The International Conference of Chabad Lubavitch Emissaries opened in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, N.Y., Wednesday night. Thousands of emissaries are attending the five-day conference, which features intense learning opportunities, workshops and discussions where participants can share ideas new initiatives and the best ways to reach Jews in communities scattered across the globe.
Among the conferences offerings were two sessions on Thursday dealing with counseling to the mentally ill and comforting the sick.
The workshops span a variety of topics and are being presented in five different languages. Special programs are for emissaries from Israel, the former Soviet Union, France and those that cater specifically to travelers. Several discussions will take place on Sunday between emissaries who run college campus-based Chabad Houses.
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71 Responses
It is heartwarming to see the true Achdus Yisroel and Ahavas Chinom portrayed with this “yeshivah World” report. May we continue to only love one another and see each others positive points and thus bring about the geuloh hoamitis vehashlaimo! It would be amazing if we could continue this spirit throughout the comments (if there are to be any).
Dear Poshuteyid,
Why is this heartwarming? Here we have thousands of misguided fellow yidden spending millions in order to make our other secular brothers misguided as well. As per the deya of gedolei yisroel from the Brisker Rav z”l down, these people are krum to the core, and fighting them tooth and nail is exactly what we should be doing. I can see it already! Pinchos should have not killed zimri and YeshivaWorld could have written a nice heart-warming article about this nasi biyisroel and you would have hailed this as achdus biyisroel……
To Stam:
Is there a Halocho anywhere that for a Tinok Shenishba, the din is Kanoim Pogim bo? Since when is bringing people closer to Yiddishkeit “misguided”? I understand that it is not everyone’s derech, but it i snot misguided!
stam a deya,
you seem so worried about the misguided people. why don’t you just worry about yourself and keep all that loshon hora, richilus and motzi shem ra to yourself.
so instead of bringing back jews to their faith, we (as in I) should still be out of the loop- studying in college, never ever tasting the warmth of judaism??! i mean, how else??!!
Chabad helps a ton!!
Dear Bugyes,
Stam a Deya’s issue is entirely different; it has nothing to do with what our “fellow yiden” are doing because by now the ENTIRE “velt” is doing exatly the same!! and not only that, if you look in the “velts” newspapers you will see that they are taking credit for having been the “first” people in kiruv dating back many years!! Amazing if you think about it because up until just a little while ago our “fellow yiden” were being fought tooth and nail for reaching out to our “other” fellow yiden and now it seems that this concept has been around for many years and long before Chabad even thought of it!!! Go figure… Rather stam a deya’s comment is based entirely on Sinas Chinom unfortunately!
Stam a Day’a: Well said, though I do appreciate Poshute Yid’s comment that these are fellow Jews and YW’s willingness to report their convention, as incorrect and misguided as they may be, is a true display of Ahavas Chinam.
Bugyes: Bringing people closer to Yiddishkit IN AN INCORRECT FASHION is misguided and, likely, a violation of one or more issurim (lifnei Iver, Anochi Hashem, et al); It’s not a matter of derech that can be debated as one would semantics.
“stam a deya” Writes:
“these people (Chabad) are krum to the core, and fighting them tooth and nail is exactly what we should be doing.”
For some strange reason, Hashem Yerachem, there is such hatred to Cabad/Lubavitch, “Sinas Chinom”. There isn’t a thing that Lubavitch does which is not met with criticism.
The “Gra’a” ZT”L and the “Baal Hatanya” ZT”L have long made peace in “Gan Eden” but “Stam a Deya” preferrs to perpetuate the hatred, as “Avigder Der Pinsker” in the times of the “Gr”a” ZT”L. And we all know what happened to Avigder…
Did Harav Sach ZT”L or Reb Ahron Kotler ZT”L directed you to battle with Chabad? The fact that they had major differences with Chabad is not reason for you to stick your head between two mountains “Bein Shnei Hoorim”
“Mi Somcho L’eish” since when do you know what is “Krum” (crooket)” and what is “Straight.”
Are you clear in Shas and Poskim, that you became a spiritual judge? Or, do you know ten blatt of gemara, and that not too well.
Have you repented from all of your “Chatos Neurim” or do you still you still practice it (or worse) secretly?
Do you really believe in “Beias Hamoshiach”, or, secretly believe in nothing?
I once heard a Litvak criticizing Lubavitch as to why they run around learning “Tanya” with everyone, etc. So I said to him, OK, you are against Tanya, but “Chumash and Rashi” you certainly admit that it is good thing to learn with a fellow Jew who doesn’t know it, or is still not frum. So, why don’t you get up Shabbos afternoon and learn with Jews Chumash and Rashi?
But the answer is “that you want to sleep and “chropa” Shabbos after the Chulent, aii geshamk, a machaye.” However, the Lubavitcher after working hard a whole week runs around Shabbos afternoon with “Mesiras Nefesh” because that is what Lubavitch is all about, “Mesiras Nefesh” for another Jew, and that’s what the Bal Shem taught, “That often a Jew comes down to this world for seventy or eighty years, and the whole purpose of his neshama coming down in this world, is to do one, I repeat, one favor to another fellow Jew. And “Kal V’chomer” to do a spiritual favor to another fellow Jew. And since, deep inside your heart it bothers you that you don’t have that “Mesiras Nefesh”, therefore you can’t stand a Lubavicher.
Dig deep into your soul and you will realize that I am correct in my assessment!
Hashem should help that the “Sinas Chinum” should be uprooted from our hearts!!
One More Thing:
“stam a deya” Writes:
“these people (Chabad) are krum to the core, and fighting them tooth and nail is exactly what we should be doing.”
If “Stam a Daya” truly listens to his Gedolim, what is he doing having “Internet Access” they forbade it? The answer is; he listens to no one, and does what he wants to!!!
#4 – I’m in good company. Gedolei Yisroel were worried about it as well. Rav Shach use to show all american visitors how many sichos were against the 13 ikrim.
#5 – I admit they have done much good. And you are the proof ! But how much harm was done in the process!!!! I personally know many people out of town that would never consider becoming frum thinking that being frum means to be a lubavitcher and to believe in a dead messiach etc…
#6 – I take offense that you accuse of sinas chinam. Being brought up out of town, I had two lubavitcher rabbeim, went to gan yisroel, and have followed this group closely. My brother use to say the same to me until I started quoting different sichos to him. Check out their websites and call their hotline. You, as well as others here, will be shocked at what you hear. The difference between you and me is how well you know this group. I use to have these conversations 20 years ago with shmuley boteach who was a good friend of mine in yerushalim until we parted ways AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM!!!!
