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SJ: you’re right, I don’t know where you live. Monroe, Kiryas Joel, Monsey, Stamford Hill, Antwerp or Brooklyn make more sense for the likes of you, as opposed to somewhere like Y-lm, Bnei Brak or Kiryat Sefer. Go ahead and correct me.
My criticism of you is not without basis or merit. Every single criticism others have made of you and your opinions are exactly why I just told you to shut it already. But also bizui talmidei chachamim and whole litany of aveiros associated with lashon hara. I don’t need to rehash them.
You’re really fast to call people names and hurt insults, but this is the internet and you can easily hide behind a screen. If I’m an evil person, you don’t know what evil – or a truly bad person – is.
Agree with YYA. These arguments are purposeless.
SJ: Just give it a rest already. It appears people are getting sick of you and your cronies non-stop hijacking of threads with your cries of “Gevalt! Zionism!”. And anyway, you don’t live in Israel, so your opinion is completely irrelevant whinging.
@YYA – That’s really accurate. And quite funny.
@AAQ – YYA and Yankel are right about the HCJ.
The HCJ – by way of Aharon Barak and his cronies – seized power it had no right to. The HCJ is a massive protexia racket (to the point of children of justices doing their legal internships with fellow justices); it inserts itself into things it has no business being involved in, among many other things.
The whole point of the judicial reform was to take power away from the HCJ and put it back in line with the other parts of the government. And unsurprisingly, considering how involved the bar association is with judicial appointments, most lawyers in this country were against the reform (I personally know several – and it is very clear that the average Israeli doesn’t truly understand what separation of powers means, or they would be protesting the HCJ).
@YYA – We do.
I was trying to be melamed zechus.
Just throwing this in for a second to correct ujm, despite it probably being a waste of my time:
First, Let me be extremely clear: Any twisting of what I have to say by ujm and my lack of a response should not be taken as me admitting that his is right. It is not. I am simply refusing to engage with an individual who questioned my yichus in a public forum and was slapped down for it, and who additionally is the worst troll on this forum.
In no way is what I’m about to say making a statement that JTS was a good place overall. It was initially – when Sephardic Hakhamim, and specfically Sephardic Hakhamim were at the helm. It was no different than YU. It may have stayed that way had Sephardim remained in control. Once Ashkenazim took over, specifically after Louis Finkelstein, it very quickly in went downhill. It *may* have been okay while Lieberman, Dimitrovsky and Faur were around. Those three were probably the last bastions of actual Orthodoxy at JTS (Weiss Halivni barely counts as Orthodox). Once they were gone, that was it.
ujm declared Lieberman, Faur etc. apikorsim simply because of their affiliation with JTS. Education would remedy this – even just reading publicly accessible resources like Wikipedia or simple Google searches.
My point:
1) For most of the 1900s, the overhwleming majority of American Jews were part of the Conservative movement. Orthodoxy was relatively small. Reform Judaism wasn’t as large either. Historical documentation shows this. It cannot be denied just like the reality is that the European Shtetl was an extremely difficult place to live despite Artscroll and other publishers’ attempts to romanticize it.
2) It is likely that Lieberman and those with his background level were – like AAQ very correctly stated – trying to literally conserve some form of what would be called traditional/orthodox Judaism – because it was at risk of going extinct in the USA. Again, this is plainly obvious considering the churban in Europe, the lack of powerful Orthodox Jewish institutions at that time and the general refusal of Orthodoxy to transplant itself to the USA. (I’m not questioning the Rabbonim of that era – I’m pointing out reality and its consequences.)
3) In hindsight, Lieberman was fighting a losing battle – as were his colleagues. That’s obvious.
4) Lieberman – for all his shortcomings – was not an apikoros. He was most definitely orthodox in practice in belief and would not deviate from halacha. He prohibited the conservative prayer book; he made sure the mechitza stayed up in JTS, he certainly opposed the ordination of women – among many other things. This also applies to other figures at JTS at the same time – such as Faur, who also most definitely was not an apikoros by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyone who has read anything either of those two individuals have written (or the others) knows this because it’s plainly obvious. There’s no shittuf, krumkeit, avoda zara in either individual’s writings, just like there isn’t anything krum about Rav Kook’s writings, despite certain individuals claiming as such without ever having cracked one of Rav Kook’s sefarim.
Should they have all moved to YU? Yes.
