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The Chofetz Chaim (?? ???? ??? ????, ?????? ????? ??’ ?”?) writes if someone’s health is affected by smoking he will definitely be punished “???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???, ??? ?????”.
Even though an addict has it harder he can still have free choice.
“If such a video exists, tell us where to find it; otherwise, I will assume it doesn’t exist” PH wrote “I myself, saw the video last week Sunday morning at the shul of TriStar in Woodbourne” so it’s a ????? ?????? ??????. Ask anyone who stays in that area, it shouldn’t be hard to find out I know people who went to that ?????. Also the audio Rav Chaim Kanievski is now available at this link: torashatcheiles.blogspot.com. Twisted ???? in the Rambam included blue (see ???? ??? ?????”? ?? ????”? ??).
AVihaben wrote “I sincerely doubt he said it in the context quoted. At minimum he was quoted grossly out of context” I’m not sure what the big chidush is to you that he said if your convinced it’s Tcheiles your ????? to wear it.
mms601 wrote “I had a very hard day today, thanks for giving me a good laugh” it’s a sugia that’s talui in ??????, it’s well known Rav Chaim Kanievski is not ???? his other ??????? to be ????? into ??????.
Patur Aval Asur-
“???? is more of a normal word to describe green”
You’re again basing yourself on modern usage. ??? ???? is not green (see ??? ??? ?”? ????’ ???”? ???”? ??).
Ok, so there’s a ?????? if maybe an Acharon holds it’s green. That doesn’t carry weight against the Mesorah ??? ?????? ????? that ???? is blue, geonim, all (or almost all) Rishonim, scores of Acharonim, ????? ??????, ????? ?????, Philo and Josephus who himself saw the ???? ?????.
I wrote “Also the itself can be green or blue” I meant to write “Also the ?? itself can be green or blue” so obviously both are ???? ???.
???? ??? ???????? there’s the 2 latest ???? ??????? have allot
about this shaila and there’s an Igros Moshe that says ??? ???????? ?????? for Tefilin that’s ??? ???? where you don’t have another pair.
I think murex is a ???? so it’s not ???? ????? here.
That would be equally shver if Rashi meant green. Also, only unambiguous Rishonim were quoted above so you can’t extrapolate based on that sample. ???? was a wide-ranging color (African tribes who still only have one word for green and blue have a hard time differentiating between both colors), you want Rashi give you the specific shade, ??? ???? ???.
Besides, being that 15 other Rishonim say it’s blue it doesn’t really make a difference l’gabay the color of tcheiles, I’m just explaining Chazon Nachum.
Remember this p’shat in Rashi is from ????? ???? and others, not myself.
Ask anyone who speaks Spanish or Portuguese to translate green.
“So it seems that there is a non-blue shita out there.” Your saying the ????? ???? argues with ??”? on the interpretation of ??”?, we agreed about that before, what’s your point?
3) “Many of the rayos to blue mentioned in the chosam shel zahav were based on the fact that ???? is ???? ???” I can talk for the ones I brought above, they don’t come on to ??.
5) There are different levels of ???? see ??? ??? above. Also it’s a ???? and there can be a reason it mentions each one see ??? ??? ????? ?”? ?”?. There can be no disagreement as to the exact color of Techeiles as we know it’s 100% identical to ??? ???? – indigo dye.
8)”you cannot play both sides of the fence regarding ???? ???”
We already showed how the ???? ???? dose take both sides of your arbitrary fence.
We brought the ??? ??? ?? ?? who writes “???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????’ ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??
??.” It follows that two different things can be ???? ???.
We brought the ???? ?????? which says “??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????..”. The Rishonim who understand techeiles to mean blue, obviously understand that ???? ??? encompasses blue and green.
We showed from the African Himba that our modern English vocabulary gives us a bias to divide between different types of ????.
We pointed out that there are many similar ????? in ??”? which describe natural phenomenon in ways we wouldn’t.
Also the itself can be green or blue, the Chilazon is underwater and ???? ??? is likely to mean the ?? around it.
Patur Aval Asur is it so bad thing if Hashem actually sent us techeiles?
