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“….pikuach nefesh will require chilul shabbos along the way….”
Not talking about pikuach nefesh either.
Just expanding the subject of MINYAN , which is the major component of the discussion.Milhouse,
:……The question we’re discussing here is whether one may go where there is no minyan for no good reason, but merely for amusement…..”I understand what you’re discussing…. But in discussing MINYAN, I’m simply pointing out that travelers did not daven with a minyan, whether it was for business, leisure, hiboddedus, visiting , etc..
Am I allowed to expand on the subject MINYAN in general, or must I stick to Disney , Boiberick and/or Hutzenplutz?Even on planes today, there are psaks that in order not to inconvenience crew and passengers, one can daven in the seat even though there’s a minyan on board..
“…..ZionGate, all your examples are of travel for a purpose….”
Of course… Every travel has a purpose..
Maybe my examples are a nuisance to those who want to stick to chatting about vacations minyans only..
In that case, go back to the pool, flip the sunglasses and enjoy the lemonade…
Watch the sun..!Joseph :
My point is that davening with a minyan is apparently not an absolute, because
those that traveled years ago didn’t take others with them to make the minyan, they knew they would daven w/o one, and did…
1…… You didn’t get my point….Edited
A Question:
Did Yidden, especially rabbonim, who traveled from city to city via horse & buggy years ago daven with a minyan? Or those holy tzaddikim who “praah’ved” golus, travelling and stopping at inns for weeks , daven with a minyan? Or rabbonim during the Middle- to rather -modern, Ages who wended their ways to EY , sometimes by boat, daven with a minyan?
For the most part, I don’t think so.Did those Yidden & rabbis who traveled to other towns and cities by horse, buggy, boat or by foot during the Middle – modern Ages , daven with a minyan?
Great tzaddikim did golus wanderings and stopped at inns at night, or visited other places……frum Yidden traveled for business of all kinds, and where was the minyan?“……As far as the original premise that Hashem only brings a nisayon that a person can handle, I heard that Ramban in Shaar Hagemul disagrees or limits this to specific situations….”
Would be interesting to see that Ramban, but here are parts from Chofetz Chaim’s sefer “Binsivos Hatfilah”…. p. 55, under ‘Laamod B’nisayon & ‘Suffering Yesurim ‘..
…..We say the prayer of Al Tevi’einu Lidei Nisayon each morning , because we may not have the power/strength to withstand the nisayon…
…….From Midrah Tehillim, There were those who who prayed for yesurim , and those who said, Lo Hein V’Lo Secharan because they were afraid they wouldn’t be able to withstand nisyonos… End of Chofetz Chaim’s words… Obviously, not everybody can handle a nisayon..
We also know that David Hamelech asked Hashem to give him a nisayon, but he failed it.What’s not clear to me is this : Are there degrees of nisyonos, is every tzara ch”v or catastrophic event a nisayon,
or something else? A gezeira of some kind maybe, an onesh??
For example, an enticement to do an aveirah of say, theft, eating non-kosher food, arayos, etc. can arguably be considered a nisayon, and the person will undergo an inner struggle not to cave in…
But is this the same as being slammed with frightening traumas in life, physical & mental, that are more severe and have damaged lives as a result, as I have presented in my first post above, or even as some others have commented here… It is to this type of nisayon , if that’s what it is , that I believe the OP alluded,
and which is a strong question.… My last comment wasn’t on halachas of suicide…. My comment was on the entire question of whether Hashem doles out more than we can take…
Sure, we can discuss it. However, it seems to me this is not a halachic issue but one of hashkafa..
A posek per se won’t resolve it, but if anyone with extensive knowledge about this subject would be beneficial, though I don’t believe it would be conclusive.. 3 different learned people may give us 4 different answers..
Great subject, TC, it was actually on my mind for a while.While the above suggestions are all good ones, there’s a great chance you
you’ll be duplicating because someone else beat you to them..
How about a biography, interesting sefer on life, Jewish history or a “motivater” sefer? So many interesting publications now on the market..
I’ve given one of these as a gift years ago, and the then Bar Mitzvah boy, now married, tells me he still re-reads the book..
Or a gift certificate from any Judaica store and let the boy choose.“…….I have heard from countless lecturers that Hashem doles out nisyonos and tribulations that an individual can tolerate. Hashem does not dish out more than a person can handle…..”
We’ve all heard that too, but where is the mekor for that?
The best I’ve heard, is that this is based on a Chazal that says that Hashem doesn’t hit with 2 sticks at once.
Whatever that means, we, however , see people who’ve been broken by traumas in life , practically forever.