@YYA – I got the point and don’t disagree. The organizations get confused all the time.
I was merely pointing out that NK would have more backing from larger swaths of the Orthodox Jewish community if they completely changed direction and tune, focusing on those issues mentioned rather than denouncing the State, especially together with people who would absolutely murder Jews if they could get away with it.
“BUT zionists aren’t WORRIED about kurais or mass death. They think it is honorable for jewish boys to die en masse for their political state. Thats how they worship their god. That’s what their dati leumi priests teach them.”
This is pure slander and you know it.
Stop calling RZ Rabbonim by terms such as “priests”.
@AAQ – Despite my disagreements with YYA and Yankel about the IDF and the RZ Tzibbur viewing IDF service as a net positive, Yankel is correct: Chilonim, and in particular the tzonbonim and progressives in the Merkaz – absoutely view the RZ Tzibbur as nothing more than cannon fodder. This has been brought up several times over the last two years in various RZ forums.
What to do about it is another story altogether and is something I’m quite frankly only willing to discuss with people who actually live in Israel.
HaKatan: I didn’t say anything about omissions. Your answer is a non-answer – exactly what I expected from you.
” NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues.”
Protesting over violations of Halacha is something I disagree with strictly because I view it as a waste of time. You’re not going to convince Chilonim – especially adamant secularists – to keep Shabbos or anything else by protests, or any other measures for that matter. But at least it’s a cause most Orthodox Jews can get behind.
Small one:
Again: I have never doubted the existence of the oaths, that’s clear from the Gemara. You are choosing to ignore the fundamental Halachos and principles of what may or may not be used for Halachik rulings in the name of ideology. Those principles and Halachos make it quite easy to “upshlug” the polemic you treat as more important than our sacred books.
The oaths are not Le-Halacha in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya. Anyone who knows Arabic – which you very clearly don’t – can plainly see they are used rhetorically and not as binding Halacha.
I agree, no Orthodox Jew should invalidate any Gemara nor mislead other Jews about Halacha. No Orthodox Jew should be invoking Midrash Aggada as binding Halacha. Orthodox Jews with a proper education know the difference between Midrash Aggada and Midrash Halacha. They know Aggada is not to be interpreted, it is not Le-Halacha, it is to be taken at face value and at most serves an Asmachta for halachos, whereas Midrash Halacha is in fact binding and is treated very differently. Orthodox Jews with that education also know that Halacha is not typically dervied from Nevi’im or Kesuvim, certainly not a Megilla that was nearly left out of our canon together with Koheles. This is obvious and has been so for thousands of years.
@Yankel: כל מילה בסלע. They absolutely would.@HaKatan – Nice riduculously pathetic attempt at humor.
More like to get you and your two compadres to stop treating a polemic mussar sefer built entirely on an invalid premise like it’s more important than our actual canon – you know, Tanach, Mishna, Talmud, etc., and get with the program.
Or at least to stop trashing other Orthodox Jews who disagree with you on one issue.
Mods: Please remove HaKatan from this board. His constant need to turn every single issue into Zionism – and inserting Zionism everywhere he can – prevents any substantive discussion of other issues and far more interesting subjects.
@Debater – If you would like to read a good short history of religious zionism, read the book I mentioned earlier in this thread, even though it’s in Hebrew.
All of the Anti-Zionists (and by extension Non-Zionists as well as Zionists who don’t live in Israel) should read it before saying the things they do about Religious Zionism. However, I doubt any will.
Why are we starting yet another thread about this subject?
To everyone here: You’re not going to be able to talk any sense into HaKatan and his ilk.
It’s best we just let these threads die.
“Democracy is not a Jewish concept. Judaism supports a monarchy that’s a Jewish theocracy.”
Keep telling yourself that. You know it’s not nearly as simple as that.
Yes, this thread absolutely needs to be shut down.
I’ll read the book.
Please read החוט המשולש by Yair Sheleg, also in Hebrew.
@YYA: Well said.
HaKatan:
Thanks for a real reference.
My response:
1) The question on Mi Yodeya is clearly answered that this “Mesorah” cannot be verified or fully attributed to whom you claim said it, as it could have been either the Vilna Gaon himself or Rav Chaim Volozhin.
