118 Responses

1. WOW! Thats quite an impressive idea. We need to figure out how to succesfully implement it.

2. Hashem should grant you and everyone their zivug biKarov.

   I think it’s a great idea that the girl bring a list of boys she already dated, though the shadchan will have to check things out to make sure the information hasn’t changed/is not mistaken, etc.

   But, I think it’s a great way to help someone find their “basherte”, by the girl adding names to the shadchan’s list.

3. Great idea! get cracking in making it work! Hatzlacah!

4. unfortunately will not work because many girls have been taught that it is not tznius to pass around the name of a boy you have gone out with.
   my wife has had numerous shidduch meetings in our home and this is the the response she gets from numerous mothers. Mind you these same mothers are more than willing to get names of boys from you

5. I think this is a great idea! It seems to me that everyone who is involved in shidduchim can greatly encourage the girls they are trying to help to give over this information as suggested by the writer. It can be as simple as that. In addition, the writer should send her idea to the L’Chaim organization based in Monsey, which has a list of shadchanim, and perhaps they will be willing to send out this idea to their list. She can also send a letter to the Jewish newspapers with her idea, and post it on other Jewish websites. As more people know about it, it will continue to spread through “word of mouth.” I agree with the writer that this is a good attempt to balance out the system, which at the moment is totally skewed in the boys’ favor.

6. may your single days be over bimheirah!

   maybe more hishtadlus must be done; maybe more emunah and bitachon is the answer… all depends on madreigah…

   BUT i am not impressed with the idea of sharing rejected propositions this way. a shadchan can get a list of talmidim from yeshiva… without his dating list! he should not be getting info from a girl who dropped him (or he dropped her) this exchange may work for a girl who gets to know the boy and redds it to her best freind for some reason, but it is not the norm.

   shidduchim is not a game of matching cards.its like kriyat yam suf for Hashem! does anyone think Hashem who created everything has such a difficulty of splitting the waters? but says every neshama has its perfect soulmate which changes every moment as we do mitzvos or c’v…
   and our mate-neshama too has ups and downs and this is ever changing and only Hashem knows what level we are all on… so bottom line, just be good and u will get good. the more we trust Him, the less we have to ‘feel like WE’ do!

7. Very good idea! Even if people are skeptical of it, there isn’t really any harm in trying, and the “numbers” do definitely help out the girls.
   Also, I believe that you may have touched upon a problem that shadchanim deal with without even noticing. I am very closest with one of the biggest shadchanim today, and while doing things such as the writer is suggesting is more productive, he ends up spending tons of time fielding people’s phone calls, and their constant inquiring over minute details. We still need people to calm down a bit with shidduchim so that the shadchanim can be more productive, and use their time for more “tachlis” things, such as the writer is suggesting.

8. Great Idea. To check if people are are still available can often be as simple as doing a search in onlysimchas.com for example. Perhaps the web can be harnessed in this endeavor somehow like shadchonim can set up their own internal database of names.

9. So if I understand, the girl will get a list of names, but at least these will be fresh names? Will the shadchan speak to the boys first before giving her the names, or will she/her parents still be in the position of having to check out a dozen names, with the real possibility of none of them being interested?

   You are on to something. I truly feel that when two people go out, if it’s not for them, they should try to come up with other suggestions for the shadchan. (This should not be mandatory; sometimes one might get bad enough vibes that s/he won’t want to take the responsibility of anyone else getting involved with this person.)

   Hatzlacha! May your very well intended and thought out ideas and sharing them with others bear fruit, and be the rest of the hishtadlus you need to make to meet your zivug.

10. It’s a great idea. Hatzlacha Rabba, Bezras hashem, in finding your Zivug

11. I think this is a great idea, but I have one suggestion to level out the playing field as opposed to shifting it in favor of girls. Why not have all shadchanim designate themselves as either boys shadchanim or girls shadchanim. This way, some shadchanim can follow the method suggested by this letter and other shadchanim can do the exact same thing with boys.

12. Hi all. Thanks for responding. I am the composer of this letter. This is actually my “first draft” that I sent to YW. I have a second version that was not posted but I hope they will post it as well becuase I clarfiy myself more and it will give more people a chance to respond.

13. You should be zoyche, together with all others in the parsha, to get engaged and married to your and their correct zivug b’koroyv.

    While people have general rules of who it is they want to go out with, exceptions are made, perhaps more frequantly then you realize. Given the speed with which people are willing to pass judgement, I believe most people will be very reluctant and hesitate to share who they went out with. While the group or class may make sense to you, others may percieve it as being all over the place and lacking focus. In short, people will start catagorizing individuals based on who they went out with. Additionally, were a boy or girl to go out with a highly sought after individual, it is unfortunatly not dificult to imagine that that information will be shared at a later date when a shadchin is trying to impress some parents about his or hers proposition. One or both of the original parties may have serious objection to that.

    To slightly revise your point,though, shadchonim and those who are oysek in the mitvah of shiduchim, need to be proactive in compiling lists of boys and girls. Those who, for whatever reason, are not misasek with shiduchim should, at the very least, let those who are misasek know about the bochurim and girls whom they know.

    Lfi aniyas dayti, there is no perfect process for shiduchim. What we are in desperate need of, however, is more nesiyas b’oyl chaveiroy….more sensitivity to the plight and feelings of others and the willingness to take an active role. Too many people refuse to get involved and take an active role in shiduchim and this is wrong.

14. Why do you refer to adults of marriageable age as “boys” and “girls”? Are you implying mental/emotional deficits? People should not seek to marry if they lack emotional health and age-appropriate social skills and nobody should try to marry them off to unsuspecting victims.

    As for the shidduch system’s overwhelming failure to promote satisfying marriages (divorce rates in the frum world just keep going up. So does aginut), it is well past the time for intelligent, emotionally healthy adult Jews to seek each other out at work, at public entertainment ventures, in shul, at smachot, in libraries, and other places where well-behaved adults socialize.

15. 1 name or 100 names. It wont matter as long as it is important

    .where a 34 year girl went to high school or seminary
    . why she got her degree from nyu and not brooklyn college
    .why she is still single at 27
    .how many boys she has dated
    . [insert your own silly question her]
    The questions above were asked of my wife in the last 72 hours. The “looking into it” game has gotten way out of hand. I have a policy of ignoring silly questions such as the 3 stated above while my wife disagrees and feels refusal to answer such a question leads someone to believe you are hiding something. Instead she asks the questioner about why they feel such information is important to decide whether they would consider seeing someone.

    As much information as you can pass along to a shadchan, someone will come up with question that is more “out there” anyway.

    Perhaps, in addition to the well thought out suggestions listed in original message, shadchanim should also share information about who wastes everyones time with ridiculous questions. I suspect the list of available boys and girls will be a lot closer in size, making it easier to discuss all potential shidduchim at the various “shidduch meetings” that are held.

16. Let me start of by saying the letter writer should be commended for trying to think creatively. Let me also say that neither she nor shadchanim have nothing to lose giving her idea a shot.

    Now that I’ve said what political correctness mandates, let me tell you why it won’t work.

    Let’s look at two things that the writer says. First, she acknowledges that her intended audience is the “yeshivish” velt. Later on she notes that:

    “Perhaps mothers who have sons in shidduchim (especially ones who are learning) and the boys themselves might be highly opposed to this idea because their son might not be considered as “special” because the demand for boys is now lowered.”

    Once again we have subtle, but clear hints as to the true roots of the shidduch “crisis”.