“It was a used word – that’s what I showed from Chullin.”
The opposite, Rashi in chulin is explaining what ???? means, Rashi dose that for rare words.
“???? is very vague to use to describe Techeiles as blue, considering it can mean other colors as well.”
Find me a word for blue!
“Which Rishonim?”
??”? ??????, ?’ ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??’ ?????, ????”? ????”? ????? ? ?, ????? ???? ????? ?: ???? ???”?, ????? ???? ???? ?? -?, ??????? ?? ?? ?, ???”? ???? ?-?-?, ????”? ????????? ?”? ??’ ????, ???? ????.
“That’s not a raya considering that he explains what he means by ????.”
It shows that the generic word to describe blue was ????.
“t is clear that there is a machlokes as to the color of techeiles: Rashi and various others say that Techeiles is ???? ????? yet the Kli Yakar says clearly that it is not ???? ?????.”
??? ??? is actually saying over ??”? ???? ?”? ?”?.
In addition to your claim “Rashi knew of the word ????”, it doesn’t seem ???? was a color but a colorant, therefore there was no word for blue other than ????.
“But that is a chiddush which other meforshim may not agree with.”
I went to great length to show you it’s not a chidush, tell me what’s shver and i’ll explain. Besides you can’t just w/o basis reject a ???? ???? based on “maybe someone who we didn’t find yet might argue.”
“And this is all besides for the fact that the actual murex trunculus isn’t even green.” The green is stuck on to it, how else should you describe it?! I the ?? ???? colored?
See ??”? ??”? ?-?
?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????
How can something be called ???? if it’s only a coating that can be washed off and not ???? ?????
“who cares that the yam shel shlomo was not such a fan of him?”
It was a reference to “?? ??? ??? ??????”, being that the ??? ???? was coming from Chazal on this point, there’s no reason to count him against the ???? ????? on this point. The “letter from the Rambam” (besides for being ????? ?????) is referring to pshat not ?????.
“it is possible that ??”? is saying pshat in ???” ???? ????”. I.e. he is saying that when the mishna says ???? it means chilazon.”
Then he’d clearly be arguing on the Rishonim and ???? ????? ??????.
“Rashi knew of the word ???? and that there are definitely times that ???? means green, therefore it would be odd for him to describe Techeiles as ???? if he meant blue.”
The answer is ???? wasn’t a used word and Rashi uses a simple and understood Hebrew. Rishonim who say ???? is blue don’t use the word ???? (besides Rambam who explains himself).
????? ???? ?? ????”? ??”? ??”? ?????
already says Rashi means blue.
See ??? ????? ??’ ? ??? ?
????? ????? ?? ????? ??? “??? ???? ???? ????? ??”?
“????? ????? ??? ?????
w/o using the word ????.
“I don’t have the slightest idea what this is supposed to mean. Care to explain?”
The fact that ???? ??? is used for different colors in 2 different ??????? is not made more shver by the fact that they’re 11 lines appart. Both braisos were said at different times in different contexts. The fact that they happen to share the same ???? is not a reason for the ?? ??? to cut and change one of those ??????? so they should be match each other.
Patur Aval Assur-
Your right ????? ???? didn’t learn ??”? like ???? ????.
“why would a Mefaresh tell us what color the chilazon is which has absolutely no relvance to the Mishna at hand.”- Good point but it’s that shver to go off on a tangent and add a ???? about the ?????, like ??”? in ??? ?? ?”?:
“??? ????? – ????? ????? ????, ???? ???? ?? ???, ????? ??? ?????? “.??? Also, it highlights ???? ???? ????? being that ???? ???? ???.
“Now unless you can prove that both Rashi and the Even Ezra (and any other Rishon that may have used the word ????)meant blue, then it’s not a kashya on ?”? ???????.”
“In summary: The Chazon Nachum seems to be arguing with the Mileches Shlomo, based on a question that does not seem so compelling*, and in order to make sense out of it is mechadesh that Hashem revealed the color of the chilazon to ?”? ???????. I don’t know if that is a “wipe away all opposition” source.”
