zalmy

(my background: finished law school a few years ago, work as a patent attorney, obviously have many friends/acquaintances who are attorneys.)

– whoever mentioned it before, i cannot emphasize enough that the legal marketplace (as a whole) was hit very hard. this is true nationwide, but nowhere moreso than NYC. put simply, the demand for lawyers has gone down drastically, but the supply of lawyers (i.e, the number of new law school graduates coming into the job market every year) is higher than ever before. you don’t need a degree in economics to understand what this means.

– the reason for this is (in part) due to the fact that the barrier for entry into law school (and the legal profession) is very low. there are no prerequisites for law school (case in point

– you can get a BTL, take the LSAT, and go to law school). as a result, 10’s of 1000’s of college graduates with relatively-worthless (from an employment/earning standpoint) undergraduate degrees (think philosophy, history, sociology, etc., etc.) apply to (and attend) law schools every year.

– the case has always been (and is true all the moreso now) that, when all things are equal, the best jobs will go to the most qualified students. since there are far fewer jobs now, the competition for them is incredibly fierce. if you do a bit of searching, you can find many reports, articles, etc., documenting how so many lawyers are unemployed now, including many ivy league graduates, etc. so, the only way that investing 3 years and probably around $150k in student loans is worth it, is if you attend one of the top 14 law schools (the higher the better in large part), or you finish at the very top (say %5-10) of one of the top 100 law schools. any school ranked below 100 (on the US news list) is simply not worth attending, in most cases. the reason being what i wrote above – would you rather hire a top student from hofstra, touro, etc., or an average student from columbia (again, assume all other factors are equal)? you simply do not have a good chance of getting a job paying more than 50k/year (starting salary) if you attend a law school ranked below 100 or so.

the ONLY exceptions to this rule (in sum: either go to a top 14 school, or else do VERY well at a top 100 school, or else it is VERY unlikely that you will be getting paid more than 50k/year when you graduate) are:

1. if you have a job waiting for you when you go to law school (i.e. your parent/close relative has a firm, or is a partner in a firm, or is a major client of a firm).

or

2. you have a specialized background/education that you can apply to your legal career (and which therefore distinguishes you, and makes it so that the history, philosophy, etc., majors can’t compete with you for the same jobs), for example, a hard science/engineering degree (i.e., chemistry, electrical engineering, etc.) which enables you to practice patent law, or an accounting/finance degree which may give you something of an advantage in tax law, as well as in corporate, securities, and bankruptcy. now, there are many unemployed lawyers in these areas, too, but far fewer.

something else to think about: your law school performance is based entirely on your grades which are (for the most part) given based on a single blind-graded (i.e., the professor does not see your name, just your answers, and gives the grade “blind”) exam for each class. the exams almost always consist of 3-5 essay questions, the answers to which are usually 10-20 paragraph responses. many BTL graduates have poor english writing skills, especially when compared to college graduates who have been writing essays/papers for 4 years. even with a “gemmara kup,” this puts many BTL graduates at a significant disadvantage.

not trying to dissuade you if you really think its for your, but you need to know the truth (at least from my own experiences/observations). law schools in particular try to skew their salary reporting data, because they make tons of $$$ every year from student loans from every student who goes to law school thinking they’re gonna make good $$ when they leave. if the schools were honest about this, far fewer people would go to law school, and the legal market would slowly normalize (hopefully).

i am curious as to the degree of formal (or even informal) scientific education possessed by those on this board who relate to contemporary science/math with terms like “shtusim”, “nonsense”, “sheker”, “kefira”, (or even just “boring”), etc.. i’m expecting to hear either that 1. these various posters actually have studied science on a graduate level (or perhaps even hold Ph.D.’s), or 2. science is such “shtus” that any 10 year old in yeshiva can tell you its a waste of time.

i suspect that those who are arguing most loudly that science is “shtus” and we can learn all of science exclusively from torah have actually had a very limited exposure to science/the study of science. in all likelihood this may be something they are proud of. but we should also consider how much value can be ascribed to the opinion of someone who may admittedly be completely ignorant on the subject he is addressing.

