Dear Yeshivaworld,
I would like to pose a question to your readers and get their responses.
I own a restaurant in a small, frum community in the Midwest. B”H, we have been operating for many years and we donate a lot of food for cost or free for tzdokos all throughout the city.
There is one organization who I never charge when they pickup meals in the store to take to people in their homes or R”L in the hospital. They also have fund raisers throughout the year and they order food from us for a group of usually 80-100 people, which we give them mostly discounted and even some stuff for free.
However, every time they order for these larger events they always call the day before and ask for one more item for free. It could be soup, rolls or a cookie.
It bothers me. I don’t know if it’s my yetzer horah not wanting to do another mitzvah or if they are really rude in taking an arm when being offered a hand.
I asked a sheilya and my rov said I should talk to the person in charge and bring it to their attention. That is too embarrassing and I feel like they might hesitate to call me if they need something in the future. On the other hand I don’t want to be taken advantage of.
I would love some feed back from readers.
Thanks.
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31 Responses
This is what I would do.
First tell them how highly you think of them. Then tell them that you would love to be able to give them free extras, but you cannot always afford to do so.
Chabdehu V’chushdehu!!!!
I would start of by telling them how happy you are to help them. Then you can explain to them that the extras you can give them once in a while but not on a constant basis because you also need the parnossoh. I think they will then understand without feeling bad!
Tell them that your increasing expenses is making it difficult for you to keep providing them with anything extra that they did not ask for at the time of the order. If they would like extra things they should tell you about them in advance. you are doing a tremendous chesed and they should reciprocate by letting you know what they will need in advance as opposed for trying to shtup in every extra they can last minute.
Do they know that you are giving them the food at cost price or less?! Sometimes these organisations have no idea that they are being given the food at such a reduced rate. It might be worthwhile to clarify this point. The organisers who originally knew may have changed and the new ones may not know what the arrangement was. Look into it first.
Dear Chaver,
I have a friend thjat is in the catering line in Brooklyn. He told me that when theTzedokos call him he automactically jacks up the price. Then when they ask for a discount he gives them the regular price and makes them feel happy. You can do the same by inflating your price. Then including a “free” dessert.
Best Wishes, a Brooklyn Chaver.
I think that the owner of the restaurant is doing a tremendous chesed! The greater the mitzvah, the greater the yetzer hara is, as the owner states himself, and we have to outsmart the yetzer hara as in all situations.
To be dan l’kaf zechus of these people, I really think it is a possibility that they do not realize the extent of what they are asking. I see that sometimes some people who are involved in chesed do not always realize that not everyone is able to do as much chesed as them. Now, there is nothing wrong with this, it is only to their credit that they are so involved in chesed.
But with all miscommunication, it is better to speak up before a small resentment turns into a huge resentment. That is not good, since if you end up being very resentful and then continue to give them food but only with half a heart, you are losing some of the z’car in this wonderful mitzvah, which is such a loss!
They really may not realize what a difficulty it is for you in regard to short notice and price. We all know that we demand things of people (especially parents) without fully appreciating what they are giving us.
If you can swallow financially and emotionally this challenge then your z’car will probably be amazing! But if you cannot, and understandably so, then don’t try to do more than you could. Hashem wants us only to do what we can. If you are going to be resentful then everything, chas v’shalom, can be lost, and then it is not worth anything. If that is the case, then speak up.
Chazak V’amaz! Daven for seiatah d’smayiah that your words should come out and be heard pleasantly.
If you are concerned they will not want to ask you anymore, then know that what you feel is what comes out of your mouth. If you really do want to continue to give to them to the best of your ability then they should be able to sense that.
Hatzlacha raba!
Try saying that your sorry, you can’t. You never know, it might work. Many of these orginazations appreciate what you do for them but are not sure at what point it turns into ‘taking advantage.’ They definitely don’t want to take advantage and lose everything!
Let them know nicely, I’m sure they’ll be accepting.
This letter came at a good time for me, as I have been contemplating for weeks whether to raise such an issue in a public forum. Firstly, let me praise you for your mitzvah. This is a tremendous good deed. Secondly, I usually look to find good in klal yisroel. Like the others have written, speak up. Let them know that as much as you love to do good deeds, this is your parnossah and you have to set limits to your contributions.
Now to my point. We run a small service business. We earnt ourselves a wonderful reputation for our prompt service. We strive to offer competitive prices. Why is it that we dread dealing with some of the local Jewish customers? We very rarely run into similar issues with non-Jewish customers. One case in point: A long-time customer who always bargained AFTER having the work done and after receiving the bills, recently had 6 bills up for payment that he refused to pay. His excuse: ” I will tell you what I agree to pay” so for a bill for $1450. he submitted $1,000.00 and for $745.00 he paid $525.00. Legal issues aside, where is menshlichkeit? where is honesty? This customer is a ganev, and unless I hire a lawyer, I have no recourse. At this rate, we PAID him for these jobs. Maybe some of you have ideas on how to deal with customers who take advantage of vendors, like mine and like the institution in the original post.
Mohel613-
That is just plain and simple WRONG!