?”? ?????? . ?????
It explains how we don’t know that Rashi held it IS green. Also see Rashi Sof Shelach ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???.
Rashi says ???? but ?”? ??????? says ???? ?????? ???”?
Patur Aval Assur-
I’m sorry for not being clear, ???? means both green and blue (see ?????? in my last post and ???”? ????????? ?”? ??’ ????).
Interestingly, the African Himba tribe don’t have a word to differentiate between blue and green and they actually have a hard(er) time differentiating between the 2. Whereas they have a separate word for a certain green to which they have an easier time differentiating in practice.
Now we can understand how can easily be both blue and green can be ???? if ???? was one word used for both colors, and the Chazon nachum is not ???? the ????.
“I looked up the Chazon Nachum. I didn’t see anywhere in that piece that he said that techeiles is blue.”
?”? the reason why he learns the ?”? ??????? says the body is green, is because the dye cannot be green as it is blue.
“Furthermore he is a daas yachid saying ????”
The point is he doesn’t think it’s ???? the ???? of ???? ???. Obviously he’s saying ???? how can he know for sure the color of the Chilazon? Nor can we call him a daas yochid if you don’t know of anyone who argues in him.
“and is against a valid girsa of the Rambam”
How can it be a valid girsa of the Rambam? we have the Rambam’s ??? ?? ???? signed in the ??? ????? on the other girsa.
“as well as the mashmaos of the Gemara in Menachos. So I’m not so nispael from your raya.”
Ok, so not only are you ignoring everything we wrote above proving that it’s not a ???? from the Gemara in Menachos, but you are arguing on the Chazon Nachum who was the ??? ???? ??????? and a rebbe of the Chida.
“I’m not sure what your point is that you need strong rayos to change a girsa. If anything that’s better for me.”
You can’t change a Girsa *MiSvara* w/o strong Ra’yos. But if you have 2 different versions why is one better than the other. ??? ????? you’ll find this in all the ???????.
“What does ???? mean?”
??’ ????’ ???? ??: ?”? ????? ?????, ??’ ?????
‘???? ?? ??? ????,?? ??”? ???”? ??”? ??? ?, ??? ??’
?????? ???? )?? ????”? ??”?, ??”? ?????; ???’ ??? ????? ??’
? ??? ? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? “??? ???? ???? ????? ???
]????[ ????? ????? ??? ?????”
Patur-
The Chazon Nachum holds that tcheiles is blue and the Chilazon’s body is green!
Rashi says tcheiles is ???? not green ??”?.
“there are respectable meforshim that don’t change it (which presumably means that they did nit think it was a mistake)”
Don’t you know that you need strong ra’yos to change a girsa.
“Eleven lines prior to stating “gufo domeh l’yam” the gemara quotes R’ Meir “Techeiles Domeh L’yam”.”
Are you arguing with the Chazon Nachum (????? ???? ?’ ?’. ???’ ???’ ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????”? ?????? ???????) who learns it’s body can be green?
Also see ??”? ??”? ??? that blue is ???? ????. So it’s not so shver if it’s ???? to both.
Also see
???? ????? (??????) ?’ ?
“??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????..”
Also keep in mind that the “eleven lines prior” is not part of the argument. The gemara which brings different braisos for different reasons. The inyan of ???? ????? came from ??? ????? ?? ???. Now why should we cut out part of a Braisa?
In addition the 1st braisa says
???? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???????
which is obviously a much higher ???? of ????. It has to be different than everything else in that sense.
?????? ?? ???? ????? brings the ???? ????? (the ??? ?? we have with the Rambam’s actual signature!) saying ???? ???? ???? ???.
“And your point about the list of 900 snails is only relevant oce you have decided that the chilazon is in fact a snail”
Of course. But Dr. Singers attempt to include a squid into an ancient term used for snail, based on evolutionary terminology, is ?????? ?????!
“If you are intellectually honest, I don’t think … “it is the color of the sea” would be high up on the list.”
It’s generally green underwater, as far as the many pictures I saw (you must note that many photos are UV florescent and from fish tanks which don’t give an accurate color). Now see Chazon Nachum Berachos 1:2 who has no problem with the color being green.