of course, i would be very happy to be proven wrong. so – to those who relate to contemporary science/math as “sheker”, “shtus”, etc. (you know who you are): please indicate the level of your formal scientific education, and/or whether you have studied (hard) science on a graduate level.

cantoresq,

while i could be wrong, i have never heard that the Rov zt”l allowed/did not object to his talmidim taking pulpits without a mechitza (although this practice was not uncommon some years ago. it is known that Rav Yakov Kaminetzky zt”l did allow some of his talmidim to take such pulpits, under very strict guidelines, i.e. they had to daven b’yichidus before the service, they should sit separately from the mixed congregation, etc.). on the other hand, the Rov’s shitta on hearing shofar on R”H from a conservative/reform shul (better to not hear shofar at all) is well known.

azi,

R’ Ilson is not a R”Y at RIETS (i believe he was offered the position but declined). he learned by the Rov for 10-15 years, and he is known amongst the Rov’s talmidim as being one of the most brilliant among them. anyone who spent time in the Rov’s shiur in the 70’s knows that the Rov thought very highly of him. he has his own yeshiva and kollel in meah shearim, so he is not as well known in the US.

to mw13-

to clarify, i include myself in the ‘yeshiva community’ i was describing (which seems to have lost its bearings over the years with regard to middos). as i explained above, i was ch”v not trying to “bash” some other group, but rather to discuss what i (and others) perceive to be a problem within our own communities (and by extension, within ourselves). i think that many of the topics in the ‘coffee room’ can be classified as discussions of problems within our communities, which is certainly important as long as we remain civil, respectful, and constructive.

chuck-

it’s funny you refer to me as a “MO “kanoi” who “vilifies and degrades Chareidim” – i probably went to the same “chareidi” (we never had that word back then) yeshivos many of the posters here probably went to. most people would classify my dress as “yeshivish” (for the sake of reference, not because it really matters), and i consider myself a part of the “chareidi” community.

the ideas i discuss come from a yeshivishe’ background (not MO), and CH”V i would never want to degrade our communities, rather to be upfront about what is REALLY going on. there are many of us who are a bit older who realize that many, many things about our communities have changed over the years – many for better, and, unfortunately, many for worse. YWN and the ‘coffee room’, to some degree, allow members of the “yeshiva world” (whatever that means) to discuss these issues.

one of the issues that may have gotten worse over the years might be the deterioration in middos among the yeshiva community, especially with regard to other yiddin. someone sincerely makes a request that we should discuss matters with respect to one another, and he is bombarded with attacks on his honesty, etc., and ‘svoros’ explaining to him why he is wrong. is a call to improve our ‘bein adam lechaveiro’ truly so offensive to you??

to the original poster – yashar koach for your inspiring and much needed words!

its just incredibly sad to see that various posters here have already attacked Tal, suggesting that he is a liar, and further attempting to justify much of the rhetoric that goes on here which essentially boils down to this sentiment: “if you don’t hold exactly like me/my rebbe, what you are doing is treif/assur/you have no chelek l’olam ha’ba (R”L)”

if the posters on this board really think that this type of ka’naus is what HKBH wants from us (as opposed to the way of respectfulness and pleasentness – ‘darchei noam’ described by Tal), i don’t know what else to say, but klal yisroel is in big trouble. i would be curious as to what yeshiva these posters attended, and ask them what rosh yeshiva/godol would give his haskama to such an approach which seeks to villify and degrade all members of klal yisroel who are not exactly like me instead of treating them with simple kovod ha’briyos (let alone ahavas yisroel!!).

it seems that after championing/defending the institutionalized kollel system for every jewish married man, joseph suddenly doesn’t have much to say on this topic.

i can only conclude, since ‘shtika ke’hoda’ah’, that joseph has since been convinced, and how agrees with myself and most of the other posters here that the kollel system is no longer sustainable, and must be drastically reformed for the good of all of klal yisroel.

well then, joesph, i am willing to say that i disagree with the story you cited above (seemingly as proof that all men should be in kollel indefinitely and not prepare or pursue parnassah opportunities). i have outlined my reasons in my last post.

do YOU (joseph) agree or disagree with the ‘svoro’ that you cited, which calls for not keeping any mitzvah, shitta, etc. which has ever caused individuals to stray from yiddishkeit – YES or NO??

