It’s truly a great and virtues project to tell the world that Zionism is contrary to the foundation of the Jewish nation – the holy Torah.
However, instead of doing it in a constructive way you do it in a way that is very destructive.
The Jewish nation traditionally was always true to the Rabbinic process, as handed down from Moshe Rabeinu. When a question confronts the Torah Jews they always followed their Torah sages. When the Zionist dilemma came upon us, בעווה”ר, there were many opinions among the true Torah giants of the time. To take one opinion and to call it “True Torah Jews” thereby implying that the others are not true to the Torah is one of the things that delay the ultimate Geulah, just like Zionism itself.
Again, it’s really a great thing to trumpet to the world the truth about Zionism, but it will be so much more effective and popular if you were truthful and all inclusive. [ie -Don’t only side with the Satmerer Rav’s opinion about the Three Oaths – although he was truly great – but include the words of the Baal Hafla’ah and Rav Shlomo Kluger and others that if the gentiles give permission it’s permitted, etc.] – The fact is, the real problem of Zionism was it’s foundation by people whos life mission was to secularize the nation, not this ‘nity-gritty’ stuff.
If you are part of the political system, vote and take government funding, you are not at all any more Zionist. The plain fact is, weather you like it or not, you are living in a country that takes our taxes, a lot of it, and then give us back a fraction of what we put in. Not voting is like voting. This wave of new Gezeiros would not have been if every frum yid would vote – so said the Chazon Ish, the Steipeler, and many many other “Torah True” giants. – Just don’t get into the details WITHIN the frum world, since they are all according to the Torah system. Again, if Rava disagrees with Abaye about Shabbos that ‘s ok, but if students of Rava would call students of Abaye “mechalelei Shabbos” that would be in total violation of the tradition.
While the Satmar way has it’s advantages, it also has the opposite – like everything else. It creates a notion that we only care for our own spirituality, not for the nation’s as a whole. A total cut, into two nations. Other problems exist as well. Hashem obviously saw fit to arrange that some Torah Jews should be this way and some that way, probably to create the perfect blend to carry on the truth, but let’s not pick Beis Shamay over Beis Hillel when we don’t have a Sanhedrin.
It’s really high time that Torah Jews put their differences in proper prospective, instead of blowing them up way out of proportion. We must unite even just a bit, stop yelling “my way is right” when there are other true Torah ways, before we can ask Hashem to unite us.
If you continue in your current way, you are doing a service and a disservice at the same time.
אל תהיו מחוצפים להשתמע כאילו הסטייפלר והחזו”א ור’ אהרן קוטלר ור’ אלישיב נאמנים פחות ממכם לתורה הקדושה
אם תמשיכו כך אז בעוד שהם מדחיקי הקץ אתם מרחיקי הקץ…
M.D. Shwekey
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
35 Responses
We are not here because of the heroes who went to war against the Romans, but because of those who refused to share the burden of warmaking and took on the burden of Torah and Mitsvos. When they ask how did the Jewish people survive the turmoil of the 20th and 21st century, it will not be due to the affluence or scientific accomplishments of the hiloni Jews, or the bravery of the zionist soldiers, but due to the perserverance and stubborness of the hareidim whose devotion to Torah and Mitsvos will survive when only antiquarians know what a zionist, or a conservadox, or an Arab once were in some long lost era.
but include the words of the Baal Hafla’ah and Rav Shlomo Kluger and others that if the gentiles give permission it’s permitted.
Who exactly are the gentiles who gave permission? How can some countries give away a land which is not theirs?
(Besides what Satmar Rebbi explains that they only reference to the oath שלא ימרדו באומות, but not on the oath שלא יעלו בחומה.)