“It is very unlikely that the braisa would describe a creature by some external thing which b’etzem has nothing to do with the creature.” ???? ????? the Rambam writes the sky is not ???? blue either.
“any creature covered in sea fouling will be that color” but most are not, the algae doesn’t stick to other species that way. Murex trunculus’ shell is rather rough.
“If you look you will find that the Maharsha apparently did not think it belonged in the Chidushei Aggados.”
The Maharsha is about shinuyei girsaos. Note that the Maharsha changes the girsaos of aggados in chidushei halchos, ?”?.
“in the absence of any other explanation of what the braisa is doing, we have to assume that it is describing the chilazon, kipshuto”.
Did you ever hear of an ????? Please search ????? ???? for “??? ????” and see how many descriptions of natural phenomena there are in a ways westerns would not describe it.
See ???? ?? ?????? ?????”?.
1- Someone highly experienced in this field told me he’s never seen a guy who on good terms with both his parents and didn’t eventually return.
2- Helping him out with his gashmius and not his ruchnius is proven to help.
You asked 2 different questions.
See the ????? ??”? brought in the ????? of ????”? says roughly that even if only one opinion is right, but all are considered Torah.
Patur Aval Assur, here’s the link: ???? ????? (Hebrew) (800K)
Published in K’lil Tekhelet, 5753
by Rav Eliyahu Tavger
tekhelet.com/pdf/ta01.pdf
“Your question number two bears no relevance to anything. We have not found it because we don’t know of any creature which perfectly fits the simanim. That does not mean that there is none.”
See Rav Tavger’s Maamar Hatcheiles where he writes that we have a list of all snails on the coast of E”Y and Sinai (I checked it, it’s about 900 species) and the proof that we didn’t miss any is that nothing new is ever found.
L’fi your tzad that Chazal gave stark and clear Simanim in order to find it, it’s impossible it wasn’t found.
Unless you’ll say it’s ???? ??? ???? ????, then you’ll have to answer about all the ??????? who learn otherwise, and then you can’t say Chazal was saying how to find it if it can’t be found.
Patur Aval Assur, all I was saying was that it’s not a kasha even if you’ll assume that 1) Chazal were giving instructions for finding the chilazon. 2) ???? ??? only helps you find the murex if you know the chilazon is a snail.
Mendel E. Singer Ph.D. argues that we for no reason should consider a wildly wide definition for Chilazon (even though all other languages using that word use it narrowly). Granted! For argument’s sake: there’s no raya that chilazon means only a snail!
But the point is that if you learnt Gemara you can’t ask a kasha based on a Hanacha. Let alone an unlikely hanacha w/o a shred of a raya!
“the rambam does brings down the simanim.”
Does that mean the purpose of the Braisa is l’Halacha? Couldn’t the Rambam have written it based on a Aggada? (Which means that surely it dose have to meet the meaning of the Braisa, but not the way Patur wants it to be a finder’s manual.)
“And the maharil seems to think the simanim will make it easy to find.”
The Maharil says “??”?”, meaning it’s MORE LIKELY to be found now that we have some sort of description.
“And yasher koach for the link to the updated ???? ???? ???????. Is the ???? going to make its way around like the last one?”
Likely. Do you think it’s improved enough for that? What do you think should be changed?
“And btw the third and forth pages are not so clear.”
When you download it it’s clear.
Patur said “While that may be true, the braisa is describing the chilazon to someone who doesn’t yet know that it is a snail. Saying that it looks like a fish is only helpful if we already know that it is a snail”.
????? ?????? ???? see page three of this link: torashatcheiles.blogspot.com. It is as ???? ??? as it gets.
If Chilazon was an ordinary word for any snail, as the Rishonim assume (and that’s what it means in every Semitic language and Persian till today) why would anyone assume it’s not a snail?
Furthermore, the hanacha that the braisa is coming to describe a Chilazon in order to find it is baseless:
1) we’re talkimg about a time when the chilazon so common use that ?????? ???? ???? must assume ????? ?????? ???????.
