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Really? You’re going to my “supposedly questionable” Yichus again? (It’s not at all, you’re just digging for something to go after me over)
So now we have ad hominem attacks as well.
Keep digging yourself into that hole.
Back to the argument at hand: Putting aside internal Jewish and Israeli politics (since you insist on differentiating between the two), your idea is a non-starter from the POV of the Arabs and purely from a Pikuach Nefesh standpoint. You know it and so do I.
ujm: Considering the sheer number of times you, HaKatan and somejew have tried to misinterpret what I say or try to pull DARVO, not to mention engage in intellectual fallacies (most often appeals to authority but also no true scotsman and even Godwin’s Law), don’t complain, troll boy.
HaKatan – Until you prove you and your ilk would not go and spit on soldiers, I have no reason to believe otherwise. You have no chezkas kashrus.
You know what I mean by Am Yisrael. Don’t play games with me.
I got your point. You missed mine, which was:
1) The claim that “Sepharadic Jews lived in paradise”, which is in essence what you argued when you said:
(a) “The Jews under Arab and Muslim rule experienced nothing remotely close to the pograms, tach v’tat, annual Christmas attacks, and the Holocaust that Jews under Christian European control very recently in the last few hundred years through 1945 (people living in our generation) experienced”;
(b) “What I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact”- is not true and you are a liar, and my post demonstrates it clearly;
(c) “Prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims”– is a load of utter BS (other than perhaps in Fatimid Egypt and some parts of the Ottoman Empire). The fact that you partially retracted your own statements doesn’t derogate from my own argument.
2) Your solution is a non-starter. (This thread is quite frankly a waste of space like most of the other ones about the tired subjects of Zionism, whether or not the State of Israel should exist or not, etc.)
As for the rest of your post: Yes, I did copy-paste the list – I never denied it. I even gave the source. It’s a list that makes my point quite effectively. If you know so much more than I do about everything under the sun, prove it. Present your credentials.
Also:
I see you decided to include the Holocaust. Nice try. That’s a form of Godwin’s Law – which by the way, you engaged in when you decided to compare the State of Israel to the Third Reich as a delegitimization tactic (you should be ashamed of yourself for having engaged in Holocaust trivialization by calling the State of Israel a Nazi government, especially as a Frum Jew on a Frum forum). Since you decided to engage in a contest measuring who suffered more despite YYA and myself telling you not to – and now we’re actually doing this (I truly cannot believe we’ve descended to such utterly pathetic depths) because you refuse to back down – we cannot include it because (1) it anhilliated both Sepharadim and Ashkenazim (obviously far more Ashkenazim) and (2) was on a scale completely unprecendented in history and must be in its own category.I will also point out that *you* started this, not me.
ujm – “somejew obviously means he davens for the Hamas sodiers defeat and destruction.”
He said what he means and even clarified a second time. We’re taking him at his word.
I will add the following, something I don’t typically discuss online:
No one with a functional brain is opposed to a non-denominational state, if it is doable. It’s not.
The UN cannot protect us and neither can the rest of the world. Obviously we rely on Hashem, but we also need to protect ourselves. That’s common sense and it’s where the State comes in. However, a non-denominational state can only work under the assumption that prevailing Arab and Islamic attitudes can be checked or changed, and that our broad national interests, especially Torah and Mitzvos, are preserved. My previous post demonstrates that this isn’t the case and likely will not be any time soon. Mizrachi, Sepharadic, Teimani and Maghrebi Jews have endured just as much hardship as Ashkenazim; based on that post, a non-denominational state – which would likely become a Muslim state very quickly due to population – would not be a net positive for us, to say the very least. Also, a non-denominational state completely ignores the reality of Islamic attitudes toward Jews and our general inabiltiy to get along with each other.
Thus, the status-quo is probably the only workable solution until Mosiach comes, or until such time as Islam goes through a reformation and loses its inborn attitudes. Also, all of Am Yisrael needs to grow up. Meaning: Chilonim move back to religious observance and stop picking stupid and pointless fights over Judaism in the name progressive/lefitst/anti-religious politics; RZ grows a backbone and stops kissing up to Chilonim as well as being a bit more skeptical of the State having its interests in mind; and Charedim contribute the way everyone else does – getting jobs, serving in the army / doing Sherut Ezrachi, etc.
I have more to say about this, but that is the short of it.
UJM: I’m going to be very blunt: I’ve spent more than 10 years studying the Arabic language and Arab culture as well as Judaeo-Arabic and Middle Eastern Jewish history in academic and quasi-academic environments. I speak with experts in this field regularly and my profession requires in-depth knowledge of this area.
When I say you don’t know what you’re talking about, you absolutely don’t.
But you want a list?
Here ya go. This is from Sephardic U.