Broken hearts, nervous breakdowns, suicides, mental derangement, etc.
Your question is stronger than the answers we’ve been given..I highly recommend,
To Dwell in The Palace, Ya’aleh Veyavo… Edited by Tzviah Ehrlich-Klein, Feldheim Publishers,
haskama from Rav Mordechai Gifter.
Powerful essays , some which address points in this thread.….And they continued from tent to tent, crying, throwing themselves on floor, saying ” Woe to your children, woe that the Giants, Anakim who will sacrifice and murder them to the last.. Here you are surrounded by Clouds of Glory who protect.. Not there…!! No, no..” We cannot win, we dare not risk our lives…”
“…..The Jews in France, UK and Germany experience less physical violence than the Jews in the State of Israel….” Proves nothing.
Meanwhile Aliyah is coming from Europe not the other way around…
Why don’t you stroll down the Champs Elysee, France or Unter Den Linden, Germany with your kippa, big shot?
Or how about your daughter, wife or even mother stroll there with a Star of David necklace?Sorry, I wrote:
“….. in in a city in EY which is full of avodat kochavim, rather then live in EY….”Of course, I meant to write RATHER THAN LIVE OUTSIDE EY.
Rabbi Nachbi ben Vofsi :
Stay here in the desert, you dummies.
Where better to be oisek in Toireh than there without other idol worshippers and reshoyim… You got manna, a rolling well, newly pressed clothes daily, what’s wrong with y’all ??
Eretz Yisroel ??? Ha… Living amongst the abominable nations who do worse than the Mitzriyyim ? Have you forgotten already that Moshe Rabbeinu quoted Hashem.. ” Uvchukoseyhem Lo Seileichu”… You’ll learn from these people…
Stay here among the scorpions … Shteig here , ye masses…
Don’t take a chance on your and your children’s ruchnios..
Frolick here in the midbar, boyz & girlz…
Listen to us, we’re the gedolim..While it’s true that one must live a holy life in Eretz Yisroel, Chazal already told us that it’s better to live in in a city in EY which is full of avodat kochavim, rather then live in EY..
Our patriarchs lived there even though the 7 abominable nations dwelt there.
People should refrain from preaching and and discouraging others from living there… Stress the positive, teach the holiness of EY and elevate people to potential instead of denigrating EY..
We all know already about the sitra achra and Yetzer Harah competing with the strong holiness that permeats the Holy Land.
Oh, but the Zionists….”….setting themselves up to be far worse off ruchniyosdik ….’, Blah, blah, blah…
Are there meds to alleviate this obsession??Lololol…. Ha, Ha.. with a straight face yet.
He’s licking pistachio ice cream cones as he reads your comments.
Letz all use paper fans, hire fanners , and make his day.Brother Avram MD….
I have a similar dilemma….
What to do with wedding invitations nowadays?
Beyoncé fanfares for chosson/kallah entrances…
Heimishe melodies STOLEN by heimishe songwriters/singers from the rock world and… Voila…. morphing into
Seeeeman Tov and such… Oh, you know them all right…
Mmmmmm…. What to do? Should I attend..??
Keep the faith, bro..!!“…..They often force one to distort the syllables and meter of the text, and unnecessarily drag out the davening….”
With Carlebach niggunim?? Never experienced that, they fit nicely ; on the contrary, so many other niggunim don’t fit the text.
Hence, the oy, oy…, ey, ey,…. tra- la- la…, na-na-na- to fill the gaps.Toi,
I re-read my post now, and there’s nothing paradoxical about it.
You didn’t answer any of my points , but responded with rhetorical questions, which sound like a rant.
Obviously, you didn’t it.
However, I DO give your credit and respect for living in EY…. Hallevei all of us, and soon.Did Shlomo Hamelech subscribe to Hiram’s avodah zarah when the latter helped build the BH ?
Did the BH itself subscribe to the beliefs of the Umos Haolam when it itself allowed their karbonos?
Does not the Ramban, Radak and others foretell of the willingness of Umos Haolam to help create EY as the Jewish abode for Jews as the geulah gets close?
It’s been foretold in many places Tanach about the non-Jews slowly recognizing EY and Hashem’s sole rulership as the geulah gets closer.
Subscribing from stretchy chewing gum, to Evangelicals, to Zionism.
Sorry boys, that ain’t gonna stick.Toi ;
“……was founded on principle of and continues to operate a systematic divestment of religion….”Only partly true.. Yes, there were people in the movement who felt that way, but most did not. ( Please read, Rav Teichtal in Eim Habonim , , Rav Reines in Or Chodosh Al Tziyon & Rav Yitzchok Nissenbaum in Ketavim Nivcharim )
Why don’t you look at flowering of kashrus, yeshivos, kollelim, …. more Torah in EY than anywhere in the world.