    1) It exists primarily (if not exclusively) in the shidduch market comprised of boys who want to learn full-time indefinitely and the girls who want to marry them.

    2) These boys (and perhaps even more so, their mothers) feel entitled (if not obligated) to hunt for the best deal in town.

    I truly sympathize with girls like the writer of this letter. I know you are having a hard time.
    Buit let’s face it, the reason you are not having as many boys mentioned to you as you would like is not because you are not a wondeful person (I really believe you are.) It is not because you and parents are not trying hard enough. (I know that you and they really are.) And it’s not becasue you just don’t know where all the boys are hiding. As number 7 pointed out, just get a list of the enrollments at the local yeshivas. It IS (and I realize I’m making some REALLY BIG ASSUMPTIONS here, and if I’m wrong, correct me and I’ll admit my mistake.) becasue you have been trained to believe that a true Torah home, occupied by a true Ben Torah MUST be based on marriage to a boy who will learn full-time for some indefinite period of time.

    (Oddly, you think this even though many of your male relatives and aquaintences – perhaps even your father – over the age of 50 did not do this and somehow you still think they are bnei Torah who have raised wondeful homes.)

    And for some reason your name does not make it to the top of the shidduch lists of these boys. Maybe it’s money, maybe it’s something else.

    Let me ask you a question, If I called you with the name of a boy who is working as a professional, who is koveah itim for learning every day, and who is described by everyone who knows him as a “prince”, would you go out with him?

    Again, I wish you all the hatzlacha and nachas in the world and I apologize for being so presumptuous about someone I know nothing about.

17. To all of you out there with such great idea’s

    just dont be so picky & dont have a purchase order & you will all get engaged very quick .

    whether the boy learned in Brisk or Mir or Chevron or if the girl went to seminary all of this is a bunch of nonsense.

    Focus on Middos as that is the most importent of it all & you will never know how much Torah your husband knows or does not know but you will very quickly find out if he has middos should he mistreat you or be inconsiderate of your feelings.

    now that you got my advice go out there & good luck to all of you singles.

18. If this idea is going to be tried, please keep in mind that you are dealing with personal and private information. Not everyone wants others to know who they went out with…..and it should be discussed everywhere and with everyone.

19. IT’S NOT SO SIMPLE!

    As this letter suggests, Shidduchim today are a complicated business, and that’s why so many amateur shadchonim suffer such quick “burnout.”

    Too many different communites, too many paople, too little information on such a diverse collection of Ashkenazi, Sfardi, German, Litvish, American, Baal-Teshuva, Vishnitz, Satmar, Lakewood Israel, Europe, Flatbush….etc.

    We need to train–and pay–a professional group of Shadchonim, who will manage a computerized database of all elegible boys and girls and match their backgrounds.

    There is no substitute for a professional. This should be a project within each community.

20. sounds like a great idea but may be incorrect al pi hashkafa because “derech haish lachzor achar haishah”.

21. Hi everyone. I tried posting a response to my own letter earlier but I dont think it worked so I will try again. First of all I’d like to thank you for commending me on my idea. I’ve been thinking about this for a while but never had enough courage to come out with it publicly. I would also like to thank YW for posting it up. To be honest I was alittle worried that many would disagree or critize my suggestion and I’m pleasently surprised that out of 10 people that responded, no one came out with a full blown outrage! (maybe they were all women!) This is actually my “first draft” that I sent into YW. I wasn’t sure if they received it or not so I sent them a second version which happenes to be better worded (in my “unopinionated” opinion anyway) and I really hope they post that one up too becuase I do clarify myself a bit more. And of course it gives more people the chance to respond.

22. deepthinker

    great idea, but there are already shadchanim with a huge list of boys and girls in the database-based on the background of the family.(if you need i give you a couple or anyone else who wants.)

    levtov32

    those ‘issues’ that people have are nothing. People ask; if they use plastic, how many times the cleaning lady comes a week, if they eat meat in their cholent, how many girls were in the girls class…

    you can literaly laugh in their face.
    Such questions are so pathetic, no wonder she/he is still single.

23. While this is a very nice idea, I think you need to realize what needs to be stressed to make it work.

    The fact that you have a list of names of many boys will only go so far. Unless you have many dedicated volunteers who will work very hard to convince the boys & their mothers to go ahead with a name – you will still have the same problem.

    Bottom line – there needs to be more people redding shidduchim! That’s the key. Having names with noone to redd the shidduchim is worthless.

    There needs to be more people willing to work these shidduchim – and to dedicate their time to this worthy cause. Their hishtadlus is what’s most needed to make this idea work.

24. Dear Just another frustrated single,
    Kol Hakavod! I give you so much credit for actually putting your thoughts to words. Your idea sounds great! Not only should the girls just tell the Shadchanim the boys names but they should explain a little bit about the boys. This is a great idea and it should be implemented fast. Good Luck!

    Now, TVT: I enjoyede reading your well written letter. I will try to be nice to you but I find it hard to do so. Who are you to judge how much Torah means to me? You have not way of knowing how much I am willing to give up to be able to marry a a boy that will sit and learn for a long time. I do not believe that by me only dating long time learners, I am adding to the Shidduch Crisis. As you gave the example, if you offered me a boy who everyone knows as a price but not learning full time why do you feel like I would say yes? To me, and many girls, Torah is the first thing and the most important thing. I understand that Midos come along with Torah and Derech Eretz Kadma Letorah. It is a beautfull thing for the girls to truly want a full time learner, like many of my friends, and if your concerned that they are just not fit to marry a full time learner do not fear because those girls will marry the not so serious learning boys. I disagree with you because that does not add to the Shidduch Crisis. I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

25. Dear BYgirl,

    Since you asked for my feedback here it is. First of all, notwithstanding your warning, rest assured that I found nothing about your comments offensive. On the contrary, this kind of frank open discussion of these topics is exactly what is needed. Let me cut and paste some of your comments so I can address them. I’m going to intersperse my responses in CAPS so that they are readily identifiable. It’s not becasue I’m yelling.

    You wrote.

    “You have not way of knowing how much I am willing to give up to be able to marry a a boy that will sit and learn for a long time. I do not believe that by me only dating long time learners, I am adding to the Shidduch Crisis.”

    I DIDN’T SAY THAT THOSE GIRLS THAT HAVE ADOPTED THESE DATING PREFERENCES ARE CAUSING THE PROBLEM. IT IS MY BELIEF, HOWEVER, THAT IT IS PRIMARILY SUCH GIRLS THAT ARE ITS VICTIMS. IF WANTING ONLY LONG-TERM LEARNER IS YOUR CHOICE, THAT’S YOUR PEROGATIVE. I’M SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT IN MAKING THAT CHOICE, ONE OF THE SACRIFICES YOU MIGHT BE MAKING IS THE SACRIFICE OF WAITING LONGER FOR YOUR SHIDDUCH. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CASUES, MY ORIGINAL POST, IF ANYTHING SUGGESTED THAT THE CAUSITIVE BEHAVIOR LIES MORE WITH THE BOYS THAN WITH THE GIRLS.

    Your Wrote:
    “As you gave the example, if you offered me a boy who everyone knows as a price but not learning full time why do you feel like I would say yes?”

    I DON’T. I’M FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT YOU WOULD SAY NO.

    You Wrote:
    “To me, and many girls, Torah is the first thing and the most important thing. I understand that Midos come along with Torah and Derech Eretz Kadma Letorah.”