2) The statement says nothing about the State of Israel you R”L wish to to see nuked into oblivion. It is about what will have to be dealt with in that final exile – rampant assimilation, intermarriage and a comfortable existence, one that led at one poster here to state that even after Moshiach comes, he will will not move to EY and will just only fly in for Chagim, as well as many, many others to say they would never move to EY because America is their home, not EY. Which leads to the question of just how much of American Jewry will last through the exile as Jews, and how many will assimilate and be lost.
3) What’s your point beyond more kvetching about Zionism?
@somejew –
Very briefly because I don’t have a lot of time for this (I could write far more but will not be doing so), and I will not be responding to you until I have time, which could be in a few months from now:
1) All I was doing was explaining Chaim’s broadside against you, why it most unfortunately was justified and why you are so difficult to have a conversation with. It’s a חבל that you couldn’t figure that out and resorted to accusations that are not true in the slightest.
2) I can say the same about you and your lack of understanding of how Batei Din, Serara, Pesak Halacha, Hora’ah, Takanos, etc. work.
3) The conversations about RZ are most definitely not meaningful and they do not do anything other than reveal reciprocal sinas chinam.
Actual heresies would be: (1) Chabad’s quasi-deificiation of their long-deceased Rebbe; (2) the tendency to regard Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidish Rebbes as pope-like figures who can perform miracles, if not outright deification of those Rabbonim; (3) praying to ספירות, which is minimally שיתוף if not outright polytheism and idol worship; (4) תפילות like מכניסי רחמים which pray to Angels, not HKB”H; (5) the Zohar implying that HKB”H has a wife and children. You could possibly also include the Zohar issuing Halachik rulings clearly in violation of regular Halacha. Shall I continue?
4) If you bothered to learn the Sefarim written by RZ Rabbonim, you would realize that you’re wrong. ויואל משה is one of the best polemics ever written against secularism and indeed it is food for thought on ideological terms, but it is not a halachik work, it should not be considered such and it does not argue effectively against RZ.
5) Those arguments that supposedly dismantle RZ are weak, especially when the underpinnings of the entire book rest on Aggada – which is not used to issue Halachik rulings and is not to be interpreted, but taken at face value, something you should know.
6) You want Torah arguments? Fine. Here we go:
a) Aggada. Read what I said above. That is a powerful Halachik argument, if not a Torah argument altogether. The entirety of ויואל משה is based on something that לפי הלכה is not to be used for exactly what the Satmar Rebbe uses it for. From that it is absolutely possible to argue that ויואל משה in fact teaches Torah in violation of Halacha. Unless you want to tell me that ויואל משה is in fact an ideological argument, in which case RZ argues against it. But it that case, ויואל משה is not Halachik in any sense of the word. Perhaps an Asmachta, but probably not even that.
b) You clearly do not understand Rambam’s use of the three oaths, its context and why it was stated in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya, just like HaKatan doesn’t get it either (and never responded to me about it). Read Mori Qafih’s (R. Yosef Kapach) edition of Iggeros HaRambam. There is nothing halachik about their mention, it is rhetoric. Reading the original in Arabic makes that patently obvious. The only halacha in that letter is in fact guidelines for dealing with a false messiah – in Yemen, not elsewhere. Those were specific circumstances. It cannot be extrapolated to today in reference to RZ.
b) Our מסורת – וזה נכתב בתורתינו הקדושה בעצמה: Any הוצאת דיבה about ארץ ישראל, which today means the State of Israel, and definition does include Zionism, leads to severe punishment. It happened when Berlin was declared ירושלים, it happened when other cities were declared ירושלים as well. Unlike the Satmar Rebbe’s hatred and short temper, this is an actual part of our מסורה. That is also a Torah argument and one that in our most sacred book meant the death of an entire generation and HKB”H killing 12 leaders immediately. By arguing against RZ and Z in general, ויואל משה is in fact an argument against ארץ ישראל in the modern era. There’s a reason why Satmar is often to referred to acting like the Meraglim.
c) The Satmar Rebbe only had authority over his commnunity. He did not have any authority over anyone outside, certainly not over the thousands who rejected his Shita outright. This is an actual הוראה issue and it most definitely applies. The RZ community has never accepted his authority. On top of that, his בית דין is not the only one in New York or in Israel. It therefore cannot claim sole abiltiy to issue תקנות of any kind because that requires the presence of one בית דין in a city. Thus, ויואל משה cannot be binding לפי הלכה.
d) Religious Zionism does not consider Moshiach to have come. Certainly this is the case post-expulsion from Gaza. You do not see anyone RZ not fasting on Tisha B’av or any of the other fast days. You do not see them erasing Selichos, Avinu Malkeinu or any other part of the traditional Tefillos said in mourning for the Beis HaMikdash and Yerushalayim.
e) Religious Zionism does not worship Herzl, Ben Gurion, Netanyahu or the State. They never have.
f) The prayer for the State does not say the Geulah has arrived. It says the extreme very possible beginning. Those qualifiers of ראשית צמיחת actually mean something.
