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I think you are confusing harm reduction with incentives.
Is the following an incentive or harm reduction. On friday night, the kid says I am going to hang out with my friends (And you know that means activities including smoking pot) or I am going to watch TV (Or Netflix or whatever). Sitting at the shabbos singing zemiros is not an option you are given and in fact if you enforce that choice, they might leave without asking you to go hang with their friends smoking a joint
Which do you choose? Is it really an incetive to let them watch TV (Or Netflix on their ipad with 4g that you cannot control with the router) or harm reduction
I find it ironic that Joseph does not belive stories about the Lubavicher Rebbe, but will belive any story about a Litvish or any other Chassidic rebbe, no matter how outlandish
His grandaughter even joined the IDF
Its not like anyone in lakewood or KJ doesnt go OTD because there is such strong ruchnious there
Grills and BBQing is considering more of a male domain and those products are marketed towards men
Did Rav Schach disown his son and grandchildren?
I believe that food is considered to be a taivah. If it’s not coming from a taivadik place, then it’s fine.
Writing is not a taivah.Where did you get such an idea? You do not get “extra credit” for eating bread and water vs smoked brisket with a chardonay
Regardless of what Joseph says, licensed private schools are not allowed to inflict corporal punishment. Of course unlicensed dont care
If your 2 year old is not out working 9-9 at the factory, then hop to it and get him working and make his keep
Corporal punishment in schools is ILLEGAL in NY
New York’s Broad Ban
As part its education regulations, New York prohibits the use of corporal punishment in a wide range of schools, including:all state-operated or state-supported schools
charter schools
approved private schools
approved preschool programs
approved out-of-state day schools and residential schools, and
registered nonpublic nursery and K-12 schools.
(N.Y. Comp. Codes Rules & Regs., tit. 8, § 19.5(a)(1).)Unfortuantly Corporal punishment is still done in many charedi yeshivas and Im not even sure its legal in NY anymore under any circumstances
Can an ehrlicher yid be a car enthusiast? or a sports fan?
One could say those things are Bittul Torah
However it takes about the same amount of time to eat gefilte as it does a piece of Sushi
Why not?
There is nothing wrong with enjoying good kosher food.
It is not a bigger Mitzvah to eat Kugel and Chulent than to eat at Izzy’s bbq. Its the same Mitzvah
The real problem here is this discussion is being made in a theory. We can say whatever we want for theorictical cases, but in actual cases we might feel or behave differently
Many times the parents feel intimidated by the Rebbe and the School and they feel if they speak out (with just cause) , It is not the bad Rebbe or Bad Menahal who will pay the price, but rather they will suffer
You dont always remember your best teacher, BUT you always remember the worst
I am not an expert on OTD and frankly nobody knows the “real reason” why kids go OTD.
But if I had to take a guess, something about yiddishkete they hate and it turns them complely off. A simple example is a kid has trouble learning Gemorah , maybe he is dyslexic and the rebbe instead of trying to help the kid. punishes him. Over time the kid begin to hate Learning and gemorah
Maybe the kid is bullied in school , maybe even bullied by a Rebbe’s child and see’s that nothing is done and begins to hate school and hate the yiddishkeite that goes with that school
Avram,
part of my response was not aimed at you, althought it might have seemed like it, you did not advocate throwing people out, but others did.
Ultimatly as a parent you have to make decisions sometimes on what path is “least harm”. If you know your kids friends and generally think they are ok except not religious (Ie college kids at good university) then maybe it would be better to let them be Mechalal shabbos with them, But if you know the kids to be basically dregs of society, Smoking pot and otherwise engaging in “non-productive” or even criminal activities maybe its best to let them stay home.
Being a teen is tough and figuring out your place in society is tough. I know I never want to be a teen again if I had the chance
And as far as television, there would need to be a television in the home for there to be television watching. I’m not planning to buy one, and I don’t feel guilty about that.