    PHILOSOPHICALLY, WHAT I THINK WE BOTH AGREE ABOUT IS THAT LIVING A “TORAH-BASED” LIFE IS THE MOST IMPOTRTANT THING. THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF HOURS – A N Y G I V E N I N D I V I D U A L – SHOULD SPEND STUDYING, IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THAT IS WHERE WE PROBABLY DIFFER. YES, “TALMUD TORAH KENEGED KULAM MUST SOMEHOW BE BALANCED WITH “DERECH ERETZ KODMAH LATORAH” BUT I DON’T THINK WE’RE GOING TO SOLVE THAT ONE HERE ON YESHIVAH WORLD. THAT DEBATE HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE TANAIM.

    You Wrote:
    “It is a beautfull thing for the girls to truly want a full time learner, like many of my friends, and if your concerned that they are just not fit to marry a full time learner do not fear because those girls will marry the not so serious learning boys. I disagree with you because that does not add to the Shidduch Crisis. I am interested in hearing what you have to say.”

    AGAIN, I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU OR YOUR FRIENDS WANTING A FULL-TIME LEARNER IS CASUING THE PROBLEM. I’M SUGGESTING THAT THE PROBLEM IS FAR MORE ACUTE AMONG YOUR RANKS BECASUE THE BOYS YOU ARE LOOKING TO DATE OFTEN HAVE OBJECTIVES AND PREFERENCES THAT DO NOT ALLIGN THEMSELVES WITH THOSE OF YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS, NOTABLY IN THE AREA OF FINANCES. IF YOU SERIOUSLY WANT TO BE THE “EZER KNEGDO” OF A TALMUD CHACHAM WHO SHARES YOUR IDEALS, I WISH YOU ALL THE SIYATA DISHMAYA IN WORLD. WE CERTAINLY NEED YOUNG WOMEN WHO WILL FOSTER THE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR FUTURE GEDOLIM.

26. BYgirl – ooooh… you have given the “Shidduch Crisis” capital letters.

    It has now been elevated to the next desperate level.

27. well said TVT! And BY Girl, i would say some fault lies with our educational system which preaches that living a ‘Torah Based Life’ requires that the man of the house is learning in Kollel full time. It is clearly much easier to teach a girl to aspire to marry such a person-than it is for a man to actually execute! THAT is what has led us to the current mismatching of numbers, and to correct that, girls must realize that although Torah is definitely the most important thing in the world, nowhere does that imply that your husband should be learning it all day. The previous generation was in many ways on higher level of Avodas Hashem, Yiras Shameim, and many people yes also in Limud Hatorah than ours,and yet they held jobs to support their families!

28. tvt, living in an out of town type of community, i know many young ladies who would be more than happy to date young men who are working and kovei itim. i am involved in shidduchim and i have over 150 young ladies that i am trying to help. please contact me through the website administrator, if you do have such young men interesting in shidduch ideas. thank you.

29. pashuste yid

    That’s really funny, I seriously sent a request to a frum site this morning to set up such a section-no names what so ever unless serious.

30. funny how all of you write about single yeshiva bochorim when you have more working single guys who are older late 20’s early 30’s …..wake up

31. NOT A GOOD IDEA

    Why not just get a list of all the guys learning in Lakewood and pass it around; it will have the same effect.

    Instead of girls waiting by the phone for a normal suggestion, they’re going to be checking up guys that have basically been picked from a hat.

    Which normal guy would listen to shidduch from a shadchan who doesn’t even know him, and got his name from a girl that he made the mistake of going out with?
    The last thing a guy is going to listen to is more “no shaiches” names that come from a shadcan that has never met the boy, and has only met the girl for five minutes. As it is, guys are bombarded with more names than they know what to do with. This will only give them more “no shaiches” names that they wont takes seriously.

32. Good Good Good! AS long as who went out with who is kept absolutely secret its great.

    To -unopinion8ed- YW won’t post your letter again. You should just post it here as a comment.

33. As a single myself I can tell you that your idea is already in the process. When I personally meet shadchanim I tell them which boys I dated to let them know what type of boy I’m looking for. Most shadchanim know at least 90% or more of the names I have told them. Sharing information with people has its pros and cons. Con: Telling someone who you’ve gone out with leads to problems and questions…what did you think of him/her? why didn’t it workout? Not everyone has a positive answer. I don’t mean to generalize but Boys/girls discuss who they go out with ALL THE TIME…”Oh x she was so quiet and has no personality, and she’s not pretty… don’t go out with her..” All this talk ruins people names. You will ususally find that that if you and your firends are certain type you’ll most probably go out/be redt to the same group of girls/boys. So many of my single friends tell me…”I feel like there’s no one else out there. people are nice to be reding me shidduchim but I just hear the same names over and over again.” So yes, Shadchanim could benifit from getting new names but they will most probably redt you to someone who you already heard of even if you have been in the parsha for only a year. Pro: I do believe people should share the information on a single boy/girl to someone who will seriously consider them for a shidduch. If you know a friend that might be a good idea for someone you went out with then pick up a phone to a shadchan or friend and make it happen. Those shidduchim are sometimes the most suitable ones!!! Good luck!

34. tvt.

    1. CASUING= spelled correctly CAUSING
    2. BECASUE= spelled correctly BECAUSE
    Sorry it was driving me nuts.

    now that said. you have a good point, but a marriage starting off with learning is much different than working. Not that the boy should learn five years rather atleast 6 month to 2 years. and if the couple sees they need the $$ or the husband feels he should go and work and has a solid daf yomi at night and goes to minyan 3 times a day-that’s great.

35. #1- great idea!! i think it is wonderful but want to point out a few things. firstly, many times people hear that “ruchie” went out with “yossi” and immediately put her into a certain category int heir mind, despite the fact that it was not for her/him, despite the fact that it obviously was not for them. we as shadchanim will have to have that at the forefront of out conciousness if we adopt this system, otherwise, it might color our impressions of a person. what about requiring (or asking) the girls/women and boys/men to bring a list of the people thay hav gone out with (complete with contact info and references etc) but not neccesarily have them give it to shadchanim whne they meet them. the system i am envisioning is that they come armed with the information but have it in a sealed envelope, and the shadchan would not open it when they are there, certainly not before speaking with the person, so that they accomplish both objectives- getting the names and not categorizing or typecasting the girl/boy (man/woman).
    i also think that having a central database would be amazing, with candidates registering when they return from seminary or whenever they are ready to start and updating their “status” and info every few months. if there is anybody who might have the skill to create such a computer program, i would be quite interested in working on this with you. we would contact all the schools with an application and get it off the ground. we could also have a basic form that any shadchanim could use to get information so that all information is standardized. this form would also be used when giving names of past dates to the shadchanim. any other ideas while i brainstorm?

36. levtov32- you are so out of touch with today’s issues, it behooves you not to comment.

37. Although i think it this is a great idea, there is a catch to it. Everyone can come across differently depending who they are out with. And just bec. that girl got that impression of the boy, doesn’t mean its ness. true. For example, a girl may find a boy to be too quiet, now just because he was too quiet for her, or if he happened to be tired on the date and was quieter that time… doesn’t ness. mean he should be categorized or described to the shadchan as being quiet. So shadchanim will need to be aware that this is one persons personal impression and will need to do their own inquiries to set him up.

38. LGBG, TVT writes beautifully and seems to be a very thought out person. If you feel a need to comment, there are plenty of other posts which have grammar and spelling that truly needs to be corrected.