Why be a Kohen who stares at the skin and declares Tzaraas…. Why not be the Kohen who sees NO Tzaraas… ..
Would you condemn Ezra who went up to the land with his mechallelei Shabbat’nikes, and those married to non-Jewish women and built the Bet Hamikdash? Remember when Rav Zeira called those talmidei chachamim who stayed in Bavel, ‘tipshei d’Bavleh’.“……Can one not claim to love the land Hashem gave to the Jews and still call out the zionists for what they truly are….”
By all means, call them out. Nobody disagrees with the those who despise religion.
But why not look at the entire picture instead of staring at Tzaraas? If you love the land so much, why don’t you work to bring the brethren to make Aliyah and vote them out?
That’s what the Gur Rebbe said 80 years ago…. Make Aliyah frum Jews, and influence the land. R’ Sonnenfeld, the anti-Zionist said exactly the same thing.
Why aren’t you guys trying to influence by taking an approach that draws Yidden into Torah instead of battling and battling?
Have you ever heard of Rav Aryeh Levin?…. And how he worked with non-frum, and what kind of Kiddush Hashem he made?
If you love the land so much, how come you choose not to see the miracles DESPITE the bad actors…
If you love the land, why don’t you preach and teach these miracles to one and all and draw people ever closer to the Torah?
If you love the land, you observe Yom Haatzmaut…. AND Yom Yerushalayim…. Because that’s what Hashem orchestrated.. Despite the overwhelming odds against its survival..
Don’t try to be G-D’s Cossack… he doesn’t need that…“……… Shmutz laAretz …..”
May I use this line, Avi ? Luv it.
ZD has it right. In the Russian Pale which included Poland, the majority of Jews were from ok, to poor, to destitute. Many left the shtetels and moved to the cities. There , assimilation, socialism, Marxism, and the virulent anti-religious Bundism flowered both among the very few rich and mostly poor or lower middle class.
Throw in the pogroms and migration, Haskallah and what not and they left orthodoxy in droves.
There are no definitive surveys of the economic breakdowns, to my knowledge.
But even after cursory reading about the period from 1880 and on, it’s obvious that wealth had very little to do with holding on to Yiddishkeit. There was hardly wealth at all.“……But once they became followers of rabbi miller all that changed….”
It’s not just him, but followers of rabbis who preach an all-but-nothing, black & white approach & in lectures.This affluent vis-à-vis less frum opinion is stereotypical , non-proven and just a shovelful of dirt on people.
In the meantime, it says that poverty can remove a person from ” Daas M’kono” ….. meaning LESS frum. Doesn’t say that about wealthy.
Each category has its nisayon . I don’t know from where this OP got his stats , or maybe he was invited into thousands of homes and came loaded with a notebook and loose leaf….. Whatever….If you’re a basketball fan, kvell. Why not?
I’m a baseball fan…(.as is R’ Wein , and as was R’ Finkel Z’Tl who , a year before the Cubs won the WS, said that he doubted they would ever win the WS in his lifetime , and then sadly was nifter a year before .)… as are plenty of lomdim , shteigers and rabbis ……..so what?
Sandy Koufax , for being a great pitcher, and more so for taking off on Yom Kippur during the World Series ,brought pride to so many Jews, including many who were initially not too attached to Judaism .
I’m proud of Sandy.. Kvell away….To me, anytime archaeologists find an artifact anywhere it’s interesting , especially in EY,
even if it belonged to someone other than Yeshaya.Maybe some day Communist No-News ( all faux) network WILL find untouched-up artifacts of the Malaysian airliner, who knows?
“…..Ironically, I found it on the internet…”
Ironically.
How ironic.I’ll end with this.
What began decades ago, still continues .
Their weeklies ( Yes, I read Yiddish) are filled with the worst kind of language, shameless slander, hate and propaganda imaginable. Many of you would be shocked that Chareidi newspapers print words that border on obscene.
Have a wonderful, happy Adar.….. And what they said about Rav Shteinman Zichrono Livracho, and the things they did after his petirah..
Rachmona Litzlon…. Unspeakable…….DY,
I was referring to the Satmar group as well as the NK or Natrunah which runs out of Williamsburgh.
In short, they run a summer camp and … etc… etc. And yes, I abhor them. They consider even frum Jews who are Zionists less Jewish than themselves. Let’s be realistic here.
I’m not conflating reasonable debate among reasonable people on either side.
