The Satmar Rebbe of Kiryas Yoel – Rav Aron Teitelbaum Shlita – has laid down new Taakanos (rules/laws) to cut down on the increasingly extravagant cost of weddings.
The following are excerpts from today’s Times Herald Record:
Engagement: Only light refreshments – soda and cookies – can be served at engagement parties.
Gifts: No other gifts should be given except four pieces of jewelry: a watch, a pearl necklace, earrings and engagement ring with a cubic zirconia diamond for the bride; and the book of oral law, a Sabbath blessing cup and a menorah for the groom (in addition to the customary gift of prayer garments and accessories).
The wedding banquet: The last grace should occur no later than 11 p.m., and the wedding shall end no later than 1:30 a.m. During the mitzvah dance, grandfathers should dance first, followed by all other male relatives together (and not individually) with the bride, then the father of the bride, then the father of the groom.
Such decrees, known as “takanos,” are embraced by Hasidic cultures that see them as effective means of addressing social ills, said Rachel Freier, a Hasidic attorney who works in Kiryas Joel. They usually follow grass-roots efforts to bring the problems of commoners to the clerical leadership’s attention, she said.
“It’s, ‘Tell us, we need limitations to help us avoid problems,’ ” Freier said.
“What used to be affordable many years ago is now not,” Freier said. She declined to estimate the cost of Hasidic weddings because of the range of family incomes, as well as to avoid embarrassment for her culture, she said.
Kiryas Joel residents usually spend less on weddings than Hasidim living in Brooklyn, where Freier lives, she said.
Keeping up with their Hasidic neighbors has never been harder these days, as rising expectations for weddings and other celebrations clash with the financial constraints of larger families.
Grand Rebbe Aaron Teitelbaum issued his new laws last month in a recording accessed by phone by many of the 100,000 Satmars around the world. More than 40,000 calls came in, many of them broadcast inside synagogues in the United States, Europe and Israel.
(Click HERE to read the complete article on the Times Herald Record website.)
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46 Responses
i give the satmar rebbe(kiryas yoel)a lot of credit! i hope it really works! (cuz the guidlines that were origanilly made, didn’t really stick!) a lot of agmas nefesh will be spared! just one thing doesn’t sit with me- why the cz diamond?!?!
LGBG:
BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE TODAY CAN’T AFFORD TO BUY REAL DIAMONDS!
it all sounds good till the cubic zirconia diamond is insisted.
I think that you can make a limit of amount of money spent on the diamond, but to say it has to be cz?!?!
cubic zirconium?????????
The comments that people wrote by the orignal Times Herald article are so anti semitic- I cannot get over it! Yw, I would take away that link. It’s really not necessary.
The takanos set up were announced at a convention you had to pay a lot to attend and had a lot of loopholes. The question here is how many loopholes are there? Will the “Rebbeshe” chasunos also end by 1:30?
In Satmar Williamsburg there are already cheap wedding and simcha packages in place for many years. In Monroe there are no alternative halls available for cheaper weddings, and the Rebbe’s own simchas are extravagant and costly affairs in tents vs. in Bais Medrash as by others. Bobov has it right. The same Tekonos that the Chasidim follow are strictly adhered to by the Rebbishe children themselves. Politics aside, that I respect!!
great idea should be followed by every sect of Yiddishkeit, there is no reason to spend on a real diamond(no one knows the diffrence and the point of diamond is not to spendbig money) and these Takanos are outlined beutyfully. With all the problems financially we are facing today there is no reason to blow on weddings. This will save a lot of embarrasment for the lower income families and take pressure of the wealthier ones. More funds to spend on much more needed programs
Why the CZ everything else is understandable. How can you expect a Kallah to treasure a CZ stone. Will she show her friends”Look at this piece of glass that I got from my chosson whom I only met once for like 5 minutes BTW”?????
deepthinker
i guess your not a woman. cuz then you’ll feel there pain! every girl waits for her diamond ring even if its tiny, atleast its real! btw i think some of those engagement bracelets are more expensive then those rings. my friends are getting 10 thousand dollar bracelets!! i think that should stop first. 5/10 years ago girls were not getting the bracelets the girls are getting today!! but the diamond ring should be real in my opinion(and it appears a lot of other people agree with me to).
