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yytzParticipant
There is nothing wrong with your question, but this is not the place to ask it. Try googling (I did so quickly and found one Orthodox rabbi criticizing circuses), and perhaps Mi Yodea (stackexchange).
yytzParticipantPatur: Wouldn’t that mean you don’t believe in anything? Maybe instead you should say you’re “Orthodox without adjectives”?
yytzParticipantCorrect me if I’m wrong but from a Modern Orthodox perspective, anyone to the right of them (not chassidish or sephardic) is Yeshivish. But many of these “Yeshivish” people, like yourself, reserve the word Yeshivish for “right-wing Yeshivish,” while calling themselves “frum but not Yeshivish” or maybe “Modern Yeshivish” or “left-wing Yeshivish.”
yytzParticipant“I don’t believe anyone should ever hear pieces of a story, even many pieces, and then turn around and say definitively, ‘that man was incompetent.'”
While I overall agree with what you’re saying, I just wanted to point out that we do something similar when we vote, or have any political opinion whatsoever.
Few people are really enough of an expert to have an opinion on most public policy questions, or the question of which politician is most competent. So we have no choice but to read a few articles and make up our minds. (That is, unless we always vote for a particular party because we think it embodies Torah values more, or something, but that decision too is based on incomplete information.)
If King Shlomo were to write Koheles today I have no doubt there would be a long section about politics and how it is the vanity of vanities. Especially now with the ubiquity of blowhard talking-heads with extreme and arrogant opinions on everything, individual Americans are encouraged to spend much of their time reading others’ misinformed opinions and spouting their own.
Is this really what we’re meant to do on this earth? Is this really compatible with engaging in as much Torah, teshuvah, mitzvos, middos-improvement, chesed, etc. as we can? Or, more kabbalistically, achieving our neshama’s tikkun in this gilgul?
Of course not. It is arrogance, vanity and striving after wind! But try telling that to the millions of political-junky chatter-boxes on Twitter and Facebook. Modern culture has nearly ruined us. Let’s push away the fashions of the day and focus on our souls, improving ourselves and the world in whatever concrete ways we can.
None of this is to say people shouldn’t become experts on particular topics and then become activists who work for practical changes in that area. All power to them! But sitting around pontificating about all the issues of the day is meaningless.
yytzParticipantThanks — that’s an interesting example!
yytzParticipantSyag, yes, good points. I think in psychology they have words for this kind of thing, like confirmation bias or egocentric bias. There’s also an innate tendency to see people from other groups as all the same, while appreciating all the diversity within one’s own group.
And whenever there’s a sense that one’s group is under attack from the outside, people tend to revert to hard-core group loyalty, “My country right or wrong” and such, whether or not they’re right.
Germany even claimed that it started WWII in self-defense, as crazy as that sounds (perhaps because people can’t help but rally around their leader in times of external threat).
yytzParticipantIn what I read about the autopsy, the autopsy did not resolve the question of whether Brown was charging at Wilson. So unless the news story is saying the opposite of what the autopsy report said, your assertion appears to be incorrect.
I didn’t say I disagreed with the decision. All I said is that it may have been a close case. As far as I know they made a reasonable decision.
Like you, I am bothered by people’s tendency to prejudge a situation and decide that things must be as they imagine them. Unfortunately this phenomenon–choosing sides and then interpreting or selectively creating or ignoring facts to support your side–seems to be the main factor between the world’s insane obsession with bashing Israel.
yytzParticipantSyag, how do you know the racial identity of the witnesses? Anyway, there were a lot of witnesses, and most of them did not really corroborate Wilson’s story.
However, some did, and if these witnesses were believable, then that creates enough doubt to justify the decision not to indict. It all comes down to who you believe (a judgment one is not supposed to make on the basis of race, quite rightly).
In law there is certainly such a thing as a close cases. Prosecutors and judges encounter them all the time. Does reasonable doubt exist? Reasonable suspicion? Is a contract term unconscionable? I’m not saying this is necessarily a close case, because I haven’t looked at all the evidence, but it seems like it might have been, since again it has to do with how many witnesses said what, who is believable, etc.
yytzParticipantPoster: It all has to do with which version of the scenario people find most plausible. There were a lot of witnesses, who all said varying things.
After the altercation in the police car (in which Brown allegedly tried to reach for the poiceman’s gun), Brown ran away. What happened next is unclear. (Goq is right that Brown would probably still be alive if he didn’t confront the police officer, but that’s another story.)
