38 Responses

1. Hey Editor, GET A LIFE!!! Stop ruining the world with all this garbage and put some real news on!! (Dare you to post this)

   Moderators Response: Sure.

   Moshe Berger
   Teshuva2011
   [email protected]
   24.189.223.218

2. dont tell me all those charedim are learning get real …… Walk down any street in yerushalayim you will see ‘bocharum’ smoking, talking on their ‘kosher mobiles’ and eating in resturants….

   not everyone is cut out for learning ….. Some people were brought by Hashem to work ……….

   Get over it stop being so narrow minded

   secondly if they dont get jobs who will support them ….. Mummy and daddy , mother in-law and father in-law don’t have unlimited money …….

3. You are saying we should think before commenting but trying to wade through your paranoia and gibberish it is very hard to actual write a thought out comment. You seem to be a Mizrachist who is trying to justify your existence by accusing others of Hypocrisy. Your Op-ed is childish drivel driven by jealously and a inferiority complex. Sorry to put it you bluntly. If you really want to do what is right than daven to Hashem to help you find the correct path and stop looking at others for the wrong they are doing to justify yourself.

4. There is too much anger in this essay. But the truth hurts.
   Everything Mr. Oberman writes is so so true.
   We should be ashamed of ourselves.

   But, what in the world can we do about people that dress like us, talk like us, are even related to us but are an embarrassment to us.
   Any ideas out there?

5. “this does not exist anywhere else in the world to the best of my knowledge”? It most certainly does exist. Without Medicaid/CHIP/HUD/Section 8/WIC/Food Stamps/Fair Housing/Balanced Housing, etc. 90% of the Kollel yungeleit in the USA would not be able to stay in Kollel. Without all of the government money providing food, medical care, and housing, to kollel folks, the kollel rolls would be drastically smaller in the USA. I would venture to say that the US government provides more “money” to American Yungeliet then the Israeli government provides to Israeli Yungelit.

6. I don’t mean to criticize, but this is very poorly written and very difficult to read. Perhaps it should be pulled and rewritten.

7. Eretz Yisrael avreichim are paid by the national government to sit and learn, and this does not exist anywhere else in the world to the best of my knowledge.

   I am sorry to inform you but in NY and NJ there is something call Pell grants of about $10,000 a year for each student.

8. the fact that this op-ed is given the stage to utter such kfira is beyond me how do you call this site yeshiva world news? HASHEM have mercy. anyone that has any yeshiva background knows we Jews don’t make these hachlatos the gedoli hadar!! do. we are here to listen to what they tell us ,we have no opinion about these issues!. if some one has a problem can go speak to the leaders of out proud nation gedoli yisroel!!!

9. The seems to be more of an outcry of pain than a well thought out critic.

   Am Yisroel is undergoing a healing process. Wounds are ugly things and the healing can be just as ugly. So it is no wonder we will see many ugly things in our public life. They are all, in fact, necessary.

   We must not focus too much on the immediate situation because that is like someone picking at the scabs of a wound. We must instead look at the tremendous progress the Torah community has made. There are more people learning Torah today than probably any other period since the days of the Beyet Rishon. The Torah community is strong and growing. Our enemies, internal and external, are weak and shrinking. Their behavior becomes more and more irrational and hysterical with each passing year.

   So while it is necessary to occasionally cry out in pain, let their be no despair and let us keep some perspective on what is happening around us.

10. The more I read the more confused the writer seems to be.

    What’s the answer why didn’t Neturei Karta say Tehillim for Gush Katif? What’s the difference?

    Are you trusting Rav C. Kanyevsky and Rav A. L. Steinman or not? – They didn’t make a Yom Tfilah for Gush Katif either, and they’re the onse who tell Gafne not to say what you are saying…

    Now, you have some honest point. Of course there are many wasting their time, much too many with a paper-thin ‘frum’ coating, as there are in Neturei karta, and surely plenty of fakers and time waisters by the Chilonim. The point is, there’s an effort to assimilate the boys into the israeli lifestyle, and to FORCE a draft on those who want to learn.And even those with the thin coating, yes they wish to take off that coating, which in most cases is still worth something, surely more than the coating they’ll have in the Chiloni world…

    If they really wanted the Frum to work they would give college credits for the years spent in Yeshiva – the way it’s done in the US. Gafne says this all the time. and BTW, the US also supports learning through it’s work study program, if you havn’t noticed.

