The Orthodox Union, which has taken the lead in combating teenage drinking in the Orthodox community – with special efforts being made at Purim – and has done likewise with adults, criticizing the concept of the “Kiddush Club,” has now turned its attention to Simchas Torah.
In a letter to rabbis and presidents of OU synagogues across North America, with the intention that the letter be shared with parents and teachers, OU Executive Vice President Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb and Rabbi Bini Maryles, Director of the Pepa and Rabbi Joseph Karasick Department of Synagogue Services, declare:
“As we stand on the cusp of Simchat Torah, we wish to draw your attention to a serious problem in our communities: underage drinking.
The Orthodox Union has addressed this issue over the past several years, particularly as it pertains to Purim. The problem may not be as widespread on Simchat Torah, but neither is it as well-recognized.
The reality is that no one should overindulge in alcohol on Simchat Torah, as it is not conducive to the spirit of the day. Even adults should be careful that their celebrations do not go counter to the appropriate decorum of our synagogues. But when it comes to our youth, we must be extra zealous, for additional matters of safety and law.
Parents should know where their children — including teens — are, with whom, and what they’re doing. Synagogues should not make alcohol available to minors. Authority figures should not turn a blind eye if they see underage members of their community drinking.
Working together, we can ensure that all of our congregants and family members enjoy a happy and safe Simchat Torah.”
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37 Responses
I love the poster YW Editor. And, B”H for the OU for taking a stand on this issue and going all out and fighting it. I nebech know one young man who is now in a wheelchair and on a ventilator from just one Purim!
The OU is 100% wrong there are 2 days a year that are meant for Bochurim to enjoy themselves and drink to bring them to a high.
Moshe2,
If you have sons, I hope there is someone else responsible in the house to watch over their interests.
While I cannot agree 100% with Moshe2, we must let our bochurim have kosher fun (see the Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum article a couple of weeks back). Has there ever been more than an isolated problem here and there stem from drinking on Simchas Torah that we are considering this a problem that the OU has to come out against? I really cannot remember many issues at all coming from Simchas Torah drinking. This is not Purim and no one is driving and most of the activity is indoors and not on the streets! Are the OU just being politically correct in putting this out or do they really mean it?
#6, bowling is kosher fun. Baseball and basketball are kosher fun. A kumsitz is kosher fun. If your kids can handle it, let them have an ounce or two everyday this yom tov (along with a fleishig meal) for simchas yom tov. Let them get a Simchas Torah high from something other than those one or two ounces; that something shouldn’t come in a bottle.
i always wondered what the mekor was for drinking on simchas torah. i never saw one . has anyone ?
tzippi – there is a concept of infusing kosher fun into mitzvos so our children have a desire and cheshek to do mitzvos. Let Yom Tov be a time that the young look forward to and not put that frown and damper on all mitzvos…
It saddens me that we are at a point that allows 13 year olds to drink so that they can have their semi-annual “high”. Moshe2, what will our Bochurim need at 14 years old and than at 16 and 18 years old to get the “high” they need?
Addiction always starts somewhere.
Mekor for drinking on Simchas Torah?
Uh…how about taking out a Shulchan Aruch before blabbering nonsense.
The Levush Paskens – and this is the Halacha in the entire world – that the Kohanim only Duchin (Birchas Kohanim) by Shacharis.
His reson?
“Mipnei shechichi shichrus” – because it is common to be drunk on Simchas Torah, and a Kohen can’t duchin if he is drunk.
For the record, this is a minhag which has been going on for ever.
In Baranovitch, by Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D – everyone was drunk, in the Mir it was the same. In Kaminetz by Rav Boruch Ber Lebowitz Zatzal also.
Basicly in all Yeshivos throughout Eurpoe this was the Minhag.
Many major, leading Roshei Yeshivos have gotton drunk on Simchas Torah – most notebly rav shmuel berenbaum from the mirrer yeshiva – whom I personally witnessed drunk close to 30 years ago.
If I were you, I would worry about the kiddush clubs in the shuls – and stop worrying about the erlicher yidden who rejoice on simchas torah with a few shots.
By the chassidim the same minhag is kept accross the board.
That my friend, is the mekor.
and can someone please tell me the last time there was a problem with someone drinking on Simchas Torah!?!?!
18 and above should receive Sameach from Above. Wine is not whisky. In France, we had wine as children introduced to us. The last thing I want on this Chag is someone looking into my glass, or sniffing my breath. To each his own, and may all no tolerance.
I do not believe that we can compare what Reb S. Berenbaum did 30 yrs ago to today. Today we have so many occasions where many (underage) people are drinking often to excess. We have to be more aware of addiction and stop these practices that can lead to addiction. I am not for banning drinking but if at every occasion there is drinking in excess there is a problem and we as a tzibur have to address it.