Some witnesses say Wilson shot Brown while he was running away. If this is correct, he should have been indicted, because an unarmed guy fleeing from you is not a legally-justifiable reason for killing them, even if he just tried to grab your gun.
Other witnesses said Brown was moving toward Wilson when Wilson shot him. At least one witnesses (and Wilson himself) said Brown was running at him and getting close to him while he shot him. Wilson said he feared for his life.
Many people are inclined to believe the other witnesses, because of the sad history of racist violence in America. I don’t know which version of the story is true. Both sides sound fairly plausible.
Given the widely varying witness statements, it was understandable to decide not to indict (though it probably could have gone either way). From the prosecutor’s point of view, I don’t want to indict unless I think the person is actually guilty and deserves to be punished.
There are riots because in many people’s minds the decision not to indict is a judgment that what Wilson did was right, and sends a message that police can kill young black men even without a good reason (as they certainly have before) and get away with it. Rioting has long been a way in which people vent their anger and frustration. Of course it doesn’t make much sense, and hurts the community (though sometimes such events might inspire authorities to enact new policies that improve the situation on the ground.)
yytzParticipantIt seems that Mishpacha is basically Yeshivish, while Ami tries to appeal to all the Orthodox (though Modern Orthodox isn’t represented a huge amount).
Some of the Ami editorials may seem very right-wing but I think overall there’s a variety of material and viewpoints.
yytzParticipantMake strict rules for yourself. For example, make it a rule never to check news websites at work. Also, you could limit yourself to 5 minutes a day of reading news. Perhaps give yourself one day a week where you can spend an hour reading news.
Most news reading is not necessary or useful at all. You’re right to be concerned about this. The book the Four Hour Work Week advocates cutting out news almost completely, in order to improve productivity.
yytzParticipantThey are a strange cult. They believe they are immortal and will never die; that is why the leader (who died recently) had to be excommunicated.
yytzParticipantLior: But some poskim allow abortions for other reasons as well (even such as mamzerim, mental health, etc.) and such exemptions wouldn’t be allowed under pro-life legislation.
I’m highly sympathetic to pro-life camp, but it seems problematic to think of implementing laws that outlaw the implementation of certain halachic opinions by recognized poskim. Ideally, shouldn’t people be legally able to abide the rulings of their Rav? Isn’t that why Rav Moshe himself said we should be pro-life?
As far as toevah marriage is concerned, there’s no way to overturn it in the current climate, because the majority of NY state public approves of it. If we want to change it we have to change the population’s mind first, outside the elections process. Given this reality, it makes sense to approve candidates even we disagree with them on pretty fundamental things — we just have to decide what the most important issues (that is, practical issues with a change of being changed in teh near future) are to us, and vote or endorse accordingly.
yytzParticipantRebYid, you’re right, and there are many sources (from halacha to stories about tzaddikim) that support what you’re saying. You should read the book Vision of Eden by R’ Dovid Sears. A version is available for free online, I think.
yytzParticipantKitzur Shulchan Aruch 29:2 also says one should always be happy. Not sure if a similar statement is also in the original S’A”.
yytzParticipantSimcha: There are many problems with a two-state solution — security (rockets on Jerusalem are practically guaranteed if there is a state in the West Bank), fairness (they plan to forbid any Jews from living in their state), etc. — and there is much to be said for a one-state solution. See Caroline Glick’s recent book on the latter, for example.
October 14, 2014 12:34 am at 12:34 am in reply to: Mitzvah Gedola L'hiyos B'simcha … Tamid? #1036511yytzParticipantIf you’re discussing a sentence from seforim, it is best to do so in context. So here are some selections from Rebbe Nachman’s teachings on joy, including the famous sentence that’s the subject of this thread. This is just a small sampling.
“It is a great mitzva to be happy at all times. Be determined to keep away from depression and aim to be happy constantly. Happiness is the remedy for all kinds of diseases because many illnesses are caused by depression. You must be resourceful in order to make yourself happy. Often you must do something a little bit crazy in order to make yourself happy.”
“When a person is depressed, his intellect and his mind go into exile. This makes it very hard for him to concentrate his mind on teshuva, returning to God. The main reason why people are far from God is that they do not stop to consider what the main purpose of their existence is. But when someone is happy his mind becomes settled and he is able to understand things clearly. Joy is freedom. When a person fills his mind with joy, his intellect becomes freed from its exile. He can control his mind and intellect however he wants so as to concentrate on his goal and return to God.”