    The amount the Yeshivos get is a joke compare to all the money they spend on arts and sports etc. not to mension the amount given to subsidise the failing Kibutzim…

    The last line explains it, though. You’re a proud Jew who made Aliah 5 years ago,I assume from a normally run country. Unlike you, I grew up in Israel as a child (thus my spelling mistakes…), and I see right through the whole game.

11. Thank you. Somebody had to say something about the blindness with which we pursue what we desire.

12. Nice one. Yasher koach.

13. Wow, beautifully written! Thanks!! Couldn’t agree more. As I also commented elsewhere:

    We each have our obligation, as Jews, to take part in the nation. I know that everyone keeps saying that they are taking a part by learning. I respect that, however, as others have said here – If the chareidi population wants to really present themselves as ‘sharing the burden’ for the safety of our people living in the Land of Israel via their learning, then they should take concrete steps to show their support. Some examples that cost nothing:

    1. Create a Yom Iyun at least once a month, where they declare that their learning is dedicated toward supporting our soldiers who protect us. (Worded in that specific way to allow them not to dedicate their learning for anyone who’s coming into Jewish homes to expell them as in Gush Katif).

    2. Create a rotating schedule where specific yeshivas dedicate their learning for specific army units. Even better, have a plaque placed at the entrance to the Beis Medrash that says the learning here in part is dedicated to protecting the Jewish people and specifically Unit X of the IDF that stands guard over our ability to learn Torah, daven and live in Eretz Yisrael.

    3. Set up partnering programs between the avreichim of specific yeshivas or kollels that have a partner of a specific platoon of the IDF. Encourage chavrusas (but don’t be pushy for someone who’s not interested). This will encourage a comraderie without the animosity.

    4. Set up satelite Beis Medrashes on IDF bases where avreichim can offer to be of assistance to any soldier who needs it.

    5. Create a travelling lecture series of halachos or Torah topics that are relevant to the soldiers. Again, this needs to be done is a way that’s non-judgemental and doesn’t push someone but rather encourages them to take a closer look at our heritage.

    6. Provide tours of our Holy sites – not just the Kotel but everything around the country. The avreichim can team up with the madrichim of the army’s teaching division to provide side-by-side lectures as they tour the country that is Holy to all of us – religious & non-yet-religious.

    I bet there are a lot of you who are thinking – yeah, right – they don’t want it! I’ll tell you what… first try it, in an honest & non-judgemental way and then see. To be done right, this needs the Gedolim to be interested and to specifically discuss plans – not through some underling. Can you just imagine the Kiddush Hashem possibilities??

14. Oy Vay…I hope this fellow has life insurance…I can only imagine the hate-filled disdainful comments this is going to elicit from some people I know in my ccommunity.

    That it might represent some truth…or at least a valid opinion…or the notion that reasonable people can differ on matters such as this, is irrelevant. One can’t reason with the Taliban, even yeshivish Taliban.

    You see…they are hard core subjective fundamentalists…and what they are saying is as follows:

    “What I say and what I believe, is simply what Hashem says and what Hashem believes…so..anyone who disagrees with ME, disagrees with Hashem…so he’s not merely wrong…he’s a rasha”

    B”H, these people don’t run a government…if they did, the Taliban comparisons would be a tad more serious.

15. To the critics of this editorial “:Baruch Oberman reflects many of the thoughts of thousands of chareidim and certainly “orthodox” people. The hard chareidi right runs the risk of alienating a substantial part of the orthodox crowd- If you think you can wage this war alone, I think you’ll be shocked to see how difficult it will be. There cannot be absolutist positions here- it will surely rebound. only an understanding of the other side’s postion and a compromise wil lsave the day.