I don’t request that you agree to his opinion, but you can’t simply leave it that according to these Poskim a medina is 100% Mutar. If you request them to bring all sides, you ought to do the same, don’t be a hypocrite.
akuperma – I completely forgot, how could I have been so foolish? Right, so when the Syrian-Greeks were violating Jewish women and banning Shabbos, Milah and Limmud haTorah the Chashmonaim pulled out their Seforim and gave great chidushim to save the day! Esther didn’t politically intervene and risk her life and Mordechai didn’t protest in the gates of the palace, there was only the three day fast.
Your dogmtic views are contradictory to Torah haKedosha and our Mesorah. YES – TORAH IS THE IKKAR OF EVERYTHING! The Midrash says “omdos hayu ragleinu bish’arayich Yerushalayim, why were we successful in battle? because of the Batei Midrash in Yerushalayim.” But that doesn’t meant that Torah study alone is enough – after all there was a physical battle to be fought and won, the soldiers went out to battle and were reinforced by sha’arei Yerushalayim. – in every generation of Jewish antiquity, from Avraham Avinu, to Moshe Rabeinu, to David haMelekh and Rabi Akiva – all were statesmen and warriors in addition to being Gedolei HaTorah ve’haMesorah.
There is a Torah makhlokes, but how dare you compare Yidden – sons, husbands and fathers -, who literally leave their families and die on the battlefield to protect Yidden, both bnei Torah and even the ‘reikanim shebanu’ for the simple reason they are Acheinu Beis Yisroel – how dare you compare them to son’ai Yisroel.
The Karrites would agree with you, they think that theirs is the only true Torah. So enjoy the company of other apikoresim.
M.D.Schweky you are so right they just dont get this chillul hashem thing b/c that them
akuperma [1],
No. It will not be due to stubbornness. Maybe stubbornness for Yiddishkeit, but not stubbornness of making Machlokes, and keep saying: “You see, my way is the only right one!”
And if a ‘Zionist’ soldier fights for the sake of protecting all the Yidden who live in EY, because of his firm belief that this is a Mitzva (which it can very well be, under many circumstances) – than it will be due to his efforts as well.
Mister, open your eyes, and get out of your narrow mindedness. True Torah has many facets to it, and we need this ‘breitkeit’ in Yiddishkeit to bring the Geulah.
Rosh chem [4],
Your Rabbes have failed miserably to teach you the difference between Karrites and true Mesorah. You are a good yid with a burning love for yiddishkeit, but you are missing the basics of that yiddishkeit…
These sincere Satmars are soo lishmah, but not leshaim shamayim ,good simple people, being mislead nebech by mislead people.How do we know-ask a gentile what he thinks of the demonstration in NYC.This gov. is Gentile Rebbi.Its not thier fault its their very sincere,naive so called gedoilim
this was a big ikuv to beas hagoel
Issues with some CHasidic Groups.
I noticed many childrens books of Chassidim depict Avraham Avinu and other Tanach figures and even rishonim such as Rashi depicted as Chassidic looking with long peyos and even streimels. I guess that is “Revisionist Jewish History”. The Polish rural garments of todays chassidic garb is from eighteenth century Poland. It is understandable if some Chasidic mechanchim may be concerned their children may feel very “different” dressing as they do. But to Rewrite Jewish History and lyingly debase all other Talmidei Chachamim and Shomrei Torah Umitzvos as “Goyim” is Unallowed. There were TWELVE Shevatim with unique characteristics camped around the Mishkan in Hashems service. Chasidism coincidentally started in the eighteenth century. Regarding Satmar and Zionism. Concern for our Millions of fellow Jews in Our Land, Eretz Yisroel, is not called ‘Zionism’. It is called
I invite all to look at the last Mishna in the first Perek of Mesechta Yevomis: Bais Shammai and Beis Hillel are cholek in all areas of Sh’as and as a result, differ widely in all areas of Halacha.
Yet, as the Mishna says, they had no problem being Meshadech with one another, and had no problem eating in each other’s houses.
The probably had no problem ‘Mishing’ on Pesach either.
Why we constantly go to war with each other if we don’t agree with each other’s Shitas is beyond the realm. No wonder the Geula doesn’t come!