622–627 Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina; Jewish boys publicly inspected and executed if found
622–634 Extermination of the 14 Arab Jewish tribes
624 Beginning of the elimination of the Jews after the victory of Badr
625 Expulsion of the Jewish clan of Al Nadir
626 Massacre of the Beni Khazradj Jews and division of families and loot
626 Murder of the Jew Kab, leader of the Beni Nadhir and satirist poet, and of his wife who had made fun of Mohammed
626 Expedition against the Jews of Kaihbar
626 Murder on the orders of Muhammad of the Jew Sallam abu Rafi
626 Mohammed had the palm trees of the Jewish oasis Beni Nadhir cut down
626? Expedition against the Jews beni Qoraizha; insulted by Mohammed: “O you, monkeys and pigs…”
626? Massacre of 700 Beni Qoraïzha Jews; bound for three days, then slaughtered above a ditch, with the young boys
627 Elimination of the Jewish Qurayza clan in Medina
627 Massacre of the Jews of Medina; sharing of families and property
628 Submission of the Jews of Wadil Qora
628 Mohammed to the Jews beni Qainoqa: “if you do not embrace Islam, I declare war on you”
628? Attack on the Jews of Khaibar, and torture of prisoners
628? Taking of the Jewish oasis of Fadak as Mohammed’s personal property
629 First massacres in Alexandria, Egypt
630 Submission of the Jews and Christians of Makna, Eilat, Jerba
638 Expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem
640 Expulsion of Jews from Hedjez
643 Expulsion of the Jews from Khaibar by Omar
822–861 Islamic empire adopts a law requiring Jews to wear yellow stars, caliph al-Mutawakkil
940 Beheading of the Jewish exilarch of Baghdad for having sullied the name of Mohammed
945 Assassination by a crowd of fanatics of the last Jewish exilarch of Baghdad
948 Closure of the Jewish theological school of Baghdad “Sora”
1004 Jews and Christians must wear a black turban and sash in Egypt
1009 Jews and Christians in Egypt must wear a cross or bells in the baths
1009 Destruction of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem by the Fatimids
1010 Persecution of Christians, Jews, and Sunnis by the Fatimid caliph Al Hakim
1010–1013 Start of massacre of hundreds of Jews around Cordoba
1016 Persecution of Jews are driven out of Kairouan
1032 5 to 6,000 Jews killed in a riot in Fez and expulsion of survivors
1040 Beheading of the Jewish theologian Gaon Chizkiya, head of a Talmudic school
1057 Capture and pillage of Kairouan by the Hilalian tribes; expulsion of Jews and certain Muslims
1066 Massacre of thousands of Jews in Granada in Muslim-occupied Spain
1073 Start of persecution against Jews and Christians by the Turks in Jerusalem
1106 Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakech decrees the death penalty for any local Jew, including his Jewish doctor, and his military general
1127 In Morocco, after the failure of the prophetic movement of the Jewish messiah Moshe Dhery, wave of persecutions and forced conversions
1142 Start of persecution against the Jews by the Almohads; massacre in Tlemcen, Bougie, Oran
1145 Jews of Tunis must choose between conversion and exile
1146 Capture of Meknes by the Almohads; persecution of the Jews
1147 Almohad invasion of Spain: expulsion of Jews or forced conversions
1147 Capture of Marrakech by the Almohads; persecution of the Jews
1147 Start of Almohad persecutions against the Jews of North Africa
1148 Almohads of Morocco give Jews the choice of converting to Islam or being expelled
1148 Start of the exodus of Maimonides fleeing the intolerance of the Almohads
1148 Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam or being expelled
1152 Advent of Abd el Moumin in Morocco; choice for Christians and Jews between conversion or death
1159 Controversy between Maimonides and the rabbi of Fez on the attitude towards forcible converts
1160 Capture of Ifriqiya by the Moroccans of Abd el Moumen; Jews and Christians must choose between death and conversion; Jews are converted by force and superficially
1165 Chief rabbi of the Maghreb burned alive; The Rambam fled to Egypt
1165 Flight of Maimonides to Egypt to escape the Almohads
1165–1178 Yemen: Jews throughout the country were given the choice (under the new constitution) to convert to Islam or die
1171 In Egypt, decree recalling obedience to ordinances concerning the submission of Jewish and Christian infidels under penalty of death
1184 Almohads impose distinctive signs on Christians and Jews in Spain
1198 Forced conversion of the Jews of Aden
1220 Tens of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for the Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1232 Massacre of the Jews of Marrakech
1266 Tomb of the Patriarchs of Hebron is converted into a mosque and closed to Jews and Christians
1267 Mamluk Sultan Baybars forbids Jews from entering the vault of the Patriarchs in Hebron; the ban ended exactly five centuries later in 1967
1270 Sultan Baibars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for this purpose; but at the last moment he repented and instead demanded a heavy tribute, in which many perished.
1270 Widespread segregation of Jews in Andalusia
1276 2nd pogrom of Fez, Morocco
1284 In Baghdad, the Jewish doctor Ibn Kammuna died locked in a trunk after writing “a book in which he showed irreverence towards the prophecies”; he escapes a lynching and is threatened with the stake
1291 Death of the converted Jew Sad al Dawla, grand vizier of Argun Khan in Iran, a rank which provoked the anger of the Muslim court
1291 Forced conversion of the Jews of Tabriz in Persia
1301 Start of the persecution of the Jews in Egypt
1318 Beheading of Rashid aldin Tabid, historian and Persian minister, Jewish convert who provoked the anger of Muslim elites
1318 Forced conversion of the Jews of Tabriz in Persia
1333 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1333 The traveler Ibn Battuta complains that Djenkchi Khan djagataï allows Jews and Christians to repair their places of worship
1334 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1344 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1351 Trial of Jews (in Cairo?) accused of desecration, who must choose between conversion or death
1385 Massacres du Khorasan, Iran
1390 Foundation of the first Jewish ghetto in Fez
1391 In Morocco, persecution of Jews from Spain
1438 Creation of ghettos for Jews in the cities of Morocco, under the name “mellah”
1438 1st massacres in the Mellah ghetto, North Africa
1448 In Egypt, decree recalling obedience to ordinances concerning the submission of Jewish and Christian infidels under penalty of death
1450 Trial of Jews accused of having written the name of Mohammed in their synagogue in Fustat; they are converted by force
1465 In Fez, pogroms after the discovery in the Jewish quarter of the tomb of the city’s founder, a descendant of Mohammed…; Jews are forced to move to the ghetto (11 Jews left alive)
1492 Jewish community of Touat in Morocco is massacred; synagogues destroyed
1516 Algerian Jews receive the official status of dhimmi from the Ottomans; certain colors are forbidden to them (red and green); they are not allowed to ride horses or carry weapons; they must pay the discriminatory tax; their representative is ritually slapped during the delivery of tribute to the authorities
1517 1st pogrom in Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1517 1st pogrom of Hebron, Ottoman Palestine
1521 Expulsion of Jews from Belgrade by the Ottomans
1524 Expulsion of Jews from Buda in Hungary by the Ottomans
1535 Pogrom then expulsion of Jews from Tunisia
1554 Looting and persecution against the Jewish population of Marrakech by the Turks who took the city
1574 Civil war in Morocco between three claimants; Jews are victims of all camps
1577 Passover massacre, Ottoman Empire
1588–1629 Pogroms of Mahalay, Iran
1604 Start of a period of famine, violence and forced conversions of the Jewish population of Fez: 2000 conversions in 2 years
1608 Persecution for two years of the Jews of Taroudat by the Berbers
1622 Forced conversion of the Jews of Persia
1630–1700 Yemenite Jews were considered “impure” and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obliged to humble themselves before a Muslim, walk on the left side and greet him first. They could not build houses taller than those of a Muslim or ride a camel or horse, and when riding a mule or donkey, they had to sit on the side. When entering the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his shoes and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Muslim youths, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself.