“the more emuna you have the less hishtadlus you have to do, so If you truly believe HaShem will support he will.” – boredatwork

this excellently sums up the common contemporary chareidi perspective on life. it also excellently sums up much of what is wrong with today’s chareidi society.

the clear implication of this ideal (where it comes from, i have no idea, please enlighten me bored@work – and “my seminary teacher said so” is not good enough) which creates an inverse relationship between “emunah” and hishtadlus (so more emuna = less hishtadlus, and more hishtadlus = less emunah) creates an air of superiority among those who perform less hishtadlus (a.k.a. work), and encourages them to look down upon those who are performing hishtadlus (i.e. working) in order to live.

i challenge anyone to HONESTLY deny that “work” has not become a dirty word in today’s yeshivishe’ velt, and that those who work for a living are not viewed as spiritually inferior (or having less “emunah” in bored@work’s equation) than those who do not.

when i was young i thought that “emunah” had to do with what was in your heart. i didn’t realize it was all based on how many hours a day you do (or don’t) work.

the result of bored@work’s inverse proportion is that one must necessarily conclude that all of our chachamim throughout the doros (tanaim, amoraim, rishonim, and achronim, too many to list)who did work must have been deficient in their “emunah”, since many of them worked. accordingly, the average kollel guy in lakewood or mir, etc., must have much more “emunah” than the rambam, chofetz chaim, etc., ever did.

rabbosai – have we gone mad??

i suggest that those of you (joseph, etc.) who seem to insist that evolution is somehow “assur” (which, as wolfish points out above generally indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory of evolution) should take a look at the Ramban at the beginning of parshas bereishis. there, the ramban says that the word ‘bara’ (as in “bereshis bara…” refers to a creation of ‘yesh me’ayin’ (‘something from nothing’), and he says that this term is used only by the creation of ‘shamayim’ and ‘aretz’. the ramban goes on to say that hashem essentially created these two formless elements of ‘shamayim’ and ‘aretz’, and in subsequent days these two elements were formed and molded into other creations (but these later creations were not ‘yesh me’ayin’ as shamayim and aretz were).

while i acknowledge in advance there may be questions on this ramban, i suggest that joseph and others here take the time to study this ramban before ranting that evolution is ‘assur’ and ‘krum’.

while i think your idea of kosher hangouts is a good one, i don’t think it is THE solution. i don’t think that the younger generation has had it with yiddishkeit because there aren’t enough hangouts (although this is a start).

quite simply, kids today aren’t stupid. they understand so much more than we give them credit for. and they can sense the hypocrisy that pervades the lives of many of those who are supposed to be their role models. what should kids think when supposedly ehrliche people are committing crimes, being hauled off to prison, etc.? when people are more concerned about the color of a boy’s shirt than what is in his head or in his heart? when our first reaction to anything is not ‘what is the right thing to do’ or ‘what would hashem want’ but rather ‘what will everyone else think?’ or ‘how will this effect this or that shidduch’?

let’s face it. our ‘yeshiva world’ has become so much like the greater society around us – we are so much more concerned with images, appearances, and reputations than we are about truth, reality, and sincerity. its really no wonder that we judge so much about a person now by the way he dresses, the color of his shirt, the length of a skirt, sleeves, etc., just as our society judges one another by similarly superficial characteristics. is this what yiddishkeit is all about?

our kids see right through this charade. they realize that most of us do not REALLY practice what we preach. we go through so many of the motions and dress, talk, and act a certain way in order to ensure that no one in our society will look at us any differently. they realize that so often our actions are dictated not by the ratzon hashem, but by the ratzon of those around us.

our kids aren’t dumb. they realize what yiddishkeit means (and doesn’t mean) to their parents and their communities. and they are sickened by the thought of perpetuating such a perverted and hypocritical system. can you blame them?