    DeliberatelyEsoteric: I don’t even know where to begin with you, if you can kindly tell me exactly what your problem is with me wanting to marry a long time learner. Do you feel some sort of pressure or something?
    TVT: Thank you for your response. I am going to go over a point of yours which left me feeling quite confused. If you don’t mind I will be begin by quoting you.

    “I’M SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT IN MAKING THAT CHOICE, ONE OF THE SACRIFICES YOU MIGHT BE MAKING IS THE SACRIFICE OF WAITING LONGER FOR YOUR SHIDDUCH”. I find it interesting that your telling me that I will find my Bashert at age 22 instead of 19 because I am looking for a long time learner. Wow! So that means that by saying that I want a long time learner, I am putting myself in a position where I will get married a little bit later in life. (I think I am just repeating what you said but I am just trying to clarify it for myself and make sure that I am understanding you properly). It sounds to me like your playing G-od. Are we forgetting who the Master Schadchan is? I do not think that I did not find my Bashert yet because I am looking for a long time learner. I simply did not find him because it is not the proper time. Anyway, with the Mazel of Adar coming up, and my heartfelt Tefillos, I am confident that i”yH, Hashem will guide many girls and boys toward finding their Basherts.

39. For everyone who says boys will still not be maskim… Any shtark good solid yeshiva bachur wouldnt want their name floating around to random people. If I was a boy I probably wouldnt want that either. BUT (and I really feel this would be the case) if these boys rebbeim are maskim to this idea, they are likely to follow suit!

    Also, I’m not sure where people got the idea that this wouldn’t be anonymous and everyone would know who dated who. Maybe I wasnt clear but only the shadchan would be privy to that information.

    All we really need is the rabbeim’s approval to actually turn my idea into a reality. Just becuase I am young and unexperienced in terms of making shidduchim I dont think I am the best candidate to actually start this off. But if someone is interested in getting involved please let me know.

40. BYgirl

    Thank you for your kind words about my writing. Please don’t take this personally, but I have to respond to your comment about my playing G-d chas v’sholom. What I said was, that, certain decisions one makes MIGHT lead to one waiting longer for a shidduch. You responded with “we will find a shidduch when it’s bashert and that I should stop playing G-d.

    I don’t want to digress into a long debate about the balance between hashgacha and hishtadlus. I assume, however, that you would agree that in that very difficult to define balance, G-d has given us some resposibility for our actions.

    Let me turn the tables for a moment. You yourself have have said that for Torah, one may have to make sacrifices. I’m guessing that you are referring to gashmiyus. Well, what makes you so sure that by pursuing a kollel lifestyle your gashmiyus will suffer. Isn’t mezonos in the hands of Hashem. Can’t Hashem provide you with as much parnassah regardless of whether or not your marry a learning boy. Clearly, the answer is yes. Getting back to shidduchim, why go on dates. Don’t you think that Hashem is perfectly capable of having your bashert ring your doorbell and introduce hinmself when the time comes? Do you think that by going out on dates you are hastening the arrival of your bashert? Why?

    Please don’t take this personally. I’m trying to make the point that we all believe that a particular level of histadlus is necessary and that anything more is a chesoron in emunah. We just draw the lines in different places.

    You have been conditioned to believe that looking for a full-time learner is always the right approach for EVERYONE and, consequently, the decision to do so cannot possibly be one of those those practical decisions that can impact your life in ways that you would find undesirable. I disagree. You can accuse me therefore of having the chutzpah to espouse a hashkafa contary to that of many contemporary Rabonim, and to that I plead guilty. But I’m not playing G-d any more than you do every time you wash a fruit before eating it. Eating dirty fruit can lead to disease and waiting to make it to the top of the shidduch list of learning boys who might, for example, be looking for more financial support than you can offer can lead to longer waits for dates.

41. how about a (possibly web based) database controlled by the rabbonim

42. Pushuteh Yid- Great idea! Just make sure the ice cream is parve. Ill bring the drinks, oh and b4 we forget, lets find the boy first! TVT-once again, very well put! I was about to post a similar comment to explain to BY girl that yes-it is possible to do things that will prolong your search for your Bashert, so thanks for explaining that so well!

43. This is truly a great idea.

    My mother recently started a group in Brooklyn, which consists of mothers of girls in shidduchim getting together under her moderation to exchange boys names with other girls mothers.

    She has divided the meetings into different age groups and so far this program has been very very successful.

    She is currently very bogged down with requests and therefore cannot take more people on at this time, but she can help other people who’d like to set up this type of “shidduch meeting” and is available for guidance and advice.

    You can email [email protected] to get more information.

44. pashute yid and iluvcholent

    the wedding will a”h be held in Madison Square Garden on March 9 2008.

    kabalas ponim=6:30

    chuppa=7:30(sharp)

    simchas chosson v’kallah=9:30

    this is a personal invitation for everyone!
    can’t wait to see you there!
    simchas by klal yisrael.
    (btw i really dislike cholent so you may have to find another main course.lol)

45. Mirboy, thank you for your input. Your mother is doing a wonderful service and she should continue to have hatzlacha. What shes doing is much better then those other so called “shidduch meetings” becase those can be so deameaning for some mothers. According to my mother, very few payed attention to those who presented a daughter but when a women presented her son, the room went completly silent. And she said right away people started to say “I know just just the girl”… I know you said your mother is very busy and cant take on a new project but would she be able to direct me to someone who can?

46. iluvcholent

    I never thought i was gonna be typing this-but I agree with you.

    Every girls dream is to marry a guy who’s going to be learning forever, but reality is not every girl is cut out for it. Truth is not every boy is either.

    GIRLS:
    Having a Torah home does not mean the husband has to be learning all day. Having a Torah home means the whole being of existence of the home is based on a foundation of Torah. Your husband can be working 9-5 and have a serious daf yomi, and goes to 3 minaynim a day. But he lives and breath torah:halachos, hashkafos…
    I’m not blaming you girls for wanting a long-time learner, that’s what you learnt in school since you were a kid till seminary. But are you all willing to give up everything for the sake of your husband to learn?
    Please, don’t misunderstand what I’m saying; marry a learning boy, but don’t say “so atleast 5 yrs. right?”. Your chasing them away.
    the same way you wouldn’t like if a boy asked you about your tzniyus, don’t ask about there learning!
    FYI: in BMG (lkwd yeshivah) at 2:00 if you walk past the yeshiva look in the cars and check out how many men are asleep at the wheel. You know why? because when they come home after sitting over a gemara for 5 hrs. there asked by their wives why there going to lie down for an hr. instead of going back to learn! so this way there annoying wife will think he’s learning for an extra hr.!

47. BYgirl, I’m sorry you took my comment that way. I’m not completely sure what you are talking about.

    I wrote that by putting a capital S and a capital C to the words “Shidduch Crisis”, you have added another measure of importance to it, hence another measure of desperation.

    It was actually a pathetic attempt at humor… ignore it.

48. I’d like to add one more important thing. Maybe someone mentioned it already I dont know becuase I havent read every response in detail. I think for everyone actually doing something to help with shidduchim there should be a website telling everyone whats happening, where its happening, and when its happening. I’m sure there are a lot of people who do these meetings but there’s also alot of people who dont know about about them or where to go to be aprt of one. I think someone should encorporate all these shidduch “get togethers” onto a website so people are aware. Unless there already is one and I dont know about that too!