7) That is Rav Kook to you. I will insist and demand that you show Der Rav the same respect you show the Satmar Rebbe.
8) The Satmar Rebbe was in fact wrong about Rav Kook. Your blind hatred and refusal to do any sort of serious research about the issue demonstrates your ignorance.
Be well.
Askanim should not exist. Period.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in galus for Torah is in America.”Again, provide a documented source.
I don’t believe Chaim is part of the RZ Tzibbur. I think he has RZ leanings.
You speak of fear about opening certain sefarim. I have learned VaYoel Moshe, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch, as well as Rav Kook. There is nothing in RZ that violates anything within any form of Orthodox Judaism. Period. You don’t know anything about RZ because you won’t study anything by Rav Kook, Rav Reines, Rav Alkalai, Rav Mohliver, etc. You instead project from ideologically secularist Zionism onto RZ, when they are categorically different. The practical Halachik differences, as I have said, are a couple of Mi-Sheberachs (which per Halacha must be said in Israel by all shuls, including Charedi) and Hallel on two days a year. The philosophical difference is how to deal with the State and its modern institutions. Anything else that differs is cultural. But I’ve said this all before; you just don’t want to accept any of it due to intransigence.
On the other hand, I can point out a great many number of things that Chassidim do that are flagrant violations of Halacha and/or are are almost forms of idol worship or shittuf, if not being polytheistic in nature and straight idol worship.
You’re getting hit with personal attacks because quite frankly, you’re what we would call – for lack of a better term – a grade-a <expletive>, and an intentionally ignorant one at that. You’re divisive, you drive Sinas Chinam, you try to make up Halachik excuses for your behavior. You are being called out for that, as well as the following:
1) You are a Chassid (I suspect Satmar, Vitznitz or Munkacz, since those three groups are the most vitriolic in their hatred of anything supporting the State of Israel, or even Zionism in any form) who cannot get it through his head that other valid Orthodox derachim do not and will not take a Chassidish Rebbe’s word to be immutable law from Har Sinai. We’ll ask our Rabbonim about these questions, thank you very much. Which also leads to a point I made a few months ago: The Satmar Rebbe did not have any authority outside his community, especially over the great number of Jews who have consistently rejected his authority and his sefer. You also refuse to address the fundamental questions I’ve raised against Vayoel Moshe. You just respond that I’m a heretic, despite the legitimacy of the questions being raised.
2) You are completely ignorant regarding RZ. I explained why above.
3) You are incredibly disrespectful when it comes to RZ Rabbonim, with you using epithets that should only be used for actual Resha’im and not even using terms of respect and authority that were earned. Rav Kook is not one of them, and you are grade-a schmuck (and I mean the Yiddish definition) for continuing to use those epithets. (The next time you refuse to call Rav Kook with his title, I will ask the moderators to delete your disrespectful posts like I’ve done in the past.)
There’s a reason why I’ve been telling you for at least two years to give it a rest and get a clue. Think about it. Read an actual history of RZ and and accrate biography of Rav Kook.
I’ll stop there.
@YYA – Obviously.
@AAQ – Here’s the thing: There is no actual change in leadership. Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood and all the other various jihadist groups have the same beliefs and mindset. It’s an issue with Islam itself.
@YYA:
“The Chareidim are the Zhid of Israel, and Israel is the Zhid of the world.”
I don’t agree with the first part of this unless this is from the perspective of Chilonim, but the second part is definitely true.
“For all the armchair Kanoyim in the room trying to find sources to expand the ranks of “Kofrim B’Ikkar”
That describes somejew and HaKatan perfectly.
@YYA – Don’t worry. HaKatan isn’t making Aliyah anytime within this lifetime. He’ll live anywhere but Israel. Even if he doesn’t say it, it’s plainly obvious from his posts.
@AAQ – I live in Israel, we’ve seen the results of these situations repeatedly. We know what will happen.