#11
it’s not 5 minutes its more like 2-3 ‘beshows’.
Didn’t we just learn the gemara about Rabbi Akiva buying his wife the “Ihr shel Zahav”?
The issue is not extravagant spending. The issue is the tenth commandment.
LGBG;
I DO FEEL THEIR PAIN–the pain of the poor shlubS, who are working like dogs, trying to cover their enormous expenses and squeak through the month in the black.
Then, they get hit with Chasuna expenses on top of everything else–tuition, medical expenses, food, clothing, and shelter.
What do you want them to do? Go out and rob a bank?
Or, do you want them to swindle their customers!
Let’s learn to lower our expectations and live within our means.–EzeHu Ashir, HaSoMeach BeChelKo!
But, we can’t do it alone. The whole community must do it together. Otherwise, it won’t work. Nobody wants to be the community “Nebbich!’
I am glad about the push for CZ. If something is across the board it sets expectations appropriately, and families can save funds for more crucial items!
I disagree with you lgbg: no girl wants to have a tiny diamond ring. In today’s day in age, people are more impressed by size, not by value. You think if a girl got a very small stone she wouldn’t be self conscious of it when she’s showing it to people? Or when she is getting a manicure and her friend’s diamond ring is double the size of her own? People might think that the quality of the stone surpasses the size of it, but when a girl gets engaged, the first thing people notice is her hand and if the diamond is something they can all talk about. It’s only the truth of today’s generation.
Maybe I am being too cynical, but I can’t help wondering if those who are against the diamond ring “Takonah” work on 47th St.
It’s about self esteem, NOT an ego. It’s very hard in this word to be happy with what you have, and to feel good about yourself, while the rest of the world is moving up and you’re remaining static. It’s not about jealousy either. Don’t get a better car, or a fancier house because the neighbor just got one. Get it for yourself because you’ve earned it and will enjoy it. When getting up, getting dressed and leaving the house in the morning and you start doubting yourself and think that you don’t look and feel great – is a terrible thing. It’s not to say that a huge diamond ring, and a human sheitel, and a beautiful house is the key to finding happiness, but at least it might make you feel good about yourself, hold yourself at a higher value. And like I said, it’s about your self esteem, NOT your ego.
Anything that keeps families from making simchas they can’t afford is okay with me. Your friends already know what kind of party you can afford. Spending more doesn’t impress them, they just sit and wonder how on earth you are paying for it.
If you can afford to buy a real diamond and people can’t tell the difference it really isn’t showing off or keeping up with the schwartz’s (jones’s). I think limiting spending on the wedding hall is a good idea. Sorry for Shwekey and Avraham Fried they could lose a lot of business.
START THE TAKUNES RIGHT IN THE BEGINING NOT AT THE END
THE MOSDOS
1) A CHILD STARTS HIS EDUCATION AT AGE 3-4 ENDS BY ABOUT 20-25 TUITION; IS ONE PLACE
WHERE THE REBBES CAN HELP AND CONTROL I PAY $400 A MONTH PER CHILD 400 X 12 =4800 X 15
= $72,000. ADD TO THIS CAMP .. PLUS PLUS. THIS IS MORE THEN TO MAKE A CHASENE, NO
WONDER WHY THERE IS NO MONEY TO MAKE A CHASENE.
2)A BOCHER THAT IS IN YESHIVA AND IS NOT WORKING SHOULD NEVER GET A PENELTY OF $1,000
OR $3,000 “KENAS”. THAT WILL HELP THE POOR FATEHR SAVE MONEY FOR HIS CHASENE.