49. This would be a big embarassment for girls who had very few dates! They’d be embarassed to be involved.

    Simpler solution- every girls’ school has to have someone on Staff serving as Shadchan, or a Volunteer Commitee.

50. pashute yid

    i did not realize how my comment sounded regarding having a shidduch section on a frum sight. please understand i did not intend to include myself in the list at all.not my style. but rather for others.
    please note i’m NOT desperate to get married!!

51. Another idea, Letoeles Horrabim, might be that the same way we have Simcha listings and the communitee calender, perhaps The Yeshiva World would also be able to post a list of Shadchanim for people to be intouch with if they so choose, and perhaps Shadchanim would like to advertise on your site. It would be a great help to all as so many people do not know where to start when looking for Shidduchim for their children and themselves

52. lkwdbubby

    great idea!

53. Although the author makes valid recommendations, I think it will be very difficult to implement the above mentioned system as people do not like change. Additionally, there will likely be no change in the current process for yeshivish shiduchim, like this any time soon for the following reasons:
    In my experienc with reding shidduchim, girls who date yeshivish boys do not share the names with anyone, not even their closest friends as they do not see the urgency in reding a shiduch if it is not for them and because they are uncomfortable sharing names for various reasons. Perhaps they do not want others to know they went out with “that” type of boy, or a boy people would think is well suited for them, they may fear others would wonder what is wrong with the girl that it didn’t work out with her and a “good boy”.
    (note: the use of the words boy and girl are a staple in our community, whatever age a single person is, they are usually labeled as such until married, and if lucky, this term can change during an engagement)
    On a side note, lgbg does not like chullent, but I know what she does like, so find her the right chasidish “boy” and I’ll supply the best chullent you ever had, for those of you who like it!

54. Who Said What,
    I agree with your valuable input. There are many single guys available who work and are kovai itim l’Torah. Why do these boys who are willing to make a living, support their family and make time for valuable Torah learning, get overlooked? Where is it written that all BY girls need to marry long term learners? Why not let your parents retire when all their children are married off and let them have a chance to enjoy the Kollel life, instead of forcing them to work two jobs to pay for your demanding kollel lifestyle. I’ve seen too many young children demand so much from their parents so that they can have their beautiful Lakewood home, elegant furniture and enjoy the Kollel life. Fortunately, I have also seen families who really struggle and appreciate those that help them meet their daily financial needs to have a Kollel lifestyle. Unfortunately the latter group are few and far between.

55. As a mother of a girl, we had to introduce her to the two main shadchanim of BMG. She met with one for no more than 5 minutes, and the other one for perhaps 1/2 hour. She is considered a top girl, went to the premier seminary, but has been redt only 2 boys in the year since she met with them. These shadchanim obviously represent the boys, and do not physically have the time to redt shidduchim for all the girls they meet. Why doesn’t Lakewood BMG hire more women and men with the specific responsibility to run a “shidduch department”? If we had to pay a nominal charge, I’m sure most parents would not be opposed to that.

56. To lkwdbubby 12:03 PM:
    I’m very in favor of your idea of Shadchan listings, BUT just as promimnent doctors don’t want to advertise, because they feel they’ll be perceived as needing extra business, so too the successful Shadchanim, would be hesitant to appear as if their phones aren’t ringing off the hooks already and loooking for additional clients. They might suffer from “nebbyphobia”.

57. #33 thinkasecond – you got it buddy. Unopinionated, your idea is very clever, however in the yeshivsh system, its a bit faulty and not so workable… unless of course the Heavenly Shadchan intervenes generously!
    Like 33 mentioned, the guys are bogged down with names as it is (usually) and they will laugh in ppl faces that call up. I feel like your wasting the girls time checking out a list of boys that arent even gonna say yes to her. L’ maisa its a guys world and bachrim and their mothers have the choice to be picky and choose no matter how many poeple random shadchanim give their name to. I recently heard one shadchan call up a bachurs mother and redd a shidduch that apparently was already redd. the Mother so kindly (just kidding) restorted, we heard the name already and we arent interested, period. That is the attitude.
    Good luck polishinhg this detail.
    As for the Rabbeim going for it- Nice idea but I hope the Rabbeim dont laugh in ppls faces also at this because they are quite satisfied with the system. They tell the boys dont tell the girl just red to you yes yet because another better name may come up and so you sont want to be stuck with this one.

    Well well, they know what they are doing, G-d knows what He is doing, we gotta continue doing our hishtadlus and not give up and B’ezras Hashem at the right time zivugim will be found.

    Hope I didnt burst any bubbles!

58. I haven’t read through all the comments so maybe someone mentioned this already, but in response to a number of people including Pashute Yid and deepthinker who suggested a database for shadchanim: There is a wonderful web site called sawyouatsinai that basically does this. The singles can sign up for an account and fill out a profile. The professional shadchanim from the site then can match up the profiles and suggest matches. It is all done in a very tznius, bikovodik way (read the site for more details on how it works). I encourage all singles to sign up for an account and all experienced shaddchanim to apply to be a shaddchan on the site.

59. TVT…
    if you see this…(I’m only correcting you becuase you gave me reshus.)

    You said “It IS (and I realize I’m making some REALLY BIG ASSUMPTIONS here, and if I’m wrong, correct me and I’ll admit my mistake.) becasue you have been trained to believe that a true Torah home, occupied by a true Ben Torah MUST be based on marriage to a boy who will learn full-time for some indefinite period of time.”

    I’m actually not looking for a full time leaner.

60. DeliberatelyEsoteric, thanks for explaining yourself. I guess I just don’t appreciated your sense of humor. But thats fine, to each his own.

    TVT: Wow! Very interesting! Chas Veshalom! Do you actually think that I just wait for the phone calls to come? Do you know how much Hishtadlus I put into Shidduchim? I find your words to be quite interesting. I understand that it is a very fine line and a very individualized thing for every single person to decide how much Hishtadlos one needs to put forth. But please, do you really think someone could be like you described? I must have really given off the wrong impression. I will quote you, “I’m guessing that you are referring to gashmiyus. Well, what makes you so sure that by pursuing a kollel lifestyle your gashmiyus will suffer. Isn’t mezonos in the hands of Hashem. Can’t Hashem provide you with as much parnassah regardless of whether or not your marry a learning boy.” Please, come on. lets use some practicality. I guess you totally misunderstood what I said, or I just made myself unclear. Now, let me clarify one more thing. I DO NOT think that every girl should marry a learning boy. It is not for everyone! Of course it’s not for everyone! If one feels that they can do it, I think that it is very beautfull.
    P.S. I did not like your fruit comparison.

    LGBG: I hear where your coming from and some of what your saying is true and some is not. Throughout my years in High School and post, I have not heard teachers preaching about learning boys and I believe that it is a misconception. Perhaps they talk about the beauty of a Torah life and from there the girl wants to marry a learning boy. I really don’t think, at least not in my circles, that preaching takes place. Perhaps they see first hand (in Seminary in E’Y) the sincerity found in a kollel home. At least with me, nobody has ever preached to me about marrying a long-time learner. It is something that I have seen firsthand and I now want to be a part of this special group of people. I hope you understand a little better.

61. unopinion8ed

    My apologies.

    My generalizations clearly do not apply to you.

    For my own edification, maybe you can provide me with some insight. I can’t help but wonder whether you have always been looking for a working boy or whether this preference represents a more recent change as a result of some of the experiences you describe.