Kal Yisorel Arayvim Zeh LAzeh and Al Taamod Al Dam Rayacha.
Anything else is called SINAS CHINAM and BOGDUS. I understand that Zionists have a history of anti-Torah programs from before the state of Israel and especially the first decades. But at the same time , especially since Begin, they gave millions of dollars to Torah education and even though most Jews are not religous, Shabbos is the offical day of rest and so far Orthodox is the recognized stream for marriage and other things. Thereis a Torah imperative called Hakaros Hatov. Especially for our brothers that put their lives on the line in danger to PROTECT us all. I understand the need to protest regarding drafting yeshiva people en masse. I also Understand the need to ALSO PROTREST when some Neturei KArta (SATMAR?) join with IRAN who aim to Destroy Israel.
“I also Understand the need to ALSO PROTREST when some Neturei KArta (SATMAR?) join with IRAN who aim to Destroy Israel.”
Satmar believes that in order for mashiach to come, the current State of Israel needs to be destroyed. So, even if they disagree with NK’s tactics they do believe in the same goal.
“Concern for our Millions of fellow Jews in Our Land, Eretz Yisroel, is not called ‘Zionism’. It is called”
Yes? It is called? Nu? Spit it out already!
No idea who M.D. Shwekey is, but one small piece of advice (granted it is unsolicited, but so is this open letter)….COMMENT DELETED
Moderators Note: Your comment is not an open letter. You an anonymous blogger. The letter writer proudly placed his name along with his letter. Mn up and do the same if you want your attack published.
It is also ‘beughtiful’ the two fighting Satmar sects made Shulem to protest against Israel.
How many millions of shekels are Satmar Chassidim giving “Zionist goyim” by living in Israel (PAlestine?) and making purchases that goes in taxes (sales) to the government as well as paying for their aprtments or homes , etc.
Is the Shemona Esrais also to be censored for calling for all Jews to be gathered back in “Our Land” and for Jerusalem to be rebuilt (presumably not under Palestinian control?)
See, sinas yisorel causes sinah to be coming back at them.
please see gemora and explain what this means.
חלק פרק אחד עשר סנהדרין צח
אמר רבי חמא בר
חנינא אין בן דוד בא עד שתכלה מלכות
הזלה מישראל
rashi
עד שתכלה מלכות הזלה.
שלא תהא להם שוס שולטנות לישראל
אפילו שולטנות קלה ודלה:
Satmer are true torah jews but so is the rest of the yishva world
Just to clarify:
By ‘nitty grity’ I didn’t mean anything in Torah is unimportant. What I mean was anything that has different ‘True Torah’ interpretations. Your Rebbe might of held the oaths to be a major problem, but your head is in the sand if you ignore so many different opinions in the manor.
I’m sorry to say, but when the satmerer Rebbe goes to EY and makes a big rally and says that we who don’t vote are more pure, and the others are connected to טומאה etc. etc. it is a ‘true Torah’ crime! – it’s like if Rava would make rallies and call Abaye less שומר שבת because he is of a different opinion regarding Hilchos Shabbos.
We must stop this. Either get together with the other Rabbonim and discuss it civilly, or don’t focus on it!
1. anti zionism is as much a religion for this group as zionism is for the secularists.
2. instead of calling for returning the land to the arabs (as the last speaker said), why don’t you start a satmar community in ramallah ?
Facts are facts. The tzionim from the very beginning wanted israel to be a cultural jewish state not a Torah state. They have kidnapped the yeminite children and shmad them. They used their mossad for over two years to search for a little boy who’s frum grandfather wanted to keep him frum. You all heard of yossele schumacher. They have been the arch enemy of authentic judaism. Supporting forced authopsies,chillul shabbos,tattoo shops,over a million abortions of jewish babies,toevah parades and today passed another bill in bringing toevah marriage in the near future,digging of rabbis graves over the years,etc etc. We pray there bigoted racist pork eating leadership get destroyed like the rest of our enemies.