16. I find it interesting – I often see comments that say “the gedolim say this, that or the other thing.” To that I’ll remind you that Bais Shammai & Bais Hillel disagreed about almost everything as did many of our historic gedolai yisroel). Some of these issues were basic issues that get to the crux of Judaism. Each of these rabbanim were gedolei yisroel!

    What does this all mean? It means that a true gadol can hope to know what Hashem wants us to do but that doesn’t always mean he’s correct. He bases his decision on the data that has been presented before him – but remember that he’s not a navi who can guess about all of the data that he was NOT presented with. With true reverence for our gedolim, they are still human. This is why we are allowed to follow different opinions in Judaism (until we are given someone definitive, like Moshe Rabbeinu again). So – look at the Lubavicher Rebbe, zt”l. He was a proponent of working with the Israeli government. There are many videos of him personally speaking to Israeli officials – even several Prime Ministers! He fought very hard against Israel relinquishing even an inch of the Land currently held by the Jews here. But, then there are some of you who point out that there are other gedolim who insist something else is “the truth.” The problem is, you insist that it’s the ONLY way to go. There are no other opinions. As #14 above says, you present it as – This is what Hashem wants, so if you disagree with me then you’re a rasha (with all the halachic implications of saying that). Wow… I wonder if Bais Shammai ever said that to Bais Hillel. Better yet, Bais Hillel never said that to Bais Shammai even though we don’t pasken like Bais Shammai!

    In the same way, there are gedolei yisroel who do agree with Mr. Baruch Oberman. “He has upon who to rely” as we say in the bais medrash. There are gedolim who promote the national service programs, the army, working for a living, etc. You may not consider these Truly Great Torah Leaders and Roshei Yeshiva as “your gadol” or “your rav” but you’d have some real chutzpah to write them off as invalid opinions or “reshaim” any more than you would do to Bais Shammai.

    THIS is why Hashem gave us such stringent halachos of how to treat a fellow Jew. Stop being the one to pass judgement on others, saying that this one or that one it a rasha – or even just saying that he’s wrong… maybe you are. Oh, and as a reminder – if you’re reeading this then you don’t follow “the gedolei yisroel” b/c you’re surfing the net right now.

17. I quote your article:
    “an unprecedented hate campaign against the torah tzibur, the chareidim.”

    How utterly arrogant of you!! Since when do we chareidim have a monopoly on Torah?? And the Mizarchi-niks, though we have some differences w/them are they not a Torah tzibur??

    And we wonder why Moshiach hasn’t come yet!!

18. Y me
    we heard your chochma = stupidity in the precious post you don”t have to say nonsense twice.

19. The author of the op-ed make many valid points. The reason for many of the negative comments above is that people identify themselves as targets for Oberman’s justified criticism and they are too lazy to change. I am equally outraged by the the statements made by the MKs of the charedi parties. In the next elections, I will ii’H vote Shas.

20. Can someone please post an edited version of this article? It seems that there are some good points, but it’s quite difficult to follow. Some of the comments, though, are quite good – I particularly like #s 13 and 16.

    an Israeli Yid

21. #13,
    You are surely another American who doesn’t understand Israel. ALL the Ideas you mentioned are done or tried all the time! But the army is very scared that the soldiers will become “Baalei Tshuva”, so they’ll allow any cristaian, budhist, and what have you in the bases besides the Avreich. You can ask Lev Laachim and Arachim all about it.

    Now what you wrote about ‘Gedolim’ in general:
    It’s not a free ride. You can’t do whatever you want and find some “Rav’. You have to look for the truth.

    The great Torah giants of the last generation gathered and met about all these issues (only the Lubavicher Rebbe chose to rule on his own without discussing it with anyone els). They disagreed alot, but they also agreed alot too.

    In that genaration of the Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Belzer Rebbe, Gerrer Rebbe, Rav Aharon Kotler, Etc. Etc. there was only one, Rav Kook Ztza”l who was the leader of the Tadi Leumi. At that time he himself wrote a letter stating that they should try to get as much bochurim to learn full time, and only those who “cannot” should go to Hesder Yeshiva.