    And if so, are you seriously finding it as difficult to get working boy dates as it was to get learning boy dates.

    I’m perfectly willing adjust my my atitudes as I get more information. Help me out.

    Thanks…and Hatzlacha.

62. TVT, I had a lot to say last night and typed a nice long letter and I have no clue where it is. It must be floating somewhere in Cyber space. Weird that it just disappeared but maybe its best that way, although I don’t think it was that bad. Anyway, Hatzlacha!

63. BYgirl

    I understand what your saying. I too want a learning boy, not because of the preaching, because I think it’s important and special to start a marriage off with learning.
    However I think in schools and especially in sem(atleast the one i went to.) they overdo it!

64. BY Girl

    Quote:
    “Do you actually think that I just wait for the phone calls to come? Do you know how much Hishtadlus I put into Shidduchim? I find your words to be quite interesting. I understand that it is a very fine line and a very individualized thing for every single person to decide how much Hishtadlos one needs to put forth. But please, do you really think someone could be like you described? I must have really given off the wrong impression. ”

    Apparently your long letter finally made it. Anyway at this point I have to apologize. I have been attempting to make some points by using a device called the “rhetorical question”, and I have been unsuccesful. No, of course I don’t think you or anyone should just should sit around and wait for dates. And, No, I don’t for a minute believe that you have not been doing everything you can to find your bashert.

    Let’s recap:

    I said that the decisions one makes about what kind of shidduch to pursue can impact how long it takes to find a shidduch given the realities of today’s shidduch scene.

    You said I’m playing G-d by suggesting that a decision to look for a learning boy can delay your shidduch.

    My response (apparently not well communicated) is that every choice we make can have such an effects. To suggest that one type of decision (like looking for a learning boy) can’t possibly delay your shidduch is your own arbitrary distinction and has nothing to do with any abstract principle of hashkafa.

    You are entitled to disagree, but that doesn’t mean I’m playing G-d. We all draw these lines of distinction based on our personal beliefs.

    Again, I hope you find your zivug b’korov.

    P.S. We probably both have better things to do with our time.

    Hatzlacha

65. tvt

    I’m not sure where you got the idea that I had difficulty getting dates. I was never and still not looking for a full time learner nor am I looking for a “professional”. I am simply looking for someone in between. My idea stemmed from hearing about the difficulties that some of my friends are going through as well as hearing random conversations/complaints when people talk about shidduchim at my work. Please understand my letter was not a personal complaint. I was just being a spokesperson for so many other girls.

66. I just wrote a whole comment and I think it got erased… oops.

    -kitzur

    Pashuteh Yid-

    Ois Mentsh is bad but its true. Its there. thats the metzius and thats what mothers and daughters have to deal with no matter what amount of names you give the girls to pass around. The Boys and their search comittee will snot it out and turn in into a Harry deal. Why in heaven should they listen? Not that its right… its just waht is culturally accepted especially becaus ethey have the lists of nams already by girls feeling in control that they are with the lists is only a matter of putting a child on a moving kiddie car in an amusement park and convincin them that they can steer it.

    L’maisa the boys are steering the car and Hakadosh baruch Hu is the electrical source.

    All that can be done beisdes of course changing al the boys and rabbanims value systems and ways of life is turning upwards and knocking down sharie shamayim. This is the gezaira and trust Hashem and beg Him to break its walls and send flooding waves of the correct zivugim.

    Go enjoy your cholent with Lgbg just make sure its not last weeks leftovers or you may be better off dropping it on amakelek to give them stomach sensory issues!

    As for the Gemara you talked about- well well so sad becauase it places so large a quantity of the noted and quoted down in the dumps!!!!! And to think that these ppl are turning off so many b/c they represent the “Elite” in Torah! No wonder it spreads into the shidduch world!

67. TVT; You said it as it is, we both have better things to do with our time. Have a great life and thanks for your comments.
    -BYgirl

68. pashute yid

    simply (again), have a great shabbos!
    and to the rest of the YW clan!

69. 71, this is the third time I’ve come across “Harry”in a month. What does it mean?
    Gut Shabbos,

70. Ok so now that everyone expressed their opinons about everything….what exactly do I do now? thats what i’m really trying to get at. what now?

71. Well unopinionated… I suggest you set up a way for ppl to get in touch with you like set up an email address 😉 that they can help u out, like maybe some shadchanim in training can get in touch with you and together you can advertise for your suggestion and get the show on the road… ‘

    Lots of hatzlacha…..

    tzippi- well Harry… um i tried to send an answer to the yated with an answer to that Q but it got erased b4 i saved it so I took it as a siman not to retry. Basically ist the yeshivish term used to differentiate the non yeshivsh. wannabees manytimes will fall in the category and ppl who just dont chop the little things and bigger in the yeshivishe derech, is probably the simplist quickest least offensive way to say it.

    It doesnt mean not frum.. just missing the yeshivishness. well hope you get the picture.

    Pashuteh Yid, amen!!!

72. pashute yid

    gut voch(and to everyone else)

    you really bring laughter to my day! and amen!
    im sure when the right time comes you’ll be one of the first to know!

    and trust me-im enjoying my single life.

73. well if anyone wants to contact me via email you can reach me at [email protected]. I really really really would like to speak to someone more experienced in this field who might be able to help me out. Even if it doesnt ketch on so quickly, I still believe its worth a shot and if it makes even one shidduch then in my mind it was a success.

74. Pashuteh Yid-

    you’re making my head itch!!!

    The question has been buzzing around my head and you brought it to the roots.
    I think I have an answer kind of… tho really only the aibeshter knows.

    My humble answer… It is REALLY hard to be a good guy. Starting from the minute the day starts, if u have a hard time getting up- well you are basiacally doomed b/c the whole shachris thing. Once a guy is doomed at the start of the day- things dont always go so pleasantly from there on. I believe that we are unfortunately losing the good guys to the “unpressured” world at there that doesnt restrict guys for living their teva. When you check the numbers- THere ARE a whole lot of good guys learning but the truth is the numbers are not the same- much more girls want learning boys then there is to offer especially b/c the swarms coming out of seminaries bring a new fresh load of girls looking for that stuff and the girls waiting on line get pushed a side and ranked “up” (or down depending on how you look at it). So that being one answer to the number thing

    Then theres the working guys… well still the more modern are going out and meeting the girls whereever it may be. The Yeshivish ones, well the yeshivish girls mostly want learning so they arent in the calculation of that, yet there are those that do want working and surprisingly you will have a small amount of boys with lots of girls dating them or being red to them but they just arent “hitting it off.” apparently. And then we have all the guys that drugged off or fell off the deep end that left a nice little girly waiting so sadly to find him but not knowing where he is.

    There are your numbers. The truth is thinking about numbers in shidduchim is just as good as thinking about the world before brias ha olam. It can be dizzying and isnt quite comprehensible so we just got to do what we gotta do and keep making shidduchim wothout trying to change numbers cuz G-d has got it all down to the last detail. Not us.

    GUt vach!

75. comical it may have sounded …. pathetic is the metzius!!

76. 1) Given: Biologically. there are more males than females until late thirties. (Verify this from any number of sources.)