1650 Jews from Tunisia are deported to special neighborhoods called “hara”
1650 Forced conversion of the Jews of Persia, under Shah Abbas II
1656 Jews expelled from Isfahan in Iran
1660 2 pogroms in Safed and Tiberias, Ottoman Palestine
1670 Expulsion of Mawza, Yemen
1676 Expulsion of Jews from Sanaa in Yemen
1678 Forced conversion of Jews in Yemen
1679–1680 Sanaa massacres, Yemen
1700 Massacre of Jews in Yemen
1747 Massacres de Mashhad, Iran
1758 Executions of a Jew and an Armenian in Constantinople for violation of the legislation on the clothing of infidels
1770 Expulsion of Jews from Jeddah in Arabia
1785 Tripoli Pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790 Destruction of most of the Jewish communities in Morocco
1790–92 Pogrom of Tetouan, Morocco (Jews of Tetouan undressed and lined up)
1800 New decree adopted in Yemen, prohibiting Jews from wearing new or good clothes. Jews were forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were sometimes rounded up for long, naked marches through the Roob al Khali desert.
1805 1st pogrom in Ottoman Algeria against the Jews of Algiers after a famine. French consul Dubois-Thainville saves 200 Jews by sheltering them in his consulate.
1805 Exile of Jews from Algiers to Tunis and Livorno
1805 The leader of the Jewish Nation of Algiers, Naphthalie Busnach, is killed while riots ravage the neighborhoods.
1806 Expulsion by fatwa of the Jews of Sali in Morocco
1806 Ban on Moroccan Jews wearing Western clothing
1806 The janissaries of the dey of Algiers massacre and pillage in the Jewish quarter
1807 Expulsion of Jews from Tetouan
1808 1st massacres in the Mellah ghetto, North Africa
1815 The chief rabbi of Algiers, Isaac Aboulker, is beheaded during a riot.
1815 The Jews of Algiers are forced to fight against an invasion of locusts
1815 2nd pogrom of Algiers, Ottoman Algeria
1816 In Algeria, ban on carrying weapons for Jews and Christians
1820 Massacres of Sahalu Lobiant, Ottoman Syria
1828 Pogrom of Baghdad, Ottoman Iraq
1830 3rd pogrom of Algeria, Ottoman Algeria
1830 Start of the persecution of Jews in Persia, caused by the Russian advance in the Caucasus
1830 Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834 2nd pogrom of Hebron, Ottoman Palestine
1834 Pogrom of Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1838 Druze attack in Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1839 Massacre of the Mashadi Jews, Iran
1839 Forced conversion of surviving Jews from Mashadi
1839 Campaign of forced conversions of Iranian Jews
1840 Persecution of the Jews of Damascus; ritual murder case
1840 Forced conversion of the Jews of Mashadi
1840 Damascus, ritual murders (French Muslims and Christians kidnapped, tortured and killed Jewish children for entertainment), Ottoman Syria
1841 Massive murders of Jews in Morocco; the sultan is obliged to consider the Jews as his personal property, which helps to protect them
1844 1st Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1847 Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Ottoman Lebanon
1847 Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Jerusalem, Ottoman Palestine
1848 1st pogrom of Damascus, Syria
1848 Total disappearance of the Jews of Mashhad
1850 1st pogrom of Aleppo, Ottoman Syria
1854 Anti-Jewish pogrom in Demnate, Morocco
1857 Beheading in Tunis of the Jewish coachman Batou Sfez, accused of blasphemy, while he was drunk
1860 2nd pogrom of Damascus, Ottoman Syria
1862 1st pogrom of Beirut, Ottoman Lebanon
1864–1880 Marrakech massacre, Morocco
1866 Pogrom at Kuzguncuk, Ottoman Turkey
1867 Barfurush massacre, Ottoman Turkey
1868 Eyub Pogrom, Ottoman Turkey
1869 Massacre of Tunis, Ottoman Tunisia
1869 Massacre of Sfax, Ottoman Tunisia
1870 2nd Alexandria massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1870 1st pogrom in Istanbul, Ottoman Turkey
1871 1st Damanhur massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1872 Massacres in Edirne, Ottoman Turkey
1872 1st pogrom of Izmir, Ottoman Turkey
1873 2nd massacre of Damanhur, Ottoman Egypt
1874 2nd pogrom of Izmir, Ottoman Turkey
1874 2nd pogrom of Istanbul, Ottoman Turkey
1874 2nd pogrom of Beirut, Ottoman Lebanon
1875 2 pogroms in Aleppo, Ottoman Syria
1875 Massacre on the island of Djerba, Ottoman Tunisia
1877 3rd massacre of Damanhur, Ottoman Egypt
1877 Pogrom of Mansura, Ottoman Egypt
1882 Massacre of Homs, Ottoman Syria
1882 3rd massacre of Alexandria, Ottoman Egypt
1889 After the funeral of a rabbi, deemed too discreet, the Jewish cemetery of Baghdad was confiscated
1889 Looting of the Jewish quarter of Baghdad
1890 2nd Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1890 3rd pogrom of Damascus, Ottoman Syria
1890 Massacres of Tunis, Ottoman Tunisia
1891 4th massacre of Damanahur, Ottoman Egypt
1897 Murders in Tripoli, Ottoman Libya
1901–1902 3rd Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1901–1907 4th Alexandria massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1903 1st Port Said massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1903 & 1907 Taza & Settat, pogroms, Morocco
1903–1940 Pogroms of Taza and Settat, Morocco
1904 Massacre of Jews in Yemen
1907 Pogrom in Casablanca, Morocco
1908 2nd Port Said massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1909 Comment from the British vice-consul of Mosul: “The attitude of Muslims towards Christians and Jews is that of a master towards his slaves.”