So why would the Braisa say how to find it?
2) If they were talking to a future generation looking for it and the simanim are so simply understood why didn’t we find it yet?
3) The ??? ????? bring hilchos tcheiles why did they skip this Braisa which is the one most relevant to their generarions (to know what isn’t tcheiles)?
4) The ??? ???? selects the ?????, why dose he brings this Braisa?
Toi there is documentation of the Chazon Ish’s instructions for brain surgery (Shu”t Ugnazim Chazon Ish vol. 1), which subsequently saved the patients life. If the patient would’ve thought like you he’d have been dead.
Regardless, Chazon Ish himself didn’t think smoking was healthy (letter to Steiper ibid).
He also didn’t believe he knew all medicine as GAW thinks. He’d ask doctors questions regarding being mechalel Shabbos or Yom Kipur for sick people (Maaseh ish).
Gavra-at-work said-
Famous Chasam Sofer with # of teeth disagrees. Rav Chaim is well known to have agreed with this shitta, as he also says Goyim have a different physiology than Yidden re: number of teeth.
1- If you’d actually look up the Chasam Sofer (?”? ?”?)you’d see he says explicitly it’s only l’chumra not l’kulah and not with regards to sakanah.
2- Acc. to you: Don’t go to the doctor, don’t take asprin or any other medicine, cuz they won’t work.
3- R’ Chaim himself stopped smoking (late in life) as a result of what his doctor told him (R Yakov’s son’s book) and so did R’Avrohom Yehoshua(well known).
4- Smoking is proven to kill jews also. The Israeli medical journal ?????? ??? 143 ??? ‘? shows heart attack’s are caused by smoking among jews. 9/10 lung cancer patients are smokers, according to you the ratio should be lower among jews that’s not the case according to a frum oncologist I spoke to.
5- On Yom Kippur you’d to listen to a doctor not to fast and call whoever doesn’t crazy.
6- The Maharsham and others are argue on the Chasam Sofer saying even l’kulah we go with the doctors. Accoirding to Halacha by a Chshash sakana you don’t have a right to follow the maikil in sakanah exept special ??????.
GAW -“If the Chazon Ish knew how to do brain surgery from learning Toirah, Kal V’Choimer the P’nei Yehoshua knew what smoking would do to the lungs from his vast knowledge of Toirah! And still, the P’nei Yehoshua said smoking is healthy. Either “Nishtanu HaTeva” (which I have never seen in an anti-smoking P’sak) , or the studies were not done on Yidden, who react physically differently than Eino Yehudim (as per Chazal).”
You’re ignoring Rav Shlomo Zalman (????? ????, ???? ????? ?”?, ?’ ?”?) quoted above who says that we follow the doctors of our times even when the opinion of the Rambam is otherwise.
Even though the Rambam was talking about Yidden, we don’t say the doctors opinion only applies to goyim.
I posted something like this earlier, but it seems many above are unaware so I’ll post it again.
The following is what the Poskim hold about smoking:
???? ???? ????”?: “… ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????” (?????? ????? ??’ ?”?).
????? ??? ????? ????? ????”?: “????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ???”? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????????” (???? ??”? ????? ??? ????”?, ??? ????? ??? ????????).
????? ??? ???? ?????? ????”?: “?????? ???? ??? ???” (?????? ?????, ???? ??’ ??”?),
??”? ??? ???: “???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ????????” (?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ?’).
??”? ??? ??????: “?? ???? ???? ??????” (??”? ??’ ?”?, ??”? ?? ??”? ??’ ?”?).
????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????”?: “?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????” (??? ????? – ???? ????? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ????”? “??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?????, ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ?? ?????, ?????? ?????” (???? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ????? ????). “????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????” (?????? ???? ??? ??? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????, ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????”?: “????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????’ ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????, ????? ?????” (??”? ????? ??? [???”?] – ???? ????”? ?????? ????”?, ??’ ??”?. ???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???”? ??????? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??”?).
????? ??? ??? ??????? ????”?: “????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???… ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???”?, ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???” (?????? ??????? ?”? ??’ ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??”? ???????).