Remember… this thread by this individual, began as a gratuitious attack and added lashon hara where no conversation was held about this subject. This individual has thrown around the words Yemach Shemo here and on other sites that he visits and the circular to which I already alluded. This is the line of thinking of the above mentioned extremists, who have a history of harassment, cursing burning in effigy….. And now I’m specifically talking about Williamsburgh… And specifically decades ago…. I ,as were others, were witnesses to these events.
Maybe you’re too young to know…. maybe too young to know what they did to even rabbonim whom they suspected of Zionist heresy. What you’re getting these days is out- and- out revision of these events.
Cursing the entity with the worst klollos, praying for its destruct….. is abhorrent…. Rejected by any and all sane anti-Zionists, and too gross an evil to draw fine lines about what it includes.
Bottom line… That to which I refer, is a grubb, primitive Jew hating mentality … I make no apologies for what I wrote.“…..then I would say that most Yidden abhor their actions……….You are the one who seems to be admitting to abhorring other Yidden …”
Only those to whom you’re alluding…. and their sympathizers.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
And if I abhor them, I don’t for a second hate them.
Don’t put words in my mouth.Yes, Avi K,
They’ve besmirched Rav Teichtal H”YD and others who agreed with him. His sefer is a goldmine of names of tzaddikim who agreed with him… or that he agreed with them.
It seems that young Chareidim are abandoning the shitas in droves, looking for employment and wanting a higher education.DY,
Don’t try to be a deluxe , cute lawyer, turning the wheel around to me.
Get into another line of work.“…..Who’s foul mouthed? Who’s a hater?….”
So I’m foulmouthed for saying ” vomit them out” and your buddies are NOT foulmouthed for wishing the murder of Jews.
Are you defending them??
DaasYochid…. That’s what you basically are…. MOST Yidden abhor this group?
You Kool Aide guzzlers have lost your minds..“…Actually, R’ Sonnenfeld would more likely have said…”
More likely, less likely, never likely.
I’m writing what he said.
“….You cannot legitimately complain about someone ch”v cursing Eretz Yisroel,…”
Oh , no??
When adults and kids are cursing for destruction and there are millions of Torah Jews there?
This secular entity contains Jews… Yidden…“…..cannot legitimately complain…”
Ok, so I’ll , illegitimately complain… That they are foul mouthed sickos who should be vomited out of our midst.
DY……There’s no need to discuss.
It’s been discussed ad infinitum. Basic point being… Again… That you guys don’t have a clue why Hashem did it His way…
But maybe a clue can found in the words of gedolei Yisroel , for example the rabbi of Gur and R’ Sonnenfeld who said , that if more frum people who have made Aliya , it would have looked different. Hashem had His plan, and the ultra extremists tried to thwart it….. Atzas Hashem Hee Sokum…. Now you guyz go back into the time machine.
Millions of us are living in the present and hope for a glorious future.DaasYochid,
Surely you’re aware of the curses against EY that many fanatics say with their impure mouths.
Curses that I don’t even want to repeat here ; but they are basically avile hope about the destruction………
We know who they are, they even use children in camp to repeat this mantra.
THIS is what’s hate, DaasYochid.
I’d like to see if Joe Schwartz or Yossie G. agrees, and if he doesn’t, let him here and now, disavow it.“….Do you get the Television Vues to keep up with the local television shows …”
As you well know, but others might not, it’s an advertising medium for sales of the week by local stores.
The bigger question is: Why do YOU read and then write to this mag?
Is “hypocrisy” an apt word here?
In fact, when do you learn any Torah at all, being that you’re here 24/6, and bother with a TV sked circular?
( which , in case people don’t know, is hardly even the case)“….Could it be it was merely stated in defeat?….”
Let me bud in on this one, Avi.
It’s he, Joseph, and his like minded chevra that are in defeat. They’re in denial and live in the past, dredging up old pieces of regurgitated clippings.
B”H , Hodu LaShem, for EY . Growing in everything, including the ingathering of Jews from all over….. The nissim and miracles are too numerous to write here… So may are hidden and we don’t even know about them …
These hate filled people have already, and forever , been defeated.
They’re modern day meraglim who purport to know Hashem’s ways. Nachbi ben Vofsi, as an example of the rest of the 10, was a huge gadol and talmid chacham. Yet, he and his reshoim gang brought about a bechiya ledorot.
Joseph: You lost, get over it already.In a few months it’ll be Yom Haatzmaut.
There’s a free circular in the NY area calling itself TV VUes in which some guy calling himself Yankel Schwartz or similar, sends this type of hate during that time every year.
I’m looking at you, Joseph.