#8 #9 – your comments about chatous neurim are quite distasteful (and I’m surprised it got passed the editor) so I feel no need to respond to your comments “al taan lekisil etc”. However, I will say that I have yeshivanet as my “internet” provider. I only have access to yeshivaworld, jpost, antivirus. etc…Perhaps, you should join as well…..perhaps then you will watch the way you talk…
#10 – I don’t get it, and I don’t think you do either.
to stam you obviously haven’t left the daled amus of Lakewood for you to spit out such sinas chinum.if you would have travelled the world you would see how much good these shluchim “too oif” for yidishkite. how many yidden are able to daven with a minyan and eat kosher in Hong Kong, Peru, Siberia etc. etc.These people are moiser nefesh to bring back to yidishkite thousands of yidden year round. your idea of kiruv is the 2 week trips called Seed. For many who go on these trips it is nothing more than a free vacation. How much mesiras nefesh goes into Seed in San Diego or Dallas or Miami
#13 – I grew up out of town and saw first hand their work. As I said before, I am the first one to admit to their mesiras nefesh etc… But it comes at a very high price….kefira. I’m not impressed with families living in India and Peru where they destroy the chinuch of their children to be mekarev Israeli backbackers. I don’t care how many they are mekarev, it is absolutely foolish to destroy their children in the process. The ends do not justify the means. Our job is to keep the mitzvos. Hakadosh Boruch hu will run his world. The Lakewood model of kollelim out of town has accomplished more then any chabad house. If you look at Lakewood kollelim, aish hatorah, ohr sameach, all the other programs “our side of the fence” has produced, you will see we have accomplished much more than any chabadnick could wish to do. They are just pros at PR. If my words are hurtful to people, I sincerely apologize and please be assured that I do not mean to insult anyone personally (believe it or not, I have lubavitcher friends as well!!!). I am just simply fed up with the propaganda machine that they are the only one who care about other people. Did anyone out there consider the fact that perhaps the only reason that Lubavitch has any amount of success in the first place, is because there others out there sitting in their “daled amus of Lakewood”…..as the chazon ish writes?????
I will leave the mud slinging (or the defense from it) to other posters, but a sincere thank you to yeshivaworld.com for reaching out to Chabad. Chabad is never (almost) reached out to by the litvisher world and they wonder why chabad never takes their rebukes seriously (hocheiach tocheiach ES AMITECHA means that only a friend may rebuke, but if you only have bad to say about somebody, then when a rebuke opportunity presents itself, you are forbidden by the Torah to rebuke) when there is indeed legitimate criticism.
Kudos to this website for initiating some true Ahavas Chinam to Chabad by posting some of the positive newsworthy events which go on in Chabad. I don’t know for sure what the opinion of every Gadol would be on this matter, but I think the Chofetz Chaim would be proud of this wonderful display of sholom within the Yiddishe community.
RagachoversAssistant
Stam is not trying to perpetuate the Gaon’s stance toward chassidim. The fact that people (including many gedolei Yisroel) are against Chabad has nothing to do with the fact that they are chassidim. It has to do with the fact that Chabad is the Rebbe and the Rebbe ONLY! They don’t have any other gedolim in Chabad. Your name refers to the Rogatchover. I’m sure you’re proud of his Chabad background. I’d love to see his face were he able to walk into 770 today:
FROM HAARETZ
At the front of the main room at Chabad headquarters in Crown Heights sits the Rebbe’s empty chair – its cushions unruffled for more than 12 years. The chair is kept as it was during his lifetime.
Before the daily afternoon prayers, a number of the men perform the ritual of unfurling a Persian rug, moving the Rebbe’s chair out from under a desk, fiddling with his prayer shawls and books as if he were about to walk in and take his seat.
The prayers conclude as normal, but the service is followed by singing and chanting with Hora dancing around the central podium. “Long live our Master, our Rebbe, King Messiah,” sing the dancing men and boys as they form conga lines – a routine part of this thrice-daily ritual.
The dancing suddenly stops and a sudden hush silences the room. Four young boys each brandishing a large yellow flag bearing the Rebbe’s crest part the dancers and move alongside the platform that supports the Rebbe’s chair and desk.
Raising the flags high they chant in unison: “We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! WE WANT MOSHIACH NOW!”
A man of about 40 years of age carefully reverses the rituals that had prepared the Rebbe’s chair for prayers as the rapt crowd watches. The service terminated, the men stand at ease. Many are wearing yellow lapel-pins, signifying commitment to extremist messianism.
Members of the congregation were happy to explain:
What do the pins signify?”It symbolizes our dedication to the Rebbe above all else.”
Above all else? Above God? “As far as we are concerned, we can pray to the Rebbe and he can deal with God for us.”
Is that not turning the Rebbe into a god himself, an idol of your own creation? “The Rebbe was not created; the Rebbe has always been around and always will be.”
If one believes in God but leaves the Rebbe aside, is one still Jewish? “When the messiah reveals himself, those who didn’t see him won’t be saved, so you should work on…” He is interrupted. “Look, what you need to do is start with God and work your way up to the Rebbe.”
While it may seem bizarre to describe electrician-cum-rabbi M. M. Schneerson in this way, many of the people seen as messianist view Schneerson as a demigod. They are loathe to state this explicitly, but they will assign him characteristics of God, pray to him and, when pressed, suggest that there is really no difference between him and God. Since the Rebbe was perfection personified, he is greater than any man that ever lived; ergo he is godly – omnipotent, omniscient and unlimited.
Virtually no one within the movement today is willing to deny that Schneerson was the greatest man that ever lived nor that he was perfect.
None have a problem with praying to Schneerson, using his books for divination in place of the Bible. Even amongst those viewed as moderates, “the Rebbe” is often substituted for God in normal conversation, sprinkling their remarks with comments such as “may the Rebbe help you” or “the Rebbe is watching over us.”
Even among the moderate minority, the distinction between Schneerson and God is decidedly blurred. Asking adherents whether Schneerson will return as the Messiah is unlikely to yield a directly negative response.
“They say that God was born in 1902 and is now 105 years old. You can pray to the Rebbe and he will answer, and he was around since the beginning of time. But you must be careful to pray only to the Rebbe as a spiritual entity and not the body that was born in 1902.”
Does the Rebbe have a will of his own? What if the Rebbe and God disagree? “That is a ridiculous question! They are not separate in any way.”
So the Rebbe is a part of God. “Yes, but it is more complex than that. There is no clear place where the Rebbe ends and God begins.”
Does that mean the Rebbe is infinite omnipotent and omniscient? “Yes of course,” an Argentine student says in Hebrew. “God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that’s how we know the Rebbe can’t have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical.”
Chabad members have become irrecovably fixated on their dead leader. If the seemingly inexorable rise of the vocal yellow pin brigade progresses apace, the movement founded to bring rigor and intellectualism to Hasidic Judaism may well face a benighted future.
By the way, there are many people who are mekarev our fellow Jews al pi derech haTorah; all this baloney about how lubavitch is the only one that does kiruv and you’re so happy to have your cholent rather than being “out there”, is motzei shem ra.
Lakewood just opened a kollel in the Miami area, and I think Aguda started one in Dallas, both of which will, obviously, learn Chumas-Rashi (and NOT Tanya) with local baalei bayis wishing to learn more. (YU has Rabbis all over the place, too, BTW.)
