Following the past few days of violent Hafganos around Chareidi neighborhoods in Eretz Yisroel, a statement was released by Hagaon HaRav Chaim Kanievsky and Hagaon HaRav Gershon Edelstein, the Rosh Yeshiva of Ponavezh.
The following is a loose translation of the statement which is posted at the bottom:
Ruling of our Rabbis, Roshei Kol Bnei HaGolah, Maran the Prince of Torah [Rav Chaim Kanievsky] Shlita and our Master, the Rosh HaYeshiva [Rav Gershon Edelstein] Shlita:
Even though it is understood that no one from the congregation of those who are Charedim Lidvar Hashem would participate in violent Hafganos (protests) where it is well know that this is not the manner of Torah,
And certainly, no one would ever dream of befriending the provocatuers from outside of our camp who ignite the flames of violence.
In addition, it must be pointed out that no one should approach or come close to these places [of violence] because it involves a violation of, “Harchaik min hachi’ur – Distance yourself from ugly matters” [See Meseches Derech Eretz 1:12]
It is also proper to temper our sense of curiosity in this matter, for the very act of seeing such [violent] behavior damages the soul
And there should be mercy from Heaven that those who err gain wisdom and walk in the path of Torah.
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20 Responses
Why would chareidim listen. If 17 years ago reb chaim called for everyone to come out to protest the first gay parade in Yerushalayim and most did not come so why would the listen now.
They should not condemn the hafganot and stop, rather they should condemn those who call themselves rabbis and preach violence and glorify it.
It used to be some one who learned Torah was some one who brings peace into the world, like we supposedly say in davening, Rabbi Elazar says talmidai chachomim increase shalem in the world. The fact that some @$$ can learn better than me and is called ‘rabbi’ and teaches stupid kids to break law means he is not a talmid chochem, rather a rasha!
OMG – I hadn’t read the English article. I just read it… nice one, YWN translator! I just realized that you pretended that the “kol korei” was saying that specifically VIOLENT hafganos are against the way of the torah… lolllolllolllll what a nice way to make the “kol korei” sound more authentic… as I explain above, however, due to the fact that the true translation reads, “…it is well known that [even general, non-violent] hafganos are not the way of the torah,” we can reach the clear verdict that the “kol korei” is the (quite embarrassingly sloppy) work of Yanky and his ilk. Nice try, though! Good one!
To clarify: My points above pertain to the authenticity of the “kol korei.” I certainly, in my puny mind, assume that the gedolim would have condemned the violence had they been asked… lechoireh that’s pashut…
Addendum: In case any non-fluent Hebrew speaker thinks that “hafgana” itself connotes violence, I am explaining that that is incorrect; “hafgana,” in spoken Hebrew (not necessarily in American yeshivish Hebrew), means “protest” — that’s all!
We should give a special thanks to these kids who can’t sit and learn all day but will fight for Torah using their street smart. Tovai alayham Brocha. Not everyone can study 18 hours a day. We need fighters too who can keep the pork eating government away from closing yeshivas.
@Rats Rats DemocRATs
You ask: “Why would chareidim listen?” Depends on what you mean by “chareidim”. If you mean “chareidim l’dvar Hashem” they would listen because the G-d instructs us via the Torah to listen to the leaders of your generation. If you mean by “chareidim” a political or social group — then you are right, those who are more interested in politics and think they know better may not listen.
Personally speaking, I would recommend joining the first group and LISTEN to the will of Hashem as spoken through these two holy souls.
No clue why the mods didn’t put up my first comment… maybe they made a mistake. Anyways, if anyone was confused, that’s why my comment above references an earlier comment. I think my point is clear, though — non-violent hafganos are demonstrably NOT in the category of “Not the way of the torah,” (see the countless signed kol koreis of years past from Rav Shach, Rav Elyashiv, etc. My first comment had also added that it was strange that there are no signatures on the “kol korei.”
YWN – Your ‘loose’ translation of the Hebrew text dramatically waters down its message. Harav Kanievsky and harav Edelstein have very clearly come out against participation in ANY hafganot, not just in ‘violent’ hafganot as you ‘loosely’ translate. Per harav Kanievsky and harav Edelstein, participation in ANY hafgana is not ‘darkah shel torah’.
Baruch hashem. Shehecheyanu. Ashrei ayin raatah zot.
Not sure where people come up with this stuff about no protests.
If you go back about 50-80 years ago or so, The Brisker Rav, the Satmar Rav, and many other gedolim made it their business to, themselves, attend at least some protests and also to organize a protest on specific, and usually flagrant, Zionist rebellions against Hashem, His Torah and His people, the Jews.
You don’t even need to go that far back, as gedolim nowadays, too, have also organized protests.