1910 Blood libel of Shiraz
1911 Shiraz pogrom
1912 4th Fez pogrom, Morocco
1914 Expulsion of Jews from Palestine old enough to bear arms by the Ottomans
1917 Jewish Inquisition of Baghdadi, Ottoman Empire
1918–1948 Adoption of a law prohibiting the raising of a Jewish orphan, Yemen
1920 Irbid massacres: British mandate in Palestine
1920–1930 Arab riots, British Mandate Palestine
1921 1st Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1922 Massacres of Djerba, Tunisia
1922 Law of forced conversion of orphans in Yemen, concerning Jews including as adults
1927 60 Jews killed by Arabs in the Mellah of Casablanca, Morocco
1928 Massacres of Ikhwan, in Egypt and under British mandate in Palestine
1928 Jewish orphans sold into slavery and forced to convert to Islam by the Muslim Brotherhood, Yemen
1929 Anti-Jewish riots, British mandate: in August 1929, the Jews demanded the construction of the Western Wall; pogroms in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed. To stop the violence, the British reject this request
1929 3rd Hebron Pogrom under British Mandate Palestine
1929 3rd Safed pogrom, British Mandate Palestine
1933 2nd Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1934 Anti-Jewish pogrom in Constantine, Algeria
1934 Pogroms in Thrace, Turkey
1934 1st massacres in Farhud, Iraq
1936 3rd Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1936 2nd Farhud massacre, Iraq
1938 Boycott of Jews in Egypt
1938–1945 Arab collaboration with the Nazis
1939 Discovery of 3 bombs in synagogues in Cairo
1941 3rd Farhud massacre, Iraq
1941 Persecution of Jews in Libya
1941 Massacre of Jews in Baghdad, with the support of the authorities: approx. 170 dead
1942 Struma disaster, Türkiye
1942 Nile Delta pogroms, Egypt
1942 Discriminatory tax law of Varlik Vergisi in Turkey against Jews and Christians
1942 Looting of Jewish property in Benghazi and deportation to the desert
1944 Attack on the Jewish quarter of Damascus
1945 Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian riots in Egypt; churches and synagogues destroyed
1945 4th Cairo massacre, Egypt
1945 Pogrom of Tripoli, Libya
1947 Segregation measures against Jews in Egypt
1947 Pogrom in Libya; approx. 130 dead
1947 Pogroms of Aden in Yemen
1947 3rd pogrom in Aleppo, Syria
1948 “Emptying” of the Jewish quarter of Damascus, Syria
1948 1st Arab-Israeli war (1 Jew killed in 100)
1948 Oujda & Jerada Pogroms, Morocco
1948 1st Libyan Inquisition of the Jews
1948 attacks by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood against Jewish traders
1950 massive departure of Jews from Arab countries
1951 2nd Libyan Inquisition of the Jews
1952 Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian pogroms in Suez
1954 Assassinations and attacks in Algeria affecting the Jewish community, the desecration and destruction of 30 synagogues are attributed to Muslim populations
1954 Desecration in 1960 of the synagogue of Algiers as well as the cemetery of Oran
1954 Massacre of Sidi Kacem. 6 Jews were beaten and then burned alive with their children
1955 Anti-Jewish and Christian riots in Turkey; looting of churches and Jewish stores
1955 Attack on the rabbi of Batna
1955 3rd pogrom in Istanbul, Turkey
1955 Anti-Jewish riots in Izmir
1956 Fire in a synagogue in Oran
1956 In response to the attack on Suez, Nasser expels almost all Jews from Egypt, around 90,000 people, and confiscates their property
1956 1st Egyptian Inquisition of the Jews
1956 In response to the attack on Suez, Nasser expels tens of thousands of Jews and confiscates their property
1957 Murder of the rabbi of Nedroma
1957 Murder of the rabbi of Médéa
1957–1962 Attacks in the Jewish neighborhoods of Oran and Constantine
1960 A Saudi newspaper describes Eichmann: “the man who can be proud of having killed five million Jews”
1961 Grenade thrown into a synagogue in Boghari, Bousaada
1961 Ransacking of the Casbah synagogue in Algiers
1961 September 2, 1961, the assassination of a Jewish hairdresser in Oran and anti-Jewish attacks
1961 In Algeria, assassination of Jewish musician Sheik Raymond
1962 Desecration of the Jewish cemetery of Oran
1962 Pogrom in Oran
1962 July 5, 1962, a few days after the independence of Algeria, between 900 and 1,300 Europeans, notably Jews, were massacred in Oran
1964 The Egyptian army weekly notes: “In essence, the Jew has no qualifications to bear arms”
1964 Nasser tells a German neo-Nazi newspaper: “No one takes seriously the lie of 6 million murdered Jews”
1965 The Egyptian military manual presents the war against Israel as a jihad and quotes the Koran: “kill them wherever you reach them”
1965 Wave of anti-Semitism in Algeria; flight of the Jewish community
1965 Pogrom in Aden
1965 5th pogrom in Fez, Morocco
1967 2nd Egyptian Inquisition of the Jews
1967 Egyptian Jews are herded into camps during the Six Day War
1967 Pogrom in Libya during the Six Day War
1967 Pogroms in Tunisia
1967 The World Islamic Congress in Amman declares that Jews living in Arab countries must be considered “mortal enemies”
1967 Pogrom in Aden
1967 Arson of the great synagogue of Tunis
1967 Riots in Tunis, Tunisia
1967 World Islamic Congress in Jordan; it was decided that all Muslim governments must treat Jews “as mortal enemies”
1967 Publication in Egypt of the anti-Semitic text “The Protocol of the Elders of Zion”
1967 Pogrom and looting of Jewish stores in Tunisia
1969 Khomeini delivers thirteen speeches in Najaf which will be the basis of his book “The Islamic Government”; he develops the theme of hatred of Jews, accused of conspiring against Islam everywhere
1969 Execution of Jews in Baghdad
1970 Flight SR-330 Zurich — Tel Aviv crashes in a forest near Würenlingen, killing all 47 occupants. A bomb planted by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine exploded 9 minutes after takeoff
1979 Start of the flight of 200,000 Iranian Jews after the Islamist revolution.
1982 Tiberias pogrom in Israel, 6 killed
1985 Hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship by Palestinian terrorists. Jewish-American passenger Leon Klinghoffer was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair.