????? ??? ?????? ???? ????”?: “… ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????, ????? ????? ????? ???” (?????? ???? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ????? ????? ????”?: “?? ??????? ?? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ????” (???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ?????).
??? ?????? ??? ????”?: “??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????” “… ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????… ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’. ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????” (???”? ?”? ?”? ??’ ?”?). “???? ???? 2004 ?????? ????? (?????? British Medical Journal 04/328:1519) ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????? ???????. ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???????” (???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ??? ????????? ????”?: “?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???”? ?’ ??? ????????? ????”? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”?, ???? ???? ?????? ??? (???”? ?”? ??’ ??) ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?’ ???”?, ????? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? (???? ???”?) ??? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? “??? ????? ???” ??????? ??????, ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??”? ‘??????? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ???, ??”? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????’ ??”?” (??”? ???? ???????? ??”? ??”? ????? ??, ???? ????? ??????, ???”?, ??’ 67 ??”? ???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
??”? ????? ?????: “?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????” (?”? ??’ ???”?).
????? ??? ??? ???? ????”?: “????”? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????????” (???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ????? ?”?).
????? ??? ???? ??????? ????”?: “????: ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???”??
?????: ?? ???? ????” (???? ?? ??’ ?”?).
Guy chills or whatever other masculine emotional fantasy, it’s nothing a chacham, (whut?), would be proud of.
“Vayechkam … Afilu Min Hashotim” but in this case I think lakewhut is using empirical knowledge. At least, don’t be proud of it.
“The Penei Yehoshua says that smoking is healthy. Who are we to argue with the Gedolei Achronim?”
The Pnei Yehosuah (Shabbos ??:) says
???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ????
1) Rav Shlomo Zalman (????? ????, ???? ????? ?”?, ?’ ?”?) says that we follow the doctors of our times over previous generation’s doctors such as the Rambam.
2) The P’nei Yehoshua only says ????.
3) The Pnei Yehoshua is talking about the sugyah of ???? ??? on ??? ???, where the criteria relevant has to do with the REASON the person is doing it and not the actual RESULT.
This is why the Pnei Yehoshua says ???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ???? which has nothing to do with the actual effect.
4) Did you ever here of ???? ??????? Every single one of today’s Gedolei Haposkim, without fail, assume the veracity of the dangers of smoking if you read in their seforim!
????’ ?”?
??? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????
It’s important to note that there is a lack of understanding as to what hashgacha means. Regardless of the machlokes regarding hashgacha, all beleive Hashem constantly creates everything and knows everything. See Rambam Yesodei Hatorah 2:9
?? ??????? . . ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????’ ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????
This has nothing to do with the Rambam’s shitah of hashgacha in animals in Moreh 3:17.
Czar- in Brisk they don’t say conjecture.
A sociable highly intelligent friend of mine sat, in BMG’s dining room, at different tables every meal . He said the ToMo table was the smartest then came Mir and afterwards Brisk.
It must be stated the above isn’t such a chidush; To-mo guys in BMG fought the flow twice. Most of them come from bakrounds less yesheevis than ToMo and most of ToMo dose’nt go to lakewood.
Similarly but to a lesser degree, bochurim from the Mir who previously came from a yeshivah without a high representation in lakewood (if not they’d usually be at their original yeshivah’s respective tables) are also more likely to have come to NMG out of their own volition than by following the flow.
more importantly, the above friend also told me there is a more acute direct relationship between the incidence of hasmadah and midos among bochurim from the Mir than the Brisk yeshivos. (He’s from the latter.)
To sam4321 and Toi Shruikin:
??? ?????”? (??”? ?????? ??’ ?): …????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????, ??”? ???? ???? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????
??? ??? ????? ???? (??”? ??’ ? ??) “??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ????”? ?”? ???’ ?????.”
??????? ????? (???’ ????”?, ??’ ? ??) ??? “???’ ???”? ????”? (??’ ????) [????] ????? ??? ???? ??? [-??????] ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??”? ????”? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? [????? ???? ???”?].”
What more do you need to understand that we don’t need a Mesorah for t’cheiles and that it’s not ???? the way you understand it.