Unfortunately, with international politics being as they are, there really is no solution.
@OP:
I made Aliyah and agree with YYA.
Let them stay in the US. Moshiach hasn’t come anyway and most people wouldn’t accept a Moshiach who doesn’t look exactly like them, which means nothing is changing.akuperma:
“if non-zionist Hareidim grow in number, they might be able to work out something with the Yismaelim to bring about peace, something the secularists have been unable to do for the last century”If you think this is possible, you very clearly don’t know anything about Islam and Arabs.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA.”Provide a documented source (Sefer, page, footnote, etc.) that can actually be looked up. The phrase “we have a mesorah” isn’t good enough.
What happens is obvious: Hamas rearms and another round of fighting happens sometime in the near future, hopefully without a repeat of what happened two years ago.
We should have wiped everyone in the strip off the map or expelled them to Egypt or Jordan.
HaKatan:
Let’s pull this apart:
“Rabbi Kook was indeed very learned and had certain standards that were extremely high, like tznius, for example”.
First of all, that is Rav Kook to you. We’ll start there. Show the required respect. And yes, Rav Kook followed halacha meticulously, as is well documented.
“He also held that their “State” may not come about through violence and war, which is exactly how it did end up being founded.”
A defensive war. An actual second attempt at full Shmad after the Churban a few years before. Pikuach Nefesh in the most literal form possible. Does Halacha address that? Yes, you kill a rodef, which is exactly what the Arabs were.
“But all of that doesn’t change what the gedolim held of him, as mentioned above. The Chazon Ish also banned the sale of Rabbi Kook’s books, which included at least Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, if not also the others. So, no, that would not fit into the rubric of “hardline chareidi”.”
Works being banned by Rabbonim does not make one not Charedi. You clearly don’t know what Charedi means beyond the cultural trappings of such. If Rav Kook were alive today, he’d be voting for UTJ.
@Avi K – True. However, an issue of Mekor Rishon (Hebrew RZ newspaper, if you’re aware of it) from a year or two ago stated such and provided a documented source of the statement I summarized. Based on that, it does appear that the Hungarian establisment was not prepared for a Litvak to hold any authority over them. But that also reinforces a statement I made in another thread, that these “disputes” and “fights” were largely ideological without real animosity, with the most notable exception who made it personal was a certain Rav Teitelbaum.
@AAQ – I was not writing off REW. I was condemning Askanim – both past and present – for providing disinformation, causing Rabbonim to make statements based on deliberately incorrect or incomplete information and creating rifts that don’t need to exist – such as that between the Charedi and RZ public.
Regarding R Elyashiv and R Kamenetsky – It was disinformation, just like what was done to R Slifkin. I have no doubt regarding that.
@yankel –
HaKatan, in his blindness and hatred, is unwilling to do the research which would reveal Rav Kook to be as hardline Charedi as they got despite being the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi and part of the Rabbanut. Instead, he will argue – as he has in the past -that Rav Kook was powerful and they used those titles because of his position and being intimidated into doing so, not because he actually deserved them.
Which is an absolutely absurd assertion to make and I do not understand HaKatan’s intransigence and unwillingness to do even the most basic research into Rav Kook’s life.
He also will not address the fact that with the exception of the Satmarer, most of these “fights” between the RZ/MO Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur were largely ideological, with neither party having any true animosity/visceral hatred toward the other.
“REW may also have been influenced by courtiers who gave him misinformation.”
This would not surprise me. I suspect many Rabbonim who were opposed to Zionism were fed misinformation – deliberately – by the evil known as Askanim. Especially insofar as Rav Kook is concerned (who today would be considered very Charedi).
And there’s also the Hungarian establishment in the Old Yishuv’s sole objection to Rav Kook being, “He’s a Litvak. We ain’t listening to no Litvak”.
Vezos HaBeracha – Yamim Nora’im
Bereshis – Regular other than last line for each day. Unless it’s the resident Teimani guy reading, in which case he cycles through Teimani, Ashkenazi (Polish), and Edot HaMizrach.
Maftir- Regular@EX-CTL – Florida is either southern New York or northern Cuba so not surprising (I’m kidding). The further north you go in Florida, the more southern it becomes.
Where I come from in the south, a large number of people in almost every single one of the Orthodox Shuls carry.