1985 Rome and Vienna Airport attacks, carried out by Abu Nidal Organization
1992 Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 29 and injuring 242
1994 AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 85 and injuring hundreds
1997 Terrorist attack on Empire State Building by Palestinian gunman, kills one and injures six
2000 Start of the Second Intifada, marked by increased violence against Israelis, including suicide bombings and shootings
2002 Passover massacre at Netanya hotel in Israel, 30 killed and 140 injured
2004 Taba Hilton bombing in Egypt, killing 34 and injuring 171
2008 Mumbai attacks, including Chabad House hostage crisis, 6 killed
2012 Toulouse and Montauban shootings in France, targeting Jewish schoolchildren and soldiers, 7 killed
2014 Hypercacher kosher supermarket siege in Paris, France, 4 killed
2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting and related attacks in Paris, France, targeting Jewish-owned businesses, 17 killed
2023 Thousands of armed Hamas terrorists tore down large parts of the Gaza security fence and invade southern Israel. Over 1,300 civilians were murdered, and over 200 were abducted. Hamas terrorists briefly took control of about 10 Israeli towns, terrorizing and brutalizing their residents. In addition, terrorists massacred hundreds at the Nova Music Festival, raping young women, brutalizing bodies, and abducting many. IDF forces operate to neutralize the terrorists, resulting in prolonged, bloody battles.“Zionist soldiers are indeed “their” soldiers. They are soldiers of the Zionist army, which is a foreign entity. That’s not at all complicated.
And, yes, you lied and also accused falsely.”You missed my point which doesn’t need elaboration, but I’ll state it clearly: You’ve written yourself out of Am Yisrael and everything implied by such.
And you would spit on soldiers as would your pals. I have no doubt about that.
““That being said, what I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact.””
YYA is right. Go learn history. Perhaps that was the case in the Middle Ages (I would contest that considering that taxes on non-Muslims, especaily Jews, were essentially extortion and protection payments to the mob, and certainly the treatment of Jews in Yemen was always abominable ), it certainly has not been the case for several hundred years already.
Chaim Baruch: Exactly right. However, the antizionist triumverate here cannot grasp any of this from their bubble.
HaKatan: It is very telling when you refer to IDF soldiers as “their soldiers”. And again, I did not say you did, I said you would and I stand by that.
I said you would, not that you did. Improve your reading comprehension.
My prediction was right.
@CasualReader – Don’t ask ujm, HaKatan or somejew to do that. They’ll spit on the soldiers instead.@Simcha – No one here other than a few of us care about this. This wasn’t worth posting. All it will do is lead to is the triumverate speaking ill of the deceased and the RZ community.
“You should beg forgiveness from all those Jews you have cursed, and you should also be banned from posting on these boards anything other than those apologies.”
You first, <expletive>.
“antisocial personality disorder with elements of histrionic comorbidity”
Sounds about right.
Or he’s just a troll and we keep feeding him for no good reason.
SJ: you’re right, I don’t know where you live. Monroe, Kiryas Joel, Monsey, Stamford Hill, Antwerp or Brooklyn make more sense for the likes of you, as opposed to somewhere like Y-lm, Bnei Brak or Kiryat Sefer. Go ahead and correct me.
My criticism of you is not without basis or merit. Every single criticism others have made of you and your opinions are exactly why I just told you to shut it already. But also bizui talmidei chachamim and whole litany of aveiros associated with lashon hara. I don’t need to rehash them.
You’re really fast to call people names and hurt insults, but this is the internet and you can easily hide behind a screen. If I’m an evil person, you don’t know what evil – or a truly bad person – is.
Agree with YYA. These arguments are purposeless.
SJ: Just give it a rest already. It appears people are getting sick of you and your cronies non-stop hijacking of threads with your cries of “Gevalt! Zionism!”. And anyway, you don’t live in Israel, so your opinion is completely irrelevant whinging.
@YYA – That’s really accurate. And quite funny.
@AAQ – YYA and Yankel are right about the HCJ.
The HCJ – by way of Aharon Barak and his cronies – seized power it had no right to. The HCJ is a massive protexia racket (to the point of children of justices doing their legal internships with fellow justices); it inserts itself into things it has no business being involved in, among many other things.
The whole point of the judicial reform was to take power away from the HCJ and put it back in line with the other parts of the government. And unsurprisingly, considering how involved the bar association is with judicial appointments, most lawyers in this country were against the reform (I personally know several – and it is very clear that the average Israeli doesn’t truly understand what separation of powers means, or they would be protesting the HCJ).
@YYA – We do.
I was trying to be melamed zechus.
Just throwing this in for a second to correct ujm, despite it probably being a waste of my time:
First, Let me be extremely clear: Any twisting of what I have to say by ujm and my lack of a response should not be taken as me admitting that his is right. It is not. I am simply refusing to engage with an individual who questioned my yichus in a public forum and was slapped down for it, and who additionally is the worst troll on this forum.
In no way is what I’m about to say making a statement that JTS was a good place overall. It was initially – when Sephardic Hakhamim, and specfically Sephardic Hakhamim were at the helm. It was no different than YU. It may have stayed that way had Sephardim remained in control. Once Ashkenazim took over, specifically after Louis Finkelstein, it very quickly in went downhill. It *may* have been okay while Lieberman, Dimitrovsky and Faur were around. Those three were probably the last bastions of actual Orthodoxy at JTS (Weiss Halivni barely counts as Orthodox). Once they were gone, that was it.
ujm declared Lieberman, Faur etc. apikorsim simply because of their affiliation with JTS. Education would remedy this – even just reading publicly accessible resources like Wikipedia or simple Google searches.
My point:
1) For most of the 1900s, the overhwleming majority of American Jews were part of the Conservative movement. Orthodoxy was relatively small. Reform Judaism wasn’t as large either. Historical documentation shows this. It cannot be denied just like the reality is that the European Shtetl was an extremely difficult place to live despite Artscroll and other publishers’ attempts to romanticize it.