BUILDINGS
3) TENENTS THAT LIVE IN BUILDING OWNED BY REBBES (MOST OF THEM ARE) SHOULD NOT ASK
$20,000 -$50,000 :SHLISEL GELT” EVRY TIME THE TENENT HAVE TO MOVE BECAUSE HIS FAMILY
OUTGREW THE APARTMENT 3 OR 4 TIMES. THIS IS MORE THEN TO MAKE A CHASENE. NO WONDER
THERE IS NO MONEY TO MAKE A CHASENE.
4) TO HELP THE TENENTS THAT LIVE IN BUILDING OWNED BY REBBES (MOST OF THEM ARE)
TENENTS SHOULD PAY A LOWER RENT THEN THE MARKET. THAT WILL HELP THE POOR FATEHR SAVE
MONEY FOR A CHASENE.
GERMAN MONEY ETC…
5) MONEY THAT IS MADE AVAILBLE FOR THE HOLACUST COMUNITY SHUOLD BE SHARED FOR EVRYONE
NOT FOR ONLY A FEW. THAT WILL HELP THE POOR FATEHR HAVE MONEY FOR A CHASENE.
UNLESS THAT THE MENTIONED ABOVE BELONGS TO THE ONES THAT MADE THE TAKUNES THEN IT IS
UNDERSTOOD WHY THE TAKUNES ARE MADE THIS WAY.
Communisim is a great idea! But it never works.
So too over here. If EVERYONE was doing it, it may work. But I can tell you that my wife, mother, sisters, daughter would never go for C.Z and neither would most others. We are not Satmar and do not need to follow this takanah, neither does the other 1/2 of Satmar. So, those who wrote about the girls in Satmar seeing others with the nicer diamonds and wanting them, are right!
Learn Torah, live in the true chasidish way of life and bderech mimeyla we will not have any shtusim, as opposed to doing what you want and mit amal by a chasunah you try to make up on chinuch that should have been taught when the child was 3.
MAYBE THEY SHOULD FIRST START THE TEKANES WITH THE REBBES
1. THE WALKING CANE SHOULD BE SILVER PLATED
2. THE FUR ON THE COAT SHOULD BE FAKE FUR
3. THE CHAIR THAT THE REBBES SIT ON SHOULD BE A FOLDING CHAIR
4. THE ‘TISCH’ EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT SHOULD FINISH AT ELEVEN
5. NO MORE THEN 3 DIFFERENT COLORED BEKESHES ALLOWED
6. NO CADILLACS
I DONT THINK THIS COMMENT NEEDS MORE THE RABBIS HAVE TO BE AN EXAMPLE??????????????????
I smile as I imagine how the non-Jewish readers of the Times-Herald — whose own concept of “dancing with the bride” is much different than ours — must picture the following, from the article above:
“…followed by all other male relatives together (and not individually) [dancing] with the bride…”
deepthinker
if you look at comment #2 i wrote that these takanos WILL SPARE AGMAS NEFESH! but it doesn’t have to be with the cz ring! maybe if the girls don’t get the $1000 kallah coat-which is a must! or the $700+ sheva brachos outfits. or the $10,000 dining room set… my list is endless. this is NOT where we should cutting expenses. cuz most ppl anyways do not buy $7000 diamond rings!
and,
the chassanim do not need $3000 shtriemels. mind you whats with the watches the boys get-if its not a concord or a baume mercei there not up to part. please don’t think that i mean that a
chosson shouldn’t get top quality. but don’t make the cuts on the kallah!