Thats what I call Yiddishe Shtiklach, you dont want to charge them less than anyone else then tell it straight to their face dont go in round about ways to “trick” another yid.
It is so nice to hear about the chesed done in our community. “Mi Kamchah Yisroel”
I however have a hard time understanding the advice given by mohel613
Do you consider hiking up prices for tzedakah a good thing??? Tzedakah organizations work so hard to help people, why con’t everyone help along with them? Hiking up a price and then giving them the regular price and have them feel indebted to you is considered stealing. You are stealing their gratitude. How can one justify that? If you don’t want to deal with tzedakah cases then don’t, but don’t take advantage of the situation.
Newcomer-
What about instituting a new policy:
“no job done til you paid the full sum” 🙂
This way you wont run into these kinds of problems.
Mohel613: While practically that sounds like a good and creative idea, It may be gneivas Hadaas. Better ask your local halachic authority. (Unless he is involved with that institution, then ask your non-local halachic authority.)
to # 8 my feeling is that with these customers you create a policy of paymeny before services are rendered or simply tell him to find himself someone else for his work
One time go and see where ur food is going. Then say “a finger not a hand”, or be smarter than chazal and NOT be chabdahu vchashdeyhu.
#12, thanks for your advice, it is not possible to do so, as all our competitors offer 30-60 day credit. These are not private (retail)customers.
to “newcomer”.It is so sad to hear your type of problems. I hear it many times and i also have heard Jews say the following many times “With Jews, it is good to eat kugel and go the Mikvah”. i dont know why Jews have this reputation among ourselves. Another merchant has told me that he can’t understand – he is giving the store owner an opportunity to make a Parnasssah – why must the store owner act as if he (the store owner) is doing a favor by paying his bills? Meanwhile, the merchant is struggling on his end because he cant pay his bills. Where is the mentchlikiet?
To “Taken Advantage Of”
we are also in a business where we are asked for our products. We tell them our policy:
We bake cake (“cake” was made up to protect ourselves) and we give money (Tzedakah). If you want us to donate free cake, we can’t do it because that is our Parnassa. If you want money, ask and we will gladly treat you like any other organization/person that asks for Tzedakah.
To #9: COD brother, it’s the only way. I also run a service business and BL’A”H COD works great for me. If they can’t pay COD, I’ll take a postdated check (and usually my work will not be completed until the date on the check). I tell them upfront about my policy and I never have issues. If COD doesn’t work in your line of work, put a hold on their credit card before you start the job. And if you can’t do that, get them to sign a proposal or they can accept responsibility for payment by replying “I accept” to an emailed proposal. People forget, especially someone who’s used to bargaining. If your customers take offense at this, tell them it’s your company’s policy and there are no exceptions. Make sure they don’t take it personal. Hatzlocha!
I understand your feelings…however, after a few minutes of thought, I would venture to say that in all likelihood, while they (hopefully) plan the event down to the last details, there is always someone who thinks that something is missing, etc… The organization might disagree with them (or maxed out the budget already) and therefore says that they would not pay for it. So they all figure, if it comes for free, fine, otherwise, forget it.
Now, how you respond to them, is your choice.
No matter what, you should definitely let them be aware of what you already included free/discounted, etc…
(The Gemara tells us that one who gives his friend a gift, MUST let them know….)
If you are really interested in giving it to them for free, go ahead, but tell them that you would really rather know the whole order in advance, as it puts a strain on your whole day/workforce when it’s the last minute.
If you aren’t interested in giving it to them for free, then tell them that you already included XYZ and it’s hard for you to do it for free, but you would do it at discount/cost/full price, whatever.
As far as being a test– yeah, it most likely is one –like most other things. But tests are given to us to learn something from…. If we don’t learn the lesson and change, they will keep coming in one form or another, until we figure out the message. So good luck with that one ;-)….
Hatzlacha!
say. I very much enjoy giving to your organization and being a part of this great mitzvah. However, I kindly request that when submitting your order you provide me with more advanced notice. Further, since I am giving you all the food at a discount, it is important to understand that I cannot always afford to provide you with free items. When I am financially able, I will however I would greatly appreciate it if you do not ask for free items, since it puts me in an uncomfortable position, when I feel unable to do so financially.
I agree with some of the other posts that you should absolutely say something for two reasons. 1. So that you don’t build resentment towards them. 2. You never know maybe they don’t know that you are giving them everything at cost or discounted and that’s why the feel comfortable asking for free items.
Finally if you feel uncomfortable telling them in person write them a letter, and then clarify over the phone. Either way, it’s important to be a good person but the only way for you to continue to give is by them respecting the fact that there is a limit to taking and a correct way of asking for things.
Hatzlocha, may hashem help you continue to do this great chesed
2 quotes from the article/letter:
1) “I asked a sheilya and my rov said I should talk to the person in charge and bring it to their attention.”
and
2) “I would love some feed back from readers.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK- here is my feedback — Go back and read the first quote that I cut and pasted from your letter.
being as you are a business person and know the value of talking properly to customers, I am sure that you will find the right words to explain to the organization the situation that you are in. don’t rush, write it out, rehearse it, re-write it, and deliver when ready.
hatzlohca rabba
(and can you send over a few cookies for the advice)
This is a sticky situation. First of all, how have you responded to these requests before? If you say “Sure” as though it is not a problem, it is understandable that they will keep asking.