Who said you bought a TV, I just said they were watching TV (Or Netflix) an 18 year can have their own money and spend as they want. They could have a TV or netflix that you did not purchase
A non shomer shabbat kid is going to do something Mechalal Shabbos either in front of you or behind your back and what if the kid says to you I am going to watch a movie on Netflix and if you dont agree , I am going “somewhere else”. No he wasnt Mechalel shabbos in your house, he was Mechalal shabbos elsewhere
RV’s are not that cheap to rent (An RV costs several hundred thousand dollars) and it not free to park them either (Except Wal-Mart parking lots) , while it sounds like a good idea, its not as cheap or easy as you think
Some communties do exile others. A certain OTD author was excomunicated from the Skverer community. However there isnt one community anymore and over time Spinoza has actually become more powerful than those who excommunicated him, so it really doesnt work anyway
Avram
Define Children. Its much harder to make rules on children over 18 as you really dont have any leverage on them, they can just leave. I am guessing many people feel its better for their OTD child to be home friday night watching TV or surfing the web than hanging out on the streets and doing who knows what.
I cant speak for anyone here, but if someone threw out their OTD kid for not dressing properly, using nivel peh and being Mechalel Shabbos and eating treif and that kid went out and did Heroin and ODed and died , I dont know how many could forgive themselves
Whatever reason Spinoza was put in cherem for (Its actually not exactly known) . he was put in Cherem for some crime against Judaism either heresy (Most likely) or whatever, All they could do was exile him and couldnt do anymore
I am not a lawyer, but there is a concept in secular law called Common-law-spouse. Meaning 2 people who arent legally married but are together.
I dont know about every states, but certainly in some states common-law-spouses have the same rights as legally married spouses
The most famous Frei Jew of Pre-modern times was Spinoza and all the jewish community could do was exile him
There are alot more Widows than Widowers usually because men have shorter lifespans than women and the husband is usually older than the wife so there is a severe shortage of older single men
In Europe if someone became Mechlall Shabbos and converted to Christianity there was nothing the Beis Din could do, they could only punish someone whom the authorities considered a jew, if the authorities considered the person a christan there was nothing they could do
Then Yair Hoffman also did not read the Sefer
Dealing with Children Who Have Gone Off the Derech – a Response to the Kiryas Yoel Publication
As a consequence, they have ruled that it is forbidden to show affection to and to attempt to bring closer those who have left Torah observance. They have further ruled that it is forbidden to accept Baalei Teshuvah from among those who have initially left the path of Torah observance. They forbid to ask about their welfare and to maintain dialogue or conversation with them.
According to the opinion of the Satmar Dayanim even if one does tshuva, they still cannot be let back in and forgiven. Where in yiddishkeite do we have an idea that even if one does tshuva that hashem doesnt forgive (We are talking about Bein Adom L’Makom not Bein Adom L’Chavero) Isnt that the idea of aseret Ymei TSHUVA, isnt that the idea of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur that we can do tshuva.
Are they creating a chumra even hashem doesnt want?
Edited
Without DNA its unlikely any extinct Animals could be resurected. We have DNA for Wooly Mammoths and Maybe Dodo Birds. We do not have DNA for Dinosaurs
Generally you catch more flies with Honey than with vinegar. There is no guarantee that being more tolerant will be more successful than being tough. However if someone hates shabbos, making it more miserable for them likely wont work
Parents do have the right to make rules and regualtions in the house, but a smart parent knows when to give in and when to give the kid some freedom.
For example there is a story in the Faranak Margolese book, where a teenager refused to wear a hat and the father insisted he wear a hat. needless to say it became a struggle between the 2 and while the father won the battle, he lost the war
NO ONE WOULD WANT THEIR SON IN A T-SHIRT AND SHORTS OR A GIRL DRESSED INAPPROPRIATELY SITTING AT THE SHABBOS TABLE.
Many times this is about wearing a Black hat at the table or the girl wearing a skirt 4 inches below the knee . Things that are minhagim , Strong minhagim no doubt, but not Halacha
Paganism today is not the same paganism of ancient times. There is no more human sacrafice or “worshipping” them in the ways of Baal Peor.
People today generally have more compassion, while there was the Soviets , nazis , Khamer Rouge, they are more the exception than the rule
Dinosaurs probably not, but maybe other extinct animals like a Wooly Mammoth or Dodo Bird
“The very same S”A that tells us that, today, we are to (physically if necessary) punish wayward Yidden who violate בין אדם למקום.”