BMG Coffee Room, last time I checked a few shots and being outright drunk are usually two different things.
Offering or providing alcohol to minors (without guardian or parental supervision) is simply criminal– or do you think this is one of the cases where dina d’malchuta dina is irrelevant?
So, here’s an eyeopener for you–
Edited: No links allowed.
Encouraging and forging partnerships between parents, community rabbonim and yeshivos to create safe, fun and alcohol-free environments for simchas torah is paramount.
I think instead of blaming the kids, more blame needs to be on the adults.
(American law aside for a moment)…I see absolutely nothing wrong with an older teen having a shot or two to loosen up and let the inhibitions go away on Simchas Torah, as long as an adult has the final say as to how much is enough.
Instead of us all always saying no, no, no, to kids these days, let’s say, “yes, in moderation, it is fine.”
If we adults can’t be responsible enough to control our teens, then it’s our fault, not theirs!!
Those adults who can only say “no, no, no” are simply weak adults – and they are very possibly failing their kids.
Remember, Koach D’Heteirah Adif. It’s much easier to always say no.
And as #14 says above, there is certainly a basis for allowing drinking on Simchas Torah.
Tova: A few things.
Yes. I am talking about getting drunk. Not having a few shots. Drunk. Spelled D-R-U-N-K.
I am not going to even touch the topic of dina dimalchusa dina – since you have zero knowledge about this sugya – and you should better not try to. In a nutshell: it is very questionable as to where that applies. Ask a Posek.
Further, a woman asked Rav Shach zatzal something and he answered her. She responded by saying “the ramban in chumash says not like that” – to which he repied instantly “GO BAKE COOKIES”.
Get it?
Probably not…..
And finally, and person who allows minors to drink should have his teeth knocked out.
In closing, perhaps in you shul the men should not drink because they might not act appropietly, but here in Lakewood – we sit and fight in the deepest sugyos of shas while intoxicated on simchas torah – from the Rosh Yeshiva (Rav Malkiel Kotler) down.
I don’t think it’s the OU’s business to police Simchas Torah drinking. Let them stick to kashrus & leave this alte minhag alone.
While noone is encouraging underage drinking, we all know that drinking a few shots on Simchas Torah by adults is not as bad as they are making it sound.
Relax!
In lieu of the link- David Mandel wrote an article entitled “I Can Stop Anytime I Want to” on the OhelFamily website.
If ve-samachta be-hagecha should mean way more than shots or drinking until the point of drunkenness.
After tragedies, r”l, people often post (even on Yeshiva World) that it’s a ‘wake up call’ etc. When people get sent to the hospital because of alcohol poisoning on yom tov, that too should be viewed as a time for change and community action.
#23, I hold by that story of Rav Shach zatzal tremendously. I’m not sure how relevant it is to this case. Here, as a mother, I want to be madrich my kids. While this may be men’s territory, and I trust my husband fully, I think my input is still important.
#17, what you say may be key to this discussion.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH DRINKING????????? THE GUYS ARE ABOUT 20-25 YEARS OLD THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO?????
Interesting how the lady folk can all think of other kosher outlets for their sons and friends, while the men are all-out and high for spiritual gain through mitzvohs a la liquor.
Kudos to the OU, and let us keep the simchas at liquor minimum…
Why can’t we just teach children how to get high on life not on alcohol?!
Just the dancing and singing with friends and family should infuse simcha into a person. Why do we need to teach our boys to rely on outside help?
I’m not sure why you’re not, but assuming that there is no halachick dina d’malchusa problem, we still have the significant problem of teaching a group of children that breaking rules is fine. What kind of environment are you trying to create for these poor children?
And BMG, do you by any chance speak English?
Hey KISHKA, good point. Just one thing:
MANY ARE NOT THAT OLD. AND EVEN THE ONES THAT ARE APPARENTLY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING.
#16, #19, #20, #28 and #33, I don’t know about NY or other states, but in New Jersey minors are allowed to drink for religious purposes.
BMGCoffeeRoom: Bach/Becha
#27-BMG is right-it happened to my mother
bklynmom: You’re wrong-it’s not men vs. women; it’s “lakewood ir hatorah” vs. “out of town”
I’m not sure which side to take on this matter, as I’ve experienced both types of Simchas Torahs and enjoyed them both. What I’m wondering about is why is NO ONE focusing on the true simchah of simchas torah which is rejoicing with the Torah! Maybe the OU and local Rabbonim should be encouraged to teach and show by example what it meanss to truely be happy because we’re Yidden and have the Torah!!
Concerned jew,
The Torah says “veyayin yesamach levav enosh” which means that Hashem gave us an aide to help enhance our simcha.