    I’m not sure where you get this from. As I understand it, Hashem creates an equal number of boys and girls. The problem is that boys start going out later (22-24) while girls start going out right after (or even during) seminary. As Klal Yisroel grows B”H, the number of boys and girls in each “grade” increases. So if, for example, there is a school that graduates 40 boys and 40 girls one year, a few years later that same school will graduate 50 each. A few years later, there are 50 girls and 40 boys starting to date. Assuming that all the boys get married within the year, there are 10 girls left waiting for the next year’s boys. Hashem has the numbers correct and it will all even out eventually, the problem is that the boys want to go out with younger girls so the “10 leftovers” can’t get dates. One way to “solve the shidduch crisis” is to get boys to out with “older” girls (in this case “older” can actually mean the same age or even a year younger!)

77. pashute yid
    to your #80 comment.

    what you say mostly is true, however just 2 things:

    2) Given: There is a shidduch crisis.
    I highly disagree with you, there is no crisis, it definitely is a problem, but not a crisis.

    ****A crisis (plural: crises) may occur on a personal or societal level. It may be a traumatic or stressful change in a person’s life, or an unstable and dangerous social situation, in political, social, economic, military affairs, or a large-scale environmental event, especially one involving an impending abrupt change. More loosely, it is a term meaning ‘a testing time’ or ’emergency event’.********** how is the shidduch problem anything like this?

    5) One small question, who (or what) exactly are these boys marrying?
    what do you mean?

78. HaQer, they’re already trying to solve that crisis by paying boys to go out with girls older then them. I heard this straight from R’ Peysach Krohn who announced it to the oilam at the agudah convention. So if a 24 year old boy goes out with a 24 year old girl he gets X amount of money. For each year she is older he gets even more. This doesnt help the shidduch crisis becuase now girls might be reluctant to go out with younger boys knowing they might have been “monitarily pushed”. In my opinion girls should go on strike and not date at all. The boys would now have a crisis of their own and therefore will have to PAY US!!
    my goodness!

79. 77, shkoyach.

80. pashuteh yid- you only got half of the root of the problem lefi shitasi….

    1/2 is the “shachris prob.” vehal’a.
    The other half is that so many more girls want learning boys every year then there are available (possibly due to the shach prob), unevening the numbers even more.

    With that said I think its time for a new mailbag letter… though I have enojoyed this one a lot- I must say.

    See ya around at the next one.

    And please anybody who can really help unopinionated get her idea off the ground—-

    Lets all help and email [email protected] as she had requested.

    I’m sure anybody that it helps will be ever so thankful!

    Shkoyach 🙂

81. i honestly dont think there’s any way to change the system. the only thing that i can think of (and im a girl in the parsha) is that guys need to be more flexible with shidduchim. l’mashol:if so many ppl suggested the same shidduch but the guy decides that he doesnt wanna go out with this girl bcuz shes not maskim to live in israel and he prefers to live there for a year or 2. so big deal-he’ll end up in lakewood!! is it that bad?? wud guys rather marry a girl whos the right one for him, or a girl who would just like to live in israel?? is that all that matters? i need answers.

82. pashute yid

    I do not get what you wrote, your saying there is a crisis or not?

    lkwdsemgrad08

    right on target!

83. yeah i kno im rite on target!! i kno abt this shidduch system too well and im sick and tired of it!

84. lkwdsemgrad08

    join the club

85. thankx 4 the encouraging words!

86. To unopion8ed and everyone else who wants to get this idea going: I’m sure you have shadchanim that you have dealt with, why not, suggest this to them, give them your list and tell them to request lists from other girls. Perhaps not all shadchanim will agree with this idea, but those who do can certainly try to make something of it. You have to start by making the suggestion to them and giving them yout list. Bimakom she’aim ish (or in this case isha, lol)…

87. A number of people focus on the data that says there are more available girls than boys. A whole list of reasons are given.

    What if we narrowed the gap by not setting up “older” guys with the younger girls entering shidduchim right out of high school or seminary.

    Perhaps it will be an eye opener to a guy who has this very long list of girls that he fiddles with while “he looks into it”. If this same fellow knew that if he fiddles too long, his pool of available girls will get smaller and smaller perhaps it will spur him to be more serious and attentive when someone suggests a name to him.

    Just a thought.

88. pashute yid

    you really are a great comedian.
    however i think my folks know that without a note.
    and your not simple.

89. scccuuuzme me everyone! i think the problem that i pointed out in #90 is a lot bigger prob than all the above probs.

90. Good point Pashuteh Yid, I guess if the numbers were really the problem then unopinion8ted’s idea won’t solve the problem. I was just pointing out that she can initiate her idea herself.

    This letter seems to say that the problem is that the Shadchanim have more girls than boys to work with so the boys have long lists and some girls have to wait around. If that is actually the case, then the idea would help and she should get it going by speaking to her shadchanim. Another way to get it going is to tell this idea to her friends and have them speak to their shadchanim. this way the shadchanim will have more boys to add to their lists’.

    I think that the boys actually do exist, it’s just that they all want younger girls so the older ones don’t get dates. If people wouldn’t be picky about age then there would be much less of a “crisis”. This is the reason that there are many “shidduch initiatives” out there that pay shadchanim for setting up older girls or setting up boys with girls who are older then them.

    Another possibility (this might be a topic for a whole new letter) is that the shadchanim actually do have the same number of boys and girls but they are only suggesting the “best” ones to the boys so each boy has a long list and the girls at the bottom of the list are being left out. You might say that this would even out eventually as the girls at the top of the list get engaged, but actually there are always more coming in so the girls at the “bottom of the list” never get dates. The obvious solution to this would be to have the shadchanim work “for the girls” rather than “for the boys”, which is sort of what unopinion8ed is suggesting. The way it seems to work now is that the shadchan will look into a boy and then give him a list of girls. In the new way, it would work both ways, the shadchan will also look into each girl and provide them a list of boys. The problem is that when the girl goes through this list and picks someone to go out with, he then has to agree, but he might not if he has his own list that he is working on and she is not at the top of that list.

    Interestingly, as a single, working guy with a disability, I feel that I am in a similar predicament to the girls in the “crisis” in that I have very few girls on my “list”. The shadchanim are “working for me” in that they suggest the girls to me rather than the other way around but those suggestions arent “long lists” as are suggested by the girls in the “crisis”. Those “long lists” probably apply mostly to the “best, full-time learning boys”. The “older” girls looking for full-time learners end up at the bottom of those lists and never make it to the top as new, younger girls keep getting added. That is probably what causes the “crisis” for those girls. The solution to this is first of all to teach the boys to go out with older girls. Second, as lkwdsemgrad08 said, we have to look into why these particualr girls are at the bottom of the lists to begin with (when they are still “young”). Many of the reasons for pushing them down the list are probably nareshkeit as has been suggested in many of the shidduch letters and comments on this site. The Rebbeim have to teach these boys not to be so makpid about those things and this will give the girls at the bottom a chance to move up the lists and get dates.

91. The shmoozer- I thought I was finishe with this thread but I guess not. Awesome idea—- though it aint original. Lots of ppl have been suggesting what you say. the Prob is… shkoyach if you manage to get 20 ppl to fall for it. I hate to be so pessimistic I just am being realistic. Unless Rav Elyshiv or the like make a cherem on the younger girls it aint happening!!!

    Pashuteh Yid- keep your wheels rolling… thats quite a not pashut “kop” you seem to carry on your shoulders 🙂 Clever indeed. Maybe your brachos hold so not pashut also and taka all the maidlach will go fly their kite very soon!! Hey ya never know!

    lkwdsem- go daven and say shir hashirim or something. You aint changing too many guys minds unless they get old or you change circles. Well ya never know as I tend to say a lot so maybe I should change my atitude.