But, well beyond that, there are hundreds of shuls in the New York area and around the country that have no affiliation with Chabad, yet – look at that – the local Rabbanim are moser nefesh to be there with their families in a relative midbar, and have been mekarev people who, by and large, have never studied in a Yeshiva and are very limited in their knowledge, to work to make them true ovdei Hashem biSimcha. And non-Chabad programs exist on some college campuses as well.
Chabad emmisaries’ mesirus nefesh is indeed admirable. But even if they were the only game in town, I believe the consensus of the gedolim is, to put it bluntly, better they should, temporarily, remain tinokos sheNishbu than to become a learned apikoreis with crooked hashkafos and deyos. Harbei Shiluchim LaMakom (in the NON-Chabad usage of the word “Shiluchim”), and He can bring them to His Torah the correct way.
#16 SDR
Either you are uneducated about Lubavitch, or you just wanted to bring this piece about the minority of Lubavitchers to add to the heat of this Sinaas Chinam.
Whatever it is, you need some help. Take stam a deya with you when you go for the help, you can both benefit from an unbiased, objective perspective.
To SDR:
You quote from Haaretz, is that where you get your Daas Torah? The anti FRUM newspaper?
Some of what the article says is true. There are people that do that. However it is not Chabad philosophy (or practice for that matter), as one who displays beliefs such as those in the article have their Shliach status removed, and there have been such cases.
Someone mentioned Shmueli Boteach. He is an example of someone who took Chabad ideas and manipulated them to fit his own agenda, and he is also an example of someone whose status as a Shliach was removed.
To “Stam a Daye”
I want to apologize for my remark to “Stam a Daye” last night at about 3:42am reagrding amchatous Neurim, I overstepped myself as it was 3:42 am.
I would appreciate it if the Editor could delete that paragraph.
I would like to challenge anyone of you lubavitch haters to have a conversation with a lubavitcher. (not an extremists- who are the minority-btw).
They know plenty of Gemara and can learn anything just as well as any lakewood man. Try it for yourself before you continue your ranting.
Hey proud:
Go back to http://www.770live.com it’s almost time to unroll the rebbe’s carpet for Mincha.
YECHI ADONEINU MOREINU V’RABBEINU MELECH HAMOSHIACH L’OLAM VO’ED! ay ay ay ay miyad tikaf MAMMASH!!!!!!!
To Ragachover,
Apology accepted.
To Jewsunite,
If you call me a lubavitch-hater you missed the boat. I don’t hate lubavitch. Infact on a personal level I find them very personable and their kavanos in general are leshem shomayim. However, they are simply beyond the pale of mainstream Judaism. Although I have been learning all my life, perhaps they can even learn better then me. So what? What does that prove?
Let’s bring some seichel to the conversation.
YW Editor was knowingly opening up a can of worms by posting this story. A little controversy to generate traffic on a website isn’t unheard of afterall. Everyone’s entitled.
But let’s face it. This website is dedcated to news of interest to the “yeshivishe velt”, and certainly a Chabad shluchim conference does not meet that basic criteria.
Something tells me that the “kings of ahavas yisrael” don’t report about Lev L’Achim asifos and the views of other gedolei yisroel on their websites or blogs.
Editors Note: Send us all information regarding any organizations asifos and they will be posted.
I am in middle of watching the convention live on chabad.org. It’s incredible to watch! 4,000 black hats representing 85 countries and a priceless amount of self sacrifice. Watching the speech of Lev Leviev (richest man in Israel), the roll call of all the countries and states, incredible! Thanks yw for reporting the event and not disrespecting the Lubavitch community despite some anti-Chabad critics.
shturem,
perhaps you should come to Lakewood and watch 6,000 people sitting and learning with tremendous mesirus nefesh. NOW THAT’S SOMETHING TO REPORT!!! THAT’S WHAT’S KEEPING THE WORLD TURNING !!!
What is such mesiras nefesh about that? Are they secretly learning in Russia hiding from the KGB? Are they risking their lives? Some of them probably just dont want to work. Its very nice that they learn I am sure it is a beautiful sight, but I dont see the Mesiras Nefesh in it.
It’s wonderful to see the one thing that binds Lakewood and Lubavitch together and brings achdus to Jews – It’s the good old US dollar.
Come on Yeshiva World, how much advertising money do you get from Lubavitch to publish Lubavitch news in a Lakewood news site?
Editors Response: Yeshivaworld does not get any money from Lubavitch for posting the news clip of their annual Shluchim event. Come to think of it……how much money are you willing to offer to keep Yeshivaworld free of Lubavitch news? 🙂
Just kidding. Have a nice day!
Well taken. That’s also admirable, but what I’m talking about is leaving your daled amos and going to share your Torah and Yiddishkeit with people from Timbuck Two.
It all boils down to one critical issue. If Chabad is a halachic movement then their overall actions should be commended; if not, it’s like cheering on a successful evangelical outreach convention.
#19, #20 Check out the first Sicha at the Rebbe’s ‘coronation’. He asks there how is it possible for chasidim to go to a Rebbe for intecession to HKB”H, when it is well known that it is forbidden to go to Hashem through a “memutze?” He answers there “Nimtza sheharabi hu atzmus ein sof mislabesh bguf gashmi” and there when one goes to the Rebbe, one is going to Hashem Himself. The chasidim quoted in the article are just following the dictates of their Rebbe.
It was upon hearing this sicha that R’ Ahron Kotler began his campaign against Chabad. Remember that R’ Ahron was niftar in 1962 (45 years ago today, 2 Kislev) long before the meshichist movement devloped that way it has. And he was still staunchly againt them, primarily based on the above quote.
midwesterner: Maybe if you’d like to accuse the Rebbe of apikurses r”l, please attach a copy of the sicha that the rebbe had stated that we can judge for ourselves, not just see your slanted take on a sicha.
For some reason people complain (such as poiderer) when you publish things which are about Lubavitch, when you are a Lakewood site only supposed to report on yeshiva news. If so why do they never complain about news stories such as:
-Simcha Felder’s Going After NYC Pigeons
-100 Cops Raid Multiple Offices To Gather Evidence Against Olmert
-Jewish Billionaire To Run For Georgian Presidency
-Massachusetts: Anti-Semitic School Board Member Resigns ?
Answer: Because it has everything to do with sinas chinam towards Lubavitch (after all Lubavitch has many yeshivas also!) and nothing to do with distraught viewers looking for yeshiva news and having the Trauma to notice non yeshiva news items such as the Lubavitch convention in New York.
By the way, the AP covered the story as well so they must have been payed by Lubavitch as well, and Simcha Felder, the Georgian Billionaire and the 100 cops raiding Olmerts office must have paid YW as well 🙂 !