Isn’t the halacha to drink wine on Yom Tov to help cause simcha?
This doesn’t mean drinking into oblivion obviously, but by the same token wine was created to get the ball rolling so to speak.
LCHAIM TO ALL & GUT YOM TOV!
Moshe2 and Gevaldige maase, your posts only sadly highlight the need for more initiatives like the OU’s. Only someone who wouldn’t dream of giving up their l’chaim would make such irrational statements. And, please drive carefully. Never drink and drive!
one year i was in BMG for Simchas Torah and i was so disgusted by the drunken behaviour i said “Never Again”.
so everyone uses the excuse (or this is what i heard then…) “But Reb Aaron drank!” i have no doubt that Reb Aaron drank within reason and didnt behave like some drunken slob. i am sure his few cups of wine were within the norms and it allowed him to express his simcha and Ahavas Hatorah more freely.
what goes on today is a shame and disgrace. dont let anyone say that this is Kovod Hatorah. i will admit that there a few individuals who the wine brings out their best and their beauty and for them it is Kovod Hatorah but for the average …… (fill in who you are, bochur, avreich, baal habos) it is just an excuse to drink and no relationship to Kovod Hatorah.
so if someone wants an idea how to uplift himself, think of the Torah you learnt this year, the Chidushey torah you thought of, the hours spent in the Beis Hamedrash, this should fill you with Simcha. Pikudei Hashem Yesharim Mesamchei Lev.
and let us leave this disgusting habit behind.
and to all those good at quoting mekoros why they should drink, i have no doubt that what is happening today in the Beis Hamedrash is not what happened in the time of Chazal, so please stop quoting.
interestingly enough, living in Israel i do not see this same kind of behaviour, and lets not forget that Israle can boast a few Gedolei Torah and tzadikim who know ‘Mekoros’ so that is something else to think about.
Edited By Site Moderation Panel.
#36 you can do a great service by verifying the story while this is still open. The way I heard it, some girls went to Rav Shach zt’l with a lomdishe question on a Ramban (or Rambam, or something) and Rav Shach’s answer was, better you should be baking. So I don’t think he would have had any problems with a group of mothers coming to ask a very l’maisehdik question such as what rules should be set for our teenage (not only legally underage but without fully developed seichel) boys drinking on yom tov.
Sorry, I forgot this last post: to all the drinkers here, please set an example so that years from now, the kids and young adults will fondly remember you as a model of how to drink on yom tov. Gut moed and gut yom tov.
BMG Coffee Room-
Good handle. Being from Lakewood, I’m thankful you are honest enough not to parade as “BMG Bais Medrash”.
I’m also grateful that your brashness is not representative of the aidel majority.
Perhaps it’s time to leave the coffee room and seek guidance on how to relate to others.
And finally, if you have difficulty using derech eretz when dialoguing with woman, perhaps you should refrain from making the attempt.
May the wonderful atmosphere of BMG help you on your journey of growth.
Ok after you saw all the tumult over this issue so what’s the Maskana? Nu?
note — when the OU tryed this out a few years ago, the rov who was spearheading the campaign (actually, it was against kiddush clubs, not against drinking on simhat torah, two separate concepts, though “related”) ran into BIG trouble in his shul, on other matters, and had to come back from israel on an emergency basis. and it had nothing to do with his contract.
i have nothing against this practice, provided it is done responsibly. and those that arent responsible — everyone knows who they are in each shul, should be controlled.
and supervision over children. though one or two drinks (age appropriate) is ok, provided …
by the way, the mishna brurah specifically says FIREWORKS in simhat torah , and gives specific instructions on how to make firecrackers (which were not used in those days) to avoid an “aish” and safety problem on yom tov.
When I asked for a Mekor I meant a source that bring that there is an “inyan” Mitzvah or minhag, to drink.
The shulchan aruch you brought is just a raya that people drink. I again ask is there a mekor for it like we find by Purim
z,
the shulchan aruch wouldnt bring anything down that people just did and wasnt right.
I have known a few otherwise punctilious to the point of Hiddur Mitzvah Chabad Rabbis to take the minhag of drinking on Simchas Torah so seriously that they went so far over the line as to develop a drinking problem. It’s a short step from Simchas Torah to Chagim to Shabbos drinking to excess.
It’s not pretty to see respected Rabbaim (especially younger ones) drinking to the point of unconsciousness. It also sets a really horrible example for bochurim.
B”H, the Rabbaim in question were able to recognize and address the issue permanently when it became obviously out of control.
Perhaps the most vociferous defenders of drinking to the point of drunkenness and beyond on Simchas Torah may wish to consider the above in a personal context.
Everything in moderation, even drinking to the point of rejoicing.