    But by now it’s well known that in those parties the ‘Rav’ is not the one with the last word, and unfortunately, their Rabbonim have their limit where they have a say and where they sucomb to the feeling of: “what can you do, it’s a new generation”…

    I’m not saying we are much different, and surely we have much to improve. But don’t come with the notion of “Yesh Al Mi Lismoch”..

22. I see that the poster here does not understand the why we can’t go to the army. first of all becuse in parshas mattos 31:4it says elef limate elef limate. A thousand per tribe a thousand per tribe. Rash on that posuk says why do you need to say it twice. And he answers A THOUSAND FIGHTS AND AND ATHOUSAND LEARN. It is quite possible that if the country was charedei then we would go to the army.But as this is not the case and we are under strenth in learners no one can go until we hit 50% percent learners. And if you ask what about the guys who sit in yeshiva and don’t learn, they don’t go to the army Becuse we are understrenthe in learners we need everyone who might oneday get inspiered and start learning.

23. 5 & 7: All the programs you mentioned are applicable depending on your income. Monies received in Israel are received by Avrechim with no connection to their financial straits. Also in USA most kollel couples survive on the wives and parents income.

    Thank you Baruch for your post and the truth is inherent. We have a component of learners who are stuck in knee high mud with no where to go. No education, no army services and no way to get a job. Stuck and involved instead with bringing in SMART fones, custome items, cash laundering and lots of batlanus. Wake up, there is zero busha to be an ehrlich Yid who is working for a living, learning torah and observing mitzvohs. Unless the Israeli government sets up army bases that allow and encourage Mitzvoh Observance,,there will be no conscrips. Shachar brigade and air force were willing to capitalize on the brains of the frum and both sides are benefitting.

    Change will come as it always does…..

24. What, exactly, is the author’s point?

25. ouch, that hurt. Now stop being a playground bully & go back to the bais medrash & learn… perhaps Chofetz Chaim would be a good choice. Now, let the adults have a mature conversation.

26. I am sorry to inform you but in NY and NJ there is something call Pell grants of about $10,000 a year for each student.\\

    josh_v (#5) compares the State of Israel paying Bnei Torah to learn with the USA which has several social programs Medicaid/CHIP/HUD/Section 8/WIC/Food Stamps, etc. of which the Kollel yungeleit avail themselves in order to learn. It’s a world of difference between Israel paying Bnei Torah for the expressed purpose to learn for which one has to be a Ben Torah and has to want to learn, versus the American social programs for which Puerto Ricans, Blacks, Hispanics, as well as the Kollel yungerleit qualify based on their income earning potential.

27. y me says:

    “He has upon who to rely” as we say in the bais medrash.

    I don’t know where you learn, but in my Beis Medrash we say, “He has upon whom to rely.”

    I guess that makes us more correct.

28. I think this editorial has some one valid point, but and on the whole he is not making much sense really.
    I’ll narrow it down to facts which this person doesn’t appear to know.
    A. This Mdina was created against the Torah of the majority of Gdolim. And so we don’t have to accomadate them they have to accomadate us. You don’t walk into someones house and decide things for them.
    B. For those seeking to join the army you would have expected them to accomadate the Frum in the best way possible, but they don’t, because the vision of the drafters is to destroy the people that keep the Torah, not accomdate them.
    C. Those who live in Israel with large families like most Charedim do, and buy food pay huge amount of taxes from their food bills automaticaly to the tax system. Which gives the Charedim a very small amount in return.
    D. The Israeli government gives alot less benefits to the less privileged then most western countries, including the U.S. and the U.K.
    E. This person appears to have had his ideas fed to him by the Israeli secular anti frum media that has a very clear agenda. To destroy Torah
    I do agree that there are some people that are taking money from koilelim which they don’t attend. And this is a Chilul Hashem Here is where a point is being made. But that’s it. Everything else could have come straight from Reshet Bet, Ydiot Achronot, secular media, lies and blood libels in order to push an agenda.