Sruly: If it is such easy work to do, why aren’t 100 kiruv organizations a week founded? Because there is no money in it (besides maybe 3% of them which blossom after years of hard work), especially when they move out on $0 salary, and they don’t know where their next penny is coming from. If you like, look up Rabbi Yitzchok Meyer Lipszyc from Simferopol Ukraine (chabad.org can provide the contact info), and ask him how easygoing his life is, such as when he was held under gunpoint for six hours in his home by Ukranian bandits or the fact that he never knows where his next check to cover his monthly budget will come from. Alternatively, you can scroll down the list of cities/towns or countries Chabad is located at, and how many of them would you really consider living in.
The quote “Nimtza sheharabi hu atzmus ein sof mislabesh bguf gashmi” is an exact quote.
These (and others, such as when the Rebbe stated that the Ba’al HaTanya was on a higher level than R’ Yochanan Ben Zakai, because RYBZ was only osek in Toras hanigleh and therefore, the Rebbe speculates, it its possible that “Shoresh Nafsho (of RYBZ) b’imkei Haklipos” also an exact quote) are issues brought up by gedolim way bigger than me or anyone else ever logged on to this site.
Someone once comented to Rav Schach, “When you get to the olam ha’emes, the Gra will surely be makir tova to you for your macha’os.” Rav Schach responded, “Only the Gra? THe Ba’al Hatanya will be makir tova to me.”
Someone commented above that its about time the Yeshivos reached out to chabad. Actually, I never notice chabad reaching out to the Yeshivishe Olam.
Ever notice that the Vizhnitzer Rebbe is the Father in law of the Belzer and Satmar Rebbes, the Stoliner Rebbe is a son-in-law of the Bobover Rosh Yeshiva, the Telzer Roshei Yeshiva are mechutanim with the Mirrers, and the Lakewooders maker shiduchim with the Briskers? But when was the last time a significant Lubavitcher made a shiduch with anyone outside of their movement? These days, when someone from the meshichist movement makes a shiduch with someone from Merkoz (R’ Yudel Krinsky’s chevra, the not so publicly meshichist) that causes a scandal among certain elements of theirs.
I know R’ Itche Meir Lipszyc from Simferopol personally. (I’m a Midwesterner, and he lived in Southfield, MIchigan for a couple of years in the early 1970s) Extremely dedicated and devoted to his avoda. And not afraid to move to places where there isn’t very much Yioddishkeit. He was in Birmingham Alabama for an extended period before going to Simferopol. And the story of the armed bandits is a fascinating one, their mesirus nefesh is wonderful. BUT, when his wife, Rebbetzin Leah Lipszyc wrote her story down for publication, she quotes the tefila that she said while bound and being attacked. (This is a paraphrase, when I get home this evening, I know where I have the exact nusach saved.) “Rebbe, please save us!! We came out here to do your will, so I know the Rebbe won’t let me down.” She also uses the lashon “I davened to the Rebbe to save us.”
Lubavitch hate fest…. some things will never change…
By the way, I and many other Charedi -non-Lubavitchers chose to join their amazing event last night.
Lubaobs, forget these tipshim and continue working for all of klal Yisroel.
“yaroich yomim al mamlachtichem!!
midwesterner,
Actually Hagaon R. Yitchok Raitport is a Lubavitcher and does shidduchim outside Lubavitch. But then he’s wealthy too. So as I stated before, the US dollar is me’ached Lubabs and Litvaks. How many $$ is each “Yechi” worth? (Yes, yes, I know that R. Raitport is not a meshichist).
Shturem, I am totally with you. My comment was meant to Sam a deya who thinks because the lakewood guys learn all day they are having mesiras Nefesh. Meaning some of these kolel boys(the ones who are not interested in learning and lazy to work) get the easy way out. Sorry I was not more specific But for sure the Shluchim are totally Mesiras Nefesh. And from what I hear 90% of shluchims kids go on shlichus too!! And I too watched the Kinus, totally impressive!!!
Midwesterner:
Stating that you have an exact quote whilst falsifying a quote does not count, sorry. It’s a classic trick of people trying to beshmutz someone else.
About R’ Aharon Kotler: Another sheker vechozov. R’ Aharon started his milchomo against Lubavitch a long time before the Rebbe became rebbe, think Shanghai.
Will YeshivaWorld accept scanned files (.pdf)? And then post them? Otherwise I can’t help you. R’ Ahron had beefs with the previous Rebbe as well, but not nearly to the same degree. (You would have to go back to the Rebbe Rash’b, Rav Shalom Ber Schneerson, to find one that was truly integrated with the rest of gedolei Yisroel. Have you ever heard of the expression “Der Rebbe’s zun’s an eidem?) And R’ Ahron was never in Shanghai, so I’m sorry that I don’t know what you’re referring to.
There is a legend, that the room which we name after the pope, in certain circles it is (or was) referred to as ‘the Kotler.” If it is true, that ought to write them out of Anshei Shlomeinu right there.
Midwesterner, that’s a good deal different than “It was upon hearing this sicha that R’ Ahron Kotler began his campaign against Chabad.” then. He had “beef” with Chabad from long before – as mentioned.
You are aware that, contrary to your historical romanticism, there were some gedolim who did not get along with the Rebbe Rashab either. Additionally, FYI, a lot of the gedolim who were close with the Rebbe Rashab were close to the previous Rebbe too. That’s besides the fact that a lot of “soltoh ushamnoh” of the Torah world attended the Rebbe’s wedding.
BTW, do you not consider the Gerrer Rebbeim, the Klausenberger Rebbe, the Skverer Rebbe, the Baba Sali, the Bobover Rebbe, R’ Yosef Ber Soloveichik, R’ Aharon Soloveichik, R’ Yitzchok Hutner, R’ Eliyohu Dessler, R’ Moshe Feinstein – and the list goes on – gedolim? They all had very good relationships with the Rebbe, to say the least. Even the Satmar Rebbe (R’ Yoel) had a very good relationship with the Rebbe – even if they strongly disagreed on some points.
Sruly,
Though I have no clue if 6,000 people learning in BMG in Lakewood is an exaggeration or not, please don’t label all the yungerleit learning in Lakewood as lazy people who can’t get a job, though I’m sure such an element in there exists I’m sure many of Lakewoods yungerleit are truly devoted learning lishmah. I hope that wasn’t your intention, for if it was, you are a hater just like those anti lubavitch guys.
Being that I see that many here are just bickering back and forth, I’ve decided to try to help refocus for everyone here.
As is understood by all of us, no-one is perfect without flaw, nor any group within Klal Yisroel. This is clear to all. It is also clear to all that it is easier to see faults in others than it is to see in one’s self. That being, it takes great effort to apply introspection of one’s ways and of course even more to actually change them. Although we tend to put up our shields and become insulted and even defensive when someone challenges our actions and motive, we should in truth be really appreciative towards the criticizer; for without him we may very well be continuing in a bad path for the rest of our lives.
One NEEDS to ask himself, “What do I gain by ignoring criticism by justifying myself and/or labeling the criticizer as narrow-minded and hypocritical? In the end I’m the one that may be losing out, not him!”