2) It is likely that Lieberman and those with his background level were – like AAQ very correctly stated – trying to literally conserve some form of what would be called traditional/orthodox Judaism – because it was at risk of going extinct in the USA. Again, this is plainly obvious considering the churban in Europe, the lack of powerful Orthodox Jewish institutions at that time and the general refusal of Orthodoxy to transplant itself to the USA. (I’m not questioning the Rabbonim of that era – I’m pointing out reality and its consequences.)
3) In hindsight, Lieberman was fighting a losing battle – as were his colleagues. That’s obvious.
4) Lieberman – for all his shortcomings – was not an apikoros. He was most definitely orthodox in practice in belief and would not deviate from halacha. He prohibited the conservative prayer book; he made sure the mechitza stayed up in JTS, he certainly opposed the ordination of women – among many other things. This also applies to other figures at JTS at the same time – such as Faur, who also most definitely was not an apikoros by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyone who has read anything either of those two individuals have written (or the others) knows this because it’s plainly obvious. There’s no shittuf, krumkeit, avoda zara in either individual’s writings, just like there isn’t anything krum about Rav Kook’s writings, despite certain individuals claiming as such without ever having cracked one of Rav Kook’s sefarim.
Should they have all moved to YU? Yes.
@YYA – I got the point and don’t disagree. The organizations get confused all the time.
I was merely pointing out that NK would have more backing from larger swaths of the Orthodox Jewish community if they completely changed direction and tune, focusing on those issues mentioned rather than denouncing the State, especially together with people who would absolutely murder Jews if they could get away with it.
“BUT zionists aren’t WORRIED about kurais or mass death. They think it is honorable for jewish boys to die en masse for their political state. Thats how they worship their god. That’s what their dati leumi priests teach them.”
This is pure slander and you know it.
Stop calling RZ Rabbonim by terms such as “priests”.
@AAQ – Despite my disagreements with YYA and Yankel about the IDF and the RZ Tzibbur viewing IDF service as a net positive, Yankel is correct: Chilonim, and in particular the tzonbonim and progressives in the Merkaz – absoutely view the RZ Tzibbur as nothing more than cannon fodder. This has been brought up several times over the last two years in various RZ forums.
What to do about it is another story altogether and is something I’m quite frankly only willing to discuss with people who actually live in Israel.
HaKatan: I didn’t say anything about omissions. Your answer is a non-answer – exactly what I expected from you.
” NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues.”
Protesting over violations of Halacha is something I disagree with strictly because I view it as a waste of time. You’re not going to convince Chilonim – especially adamant secularists – to keep Shabbos or anything else by protests, or any other measures for that matter. But at least it’s a cause most Orthodox Jews can get behind.
Small one:
Again: I have never doubted the existence of the oaths, that’s clear from the Gemara. You are choosing to ignore the fundamental Halachos and principles of what may or may not be used for Halachik rulings in the name of ideology. Those principles and Halachos make it quite easy to “upshlug” the polemic you treat as more important than our sacred books.
The oaths are not Le-Halacha in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya. Anyone who knows Arabic – which you very clearly don’t – can plainly see they are used rhetorically and not as binding Halacha.
I agree, no Orthodox Jew should invalidate any Gemara nor mislead other Jews about Halacha. No Orthodox Jew should be invoking Midrash Aggada as binding Halacha. Orthodox Jews with a proper education know the difference between Midrash Aggada and Midrash Halacha. They know Aggada is not to be interpreted, it is not Le-Halacha, it is to be taken at face value and at most serves an Asmachta for halachos, whereas Midrash Halacha is in fact binding and is treated very differently. Orthodox Jews with that education also know that Halacha is not typically dervied from Nevi’im or Kesuvim, certainly not a Megilla that was nearly left out of our canon together with Koheles. This is obvious and has been so for thousands of years.
@Yankel: כל מילה בסלע. They absolutely would.@HaKatan – Nice riduculously pathetic attempt at humor.
More like to get you and your two compadres to stop treating a polemic mussar sefer built entirely on an invalid premise like it’s more important than our actual canon – you know, Tanach, Mishna, Talmud, etc., and get with the program.
Or at least to stop trashing other Orthodox Jews who disagree with you on one issue.
Mods: Please remove HaKatan from this board. His constant need to turn every single issue into Zionism – and inserting Zionism everywhere he can – prevents any substantive discussion of other issues and far more interesting subjects.
@Debater – If you would like to read a good short history of religious zionism, read the book I mentioned earlier in this thread, even though it’s in Hebrew.
All of the Anti-Zionists (and by extension Non-Zionists as well as Zionists who don’t live in Israel) should read it before saying the things they do about Religious Zionism. However, I doubt any will.
Why are we starting yet another thread about this subject?
To everyone here: You’re not going to be able to talk any sense into HaKatan and his ilk.
It’s best we just let these threads die.
“Democracy is not a Jewish concept. Judaism supports a monarchy that’s a Jewish theocracy.”
Keep telling yourself that. You know it’s not nearly as simple as that.
Yes, this thread absolutely needs to be shut down.
I’ll read the book.
Please read החוט המשולש by Yair Sheleg, also in Hebrew.
@YYA: Well said.
HaKatan:
Thanks for a real reference.
My response:
1) The question on Mi Yodeya is clearly answered that this “Mesorah” cannot be verified or fully attributed to whom you claim said it, as it could have been either the Vilna Gaon himself or Rav Chaim Volozhin.
2) The statement says nothing about the State of Israel you R”L wish to to see nuked into oblivion. It is about what will have to be dealt with in that final exile – rampant assimilation, intermarriage and a comfortable existence, one that led at one poster here to state that even after Moshiach comes, he will will not move to EY and will just only fly in for Chagim, as well as many, many others to say they would never move to EY because America is their home, not EY. Which leads to the question of just how much of American Jewry will last through the exile as Jews, and how many will assimilate and be lost.
3) What’s your point beyond more kvetching about Zionism?
@somejew –
Very briefly because I don’t have a lot of time for this (I could write far more but will not be doing so), and I will not be responding to you until I have time, which could be in a few months from now:
1) All I was doing was explaining Chaim’s broadside against you, why it most unfortunately was justified and why you are so difficult to have a conversation with. It’s a חבל that you couldn’t figure that out and resorted to accusations that are not true in the slightest.