17, What’s the problem? It means Moshiach will not come to SAVE the Jewish state, but only after it fails. I hope it’s not a surprise to you that we all believe in that. We also believe Moshiach will only come when גסי הרוח will stop walking around with their noses up in Klal Yisroel, as it says there, but for the time being we still have to deal with them unfortunately.
If a knives tries to steal your property and your identity and you have a way to negotiate and salvage some, that doesn’t mean you are recognizing and legitimizing him.
It’s not a contradiction to drive a truck for a living in this Golus even though we know that when Moshiach comes we won’t have to do that any more…
17, and one more point (which maybe you had in mind):
Does this mean that it’s our job to see to it that it fails? – No. Just like it says “אין בן דוד בא עד שתשלוט מלכות הרשעה ט’ חדשים” and it doesn’t mean it’s our job to see to it that it happens. Only muslims think this way…
Our job is to live according to the Torah, and to deal with the state in a way that best advances the good of the entire Klal, as much as we can see. If it looks like giving back some land will result in saving a few lives for a period of time – then we should do it. But if giving it back will cause the opposite and cause much hardship to Yidden – WE DO NOT GIVE IT BACK. Period.
I recall reading I think a Satmar rebbe recently said the NonJews (he said Goyim)will respect Satmare more than frum yidden that cooperate with the government on other matters that now protest yeshiva draft. A) I am not fully sure how much nonJews CARE about yeshiva drafts issues in Israel.
B)A nonJewish coworker recently told me when he lived in Monroe he recalled at a Rebbes Funeral on Friday afternoon many Satmar drove to the funeral and left their cars on the roads for shabbos. If he represents the nonJews let me say the nonJews do not think highly of Monroe Satmar. Do Satmar consider all non Satmar “goyim”? Or just those that do not Hate (like Meshugana Rashaim) Jews in Israel that help defend its people.
“Who exactly are the gentiles who gave permission? How can some countries give away a land which is not theirs? ”
Ottoman Empire permitting large scale Jewish immigration in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
League of Nations Palestine Mandate that provided for a Jewish National Home in Palestine starting in the 1920s. (By that time, the Ottoman Empire had ceased to exist, and successor state, the Turkish Republic, renounced all claims to the region in the Treaty of Lausanne, so at that point the land did not belong to anyone else.)
United Nations General Assembly on November 29, 1947 approved a Jewish State and an Arab State within the territory of the about-to-end Palestine Mandate.
There should be no question even according to the opinion that the oaths are binding that this addresses the two oaths that apply to Jews. To reject the position held by the government that ruled Eretz Yisrael, and the two official associations of the Nations of the World, is itself a rebelling against the gentiles! And the nations of the world had failed to keep the third oath by allowing the Shoah to happen. However, it is much easier to argue that the oaths are really an aggadata and are not halachically binding as they do not appear in either the Rambam’s Mishneh Torah or the Shulchan Aruch.
How much funding exactly does “torahtruejews.com” get from Arab or neo Nazi groups? I recall Fahrakhan once had such a group featured at one of his anti Jewish rallies.
And was this group involved at the chassidic visit to Iran to voice unity against Israel?
And how strong is the connection of Satmar to this group?
I think these are very serious questions.
It may question if some are at least very close to “Rodeif” status
@MD
I think you did not understand my sarcasm to #1, I know who the Karrites are, what I was saying is that just like they believe that they are “true” Jews, so to is Akuperma like them for sowing dissention amongst Jews, and insisting that only HIS way is the true way.
This demo/RALLY is a Williamsburg versus Monroe fight to the end. The group that can prove it is more ANTI ANTI-Israel will win the golden trophy of Reb Yoeli.
Regarding Sanhedrin, I see the Maharsha gives a view it refers to Aram.