Now that that’s been said let’s examine:
I am a Litvak! The Chassidim seem to see a flaw in us Latvaks. Do you know what it is?…. Most likely many of you said to yourself, “Yea…A KALTA LITVAK!!!” How many of you that are not Litvaks believe this to be true? How many of you Litvaks believe this to be an unfair and an over-exaggerated statement? My guess is that the answer to both questions is “Most”.
Now, as a Litvak I can choose to ignore such statements and dismiss them as being biased, but then I gain NOTHING! However, if I am Choshes that perhaps there is a microscopic amount of truth in this statement against me, then I will naturally become self conscious about not being warm enough to others and I will eventually strive to be warmer to others. It may be that most people would have told you that I’m the epitome of Chesed, but now by having taken another’s word into consideration I will certainly become that much more warmer and greater a person. I have only to gain.
You see, we only lose by discrediting another’s criticism! [Of course, it depends on who’s criticizing. However, we certainly should not discredit the views of Frum Jews that dedicate their lives to Torah and Mitzvos and especially when the criticism comes from Gedoleh Yisroel (BTW – discrediting recognized Gedolim as not being Gedolim is not only foolish, it borders Apikorsus)]
With that said, I appeal to my beloved brothers that follow the Derech of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZTL. Please understand that when we are telling you that your relationship towards the Rebbe is over the top PLEASE PLEASE do not rationalize it by telling yourself that we are just saying that because we are jealous, R”L! This is TOTALLY foolish! If the Rebbe was/is Moshiach why on Earth would I not want the Geula Shaleima to occur NOW! Do you foolishly believe I /we care WHO is Moshiach! What does it matter whether Moshiach is a Sefardi, Chassid, or Litvak?! Chazal say that when Moshiach arrives everyone will claim that he is one of them. That is because everyone in Klal Yisroel will see in Moshiach attributes that are uniquely theirs. This I read B’shem Rav Yaakov Kamenensky, ZTL.
If you are given this criticism (which incidentally I can tell you is not exclusively a Litvish claim) what do you gain by ignoring our words? Sof Sof it is you that stand to gain or lose. Of course, it will be VERY hard to except our tochacha. It requires great thought and hard effort to figure out how to relate to the Rebbe in an original approach that defers drastically from what you’ve been used to for years. It requires reevaluating what is a Tzaddik and what is and is not appropriate in how to relate to him. This can be a very difficult task indeed! [If it is of any encouragement to those of you that seek to live a life base on truth, I once was confronted with this very issue myself and it took quite a while for me to crystallize for myself what a Tzaddik really is (and Yes, I’ve read the 1st perek of Tanya). The truth is that after I was Matzliach to understand what a Tzaddik REALLY is my respect for them greatly increased, not diminished! So don’t worry, you will not lose your respect for the Rebbe by changing your view of him! On the contrary, your love for him will increase 10 folds. What’s more, you’ll be able to make peace with the rest of Klal Yisroel because you’ll have made peace with yourself. Imaging not having any hatred towards Litvaks at all! Can you imaging what good that does for your health?! (Don’t fool yourself saying that you have no hatred for them right now!)]
Now to my last statement: As we all can agree on, Haaretz is a trief paper and their word can’t be taken as fact. However, if it is true that what they bring down does go on in 770 to whatever degree THIS MUST BE STOPPED!!! and ONLY Lubavitchers can stop this! You can! There is NO EXCUSES! You CAN NOT say, “it is only a minority among us”! The Torah is REPLETE of examples where the miyut put the Rov in GREAT danger! It is as easy as opening up to the Chet HaEgel just to start with. As we all know the Chet HaEgal was done by a mere 3000 people from the Erev Rav (not even from Klal Yisroel). However, because Klal Yisroel stood by in silence the entire entity was doomed to extinction!
If this is truly happening YOU CAN’T STAND BY SILENTLY! YOU MUST STAND UP AND TAKE ACTION!
If you ask, “what can we do?”, the answer is easy. Money talks! Band together in great numbers and tell those in charge at 770 that if they don’t put a stop to this you will refuse to give even one penny, nor will you walk through the doors of 770 again until this horrible Averah is rectified.
May Hashem give those of you that seek Hashem STRENGTH, COURAGE, and HATZLACHA! May your families be blessed Ad Bli Di as a reward for defending the honor of Hashem’s holy name. And may Shalom once again reign in Klal Yisroel!
NOTE: I do not know if my comments posted or not. If it did I apologize for resubmitting.
Being that I see that many here are just bickering back and forth, I’ve decided to try to help refocus for everyone here.
As is understood by all of us, no-one is perfect without flaw, nor any group within Klal Yisroel. This is clear to all. It is also clear to all that it is easier to see faults in others than it is to see in one’s self. That being, it takes great effort to apply introspection of one’s ways and of course even more to actually change them. Although we tend to put up our shields and become insulted and even defensive when someone challenges our actions and motive, we should in truth be really appreciative towards the criticizer; for without him we may very well be continuing in a bad path for the rest of our lives.
One NEEDS to ask himself, “What do I gain by ignoring criticism by justifying myself and/or labeling the criticizer as narrow-minded and hypocritical? In the end I’m the one that may be losing out, not him!”
Now that that’s been said let’s examine:
I am a Litvak! The Chassidim seem to see a flaw in us Latvaks. Do you know what it is?…. Most likely many of you said to yourself, “Yea…A KALTA LITVAK!!!” How many of you that are not Litvaks believe this to be true? How many of you Litvaks believe this to be an unfair and an over-exaggerated statement? My guess is that the answer to both questions is “Most”.
Now, as a Litvak I can choose to ignore such statements and dismiss them as being biased, but then I gain NOTHING! However, if I am Choshes that perhaps there is a microscopic amount of truth in this statement against me, then I will naturally become self conscious about not being warm enough to others and I will eventually strive to be warmer to others. It may be that most people would have told you that I’m the epitome of Chesed, but now by having taken another’s word into consideration I will certainly become that much more warmer and greater a person. I have only to gain.
You see, we only lose by discrediting another’s criticism! [Of course, it depends on who’s criticizing. However, we certainly should not discredit the views of Frum Jews that dedicate their lives to Torah and Mitzvos and especially when the criticism comes from Gedoleh Yisroel (BTW – discrediting recognized Gedolim as not being Gedolim is not only foolish, it borders Apikorsus)]
With that said, I appeal to my beloved brothers that follow the Derech of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZTL. Please understand that when we are telling you that your relationship towards the Rebbe is over the top PLEASE PLEASE do not rationalize it by telling yourself that we are just saying that because we are jealous, R”L! This is TOTALLY foolish! If the Rebbe was/is Moshiach why on Earth would I not want the Geula Shaleima to occur NOW! Do you foolishly believe I /we care WHO is Moshiach! What does it matter whether Moshiach is a Sefardi, Chassid, or Litvak?! Chazal say that when Moshiach arrives everyone will claim that he is one of them. That is because everyone in Klal Yisroel will see in Moshiach attributes that are uniquely theirs. This I read B’shem Rav Yaakov Kamenensky, ZTL.