In the United States, during WW II (including Zionist treachery, then), gedolim famously “marched on Washington” hoping to beg the President to save our brethren who were being murdered in Nazi-occupied Europe.
“ It is also proper to temper our sense of curiosity in this matter, ”
Like postings on YWN???
@Yagel Libi: There you are! I hadn’t seen your answer on that other page where you asked for sources! Please answer me there. Thanks! Also, by the way, do you not agree that exactly the fact you stress — that the true translation kol korei says non-violent hafganos are bad, as well — is very indicative of the fact that the kol korei is not authentic? I mean, it is quite demonstrable that countless gedolim have many times called for non-violent hafganos…
Yagel libi I was at a Hafganah that Rav elyashuv was at with 250,000 ppl and another about the draft with almost a million ppl, that the gedolim said all men women and children should attend they did there was no violence, not one arrest.
It says iyuv who kept quiet was nidon beyisurim because he should of protested
What was done 50-80 years ago, may not be appropriate for now. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t appropriate back then, it doesn’t mean the Torah has changed, it means that way we ‘fight’ has changed. Please tell us which ‘gedolim nowadays’ have organized protests.
@emeslaamito: Uh… hmmhhmmm… maybe… RAV CHAIM, SHLIT”A?!?!
We had protests in bp with hundreds of people. Remember heshy tischler.
Yashar – No, it is not indicative that the kol koreh is not authentic. The kol koreh has been widely published and neither rav has issued any denial. Furthermore, mainstream charedim have (with rare exceptions) long looked askance at hafganot. It has always been more-or-less tolerated as something that some very specific groups of charedim participate in but never (or at least hardly ever) mainstream charedim. And now that the hafganot have become so violent and ugly, even that measure of tolerance is evaporating. The big news is that harav Kanievsky and harav Edelstein have stated openly and publicly what many mainstream charedi rabbis have long been saying privately, each to their individual tzibbur.
You may also be interested to hear that there is a backstory going around (which I cannot vouch for) that harav Kanievsky wanted to go further and to decree that any yeshiva bochur found participating in a hafgana would be expelled from Yeshiva, and this decree was not included in the kol koreh only because harav Edelstein opposed it.
Re sources – I’m not sure where that page was but I am certainly still interested.
@Yagel Libi: When I say inauthentic, I don’t mean that someone simply went and claimed it was from them; I mean that their chatzeiros decided to publish it (perhaps even with the general approval of the two gedolim mentioned) but without the gedolim actually reviewing the text (leading to inaccuracies in the exact lashon — such as the condemnation of all non-violent hafganos). Additionally, the fact that the kol korei was unsigned is highly indicative of inauthenticity.
Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shach, etc. were quite mainstream — as is, yblch”t, Rav Chaim, shlit”a, himself; they all have, in the past, encouraged various hafganos with signed kol koreis. Certainly, however, it is correct that your basic, weekly/daily Meah Shearim hafgana was never close to mainstream. The kol korei, however, indicates that ALL hafganos are to be shunned.
Perhaps the gedolim have decided that since, as you point out, the hafganos in general have recently gotten far more ugly and can commonly be expected to reach a tremendous level of chillul sheim shamayim, hafganos should no longer be condoned. Nevertheless, that would not mean that they are “known to be against the ‘way of the torah'”!
The backstory is interesting; I have a hard time believing it based on what I just said. However, if the story is true, it is not at all far-fetched that he was referring to violent hafganos. (I could still see Rav Gershon disagreeing even regarding violent hafganos; you seem well-acquainted with the chareidi world in Eretz Sifarteinu, as well, so I’m sure you know what I mean — just watch any chinuch video of Rav Gershon, shlit”a.)
And now, regarding the sources: On the other page, I simply wrote to you that I would list sources if you told me you were still interested. Okay; you are interested. Great! So, I am very busy; I’m sure you are, as well, and I need a few days to do proper research. I just don’t want to waste my time. Can you commit to keeping this tab open until Monday morning? I will research and then post the sources by Motza’ei Shabbos or Sunday to ensure that they will be approved by the mods by Monday morning.
I commit to uploading the sources. If you see nothing by Monday morning, feel free to close the tab; it will mean that either, for some strange reason, the mods refused to upload the post, or that I was beset by unforeseen circumstances and was unable to complete this project. I assure you, however, that if I cannot upload the list merely because I see that I was mistaken, I will upload a comment to that effect.
Do you commit to keeping the tab open until Monday morning and checking back then?
Thanks so much!
Please answer right away so that I can start researching and get back to you by Monday morning!
Yashar – I cannot ask you to spend your valuable time on this if I cannot comply with your request but I cannot do so as I only occasionally turn my computer on. But I do truly thank you for your kind offer.
@Yagel Libi: You’re welcome!