@Avi K – HaKatan cannot and will not present direct citations that back anything he says. He just provides generally well-known quotations, statements, arguments or vague references to sefarim that support his argument. We can press him all day long about providing sources, he simply won’t do it. Maybe we’ll get a reference to a sefer or a quote from the same 4-5 Rabbonim he likes to quote.
His arguments cannot be taken seriously and should be treated as mere rhetoric.
“I wrote I was uncomfortable davening in shul with the person next to me having a gun.
I consider a shul a place of peace where guns don’t belong.”Then it would a good idea to not walk into Shuls in the southern USA, because there are many people with concealed carry permits and are in fact carrying guns.
@UJM: Negativity toward Zionism by definition includes denigrating the DL Tzibbur despite the very clear differences between DL and secularist Zionism, which is something you engage in on an almost daily basis. Don’t try to pull DARVO again.
As for a thread about me, I’m touched you think I’m that important (I’m really not), but there’s no reason for that. It’s just engaging in actual Lashon Hara 4-5 days before Rosh HaShana. But that’s on you.
As for this site, I’m done. Shana Tova.
@UJM:
Here’s the thing: Words have consequences, whether online or in person. You don’t seem to get that and think that you’re just some anonymous Charedi dude behind a screen. But we know that ex-CTLawyer is an in real life friend of yours. So you’re not.
The blunt truth is that the sheer amount of Lashon Hara, Rechilus and Motzi Shem Ra that you have spewed against both the Dati Leumi (a community that does in fact include me) and Modern Orthodox communities does actually count. You had those thoughts, you wrote them down, you posted them. Ergo you are responsible for them just like I am responsible for whatever I have said. What you wrote/said are absolutely wrongs against those communities and I know this to be true because your vile slander has been seen on Social Media, and I’ve seen the responses.
And yes, you do in fact owe me an in real life apology. You questioned my Yichus. That was not percieved, that was real – especially because you posted it in on a public forum.
So no, you will have to do more.
K’siva V’Chasima Tova.
@UJM – You’re going to have to do better than post on a forum and speak to people in person if you want actual forgiveness.
Obviously.
“The reason that so many go off is, of course, that this is the express purpose of the Zionist army: shmad.”
Don Quixote, the windmills want you to know that they aren’t jousting and the year is no longer 1500. (if you can’t figure out the reference: Stop fighting wars from 100 years ago and get with the program.)
“Please stick to facts and the Torah, not idolatrous insanity.”
Speak for yourself, he who worships the trinity of three Rabbonim rather HaShem Himself.
None of us are buying what you’re selling.
What @Ari Knobler said is true.
This is just plain slander and laughably untrue. For this to be true, thousands would have to be going OTD every year and that just is not true by any stretch of the imagination. The RZ Tzibbur would literally be unable to run a Shul or minyan if this were true, much less the 80 thriving Yeshivot Hesder and the numerous Pre-Army Mechinot.
It is as I have said: Those who go OTD in the Army by and large are those who were looking for an excuse to do so.
This is my final post here for a while because this is admittedly a pointless argument and one I am no longer willing to engage in.
This is not an opinion. From a stricly legal persepctive, the draft is completely legal.
The 1949 Defense Service Law, which predates the now unconstitutional 2002 Tal Law (and by extension the Torato Umanuto Arrangement) by at least 50 years, requires military service of all Israelis. It does not differentiate between Charedim and everyone else. Yes, there was an “agreement/arragement” not to draft Charedim, but an agreement not ensconced in binding law passed by the Knesset is quite frankly worthless. This is the case right now. There is no permanent legislation granting Charedim full, permanent exemption from the IDF service.
From the law on the Knesset website:
“In this Law-
“defence service” means
(a) service in the Regular Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: ‘regular service”);
(b) service in the Reserve Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: reserve service”);
“ordinary resident” means a person whose ordinary place of residence within the territory in which the law of the State of Israel applies;
“person of military age” means an ordinary resident of an age as specified hereunder:
“(a) in the case of a male person – any age from eighteen to forty-nine years inclusive;
(b) in the case of a female person- any age from eighteen to thirty-four years inclusive.The exemptions are:
(1) the mother of a child;
(2) a pregnant woman.
(c) A married woman shall be exempt from the obligations of regular service.
(d) A female person of military age who has declared that reasons of conscience or religious conviction prevent her from serving on defence service, shall, in such manner as shall be prescribed by regulations, be exempted from the obligations of defence service”.The punishment for draft-dodging, per the law is, “imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine not exceeding six hundred pounds or to both such penalties”.