Mods,
I realize that Joseph exists to troll but this really crosses the line. To post this kind of statement, even in jest, demonstrates a proclivity to aberrant behavior. Please, contact the authorities immediately so they can investigate and ensure that he isn’t acting violently against family members!
Anyone who takes Joseph seriously, needs to get back to the Beis Medrash. He is what makes this place entertaining
Forget the kippa for a second; that just politicizes it. If he reduces his observance to a minimum, that’s not finding his own derech, that’s doing what’s easier.
For some people they love Chumras and feel it makes them closer to hashem, for others its a major turn off and drives them away
If you want to define success as learning a whole day, then of course for those who can’t do that, the system fails them.
However, under any normal definition of success, which includes klei kodesh who aren’t learning a whole day, and ehliche balabatim who are shomrei Torah umitzvos and koveia itim, saying that the system has failed is demonstrably false.
The problem is those who cannot learn are made to feel substandard and this is before Kollel, this is when they are younger . Tell a 14 year old who cannot learn all day he is a failure and punish him for it , See where that takes you
Chinuch succeeds for those students who fit the mold, However for those who do not fit the mold it has failed.
For example for those who are able to learn all day, its a success, but for those who cannot it has failed and has no other alternative for them
If someone were transgressing secular laws, e.g. committing murder or robbery, would a tolerant attitude toward them be acceptable? Why should we more lenient with halachic transgressors?
Hashem always accepts Tshuva, People not so much. If you break shabbos and really do Tshuva Hashem will forgive you, however if you kill someone you really cannot do tshuva for what you did, the people might never forgive you and you cant undo the damage you did
A Troll is a Nordic Myth
There are no statistics and I doubt there ever will be . I suspect more dont return than do return.
JMO if a family member R’L has gone OTD, you should maintain a good relationship with them, but keep some house rules (Like no bringing in Pork into the house or using the smartphone on shabbos in front of everyone) most will be respectful of the house rules
If you R’L have a non-jewish grandchild, I have no advice for you
Your whole argument against the draft is that those who learn torah should not go to the army as they are protecting Klal Yisroel, Since these people are not learning and may even be doing danger to themselves or others.
The charedi Oilem seems not to want to take responsibility for these people “They arent charedim and they wont listen to anyone anyway” , so someone needs to take responsibility for them and save them from themselves
Yeah the shmad of the disciple of the army vs the shmad of the streets with drugs and other Juvenille deliquencies
Its not like these Malcontents torah is protecting Klal Yisroel, they arent even yeshiva
Zdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.
Unfortuantly Many seem in denial of this including some leaders and shown with the Litzmann resgination
Some malcontent from Tel Aviv goes into the army and guess what, They shape him up real fast. If the army can shape up some hedonist from Tel Aviv , shouldnt they be able to shape up some malcontent from Bnei Brak?
This hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work and look to the resignation of the Health Minister over Chilul Shabbos, not only did he not get what he wanted, he had to crawl back begging to be let back in the government
And protests against Movie theaters did not only not close them down, MORE people attended them because of the protests
Nobody stopped being Mechalel Shabbos because someone threw a stone
There are plenty of “frum” people on drugs and booze
here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape, If these people are as malcontents as people here say they are. a few months in boot camp will shape them up real quickly. Those push ups get real old real fast
Some people seem to have a different definition of Charedi
If someone is the child of a Rosh Yeshiva and a mother who is a Tzdekeas and the whole family is very helig, But this person R’L lies to his father about going to Yeshiva, sneaks out all the time and hangs out on the street with his friends while smoking pot and other juvenile deliquiences , but dresses charedi and goes home to his parents. is that person Charedi?
Many charedim inside the community are not willing to call such people charedi, but people outside the community are. and IMO those people are charedi, they might be charedim in name only, but as long as they live in the community and basically think of themselves as part of the community then they are part of the community. If they wish to leave, let them move to Tel Aviv with the rest of the hedonists, cut the peyos, drop the Levush and then people wont count them as part of the community, but until then, they are part of the community