obvious to people who want to see the truth. א גוט יאר to all!
יאעיקר אמירת הסליחות צריכה להיות בכוונה ובנחת ובמיתון ובהכנעה יתרה, ובפרט שלש עשרה מדות, וכמו שכתוב (משלי יח כג), תחנונים ידבר רש, ויש לו להבין מה שמוציא מפיו, בלב נשבר ונדכה, ולכן הנוהגים לומר ”עננו אבינו עננו” ו”עשה למען שמך” במהירות רבה ובחופזה לא יפה עושים, וצריך לבטל מנהגם ולאמרם במתון. ואלה שאונסים עצמם מן השינה ובאים לבית הכנסת להשמיע במרום קולם, בקול רנה, ואומרים הסליחות בקול רם ונשא כדרך ששרים פיוטים ונגינות, הרי הם יורשים תרתי גיהנם, ואדרבא יוצא שכרם בהפסדם. כי הלא זה שמם ”סליחות” ולא ”צעקות”. והחי יתן אל לבו בעת אמירת הוידוי והסליחות, לפשפש במעשיו ולחזור בתשובה שלימה ולהוסיף מצות ומעשים טובים, בהתקרבו ליום הדין שאז שוקלים זכיותיו ועוונותיו של כל אדם. וכבר אמרו דורשי רשומות ”אני לדודי ודודי לי” ראשי תיבות ”אלול”, וסופי תיבות בגימטריא ארבעים, כי בימי אלול ובעשרת ימי תשובה שהם ארבעים יום, התשובה מקובלת ביותר שהם ימי רחמים. ועוד סמכו על הכתוב ומל ה’ אלהיך ”את לבבך ואת לבב” זרעך, ראשי תיבות אלול, ושמכאן סמך למה שנהגו להשכים לומר סליחות בכל חודש אלול. [ילקוט יוסף מועדים עמוד יג. חזון עובדיה ימים נוראים עמוד כ, כה]
Wrong! All the Avodah (Davening, Karbanos, Even Karbon Chatos) in Bais Hamikdash was done with Singing and Musical Instruments, musical instruments are constantly listed in Chumash, Tehillim (Hallel) to accompany our prayers and supplications- many references are to Ivdu es Hashem Basimcha, u birnana and we are supposed to have Joy at this special Closeness in Elul to the King in the Field- we can have awe and Deep katana with joy. Only the Influence Of Goyish Church makes you think you need to scratch your eyes out in grief in Elul, that’s not anywhere in Tehillim or anywhere in Torah,
And if they think they know the “Right Way” to say Slichos, WHY ARENT THEY IN SHUL Crying their eyes out saying Slichos? Why are they Wasting Time Screaming in Public Streets?! Let them show in Torah where it says how to say Slichos, and let them do it
בהַֽלְלוּהוּ בִּגְבֽוּרֹתָ֑יו הַֽ֜לְל֗וּהוּ כְּרֹ֣ב גֻּדְלֽוֹ:
Praise Him with a shofar blast, praise Him with psaltery and lyre. גהַֽלְלוּהוּ בְּתֵ֣קַע שׁוֹפָ֑ר הַֽ֜לְל֗וּהוּ בְּנֵ֣בֶל וְכִנּֽוֹר:
Praise Him with timbres and dance, praise Him with stringed instruments and flute. דהַֽלְלוּהוּ בְתֹ֣ף וּמָח֑וֹל הַֽ֜לְל֗וּהוּ בְּמִנִּ֥ים וְעֻגָֽב:
5Praise Him with resounding cymbals, praise Him with resonant cymbals. ההַֽלְלוּהוּ בְּצִֽלְצְלֵי־שָׁ֑מַע הַֽ֜לְל֗וּהוּ בְּצִלְצְלֵ֥י תְרוּעָֽה:
Many people have a Pavlovian reaction to reading the words “Neturei Karta.” Whatever they (whoever “they” are) want or say — is automatically assumed to be wrong.
Just another sign (the instigators, the protesters and the commentators) of a lost and confused generation.
The churban claims yet more victims.
Moshiach Now!
Why didn’t YWN post the upcoming protest beforehand so that we could participate in the protest?
It appears the guys in the selichos concert were having a blast.
There’s nothing wrong with music at selichos in theory but I don’t think it means jumping up and down with guitars. My point is stop trying to be the Carlebach Shul. These things are usually a bad imitation of it anyway. Say selichos how you were brought up.
1… Dovid Hamelech played music along with his mizmors even though some were solemn..
Examples.. 6, 13 , 20… Some of those words can be found in slichos, or at least very similar.
2… Netziv explains that the sinas chinom that destroyed the Bet Hamikdash was that some talmidei chachamim considered their own avodah to superior to everyone else, and mocked them..
I’m not pro or con music during slichos…
But before I mock that, let me sure that I clearly understand the cryptic psukim which are not exactly siddur words, and that I can fully can teisch them and understand what I’m saying..( we weren’t taught that in yeshiva)
I also want to be sure I’m alert, oriented and daven everything b’kavanah and keep my eyes in the slichos, and not glance sideways at the next guy to see if he’s sleeping or really davening..
“……..Many people have a Pavlovian reaction to reading the words “Neturei Karta.” ….”
It’s not the dog’s fault that he’s Pavlovian… It’s Pavlov himself.
ZionGate but you don’t know how Dovid played those Mizmorim
after watching the posted clip, im left with the conclusoin that different people have different ways to show that they are broken hearted. my way isnt via jumping up and down to lively music. apparantly they have a derech where it is.
Pony quotes:
ואומרים הסליחות בקול רם ונשא כדרך ששרים פיוטים ונגינות, הרי הם יורשים תרתי גיהנם, ואדרבא יוצא שכרם בהפסדם. כי הלא זה שמם ”סליחות” ולא ”צעקות”. והחי יתן אל לבו בעת אמירת הוידוי והסליחות, לפשפש במעשיו ולחזור בתשובה שלימה ולהוסיף מצות
This is one view, granted.
Do you sing ASHAMVU, BOGADNU, out loud like many of us? Yes, I wrote SING…
I don’t know what Stolin does at slichos, but they they scream out loud the whole davening.
Breslover have their own way of davening…
So many different minhagim based on their own mesorah and minhag..
Let’s be tolerant.
“…..ZionGate but you don’t know how Dovid played those Mizmorim…”
No, I don’t.
But it’s now thousands of years later, and for various reasons, the regular saying of slichos is not connecting with them and with others.
We talked about this on the other thread.
Maybe they feel uplifted doing it their way… It’s not what I would do.
Look, chazzanim & choirs on a regular Shabbos was, and probably still is, frowned upon by many rabbonim.
Yet many people get inspiration from such davening.
I’m not going to get into somebody’s head what clicks and what doesn’t…. Let Hashem take care of that..
I know this isn’t exactly the same, but remember when Dovid Hamelech danced & jumped in a wild way in front of the Aron upon its liberation from Pelishtim, and his wife Michal was against it because she felt it was beyond his dignity , and she got punished.
@Zionsgate. Yoeli Lebowitz follows minhag stolin? Minhag Stolin is to sing ashamnu to lively music while jumping up and down like at a wedding? Please dont make minhag stolin into a mockery if you know nothing about it?
If someone has a tradition
for music then nu nu,
Doubtful
if any of those taking part did.
Therefore it was little more than inappropriate escapism
and NK (it can happen) were correct
Apushatayid,
That’s not what I wrote, I wrote 2 different things…