If you are given this criticism (which incidentally I can tell you is not exclusively a Litvish claim) what do you gain by ignoring our words? Sof Sof it is you that stand to gain or lose. Of course, it will be VERY hard to except our tochacha. It requires great thought and hard effort to figure out how to relate to the Rebbe in an original approach that defers drastically from what you’ve been used to for years. It requires reevaluating what is a Tzaddik and what is and is not appropriate in how to relate to him. This can be a very difficult task indeed! [If it is of any encouragement to those of you that seek to live a life base on truth, I once was confronted with this very issue myself and it took quite a while for me to crystallize for myself what a Tzaddik really is (and Yes, I’ve read the 1st perek of Tanya). The truth is that after I was Matzliach to understand what a Tzaddik REALLY is my respect for them greatly increased, not diminished! So don’t worry, you will not lose your respect for the Rebbe by changing your view of him! On the contrary, your love for him will increase 10 folds. What’s more, you’ll be able to make peace with the rest of Klal Yisroel because you’ll have made peace with yourself. Imaging not having any hatred towards Litvaks at all! Can you imaging what good that does for your health?! (Don’t fool yourself saying that you have no hatred for them right now!)]
Now to my last statement: As we all can agree on, Haaretz is a trief paper and their word can’t be taken as fact. However, if it is true that what they bring down does go on in 770 to whatever degree THIS MUST BE STOPPED!!! and ONLY Lubavitchers can stop this! You can! There is NO EXCUSES! You CAN NOT say, “it is only a minority among us”! The Torah is REPLETE of examples where the miyut put the Rov in GREAT danger! It is as easy as opening up to the Chet HaEgel just to start with. As we all know the Chet HaEgal was done by a mere 3000 people from the Erev Rav (not even from Klal Yisroel). However, because Klal Yisroel stood by in silence the entire entity was doomed to extinction!
If this is truly happening YOU CAN’T STAND BY SILENTLY! YOU MUST STAND UP AND TAKE ACTION!
If you ask, “what can we do?”, the answer is easy. Money talks! Band together in great numbers and tell those in charge at 770 that if they don’t put a stop to this you will refuse to give even one penny, nor will you walk through the doors of 770 again until this horrible Averah is rectified.
May Hashem give those of you that seek Hashem STRENGTH, COURAGE, and HATZLACHA! May your families be blessed Ad Bli Di as a reward for defending the honor of Hashem’s holy name. And may Shalom once again reign in Klal Yisroel!
Shturem, of course most of them learn for real, I said there are “some” Please read carefully. However, that will not score you points with these misnagdish commenters. And I am not a hater of anyone. an apology for your accusations will be more appropriate.
Yochi: Can you take me along to next years Kinnus?
Shturem,
Anyone who is involved with $upporting the shluchim, as I am can get inviting by one of those choshuver Rabbanim.
I have written in the past I am from a Boro Park/Lakewood background, but I travel a lot for business and I have tremendous respect for real mesirus nefesh!!!
Whats mesiras nefesh, to move out to Boise Idaho with 6 children and jeapordize the chinuch of your own children to bring other people closer to yidishkeit. It is krum , period.
I love these cronies like yochi who “respects” their decision to move out there.If you think its such a holy thing what they are doing, would you send your child out there?
Lchvod Rav Mechel,
With all due respect (and I am speaking as a Litvak, not a Lubov) are you aware that when Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, ZTL decided to come to America many of his relatives had the same attitude that you’re having? Their exact Ti’na was that he was killing his kids by moving to that spiritual desert, America. Ironic, the turnout. You can verify this story from his son Reb Shmuel Kamenetsky, Shlita.
Are you aware that many Bnei Torah from our circles have been sent to the boonies too. Granted we differ from the Lubavitchers in that our Gedolim only send unique individuals as opposed to making it a rule of thumb and extolling it as if that is the greatest thing a Jew can do.
Yes, I agree that for most it is a dangerous endeavor, but to make a flat statement as if it is NEVER acceptable is not correct to do.
In truth, I wish this was the greatest concern we’d have towards our beloved brothers, but unfortunately it is not.
Also, remember that when we want to give our fellow Jews Tochucha Chazal say, “Divrei Chachomim B’Nachas Nishma”.
May we all see happier times.
Soft,the example of Rav Yakov is different.They were concerned as he was entering a midbar. His goal was to create torah and yiddishkeit in these desolate cities.With the help of other gedolim they were successful and today these cities are thriving with yiddishkeit and torah. But lets take a look at what chabad does. They send these shiluchim out to Utah,Boise etc.There is no way that young inexperienced men can turn the place around and make the place a mokom torah.So what they accomplish is grabbing a few yidden and getting them to say shema and shake lulav.At the expense of their childrens chinuch.And secondly, whats going on today is no comparison to 50 years ago.To let young innocent neshomas who could experience a true torah life in a yiddishe atmosphere be thrown into a midbar for the sake of “mesiras nefesh” is krum as it gets.
mechel,
You have no clue what you are talking about. The shluchims kids turn out just fine. In fact even finer than the Crown Heights kids.
Rav Mechel,
You say about Rav Yaakov Zt’L “His goal was to create torah and yiddishkeit in these desolate cities”
What do you think the Lubabs concern is?
And you write that they are not acomplishing that, you have obviously not visited many Chabad houses, since hundreds of them do have many bney torah who are bal teshuva.
In any case, who is to say that 1 b’t is not enough of a reason?? who tells you what 1 neshomo is worth?? (I sound like a shliach -:)
and last, you say that they are jeapordizing the chinuch of their own children, fact is that you were not in too many chabad houses, their kids are just as frum as ours, even when living in the boondocks, and if anything even more.
I have been to over 100 chabad houses in the last few years, I am also from Boro Park, trust me, I do not lie when I say that their children are lisheim ulitiferes.
I am so sorry Rav Mechel, but you really don’t know what you are talking about in connection to the chinuch of shluchim’s children. You are making these statements based on assumption and not facts. Because a shliach knows that he is going to a place where there is no instituted chinuch, he puts extra interest in his child’s chinuch as opposed to other people who just rely on the school to be mechanech their child. Shluchim’s children are exceptional in middos, and in studies, many times when the child will go to yeshiva or the girls to high school out of town, they are at a higher level than other students. So please before making statements, clarify the details.
Mechel,
Especially the online school (Lubavitch is the only online school/Cheder now created for shluchims kids), they now get a wonderful chinuch from their computer live with classmates across the globe and a teacher who teaches via web cam. At least the shluchim’s kids use the internet to learn Torah, and not to spew hate like you do.