I agree with #21 – saying something like, “(Name), I would love to give you the (cookies/soup/rolls) but I can’t today. If you can let me know a few days ahead of time next time, I am happy to help.” (Or something along those lines.)
Hatzlacha and may your chesed bring you only brachos.
Just say no to the extras. Is that so difficult?
That’s like when people come to colllect.
B”H i can give, but no matter how much or how little i give they argue with me for a little more.
How do they know how much i can afford?
( Sometimes they’re nice and offer to accept a post dated check.)
I would just like to tell you how chashuv and beautiful a mitzvah you are doing may hashem repay you double and triple may you have so much that you will give them all thay need.
Ashrecha VeTov Lach
To all the readers,
One thing that we all need to remember: there is no Kapara for Chillul Hashem.
When a person gets chessed and then takes advantage of it tryi9ng to squeeze an extra item this creates a bad name for yidden and causes a Chillul Hashem.
Also, the services story above: this is a straight forward chillul Hashem.
P{eople who give themsleves all kind of heterim for stealing (especially when it is from Goyim!!!) are causing tremedous “Kitrug” on klal yisroel an Hashem Yerachem what the result of this is.
How about all those who “buy” equipment on the way to the mountains in the summer and then join the line on their way out to return these “used!!!” goods.
Do you think the stores are foolish?
This is all Chillul Hashem!!!!
Let us all start watching not only hopw the other yidden look (do they dress with black hats and jackets?) but rather how do we look in the eyes of others klapei shamayim.
ASHRAI CHELKOCH!!!!
We just need some more people like you, to bring MOSHIACH.
Just don’t be discouraged by all these people who are just out there to justify it to them selves for not doing Chesed themselves as if it is because of those bad people out there.
True that there are sometimes very inconsiderate people out there that will take advantage of people like you. One thing is very important to remember in such A case when we do any act of chesed, not to be discouraged by people like that.
But in your case I believe that this is not even the case true you know yourself how much you are going out of your way to do your kindness but the receiver on the other end might not even be aware of that, it is therefore important that you have an open talk with them. And if you’r afraid they might not come back to you and you might not be able to go on with your chesed, as unfortunate this might sound, but I believe that that there are enough people out there in dire need for your chesed that might even appreciate it a lot more
About being taken advantage of here is one story for you.
A guy calls a friend of mine to deliver 6 BOXES from POINT A TO POINT B (65 MILES)
AND WHEN THE person making the delivery goes to the pick up he sees 6 warmers and 12 boxes and other stuff.
To make a long story short- the person who ordered my friend yells at the driver when he refuses to take the food and states 6 boxes and 6 warmers
(with food leaking all over the place)
is the same thing!
Well for an extra 30.00 or so it’s the same thing in my friends business.
A rov was called and paskened that the driver is not mechuyav to do the job because the job status (agreements)was not honest. A box is a box and a warmer with food in it is not a box but a warmer!
The person who called my friend was outraged as to how he can decide on a Friday afternoon to mess up a simcha and not deliver food etc etc.
The moral of the story is :
It’s not a good idea to lie,(job desription) steal (price based on job) & take advantage of a driver especially on a Friday afternoon!
As someone who used to work for a nonprofit tzedaka and arrange these kinds of events, I definitely advise you to speak up. In order to do the most good with the money we were able to raise, we would always ask our suppliers if they would be bale to lower the price, although I DO think it is bad to ask for something at the last minute.
I remember one time in particular with (surprisingle enough) the fellow who supplied food – we always asked him if he could lower the price, and he always did. One time, he finally said that the original price he quoted us was already deeply discounted – we had no idea. He was helping us out all along out of the goodness of his heart, but we didn’t realize and ended up looking like we were trying to squeeze him.
Especially since your rav paskened that you do so, call the person in charge of the tzedaka. Do this at a time when you are NOT working on a job for them. Tell him that you are happy to help support their work, which is why you always give them as much of a discount and free items as you can. Let him know that since you are giving them as much as you can, you are in an uncomfortable position when they ask additional discounts or free items. Also let them know that you need them to sign off on the final menu no less than 48-72 hours in advance, and there can be no changes after that. This includes all items you are bringing, and quantities. I have found this is pretty standard practice for caterers… explain to him that last minute changes puts too much of a strain on your staff and ends up costing you money.
You are doing a good thing, keep up the good work and don’t let the negativity of the y”h interfere.
I just thought of an idea i am certain you will like.
For every “order” they pick-up, in addition to the discounted bill, make a second bill showing the difference between what they paid and what you could have charged, and let them sign off as “no charge” or donation. Maybe even give you a tax deductible receipt.
PS This kind of tzedoka is what the gemorra refers to; Someone who wants to preserve his wealth should “Yita Eishel”. One explanation is do mitzvohs from your business itself.