Rav Nisson Kaplan from the Mir gave a shiur saying that the proof points to the Murex Trunculus being the ?????, however the Gedolim didn’t accept it. http://www.tekhelet.com/mml-RavKaplan-I.html.
However it’s important to point out that most gedolim who actually looked through the facts wear ???? and are very positive about other people wearing ???? as well (i.e. Rav Belsky, Rav Elya Ber, Rav Moshe Mordechai Karp Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg etc).
Rav Shlomo Zalman wrote a letter about ???? a copy is posted on:
http://www.tekhelet.info/111037/????-????-????????
15 years ago Rav Feivel Cohen sent a letter to Rav Elyashiv asking being that:
1:
there is nothing to lose by wearing fake ????
2:
“????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????”
would it then be ???? to wear the dye?
Rav Elyashiv responded that being that this is the 3rd proposal ???? we don’t have to belive the ??????.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50106&pgnum=4
It’s important to point out Rav Elyashiv was addressing Rav Feivel Cohen’s question about ?????? ???????, not the specific proofs for the murex trunculus (Rav Feivel Cohen said that at the time he didn’t even know the arguments and it certainly not part of his question).
ItcheSrulik the ???”? blasted the ???”? for arguing the way he did on the ??”?.
Regardless, a ????? is different than arguing.
“the chazon ish had a shitah that you cant follow a halachah if you were m’ayain properly and disagree. He holds that you cant use any metal, even nails, to keep a succah together, even though there is a Ritva that says b’feirush that you can, and the bais yosef paskens like that ritva.”
Actually the Chazon Ish’s own sucah was NOT a “Chazon Ish scuah”. He only presented another tzad in the sugya, he didn’t argue. However the Sridei Aish writes that it was “b’rov chasidaso” that the Chazon Ish did not argue on Rishonim.
????? ??? ??”? ?”? ?”? ??? ? says we can argue on some Rishonim with proper rayos. However he rarely dose so himself.
The Ravad’s in the Rambam’s hakdama writes “
??? ???? ??? ????, ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ???? ???????, ????? ?????? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ??????? ????? ???, ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??. ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ????? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ???? ???? ????.”
The Yam Shel Shlomo writes in one of his hakdamos that while it’s clear that the Rishonim were bigger he’s upset people stopped arguing and says they should. Needless to say the ?? ?? ???? was not ?????.
“the chazon ish had a shitah that you cant follow a halachah if you were m’ayain properly and disagree. He holds that you cant use any metal, even nails, to keep a succah together, even though there is a Ritva that says b’feirush that you can, and the bais yosef paskens like that ritva.”
Actually the Chazon Ish’s own sucah was NOT a “Chazon Ish scuah”. He only presented another tzad in the sugya, he didn’t argue. However the Sridei Aish writes that it was “b’rov chasidaso” that the Chazon Ish did not argue on Rishonim.
????? ??? ??”? ?”? ?”? ??? ? says we can argue on some Rishonim with proper rayos. However he rarely dose so himself.
The Ravad’s in the Rambam’s hakdama writes “
??? ???? ??? ????, ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ???? ???????, ????? ?????? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ??????? ????? ???, ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??. ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ????? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ???? ???? ????.”
The Yam Shel Shlomo writes in one of his hakdamos that while it’s clear that the Rishonim were bigger he’s upset people stopped arguing and says they should. Needless to say the ?? ?? ???? was not ?????.
Jothar you say there are serious questions on the murex.
Bring them on!
You say “how can the Jews have lost a process that their neighbors next door were still using?” see Codex Justinianus see 4:40:1 in which the Roman empire banned purpura dye to laymen at the same period in which tcheiles was lost to the jews (bet. Rabanan Savorai and early Geonim).
You say “the latest archaeological evidence shows a darker techeiles color than what is being use” see Radvaz(??? ??”?)that the strength of the dye isn’t ????. Besides, what dose one peice of cloth found whith blue murex dye have to do with the halachic requirements of tcheiles?