92. yeah shloyach i dunno where u stand in life, married or single but u dont kno how much i daven (and i did start saying shir hashirim but i stopped bcuz i 4got one day) but u definitely have a horrible attitude. im a pretty, smart, good hashkafos, withit 19 yr old n finding a shidduch shouldnt be all that difficult. there are plenty of guys out there my type, but a lot of these young 21/22 yr olds say no 4 stupid reasons like theyll only go out with a girl who wud live in israel… guys wouldnt even look into it unless the girl ‘signs on the dotted lines to accept his petty ideas’. i rly think that there shud be something done abt this. n shkoyach dont give me ur nasty attitude–i dont wanna hear it

93. Ive been in touch with a few shadchonim who think this is a wonderful idea. The problem is not for them to actually do this (becuase they are willing), the problem lies with convincing the boys to allow them to do this. The boys will never go for it becuase they dont have to! And I’m ok with that. My ultimate goal is really trying to help balance out the system. I dont care how it comes about or whether my idea comes into fruition or not. I actually dont think its normal for a girl to receive 25 names of boys either. I think perhaps a more realistic suggestion boys would be limited to how many names they can recieve at 1 time. If a boy gets a list of 30 girls…unless the first had the same name as his mother, the second girl wasnt home, the third girl’s line was busy, and the fourth girls is still in seminary, the 5th girl is not even getting glanced at! So why red it to begin with?! Thats my point. By limiting the amount of names a boy receives, less girls will get pushed off to the sidelines. So if a boy receives 5 names he would have to either date all of them or at the very least check into them and say no before he can get another list. I dunno…just another random thought…

94. lkwdsem…please dont be upset with shkoyach. she didnt mean to insult you personally. she was just saying a general statment about boys. and i know its not my place to say this but please dont be so frustrated at 19. your still young yet and I’m sure you have alot going for you. me bieng 23 i still have alot, but less! also… (i’m only mentioning this becuase you did) if you dont want to live in israel why would you be upset if a boy said no to going out with you? I might be mistaken becuase you didnt say that straight out but it seemed implied with how you worded it.

95. Lkwdsemgirl- I’m sorry I didnt mean to be nasty…. I just take reality and shouldnt have thrown it in your face. Reality is as unopinionated has just stated. The boys have no intention to give in to the girls requests. They really dont need to and no one can force them to. As for saying Shir Hashirim and davening… I dont doubt for a second that you arent. I meant it more as a statement of give up on hope in man and dont let go of it from the aibeshter.
    We all know it and do it in everything in life but sometimes we get caught up in “if only he would do this and she would do that…” We can only do what we can in changing ppl but we have to be makir that sof kol sof The One Above will provide you with your zivug no matter how crazy the system seems to be. I recently heard of a kalla that got engaged after over a hundred boys she dated. you can imagine she wasnt a young semgirl (although not quite “old” either.) She had alla mailos yet she it took her till a bit of an older age and a long emotional train later till she found it. i dont wish it on you. Chalila. May HkbH sen you your zivug b’ karov. As you “wait” live life and keep up your davening. Daven for all of us for everything b/c we need lots of it as seem to waste too much time on all the yw issues brought forth.

    Again, I apologize if I wasnt sensitive before.

96. good thinking unopinion8ed but i wish ur plan wud come to fruition and i rly dont think it will

97. thank you all for your chizuk. i just want to clarify one point: i think that girls would go out more instead of being pushed to the bottom of lists if guys would be more flexible about stupid things. thats all.

98. I think the bottom line of all these responses is that boys will be boys and the system will never change. I am quite aware of that and for the last few weeks have been wrecking my brains trying to figure out new ideas to help shadchonim semi successively implement something! So whats that saying “if you cant beat em, join em?” thats what im trying to get across to everyone. there should be more of a balance to the system. the girls obviously will never win. but we should be atleast given the chance to play in same game. if boys are given huge lists, then so should the girls. and as my letter stated its very possible (just not so probable it will be accepted) or, becuase were limited to the amount of names we receive, so should the boys and therefor less girls will be pushed to the sidelines. and my favorite…girls going on strike from dating therefore are in high demand (for once) and guys will have to pay us! obviously I’m joking about that but my goal is trying to figure out ways to help balance out the system where one side can compramise on something thereby making girls and boys equally important when it comes to setting them up.

99. Shkoyaxh: Why is this statement “The boys have no intention to give in to the girls requests. They really dont need to and no one can force them to.” true?

    Editorial, after letter to the editor, after article in major jewish newspaper and magazine after symposium to address this situation. Get involved we are asked. Lets get involved and redd shidduchim, however, those boys (and girls) who waste everyones time with silly questions, nonsensical answers or worse yet, silence should be dropped from the list of those we are trying to help.

    Yes, boys will be boys, but when there are no girls for them, they will grow up.

100. pashute yid

     we officially hired you to be our shadchan-now go get to work.

101. pahute yid #110—YOU HAVE THE ANSWER!!! good idea. lets get started. and theshmoozer– being that boys will be boys, us girls who are now young and green will get older if they dont wanna be flexible. thats wut im nervous abt.

102. lol… pashuteh yid… u just cracked me up when u said u thought shkoyach was a guy up until yesterday. shes gonna be on the floor rolling when she sees that! shes actually my good friend and if it wasnt for her encouragement, i would never have written my letter. if u want all the girls here to stop writing and actually get married why dont u try setting them up? I dont know what age category you fall into but Im sure you can come up with some names…

103. yes pashute yid u have a BIG JOB waiting for you. start workin

104. Editors Note: This is not a dating website.

     PERIOD.

105. well are 99% of the posters women? men pleaz answer this question. thank u.

106. ya pashuteh yid I tried to help you out but they also edited out my comment. sorry!

107. Unopinionated…. do I know you from somewhere?

     ???????????????????????????????????????????????

     Sorry guys, it doesnt pas for yeshiva world to be a yeshiva “dating site” 😉 But I must admit they do allow us to share ideas that they can possibly have part of the schar of any shidduchim that may come about from the ideas shared on their site. Thanks YW 🙂

108. this is really funny, maybe there should be a YW reunion-so everyone have a good laugh!!!!!!

109. pashute yid

     are you the editor/moderator? somehow every idea i have that doesn’t get onto YW you know about and yours gets approved. seriously, the dating site idea and the emailing set up i wrote in but didn’t pass.

     oh and thank you for a beautiful sheva brachos! i even had little of the chulent and it was actually not that bad!

110. Pashute Yid, thanks for your encouragement…

     Just FYI: I recently got engaged 😀 [somewhere btwn numbers 2 & 3 of your countdown]

     This is a personal invitation to my wedding in the summer!!

     unopinion8ed, InShidduchim, lgbg, lkwdsemgrad08, freezer, etc. – your turns will come soon, girls!! Hang in there

111. amen!! mazel tov to u!!!!

112. deliberatl.

     a huge mazel tov!

113. Thanks everyone for your good wishes!

     If you post your address, I will send each of you an invitation [as if YW Editor would let :)]

114. yeah o. y did u have anything to do with that shidduch?

115. In that case you have to handel how much shadchanus goes to unopinionated as well as YW for posting this altogether!!! I’ll take any extra leftover gelt 🙂

116. im so confused. did u really make her shidduch?

117. pashute yid

     it just has to start with one…

118. ok pashute yid, sounds interesting!