29. is it just me, or does nobody follow this guys logic? apparently he has many gripes about the frum community, and decided that now was a good time to let them all out…

30. ‘Those who live in Israel with large families like most Charedim do, and buy food pay huge amount of taxes from their food bills automaticaly to the tax system. Which gives the Charedim a very small amount in return’

    LARGE FAMILIES HAVE LOTS OF GARBAGE AND THE TAX $$$ PAYS FOR GARBAGE PICKUP PLUS MANY SUBSIDIZED FOOD PRODUCTS (eggs, bread, cheese, milk) . So the benefits are many.

31. #28, wake up a smell the coffee!!! The non-Chareidim are the majority, and they run the show, you have to take that into account. Do you think when Yidden lived in Europe they defied the Government like that?

32. I don’t know who you are, but you seem to have an agenda against the chareidim and people that are sitting and learning. Walk into hundreds of kollelim around Eretz Yisrael and you will find THOUSANDS of bnei torah sitting and leaning dilligently with tremendous self sacrifice. Where is your respect and value for torah learning? How do you know that the bachur you see doing “whatever it is you don’t like” is not a gem in the eyes of the almighty? Imagine what the army would do to him! Yes, his “only” 5-7 hours of daily learning is very valuable in shomayim! Do you think that only “R Chaim Kanievskys” or “R’ Steinmans” or “R Elyashivs” are allowed to learn Torah? Is it only their Torah that is choshuv in the eyes of the Eibishter? Why are you so bitter? Obviously, everyone needs to have concerns and care about their fellow jew, Chareidim for Mizrachi, Dati Leumi, secular, etc. AND the Mizrachim, Dati Leumi, secular for the Chareidim. I’m not quite sure what you’re so upset about. Do you like Chareidim?

33. MDShweks –
    I am a Jew who made Aliyah from the US years ago and I have served in both the general Israeli world as well as the chareidi world. I thank you very much for not taking personal pot shots at me or anyone else – including the Dati Leumi yidden who learn tremendous amounts of Torah, have many wonderful gedolei haTorah upon WHOM they rely, and serve our nation in many ways (army, sherut leumi, medicine, law, businness, absorption of millions of Jews to our Land, kiruv, etc, etc, etc). I really do understand that you feel your rabbanim are the be-all and end-all of our Holy Torah but I doubt the gedolei haTorah that you quote would agree with your motzei sheim rah comments, nor would they agree with you being on the internet right now. They are true gedolim & are modest to say that they don’t have all of the answers and there are other valid opinions in the True Torah world.

    That said, you are correct, one cannot run around “doing whatever you want & find some Rav.” What you are doing there is accusing huge numbers of frum yidden of doing something that they may or may not be doing. I can tell you that there are certainly some people who do what they want & then quote a Rav upon whom they rely. However, many of us truly follow the guidance of our rabbanim. When you put the word “Rav” in quotes like that, I assume you are trying to insult the status of true lomdei yisroel who have forgotten more Torah than many have even learned. Before you become so obnoxious as to make those insinuations, perhaps you should meet and learn from some of these rabbanim. Mishna Avos says that the smart man is one who learns from everyone. Is it possible that there are Torah True Jews out there, ones with semicha from a yeshiva other than YOUR’s, that understand something about our mesorah?

    By the way, I strongly recommend you learn a sefer called אם הבנים שמחה (Em Habanim Semeacha) that was written during the Holocaust by a great chassidic rav, Rav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal, while he was on the run from the Nazis. It’s been translated to English twice. He was a chareid anti-Zionist that can teach you many things. In fact, he was one of the famous chareidi giants of Europe who signed famous letters against the Zionists. Long story short – he ends up agreeing with Rav Kook’s & the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s lines of thinking while he was in hiding & writing his sefer. He carefully explains how & why he went from anti-Zionist to where he ended up (I’m not going to say he ended up as a Zionist but you can read the sefer & decide). I’m not saying you have to agree with Rav Teichtal, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Kook, or anyone else but I think you’d do well with learning what it is that they say. Learn & be humbled before you go off with nasty remarks about people you’ve never had the honor to meet.