You say “The dye from murex trunculus changes color depending on exposure to sun. It can have many shades.” True as the Tosfos Hashalem (?’ ???? ?”? ????? ????) brings a midrash that says that different dyes are made from the chilazon, however chazal say the color of tcheiles is indistinguishable from kala ilan, thus we know it’s exact color. The shade however is not ???? as I wrote above.
RT murex dye is dibromoindigo before it is exposed to sunlight or boiled. Regardless, blue murex dye is undistinguishable from indigo.
RT that’s why I quoted the Chazon Ish that the din is only refering to the strings that are not in place of tcheiles.
RT: the halacha is ????? can be from any color (??”? ??”? ??’ ? ???”? ??). Even according to the Rishonim who hold it must be the color of the beged it’s only for the strings that would have been white when there was techeles ( ???? ??? ? ?? ????)
John Doe said:
Simple question. How come the leading Poskim, Gedolim, and Admorim of our time don’t wear it if it is the read deal.
Some names (no order whatsoever) – please feel free to add to them:
Rav Chaim Kanievsky (He wrote in a letter that he’s somaich on his shver and Rebeim for this.)
Rav Elyashiv (He almost always paskins relies on what other people tell him for the “metzius”‘ as he said if he would have to research all the facts himself he wouldn’t be able to pasken at all. He wrote a teshuva (???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ?) on the question posed by Harav Feival Cohen asking if the fact that ?????? say that something is ????, disregarding the actual “rayayos”, is a good reason to wear.
??? ????”? responded that being this is the 3rd conclusion they have no ??????. His ????? were asked about what this third ???? was (Rav Herzog never actually reached any conclusions; he toyed with the janthina however concluded it wasn’t it, because among other things it couldn’t produce dye. See ????? ?????? ????? ??’ ?????) the response was Dr. Saul Kaplan from Rechovot, an american “hippy” who claims Rabbi Nach-man helped him produce a blue dye from the janthina however refuses to release his process lest he lose his patent.)
Rav Wosner (rumors he weares privtely wears ??”?)
Rav Aron Leib Shteinman (not a poseik)
Chacham Ovadia Yosef
Rav Dovid Feinstein (he said you need a mesora, however when asked if he could be ?????, he asked a talmid who was already ????? he told him it wasn’t worthwhile based on Rav Elyashiv.)
Rav Reuven Feinstein (said he doesn’t know the topic.)
Bobover Rebbe (both)
Satmar Rebbe (both)
Gur Rebbe
Belz Rebbe
Viznits Rebbe (both)
Rachmanstrivka Rebbe (both)
Rav Shmuel Aurbach (acc. to a tamid he wers one privately)
Rav Yaakov Hillel (said Arizal says can’t have it today)
Rav Dovid Abuchatzeira
Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg (not on even ONE of his 300 pairs of Tzitzis)(dose wears one acc. to Rav Nisson Kaplan’s techeles shiur)
Stolin Rebbe
Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva (all 4) (Rav Makiel said he doesn’t wear because his father didn’t but volunteered that it’s not a good reason because he didn’t have the murex. When asked again he said doesn’t know the inyanim)
Lakewood Mashgiach (says we need a mesora)
Rav Shlomo Miller (wrote a teshuva: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/miller.pdf
see the response by ????? ????? ?? ???’ ????: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/tavger_miller_2.pdf )
Rav Gamliel Rabinovitch (owns a pair)
Chasidus Chabad
Rav Herschel Shachter (wrote there’s a chiyuv to wear in his sefer ???? ????)
Rav Yisroel Belskey (He wears and tells whoever is able to to go through the sugia themself)
Rav Yechezkel Roth (owns a pair hearsay)
Rav Chaim Epstein (says he doesn’t do wht his father didn’t. ??? It doesn’t make sense & was probably just to push the guy away)
Rav Aaron Feldman
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (Says he doesn’t kow the topic)
Rav Fishel Hershkowitz
Rav Aaron Schecter (Says he heard the proof’s strong but we must have a psak from ????”? ?????? for such a great change)
Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel (Wears ?????? as a ?????, doesn’t like when you ask him so ask people slose to him)
Recently niftar gedolim:
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz (not a posek
Rav Koppleman same
Rav Menashe Klein
Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel dito