2) I can say the same about you and your lack of understanding of how Batei Din, Serara, Pesak Halacha, Hora’ah, Takanos, etc. work.
3) The conversations about RZ are most definitely not meaningful and they do not do anything other than reveal reciprocal sinas chinam.
Actual heresies would be: (1) Chabad’s quasi-deificiation of their long-deceased Rebbe; (2) the tendency to regard Roshei Yeshiva and Chassidish Rebbes as pope-like figures who can perform miracles, if not outright deification of those Rabbonim; (3) praying to ספירות, which is minimally שיתוף if not outright polytheism and idol worship; (4) תפילות like מכניסי רחמים which pray to Angels, not HKB”H; (5) the Zohar implying that HKB”H has a wife and children. You could possibly also include the Zohar issuing Halachik rulings clearly in violation of regular Halacha. Shall I continue?
4) If you bothered to learn the Sefarim written by RZ Rabbonim, you would realize that you’re wrong. ויואל משה is one of the best polemics ever written against secularism and indeed it is food for thought on ideological terms, but it is not a halachik work, it should not be considered such and it does not argue effectively against RZ.
5) Those arguments that supposedly dismantle RZ are weak, especially when the underpinnings of the entire book rest on Aggada – which is not used to issue Halachik rulings and is not to be interpreted, but taken at face value, something you should know.
6) You want Torah arguments? Fine. Here we go:
a) Aggada. Read what I said above. That is a powerful Halachik argument, if not a Torah argument altogether. The entirety of ויואל משה is based on something that לפי הלכה is not to be used for exactly what the Satmar Rebbe uses it for. From that it is absolutely possible to argue that ויואל משה in fact teaches Torah in violation of Halacha. Unless you want to tell me that ויואל משה is in fact an ideological argument, in which case RZ argues against it. But it that case, ויואל משה is not Halachik in any sense of the word. Perhaps an Asmachta, but probably not even that.
b) You clearly do not understand Rambam’s use of the three oaths, its context and why it was stated in Risaala Al-Yemeniyya, just like HaKatan doesn’t get it either (and never responded to me about it). Read Mori Qafih’s (R. Yosef Kapach) edition of Iggeros HaRambam. There is nothing halachik about their mention, it is rhetoric. Reading the original in Arabic makes that patently obvious. The only halacha in that letter is in fact guidelines for dealing with a false messiah – in Yemen, not elsewhere. Those were specific circumstances. It cannot be extrapolated to today in reference to RZ.
b) Our מסורת – וזה נכתב בתורתינו הקדושה בעצמה: Any הוצאת דיבה about ארץ ישראל, which today means the State of Israel, and definition does include Zionism, leads to severe punishment. It happened when Berlin was declared ירושלים, it happened when other cities were declared ירושלים as well. Unlike the Satmar Rebbe’s hatred and short temper, this is an actual part of our מסורה. That is also a Torah argument and one that in our most sacred book meant the death of an entire generation and HKB”H killing 12 leaders immediately. By arguing against RZ and Z in general, ויואל משה is in fact an argument against ארץ ישראל in the modern era. There’s a reason why Satmar is often to referred to acting like the Meraglim.
c) The Satmar Rebbe only had authority over his commnunity. He did not have any authority over anyone outside, certainly not over the thousands who rejected his Shita outright. This is an actual הוראה issue and it most definitely applies. The RZ community has never accepted his authority. On top of that, his בית דין is not the only one in New York or in Israel. It therefore cannot claim sole abiltiy to issue תקנות of any kind because that requires the presence of one בית דין in a city. Thus, ויואל משה cannot be binding לפי הלכה.
d) Religious Zionism does not consider Moshiach to have come. Certainly this is the case post-expulsion from Gaza. You do not see anyone RZ not fasting on Tisha B’av or any of the other fast days. You do not see them erasing Selichos, Avinu Malkeinu or any other part of the traditional Tefillos said in mourning for the Beis HaMikdash and Yerushalayim.
e) Religious Zionism does not worship Herzl, Ben Gurion, Netanyahu or the State. They never have.
f) The prayer for the State does not say the Geulah has arrived. It says the extreme very possible beginning. Those qualifiers of ראשית צמיחת actually mean something.
7) That is Rav Kook to you. I will insist and demand that you show Der Rav the same respect you show the Satmar Rebbe.
8) The Satmar Rebbe was in fact wrong about Rav Kook. Your blind hatred and refusal to do any sort of serious research about the issue demonstrates your ignorance.
Be well.
Askanim should not exist. Period.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in galus for Torah is in America.”Again, provide a documented source.
I don’t believe Chaim is part of the RZ Tzibbur. I think he has RZ leanings.
You speak of fear about opening certain sefarim. I have learned VaYoel Moshe, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch, as well as Rav Kook. There is nothing in RZ that violates anything within any form of Orthodox Judaism. Period. You don’t know anything about RZ because you won’t study anything by Rav Kook, Rav Reines, Rav Alkalai, Rav Mohliver, etc. You instead project from ideologically secularist Zionism onto RZ, when they are categorically different. The practical Halachik differences, as I have said, are a couple of Mi-Sheberachs (which per Halacha must be said in Israel by all shuls, including Charedi) and Hallel on two days a year. The philosophical difference is how to deal with the State and its modern institutions. Anything else that differs is cultural. But I’ve said this all before; you just don’t want to accept any of it due to intransigence.
On the other hand, I can point out a great many number of things that Chassidim do that are flagrant violations of Halacha and/or are are almost forms of idol worship or shittuf, if not being polytheistic in nature and straight idol worship.
You’re getting hit with personal attacks because quite frankly, you’re what we would call – for lack of a better term – a grade-a <expletive>, and an intentionally ignorant one at that. You’re divisive, you drive Sinas Chinam, you try to make up Halachik excuses for your behavior. You are being called out for that, as well as the following:
1) You are a Chassid (I suspect Satmar, Vitznitz or Munkacz, since those three groups are the most vitriolic in their hatred of anything supporting the State of Israel, or even Zionism in any form) who cannot get it through his head that other valid Orthodox derachim do not and will not take a Chassidish Rebbe’s word to be immutable law from Har Sinai. We’ll ask our Rabbonim about these questions, thank you very much. Which also leads to a point I made a few months ago: The Satmar Rebbe did not have any authority outside his community, especially over the great number of Jews who have consistently rejected his authority and his sefer. You also refuse to address the fundamental questions I’ve raised against Vayoel Moshe. You just respond that I’m a heretic, despite the legitimacy of the questions being raised.