Mechel,
I myself have been to a shliach’s house. I was completely amazed at what I saw. Their children are amazing. They feel so honored to be the children of shluchim. They are frum and Aidel and extremely refined. Unlike the chutzpadike kids from Brooklyn. I have seen this in one shliachs house in Texas about 5 couples that became frum. Which means their children will be frum and grandchildren and so on. Think about it, every chabad house has at least 2 couples that became frum. If you add that up with 2,000+ shluchim, that is an abundance amt of people and for generations to come. And you know where it started? thats right from a Luluv shake or from a Menorah being displayed in a mall. Now that you know what you know, stop denying it.
Perhaps some of the Lubavitcher sympathizers can help me. If all of your programs are so successful, where are all the baal teshuvas?? I know in the town that my parents lived, when chabad made a dinner, they pestered 500 people to come (doctors, lawyers etc..) – my parents among them. My parents couldn’t care less about them but they wanted to get them off their back like the other 498 people. Does that mean that Lubavitch claims that in this city there are 500 Lubavitchers. By the Levaya (or what looked like a levaya – since the rebbe didn’t die), there was less then 50,000 people if I remember correctly. Where were the hundreds of thousands of people that they claim they have (this takes into account the two guys in peru and two in siberia that couldn’t make it)? In Israel the statistics are even more obvious. LUBAVITCH CAN’T EVEN GET ONE SEAT IN KNESSET !!!! They have to attach themselves to other mizrachi parties. Note how they would never join agudah etc…who supports torah but only zionist parties that support Israel (remember their affiliation with shinui!!)….Please correct me if I’m wrong………..if you can. And please reserve all the name calling for the next fabregan in 770 (isn’t there one tonight celebrating when Moshiach tzidkeinu got his engineering degree or was tonight when he graduated Sorbonne – it’s hard to keep track)?
According to my understanding the issue between the Gedolim was whether the Rebbe was sending his sheluchim out too early (too young and not developed enough in their Chachmos Hatorah). Although the sheluchim that I personally know are some of the sweetest and g’shmaka’est guys I know, non-the-less, I must admit that their level of Chochmas HaTorah is lower than most of those Rabbonim that have chosen a traditional approach to Rabbanus. It’s possible that Lubavitch reaches out to more people, however, judging from my personal experience with Lubavitch and other Kiruv organizations, it appears to me that others are more successful at bringing them higher up the ladder. However, 1) this is opinionated, not proven fact. 2) Even if I’m right there is still to ask what is better Orech or Erech (quality or quantity)? This is not a simple question to answer.
As far as Kiruv in general we must understand that assimilation is ramped and there is a Machlokes on how to react. The Rebbe (as far as I understand) believe that in a situation of Sukanas Nefashos like this EVERYBODY has to say “Im ain Ish hishtadel L’hiyos Ish”. EVERYBODY needs to get involved! Others hold that you are not allowed to place yourself in Sukana to save another soul. Only if you can insure your own spiritual health can you try and save others. That is why Lakewood sends its “Shluchim” out in groups of ten, thus fortifying themselves. I personally lean towards the latter opinion. However, it is wrong to reject the other side.
I personal believe that the problems that developed in Lubavitch did not stem from their shlichus, but rather from their success. Wherever a Jew is having success his tendency is to let down his guard against the Sitra Achir. That is what I feel happened. B’Ezras Hashem they will someday soon reevaluate their situation and adjust back towards the center.
Stam,
Actually the Rebbe was against Lubavitch forming a party, for he didn’t want to politicize his movement thereby alienating many of the Jews they were to be mekarev to yiddishkeit.
It is funny by the way, how the moderators censor out some of my posts, but your most vile ‘humor’ you share about the Rebbe is accepted. Do I hear double standard?
“Our job is to do mitvos”…that is definitely true yet sooo not the big picture! We are all in this world to make a “Dirah Bitachtonim”=to make a dwelling place for HaShem. certainly our mitvos are valued and cherished, but hurting another jew in the process? Stam asoi…you seriously gotta learn the one mitzva that sums up the whole Torah:V’Uhavta Leraicha Kamocha!!! Wow, i feel bad for someone who has soo much hate bottled up inside…come out of your own little shell, brake your own barriers and see what you can do for the jewish world, not what the jewish world can do for you!
dear proud to be a luby,
I refer you back to my original comment #2. I assume pinchos also had some hatred pent up inside?? Or perhaps you are a bigger lover of Yidden than Pinchos? Was he not awarded the bris shalom? Did you once consider that perhaps his action was an act of peace and love. We do not live in a fairytale world. There is a very dangerous group out there that are only getting nuttier and crazed. We have to fight them tooth and nail…..and that is all I ask of the Jewish world. Just curious, are you LBB (lube by birth) or a convert?
Stam,
I see now all your issues now. You think kanous is for everyone. Everyone can be a Pinchos. WRONG! You have to be a pinchos to have disgretion on what’s L’sheim shomayim. You’re just hateful and blame it on pinchos. I can Be hateful to you as well and say that it is a divine act of kanous like pinchos. Please keep Pinchos out of your hate.
Shtruem,
Where we come from, we view chabad as much of a danger as reform and conservative. I have friends who are frei and I have relationships with people that are lubavitch. I don’t hate anyone on a personal level. But, like the conservative and reform, I will fight your group tooth and nail to defame your movement to the best of my ability (and I think I’ve done pretty well on this blog) to expose who you are and what you stand for……..kefira in the most literal of terms.
Stam a deya, the only thing you have accomplished on this blog is making it obvious that you are plain jealous of chabad. This jealousy has caused such hatred in you. Maybe therapy would be a good idea. You have to get over your past history with lubavitch. There is much more to this story than you are saying. Besides you say you have lubavitch friends, with friends like you who needs enemies?? The Lubavitcher Rebbe showed a love and care for every single jew in every corner of the world………even you stam a deya.
Why do you think he sent shluchim to every corner of the world? TO MEKAREV AS MANY YIDDEN AS POSSIBLE, TO PREPARE THE WORLD FOR MOSHIACH. (whom ever it is) It is okay being just an ordinary jew who learns and serves Hashem. Not everyone can be extra ordinary as chabad. Its very simple, goyim for generations hate Yidden. Because the yidden are emes. Its jealousy. we are the chosen people. The same goes for Lubavitch, they are hated by people like you because they are Emes. THE TRUTH HURTS. Nothing you say will dicourage not one lubavitcher, in fact its people like you that encourage them even more and give them even more strength to do the right thing. This is the golus and there will be people who will try and stop lubavitch from doing what is right. Stop making it so obvious of your jealousy. YOu can go on and respond but the fact remains its plain and simple JEOLOUSY!!!