Its amazing how in a world with so many new takanos and experts in every field to make everything better Lmaan Hashem of course, we fall so short of where we think we really stand.Of course we are a much frumer velt however somehow our yiddishkeit is getting watered down immensely.A different world today perhaps?True but a lame excuse.If everybody across the board would stop being so defensive and except our faults our eyes would see some glaring problems.You usually see them in these blogs
jgirl
well, when you get engaged im sure your in-laws and your chosson will be so relieved that you don’t need anything fancy you only want to marry your chosson and live happily ever after. your telling me you rather have a 5 ct. CZ than a 1.5 ct. real diamond ring just for your friends?! are you also the type of girl who’s going to ask her friends if they like how her chosson looks!??!?!?! you really really have a very low self esteem. you sound like a little kid who thinks if she wears nice cloth she’ll have a lot of ‘popular’ friends!! GROW UP!!!!
BTW MOST CHASIDISH SATMAR GIRLS DO NOT GET MANICURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All men are not created equal. The Rebbes and wealthy people should not be obligated to have the same weddings as the middle class. The takonos should be geared to the amount of charity someone gives yearly.
Now it’s time for the Litvaks to learn from the Satmars and make takanos to prevent the poor bnei torah from going bankrupt. For starters, stop the bachurim from asking for exorbitant support. All wedding expenses and support should be shared equally between the choson’s and kalla’s parents. And follow the satmerer takanos
Next time I go to the rebbe I will give monopoly money for the Kvittel. Same as a CZ ring. The hasids should make the takanos, not the rebbe.
How about assering Shtreimels and Borasalinos and saving innocent furry animals- and a whole cartload of money?
Ploiderer, you’re ploidering. For the last thousand years, people have been supporting their sons in law to sit and learn. It’s an extremely expensive undertaking, and many of us cannot handle it. You want a ben torah? Pay for it. Not because of extortion or profiteering– but simply because it happens to be an expensive undertaking. Nobody is forcing anyone to davkeh look for someone who is going to sit and learn.
I give the Satmar Rebbe a lot of credit for doing this, it’s about time a leader gets up and fixes things.
I wonder which Godol will get up and fix the SHIDDUCHIM crisis!
how about the rebbe getting cheaper bekaches and less shtreimlach then the rebbes can preach how we should spend our money
oh i love the cz idea
cubic zirconia??? diamonds are forever!!! and man, some of these rebbes ought to learn how to spend less on themselves instead of worrying bout how much everyone else is spending!! a fur coat?!? caddies?!? and come on whats an engagement w/o a l’chayim?
this idea is well lets just say nice….practical?????let time show otherwise.
34, that may be true but there are also many talmidei chachamim who were NOT supported by family. Perhaps boys should delay dating by a year or more to get more solid learning under their belts.
Lgbg: There is a character trait that you clearly seem to be missing: Think before you talk. As well, stop assuming that you know me, or anything about me. I may be single, working two jobs, and living in a hut, Married to a millionaire who showers me only with beautiful, expensive things, or to a pauper who can’t earn enough money to be able to pay the rent. I could be 45 and divorced, or 18 and happily naïve. You might want to be a little more careful when you talk to people. I hope not to offend you, but to open you’re eyes a little to the very vain and difficult world out there. Hopefully soon you will meet your bashert and together you will grow and realize that it takes more than just a 1.5 carat diamond (plastic or not) ring to build a strong relationship.
Just curious – are there a lot of loopholes? Also, how are they gonna enforce these takanos?
Okay folks, here is the truth as I hear it:
First of all, these Tankonos are at the request of the Chassidim, not a handed down dictatorship from the Rebbe.
The Rebbes have no problems affording their chasunas. But, the average Yid, just can’t afford to marry his children off anymore.
Things have gotten out of hand.
The “Expectations” have become just unreal. All of these expectations are expensive. On both side, Kallahs and Chassanim have gotten to the point where they “Expect” some unrealistic things.
Every time a new gift is instituted by someone, it quickly becomes a new minhag!
All the gifts from chosson to kallah and kallah to chosson have gotten out of hand. I remember when the chooson only “expected” a watch, and not a very expensive one at that. The kallah expected only a pair of earrings, OR a pearl necklace. Again not extravagant. Diamond rings, well once upon a time, the kallahs were happy with a small stone. Not today. Today they want SIZE.