Thus, Charedim are not exempt from service. Yeshiva students are not exempt from service. Hesderniks are not exempt. By law, the only groups with valid exemptions are those with medical conditions (including psychological and psychiatric), Olim and women (Sections 11 and 6 of the law). Based on this law which does in fact remain in effect, IDF service enforcement is not kidnapping. It is arresting those in violation of the law and those violators should be required to serve or produce a valid exemption in order to not serve.
Now, as for the so-called Tal Law: That law was declared discriminatory in 2005/2006, again in 2012 and most recently in 2017, whereupon it was essentially declared unconstitutional. It is a piece of legislation no longer relevant despite what you and I think about the HCJ and their technical ability to declare laws unconstitutional.
There isn’t much else to say about this.
Be well.
@YYA:
1) Are you referrring to the deleted thread about Artscroll’s nasty and uncalled for hatchet job of Hakham Faur? That thread had nothing to do with “Haskhafos of Conservative Judaism” and was about Artscroll’s tendency to call a hagiography a biography, when those are decidedly not the same thing in the slightest. It was also moving away from that hatchet job to Sephardic approaches to Halacha and Aggada, a very tame subject.
(BTW, if you think I’m an OTD Chossid, you’re very far removed from the truth. The correct label would be “Frum without any Mishugassen or idiotic Chumros whatsoever”. I also have zero connection to the Chassidish world.)2) This is true, but I admittedly don’t read the threads about Chabad. I do not believe I have ever been disrespectful vis a vis Satmar. I do wonder if you’re offended by the use of “Shem Resha’im Yirkav” in connection with Rav Kook ZT”L, something somejewiknow used to routinely do until I asked the mods to stop him – which they did, or if your objection only applies to Charedi Rabbonim.
3) This should not have happened, but we all know that the resident notorious troll started all this by questioning my Yichus – an idiotic thing to do – and those threads were largely in response to that. You yourself called out that individual.
4) I don’t disagree that this is wrong and those threads should have been deleted.
One more thing: This is the internet, you cannot easily control what is posted and what isn’t.
And like Smerel, I’m done here for now. There are far too many Sonei Yisrael from the Charedi Tzibbur here who would rather hate on their Dati Leumi and Modern Orthodox brethren than do anything else.
Chiefshmerel provided reliable sources. Newspapers are considered reliable historical sources. Anyone who has taken a history class and done any basic level of historical research knows that. You just don’t like the source because (1) it disputes your incredibly subjectve view of history and (2) the source is not Rabbinic.
@AAQ:
My point is that these arguments are irrelevant.
Sorry, real life interfered.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ. I never disagreed about that.
That being said, you, YYA and I are on opposites of the IDF issue and will not agree. My stance is still that Charedim should serve in the IDF and it is not going to change.
The rabid anti-Zionists here unfortunately do not possess reading comprehension skills. One only needs to read through recent threads concerning Israel, Zionism etc. over the last few months to half-year to see that they do not respond in a material manner when questioned. In particular, despite Yankel and and myself being on opposite sides of the Charedi draft issue, both of us have questioned them on the same grounds repeatedly with no material response. YYA has done so as well.
It doesn’t matter if it was questioning the applicability of the three oaths on Halachic grounds; respectfully questioning the applicability of Vayoel Moshe and such a work having any binding authority upon anyone outside the Rabbinic jurisdiction of its author; respectuflly yet forcefully showing how the RZ Tzibbur is very different from secularist Zionism; and even calling out divisive, bombastic rhetoric 2 days before Tisha B’Av as well as recent threads with bombastic titles for no reason other than to be rude and offensive.
The response has been the same. They repeatedly reference the same three Rabbonim, insist that any works which imply some support for Zionism on any level are intentionally being misinterpreted and misunderstood by their disputants, use Halacha as an excuse for a total lack of Middos, much less basic politeness, and ignore anything they disagree with or cannot respond to.
They also are quite frankly the Yeshivish/Chassidish equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills, meaning that vis a vis Zionism, they are continuing to fight a nearly century old battle now irrelevant. They should be looking at the far more insidious, underlying issue at hand – ideological secularism (a century ago this took the form of Zionism and communism, it is now currently in the form of progressivism and militant antitheism), and joining the RZ Tzibbur in combating that issue which concerns Orthodox Judaism in all its stripes.