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rebdoniel: It’s nice to hear you’re a sefardi, and as such it makes sense for you to follow the shittah of the mechaber, and the opinion of the Ibn Ezra, but why would you try to encourage Ashkenazim (if I understand correctly, it is an Ashkenazi shul you’re talking about) to follow Sephardi psak?
I find that wrong even if the people are too naive to know the difference. How would you like if I got a job as a Chazan in your family’s sephardi shul and tried to encourage them to say all the piyutim in the middle of the Amidah, because the Rema did it that way?
reb doniel: I’m sorry to be writing so much but there were so many points you made that were groundless and had to be addressed.
As such I forgot perhaps the most important. You were saying we should follow the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch who wrote that piyutim are hefsek. Since when do Ashkenazim follow the mechaber over the Rema? The Rema is very clear that piyutim are recited in the davening by Ashkenazim and Mishna Brura elaborates by giving a story of a rabbi who stopped his community from saying yotzros and then died that year.
If you prefer Sephardi pask as per the Mechaber, maybe you should find yourself a sephardi shul, and wake up early in Elul to say slichos every morning.
artachshasta: It’s incorrect that we skip from Misod to Zachreinu on second day mussaf. We don’t say Misod AT ALL on second day mussaf since no piyutim are said in first brachos! Check any traditional machzor. As such, this proves the point that Misod is NOT said if we skip to Zachreinu, and if Misod is said, it should be followed by the piuytim it is asking for permission to recite.
rebdoniel and others: Many mention that the Gra did not recite piyutim. PLEASE PROVIDE A SOURCE THAT IS BETTER THAN MAASSEH RAV. Masseh Rav is VERY CLEAR that the GRA said ALL of the piyutim in chazaras hashatz on RH and YK. Please look it up inside (in the section of RH and YK) and then get back to us here, instead of making things up (though it is a common error amongst yeshiva educated people who don’t bother to open up maaseh rav or offer a better source). The Gra did not say the piyutim in bircos krias shma. Also, on other Chagim, the Gra held that the piyutim were hefsef, but still said MANY of them (including ve’ata bonim on shavuos, bracho dodi on pesach….) AFTER HALLEL. As someone who is worried of hefsek but tries to follow the Gra I hope you also say these beautiful piyutim after hallel (the Rav by the way did the same thing), as well as the yotzros of Arba parshios, like the Gra and the Rav, after kaddish.
rebdoniel: Chachmei Ashkenaz have spoken VERY highly about our piyutim, particularly those of Elazar Hakalir (who wrote the piyutim in bircos shma and almost all of the piyutim of chazaras hashatz on 1st day RH and YK). Tosfos and Rashi quote yotzros and other piyutim throughout (rashi on last week’s parsha actually just quoted one of the piyutim you wish to skip (see rashi on breishis 30:22).
I respect Ibn Ezra a lot (in fact, he wrote some beautiful piyutim himself including tzama nafshi that is to be said as an introduction to Nishmas but is now sung on friday night). But Ibn Ezra is NOT an Ashkenazi posek, and as such should not be used as a source for the minhag in an Ahkenazi shul.
The piyutim are extremely beautiful and are part of a SYSTEM. It makes absolutely no sense to skip the main ones that Elazar Hakalir wrote to say within the brachos and just scream out the “easy” ones after mechaye hameisim. Instead, one should follow the Mishna Brura (who by the way speaks very highly of piyutim and goes into detail also about the piyutim of Shalosh Regalim including the Maarovos said on Yom Tov night) and study the piyutim before Yom Tov.
As far as Misod, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to say Misod and then skip to Zachreinu (although many yeshivos seem to do that). Misod is an introduction to the piyutim that immediately follow, if no piyutim follow then the Misod becomes a real hefsek since it serves no purpose but for the chazan to show off his voice.
And the best proof is that Misod is NOT said in Musaf of 2nd day RH even though Nesaneh Tokef, Vechol Maamimin and other piyutim are said later on. It is not said because no piyutim follow immediately. This seems pretty obvious to me, but please let me know if you have any better understanding of why Misod is not said on the 2nd day Musaf.
My suggestion: Get yourslef a machzor with a good perush. I suggest getting the new Koren Sacks. It offers excellent interpretations of the piyutim and lays out their beautiful structure in a way, that it my opinion, makes it a crime to skip them.
When you begin to understand the piyutim, and connect with hundreds of years of Ashkenazi mesorah (and the piyutim are remarkably similar on RH and YK between different Ashkenazi communities), I think you will get a different level of respect for Mesores Ashkenaz and will hopefully think differently.