    In the meantime… my flag boy & your flag boy sitting by the fire… My flag boy said to your flag boy, gonna set you flag on fire…”

34. Actually I think the guy is more into letting out his anger then anything else. He knows very little about facts. He knows the lies the media feeds him. And he knows the resentment felt by the Mizrachim which believe that the Torah is kept with fighters in the Israeli army too. They are reknowned, and experts at accomadating the Chilonim, compromising on their religious needs for the sake of peace. And it really bothers them that the Charedi majority challenge this.
    The Israeli political system wants to accomadate the Frum to a very large extent, in order to prove its jewishness, this especially in need when claiming that Eretz Yisroel belongs to us. The pennies the Israeli government give to the Charedim for this, is a absolute joke. Charedi families are struggling financially way worse then the fraye. This is all one big blood libel. And to see a jew who calls himself religious, and if I’m not mistaken he even claims to be Charedi, is just a joke if you ask me.
    How dare people claim that Charedim on the whole are living off the Israeli government sucking her resources, enjoying the coffee given to them at kolel? Are you people being realistic? Do you know what financial difficulties these people encounter daily? I am sure most Americans would simply not put up with the limited amount of money most of these koilel people put up with. And their wives have it even harder. It is done with belief and trust in Hashem, you don’t understand it, fine. But why make us lies?
    Again I am not condoning those who resort to fraud. Claiming they are koilelim when they are simply not. Fraud unfortunately exists everywhere. Everyone has a Yetzer Hara. Its a false belief that your Yetzer Hara goes away the holier you are. But the majority of Charedim are not into fraud. And if the vast majority of the Israeli Parliament which is secular wanted to get rid of all the religious issues they are funding. They could have done that a long time ago. But they don’t, and they won’t for obvious reasons. Almost every Israeli government since the creation of the state, had religious parties in its coalition, because the truth deep down is well known. And you can’t preach about a jewish state when the identity seems more secular then anything. And so the Charedim are giving plenty. Not to mention the massive chesed organisations that give to everybody including the majority being given to the fraye. And no the fraye don’t give the frum half of what the frum give them. You wanna believe otherwise. Go ahead attack, and attach yourself to the media. Live in your bubble Mr editor. I know you bitter, but please stop the fabrications.

35. “The only person who could write such a piece is one with firsthand information of the chareidi lifestyle, one who knows from the inside.”

    Which is why this article is absolute junk. The author is clearly a dati leumi mizrachnik that doesn’t live in a charedi community.

    Oh, your so upset that I’m assuming things? This article is one massive list of assumptions.

36. 23 and 26. I agree with you. That in USA it is “need” based and in EY it is based on something else. My point is just that the USA also gives money to people so that they can sit and learn and not go out and work (I understand the point is not to let them sit and learn, the point is to help them in their time of need). The method and motive is of course different, but at the end of the day the result is the same – families are able to sit in kollel indefinitely by relying on government largess without the need to go out and work for a living.

37. to #28 most foods especially staples and children’s foods do not carry sales tax so it’s not true.

38. Poor Soul. There are self-hating Jews and I guess there are also self-hating Chareidim.
    “Where were the tehillim and tears for Gush Katif”?… “Where is the solidarity with the dati leumi?”???!!. When it happened we had plenty of empathy for them and we davened for them PRIVATELY. But public solidarity? I told my children – no way. And why? Because I said that the day they come to close down the yeshovos and hall us all off to the army the Mizrochnikim will not give one hoot about us and our concerns.
    Lo Aleynu I’ve only been proven too right. Not only have they done nothing they have actually been happy allies of
    Plesner in his attempt to close down the Yeshivos.
    We should show solidarity with the Dati Leumi when they abandoned us to the wolves who want to destroy Klal Yisroel?
    Something tells me the writer of the article doesn’t think Plesner is so terrible either.