2) You are completely ignorant regarding RZ. I explained why above.
3) You are incredibly disrespectful when it comes to RZ Rabbonim, with you using epithets that should only be used for actual Resha’im and not even using terms of respect and authority that were earned. Rav Kook is not one of them, and you are grade-a schmuck (and I mean the Yiddish definition) for continuing to use those epithets. (The next time you refuse to call Rav Kook with his title, I will ask the moderators to delete your disrespectful posts like I’ve done in the past.)
There’s a reason why I’ve been telling you for at least two years to give it a rest and get a clue. Think about it. Read an actual history of RZ and and accrate biography of Rav Kook.
I’ll stop there.
@YYA – Obviously.
@AAQ – Here’s the thing: There is no actual change in leadership. Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood and all the other various jihadist groups have the same beliefs and mindset. It’s an issue with Islam itself.
@YYA:
“The Chareidim are the Zhid of Israel, and Israel is the Zhid of the world.”
I don’t agree with the first part of this unless this is from the perspective of Chilonim, but the second part is definitely true.
“For all the armchair Kanoyim in the room trying to find sources to expand the ranks of “Kofrim B’Ikkar”
That describes somejew and HaKatan perfectly.
@YYA – Don’t worry. HaKatan isn’t making Aliyah anytime within this lifetime. He’ll live anywhere but Israel. Even if he doesn’t say it, it’s plainly obvious from his posts.
@AAQ – I live in Israel, we’ve seen the results of these situations repeatedly. We know what will happen.
Unfortunately, with international politics being as they are, there really is no solution.
@OP:
I made Aliyah and agree with YYA.
Let them stay in the US. Moshiach hasn’t come anyway and most people wouldn’t accept a Moshiach who doesn’t look exactly like them, which means nothing is changing.akuperma:
“if non-zionist Hareidim grow in number, they might be able to work out something with the Yismaelim to bring about peace, something the secularists have been unable to do for the last century”If you think this is possible, you very clearly don’t know anything about Islam and Arabs.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA.”Provide a documented source (Sefer, page, footnote, etc.) that can actually be looked up. The phrase “we have a mesorah” isn’t good enough.
What happens is obvious: Hamas rearms and another round of fighting happens sometime in the near future, hopefully without a repeat of what happened two years ago.
We should have wiped everyone in the strip off the map or expelled them to Egypt or Jordan.
HaKatan:
Let’s pull this apart:
“Rabbi Kook was indeed very learned and had certain standards that were extremely high, like tznius, for example”.
First of all, that is Rav Kook to you. We’ll start there. Show the required respect. And yes, Rav Kook followed halacha meticulously, as is well documented.
“He also held that their “State” may not come about through violence and war, which is exactly how it did end up being founded.”
A defensive war. An actual second attempt at full Shmad after the Churban a few years before. Pikuach Nefesh in the most literal form possible. Does Halacha address that? Yes, you kill a rodef, which is exactly what the Arabs were.
“But all of that doesn’t change what the gedolim held of him, as mentioned above. The Chazon Ish also banned the sale of Rabbi Kook’s books, which included at least Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, if not also the others. So, no, that would not fit into the rubric of “hardline chareidi”.”
Works being banned by Rabbonim does not make one not Charedi. You clearly don’t know what Charedi means beyond the cultural trappings of such. If Rav Kook were alive today, he’d be voting for UTJ.
@Avi K – True. However, an issue of Mekor Rishon (Hebrew RZ newspaper, if you’re aware of it) from a year or two ago stated such and provided a documented source of the statement I summarized. Based on that, it does appear that the Hungarian establisment was not prepared for a Litvak to hold any authority over them. But that also reinforces a statement I made in another thread, that these “disputes” and “fights” were largely ideological without real animosity, with the most notable exception who made it personal was a certain Rav Teitelbaum.
@AAQ – I was not writing off REW. I was condemning Askanim – both past and present – for providing disinformation, causing Rabbonim to make statements based on deliberately incorrect or incomplete information and creating rifts that don’t need to exist – such as that between the Charedi and RZ public.
Regarding R Elyashiv and R Kamenetsky – It was disinformation, just like what was done to R Slifkin. I have no doubt regarding that.
@yankel –
HaKatan, in his blindness and hatred, is unwilling to do the research which would reveal Rav Kook to be as hardline Charedi as they got despite being the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi and part of the Rabbanut. Instead, he will argue – as he has in the past -that Rav Kook was powerful and they used those titles because of his position and being intimidated into doing so, not because he actually deserved them.
Which is an absolutely absurd assertion to make and I do not understand HaKatan’s intransigence and unwillingness to do even the most basic research into Rav Kook’s life.
He also will not address the fact that with the exception of the Satmarer, most of these “fights” between the RZ/MO Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur were largely ideological, with neither party having any true animosity/visceral hatred toward the other.
“REW may also have been influenced by courtiers who gave him misinformation.”
This would not surprise me. I suspect many Rabbonim who were opposed to Zionism were fed misinformation – deliberately – by the evil known as Askanim. Especially insofar as Rav Kook is concerned (who today would be considered very Charedi).
And there’s also the Hungarian establishment in the Old Yishuv’s sole objection to Rav Kook being, “He’s a Litvak. We ain’t listening to no Litvak”.
Vezos HaBeracha – Yamim Nora’im
Bereshis – Regular other than last line for each day. Unless it’s the resident Teimani guy reading, in which case he cycles through Teimani, Ashkenazi (Polish), and Edot HaMizrach.
Maftir- Regular@EX-CTL – Florida is either southern New York or northern Cuba so not surprising (I’m kidding). The further north you go in Florida, the more southern it becomes.
Where I come from in the south, a large number of people in almost every single one of the Orthodox Shuls carry.