I wonder how Rashi, who lived in France at the time of the Crusades, would have felt had he lived to see Israel and a Jewish army and a Jewish government funding millions of shekels to yeshivas for many years. And the Kosel HaMaaravi in Jewish (though tenuos!) hands. I know Rav Yehuda Halevi who wrote the Kuzari was very excited to hear of the Jewish kingdom of the KhaZars.
IT IS ONE THING TO BE AGAINST THE PHILOSOPHY OF ZIONISM AND THOSE WHO ARE ZIONISTS.
IT IS ANOTHER THING TO GIVE SUPPORT TO OUR ENEMIES.
the problem is that Zionism really died as a philosophy many years ago. All that remains are the lost liberal politicians who preach anti-religious smears to bolster their ratings in the liberal world. They are our enemies today.
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE
the issue of the oaths is that it is a sakanah – pikuach nefesh is doche everything – the problem with zionism isn’t only the secularism – that is tafel – the ikar is the pikuach nefesh – thousands of Jews have died because of the State of Israel who would be alive today or have lived a long life if not for the Zionist movement
MODERATOR: I don’t know if you’re willing to post all of this, even though it seems very relevant. Maybe could it be a CR discussion.
Below is a quote from the Satmar Rav (Maamar Yishuv Eretz Yisroel 133) summarizing his position, but first I want to cite that R’ Aharon Kotler, zatzal, said that the Satmar Rav was simply stating exactly what Chazal and Rishonim require us to do in response to Zionism, and that the burden of proof was on people like him (R’ Aharon) to show that present circumstances justify deviating from Chazal’s requirements. I’ve also heard from a prominent Israeli Rosh Yeshiva who was a devoted talmid of Rav Shach, zatzal, that Rav Shach said that in principle (l’shita) he held with the Satmar Rav 100%, just that it wasn’t possible to put it into practice (e.g. not voting or taking money from the government). I’ve also heard from a reliable source, that Reb Avraham Kalmanovich, zatzal, once told Reb Aharon Kotler that since the Chofetz Chaim (with whom R’ Avraham had a close connection) he hadn’t seen anyone with such a clarity in emuna.
Below is a quote from the Satmar Rav (Maamar Yishuv Eretz Yisroel 133) summarizing his position, but first I want to cite that R’ Aharon Kotler, zatzal, said that the Satmar Rav was simply stating exactly what Chazal and Rishonim require us to do in response to Zionism, and that the burden of proof was on people like him (R’ Aharon) to show that present circumstances justify deviating from Chazal’s requirements. I’ve also heard from a prominent Israeli Rosh Yeshiva who was a devoted talmid of Rav Shach, zatzal, that Rav Shach said that in principle (l’shita) he held with the Satmar Rav 100%, just that it wasn’t possible to put it into practice (e.g. not voting or taking money from the government). I’ve also heard from a reliable source, that Reb Avraham Kalmanovich, zatzal, once told Reb Aharon Kotler that since the Chofetz Chaim (with whom R’ Avraham had a close connection) he hadn’t seen anyone with such a clarity in emuna.
1. For a tzaddik who observes the entire Torah and does no aveiros, it is a great merit to live in Eretz Yisroel. Even those poskim who hold that the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel does not consist simply in dwelling in the Land agree that mitzvos are given much more worth by being performed in the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel. Thus dwelling in Eretz Yisroel is equivalent to all of the Torah, even according to those who do not hold that living in the land is a mitzvah in itself, since every bit of Torah and mitzvos one does there is much of more significance, even in the present era. As I have explained, it is my humble opinion that all authorities agree on this. Even Rabeinu Chananel [who says that living in Eretz Yisroel is not a mitzvah] takes that position only because the vast majority of people do commit transgressions and therefore dwelling in the land is not considered a mitzvah for such people. Hv, for those who withstand trials and do not sin there, the Torah and mitzvos they do is of much greater signficance in Eretz Yisroel and their reward has no limits. May my lot be with those who truly serve Hashem in Eretz Yisroel.