I have no question to the Rebbe’s intention. The only problem is THAT HE BELIEVED IT !!! He honestly believed he was Moshiach. I will tell you a story which I’m sure you won’t believe. I wrote the Rebbe a letter quoting a Rambam in Avos (chapter 1) to the effect that chachamim beware of your words that there shouldn’t be words that your students can misconstrue into minus and will think this was your intention like what happened to Antignus whose students didn’t understand him. I asked the Rebbe “If you believe you are moshiach, come out and say it. If not, come out and say so explicitly. A person does not live forever.” I sealed this letter in an envelope and addressed to 770 Eastern Parkway etc…before I mailed it the next day, THE REBBE COLLAPSED !!!! I did not mail it and unfortunatly I will never get a response. The only response I would have gotten anyway are from the goons of 770 with broken windows and flat tires which is the reason why no one comes out against you except Rav Shach who was fearless. I believe the Rebbe really thought of himself as Moshiach. It’s amazing what gayvah can do to a person….As for you chasidim shotim, you are ALL beyond hope and I did not think I would be mekarev you. You have all become a form of christianity – believe in the Rebbe and you go to heaven regardless of everything else. (That’s why perhaps you should change your name to sruly1 – what’s sruly613?)The reason for my participation in this blog was for all the others that have no opinion, who do not know anything about chabad. My message is, check their websites and call their hotline to see what a bunch of crackpots these people are. The more you know them, the more you hate them. Not personally as I said before, but as a group. I have no jealousy for you my friend, only pity. Hashem Yerachem.
Many among us in yiddishkeit are known by an acronym of our names. For instance Netziv, Chiddushei HaRim, Gri”z etc…. With that sad I hereby proclaim Stam A Deya as the chiddushei SAD, as his comments make many of extremely SAD.
Why, because he goes against derech Yisroel Saba by making his own proclamations, without the guidance of gedolei Yisroel. From a past comment we learned that Rav Forscheimer, Shlit”a was m’ayyin b’davar and consulted w/ Maran Rav Elyashiv in an effort to clarify the matter. Assuming that is true, there can be no question that Rubashkin meat is 100% Kasher v’Yasher.
Those who choose to ignore halacha and pasken treif on what gedolim say is kasher, do so at their own peril. You want to be machmir (I don’t think chumra exactly applies here) that’s fine but by doing so you are being motzei laz on the owners of the company, the individuals who are employed there, those that eat the meat AND worst of all Maranan v’Rabbonon who say it’s Kasher. SAD I would submit that instead of fighting wars in the blogesphere fight in the bais HaMesrash and in that z’chus we should have Sholom al Yisroel!
Dear SDR,
Kudos to your acronym! If I’m sad, I guess you must be SADDER as apparent from your name – SDR !!
I truely believe that Reb Elyashiv does not know the sad facts about chabad. Even Rav Ovadia was shocked when he first heard the tapes of the rebbe and declared his chassidim as ovdei ovodah zara. Rav Shach use to show people from the sichos how he was a kofer in the 13 ikrim. I don’t believe that if the Rebbe stood infront of Reb Elyashiv and declared that his father-in-law is atzmious of hashem put into a body and therefore you can daven to him, that he would eat from his shechita. The best you can claim is that the chassidim are not as nuts as their Rebbe. But you would need a very high dosage of dan lekaf zchus to think that.
to: Stam a deya
Could you provide me with a prove about R. Shach proving in Sichos about 13 etc.? or other not nice stuff about the Lubav. Rebbe?
Which volumes, pages?
You were there or you heard it from someone?
You might be speaking Loshon Hora about a godol!
“I truely believe that Reb Elyashiv does not know the sad facts about chabad.” YOU might believe that Rav Elyashiv doesn’t know anything about anything. When you’re the posek Ha-Dor I’ll worry about what YOU have to say. Until then, I’ll stick with the Gedolei Yisroel and DAAS TORAH!
I refer to you a famous kuntros called “kuntres haemes” that has a nice collection of all the kefira found in the Rebbe’s sichos with the proper sources. I would provide a website that has it – but I think it’s against yeshivaworld policy. Ask around and you will find it.
As per your comment about the Rebbe being a godol, I beg to differ. Although I am not an authority to say who is a gadol and who is not, I will say this: The baal hatanya was from the gedolei hador and he was accepted by all although gedolim disagreed with him. The Rebbe was an engineer with a college degree who became a Rebbe and with his charisma and incredible personality accomplished much. It’s a shame he went too far. As Rav Moshe told my friend he was “tsu feel arain gemished mit zaine chassidishe zachin”…The Gedolei Hador of the previous generation did not consider him such and on the contrary, they held him to be a kofer. Was I there? NO. But, I wasn’t physically at Har Sinai either….
Dear Sadder aka SDR,
You are right, you should stick with Rav Elyashiv. I was just told that Rabbi Shain sent Rabbi Avrohom Rubin to Rav Eliyashev about 7=8 years ago to ask if one can use a Lubavitch shochet?
Rabbi Rubin came back to him and said ThaT RAV ELIYASHEV SAID THE FOLLOWING:
There are 3 types-
The non-beleivers-no problem.
The “Mishugoim”-falls under those halachos -“Oimed….
The believers- their shechita and wine – “OSUR”.
You can contact Rabbi Rubin or Rabbi Shain for details.
Don’t forget to klap al cheit for the rubashkin meat you ate today. And if your wine has a lubavitcher mashgiach (including kedem – unless from NY state) you can teshuva for that as well.
SAD you state”
“I truely believe that Reb Elyashiv does not know the sad facts about chabad.”
First, there’s no “e” in truly.
Second when Rav Forscheimer claims Rav Elyashiv you state that he doesn’t know the inyan, BUT when Rabbi Avraham Rubin (who is he anyways) is sent by Rabbi Shain, probably a Shaine Yid, but not a posek that I’ve heard of kind of states your position then and only then is Rav Elyashiv’s position authoritative.
If I were you I’d klap al cheit for motzei shem ra, loshon harah, richilus and bizui chachamim, much more severe aveiros than Kedem and Rubashkin times 100!
Dear Sadder,
I CONTACTED RABBI SHAIN. DID YOU CONTACT RABBI FORCHEIMER TO VERIFY????
SORRY, BUT TRY AGAIN!!!!
#56 i attened the lakewood dinner from time to time and thats only after those same nagging phonecalls but so what at the end they went
#64 what a mofes on your part by the way the rebbe was answering letters after his stroke anyway so you can change your story
#69 you say that about the baal hatanya 200 years later but thats not what you said about him during the gras times you put him in charim were malshin sheker about him to the government causing his arrest and were rodef him his chassidim and all chassidim of that time you even called him the same kofer as the present day chabad
was reb moshe 2 faced why did he write such a title to the rebbe in his igros if he held he was a kofer
what really happened in camp gan yisroel that you have this hate of jews did you lose colorwar
#32 get your facts straight first see what reb ahron kotler said about the previous rebbe in the 1940s the rebbe said his first sicha in 1951
see the instructions reb chaim shmulevitz had about vaad hatzolah money and chabad in shanghai that also was way before 1951
see what what ahron said about the previos rebbe after the previos rebbe suffered from multiple scrousos its all documented
so you can say what you want now but the facts are there
now years and