Then the cost of the weddings have gotten out of hand. The cost of music has gone through the roof, and the long-lasting weddings that continue to all hours, add much to the bill. When you have 10 kids, and you are working for a living, making a chasina every year can break you.
Sure, furniture, and linens and other things have also gotten a bit over the top too, but that is at least stuff the couple will use for many years. But even there, there is no reason for 7 complete expensive linen sets. What is wrong with Wal-Mart sets? They too can last years.
These hard-working chassidim were begging for a solution. These takonos were needed. Without them, any time one side would hint at watching the costs, the other side would freak out, or the chosson and kallah would think they are getting the short end of the stick.
These takonos are not the whole list. There are more. Like there is no reason for a chosson to need two streimlech to get married. (A nice regular Shtreimel, costing thousands, and a cheaper “Raigen” Streimel for when the weather is bad) I got only a raigen streimel, figuring when I could afford a nicer one, I would get one myself. Where here is it years later, and I realize there is nothing wrong with my raigen streimel. It still looks like new, and in another couple of years, it can be reconditioned.
A full set of chosson’s clothing, 2 suits, 1 bekeshe, 1 reshvulka, 1 pr. Shabbos Hoisen, 1 Raincoat, etc., can be purchased at G & G for not much more than $1,000.00!, and a low-cost streimel for another $1,200.00. Now add Shabbos shoes, white socks, a few shirts, and other accessories, and the Chosson can be “equipped” for $2,500.00
The Chosson’s seforim expectations have also gotten kind of high. Every chosson “expects” a Chosson shas, a Chosson Shulchan Aruch and Tur, as well as some other basic seforim. Right there can be an easy $2,500.00
So, without any watches or other junk, clothing and seforim alone, you have $5,000.00
Oh… and we forgot 2 Talleisim, 2 Tallis Bags, a Pair of Rabbainu Tam tefillin. Right there is a minimum of another $1,500.00 We are now up to $6,500.00 for the chosson.
Can the kallah’s side pay for all this and make a chasina too?
There are expenses for the Vort. Right there it can be an easy $2,000.00 if one is trying to impress. The Rebbe’s takono of chips, cookies and soda is a great thing. Why do we need to spend ourselves broke trying to impress… and all before the wedding has started.
The Kalla can, of course, use a gown from a gemach, but even that is not too cheap, what with alterations, and accessories. But, she wants, and expects those 7 sets of linens, the best of course, a $10,000.00 dining room set, expensive bedroom and living room sets, etc., Oooops, forgot a couple of sheitlech that she DOES need (unless she will be wearing only a teechel or shpits and teechel). But, thank G-d, now that we don’t use the human hair sheitlech, due to avodah zurah problems, those short, chassidishe, synthetic ones are now in the $300-$500 range each, instead of $2,000 ea.
Oh, I forgot the menorah for the Chosson, and a Leichter for the Kallah (with tray, tzinder). There too, what in the world is wrong with silverplate? Is Sterling really necessary?
Again, forgot the machzorim, siddurim,.etc., personalized leather covers, of course.
You say they are spoiled? Well, what are these kids to do when all their friends are getting the same thing?
Then comes the chasuna. When the line of men for the mitzvah tantz gets crazy long, it can add an extra hour or more to the cost of the band, and the catering hall. Some wanted a “No-Band” takona, wanting one-man bands only.
What is wrong with a no choice, chicken only meal?
Add all this up in your minds, or use a calculator, and then try to understand how any working family could afford a chasina a year!
They do it. They work 100 hours per week, and borrow money, and do it, for their kids would never be able to get married if they didn’t.
Unfortunately, 5 years down the road, the family is making their 6th chasina, while still paying off the first 5.
This crisis has gotten so bad, that the Chassidim were BEGGING for this kind of relief.