2. Just as the value of observing the entire Torah in Eretz Yisroel is so great, the damage done by those who transgress the Torah in Eretz Yisroel is also very great. As much as mitzvos done there have more weight, so also transgressions done there are accounted that much more seriously. If observing the whole Torah in Eretz Yisroel makes the very fact of dwelling there equivalent to observing the whole Torah, any transgressions done there are equivalent to violating the whole of the Torah. On this point also there is no disagreement among the authorities. This is true even of the Charedim and the Shelah, who wax eloquent about the importance of living in Eretz Yisroel and cite the opinion of the Ramban [who holds that it is a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel]. Nonetheless, even they say that those who transgress there are aptly described in the verse, “You come and defile My land;” they will be thrown out of Eretz Yisroel like dogs and eventually Hashem will shake them off the land. Furthermore these authorities quote the Ramban himself concerning the seriousness of transgressions in Eretz Yisroel. Thus on this point as well there is no disagreement.
Apart from the seriousness of the actions of those who transgress in Eretz Yisroel, who thereby defile the land and delay the geula and bring on themselves severe punishment, I have explained that they are not even observing the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.
Even according to the Ramban, when the Torah said to live in Eretz Yisroel it was talking only about those who observe the entire Torah. The fact that the Charedim and the Shelah did not mean their discussion to include those who transgress the most serious aveiros, such as chilul Shabbos, eating trefus, or similar things, is because the Torah does not talk about those whose souls are already dead, as the Pnei Yehoshua wrote. Rather they warned people who do aveiros that everyone takes lightly, such as eating at a meal with friends without remembering that they are in Hashem’s presence, that they are condemned by the words of the possuk, “…and you will come and defile my land …” to be expelled from the land.
In a similar fashion we find the Teshuvos Maharam in the Kolbo and Reb Yaakov Emden speaking of those sins which are commonly slighted by people who observe the Torah. All of these are extremely important in Hashem’s eyes, and it is difficult for us to know which ordinary people have more merits than sins to their credit.
I have cited Rishonim who rule that anyone who flatters the wicked defiles the land. The Teshuvos Maharam in the Kolbo says that this applies also to those in Eretz Yisroel who make machlokes where it is not proper to do so. The Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh writes that even if someone in Eretz Yisroel observes the Torah in its entirety but fails to protest against those who violate the Torah, as they are required to, the land will vomit him out. The Sefer Charedim writes (Negative Commandment 80:4:43), “Whoever does not wage machlokes against these who do wrong is punished for all of their sins and violates the negative commandment, ‘And you shall not bear sin for him.'” This passage is also cited in Shaarei Teshuva by Rabeinu Yona, III:59. The Teshuvos Maharam in the Kolbo and in the Shelah write further that the possuk, “The land eats her inhabitants,” applies to those who sin in Eretz Yisroel. The Sefer Shaarei Tzedek also speaks about the strict standards that apply to those who live in Eretz Yisroel.
“por” [32],
It’s very sad that you think we don’t agree with every word you wrote, but what does this long ‘Drashah’ have to do with anything???????
MDshweks , I think it was excellent that you wrote the letter.
But do you agree with everything the poster wrote?
It is obviously written by a nieve moron who thinks all non Frum Jews in Israel are to be protested against for not being frum.
Is that the way you feel is correct?
Most Jews in Israel and every country are not religous.
Will this nieve moron scream att all these people that they are bad?
Is he a Meshigina? Will he ever get a job?
Does he consider anyone who is not Chasidish a “Goy” – or between a Goy and a Yid (chassidish)?
What about the chiyuv to be a MENTCH.
What about Chillul Hashem.
What about Tinok Shenishba.
What about standing with 6 million Jews in a volatile region. Will his protesting make Jews that want to live in our anscestral and Holy land leave?
Or will it merely give cheer to thsoe that want to destroy the Jews of Israel.
Is his Shita that of a Rodeif?
I think he means that satmars views are unsustainable, therefore the only accomplishment they are doing is chillul Hashem