Sure, many of you say the Kallah will not want a CZ. But that is only because everyone was getting a diamond. But when everyone is getting a nice ring with a CZ, she can be just as happy with that, just as the chosson can be just as happy with a $1,200 raigen streimel instead of an $8,000 sable streimel.
Both sides need to learn to re-adjust to today’s realities.
Oh, and on top of all this, the couple wants financial help for a couple of years while the chosson is in kollel. But today’s amounts that they expect from the families are much higher than they used to be due to those crazy high rents, car insurance, gas, and other expenses that are out of proportion to what they were only $10 years ago.
How about the cost of medical insurance for the couple, a good policy that includes maternity?
Bottom line, those takonos are a good and very needed thing. They maybe have not gone far enough. But they are a good beginning.
Other suggestions: Pay the photographer for digital images on CD’s only. Couple can pay for albums later, at much lower cost than direct from the photog. No extra expensive albums to distribute to family members. Give them a digital picture frame with all the photos uploaded. No overpriced prints.
No need to buy gifts for chosson’s or kallah’s siblings or parents.
One of the most important gifts we can provide for our kids, is an example of financial responsibility for them to follow in their lives together. Let’s not teach them to stay in debt their whole life.
all you litvaks out their just make fun of the chassidim but at least they have a leader that is willing to take a stand against the waste that takes place at our weddings.
when will our roshei yeshivas and rabbonim actualy adhere to the takanos that were posted in all the newspapers and lamposts around town.
the only baalei baatim that I know of who actually adhered to these takanos was Gedalya Weinberger and Shiya Markowitz, both men of means,who were the driving force to get the wedding takanos enacted. too bad many of those who signed at the bottom of the proclamation either themselves couldn’t keep the takanos or were busy pandering to their wealthy baalei baatim and made excuses why they had to attend.
We need leaders with backbones to adhere to these takanos and show the klal how it is done.
if we continue down this path the middle class of klal yisroel will cease to exist and we will have noone to blame but ourselves
26 is correct about the example and the ‘cadillac’.
42, THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING THIS SO CLEARLY. HOPEFFULY OTHER COMMUNITIES WILL SOON START FOLLOWING THE TAKANOS TOO
#10: “the point of diamond is not to spendbig money”.
On the contrary, the point of a diamond engagement ring is precisely to spend big money. The whole point of this extremely goyisher minhag is that if the guy breaks the engagement, the girl can sell the ring. It’s effectively a mashkon to make sure he marries her. The custom started in the 1920s and ’30s, when Breach of Promise suits were abolished. Before that, if the guy broke off the engagement the girl could sue him.
What makes this so very goyish and inappropriate for yidden, is the unspoken reason why the girl would need such high compensation for a broken engagement. People were too tzniusdig to speak of such things in the open, but the real reason was the expectation that she would not be able to marry anyone else, because on the smach of the engagement they, er, ate matzoh on Erev Pesach, so to speak. Surely such a distasteful origin should be enough to make the whole custom of a diamond engagement ring mo’us by erliche yidden.
And that’s beside the questions it raises whether a ring could be mistaken for kiddushin, and the shaylos that can therefore develop if the shidduch is ch”v broken.
firstly no i don’t know who you are.your 100% correct about that. however the way you wrote your comment sounds like your a kid.
secondly, you don’t know who i am.
thirdly ever heard of the saying “it’s not the ringle it’s the yingle”? well i highly hold by that saying!!
and fourthly thank you so much for caring for me so much. your much to kind!
for everyones info:
i found our from a very reliable source-these takanas are NOT MANDATORY!! the girl has to sign that she agrees with these takanos! and only around 30 girls signed!
#48- UCH…IM READY TO DUMP MY RING
MY DEAR FRIENDS,
PLEASE TELL ME WHY DO YOU MIND THESE TAKONAS TAKING EFFECT?
IF THEY DO SUCCEED, DONT YOU ALL THINK WE WILL BREATHE OFF MUCH EASIER??