“When someone is happy all day it is easier for him to spend an hour or so with a broken heart, talking to God and pouring out his heart like water before Him. After a broken heart comes joy. The test of whether your heart was really broken is if afterwards you feel joy.”
“You should constantly center your thoughts on contemplating the root of all things. This is the source of all that is good and all joys. You will feel an overwhelming joy, because when one contemplates this root which is wholly good then everything good and joyous is merged into one and radiates with abundant light.”
“Most important of all, you must be happy while you are praying. Be sure always to pray with joy. The same applies to carrying out the mitzvot. You should be especially joyous on Shabbat and Yom Tov. Even on weekdays it is a great mitzva to be happy always.”
October 7, 2014 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm in reply to: stopping with a chavrusa because he smokes. #1035146yytzParticipantNo. Search for “third-hand smoke” (in both Google and Google Scholar) and you’ll see that some evidence seems to show a significant risk (though there is not much evidence yet.)
yytzParticipantDon’t worry about whether you are “normal.” Don’t compare yourself to other people (see some of the recent books of R’ Shalom Arush for a lot of material on this, for example Garden of Knowledge (or is it Wisdom)). Everyone has their own challenges. If you think perhaps you could be happier, then try to increase your joy. Pray for it, try to cultivate joy in the present moment, read books about emunah, etc.
yytzParticipant2querty: Of the many Breslov leaders today, the vast majority support and encourage travel to Uman for Rosh HaShanah. There are a few who don’t (popular Breslover singer-songwriter Yosef Karduner — check his music out on youtube! — was initially mekareved by one of them, but now believes in going to Uman). Although Rebbe Nachman didn’t leave a “rebbe” as successor, it was clear that Reb Noson was his successor, and since then there have been a group of Breslov gedolim in each generation.
Ivory: Yes, Rebbe Nachman emphasized very strongly the importance of coming to him on Rosh HaShana, and of continuing to visit him after his death.
I’m not sure whether there are any Breslov leaders today who say that *everyone* should try to go. The first thing to do is to study and put into practice Rebbe Nachman’s teachings. If you feel a strong connection to these teachings, and they are a big influence on you, then it may be a good idea for you to go one day.
The only situations in which I think it would be a good idea for a person without a strong connection to Breslov to go is if it would either 1) help strengthen a person who has lost his belief in or enthusiasm for Yiddishkeit, or 2) encourage a person on the path to becoming completely observant. I’ve read of cases of people who had been observant for years but weren’t “feeling it,” but who had an amazing spiritual experience in Uman that greatly improved their subsequent experience with Yiddishkeit (one of the examples I’m thinking of is a woman who visited Uman with a group at a time other than Rosh Hashana).
yytzParticipantRav S.R. Hirsch wrote the following:
“A person whose reason leads him to differ with the reasoning
of one of Chazal on any agadic topic is not considered an apostate or a heretic, especially since their opinions vary on many statements, and since there is no rule, ‘The Halacha is like So and So” in matters of Agada as there is in Halacha.'”
yytzParticipantTLIK: For starters, see “Antidepressant Drug Effects and Depression Severity: Patient-Level Meta-analysis” in JAMA, which found no effect for mild or moderate depression.
On the issue of over-prescription and not reporting negative studies, see “Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption” in the NY Review of Books.
yytzParticipantThe little I know: I would agree with what you’re saying only with regards to illnesses like psychosis and schizophrenia.
When it comes to things like lack of concentration (ADD), depression and anxiety, there are many observers who reasonably believe, on scientific grounds alone, that medications are over-prescribed for these conditions.
The idea that anyone experiencing depression should be on medications, and that this is the only way to relieve the depression, is not accurate. Changing one’s thinking patterns (whether through secular therapy, religious counseling or other means), diet, lifestyle, exercise, social interactions, volunteering, writing in a journal, etc. also have profound effects on mood, and in many studies the magnitude of the effect is similar to or greater than that of medications.
Recent meta-analyses of articles measuring the effects of psychiatric medications for depression concluded that most of them have virtually no effect. There is documented corruption within drug companies, throwing away studies that show their drugs have bad side effects or have no effect. Some medications actually increase the risk of suicide (and even have that printed on the package under federal law).
Medications may be called for in many circumstances, but there are certainly grounds for skepticism, for believing that they are over-prescribed, and for considering them a last resort rather than the first line of defense for mood or concentration problems.
yytzParticipantOrthodox Jewish attitudes toward psychotherapy and psychiatric medications run the gamut. There are those who have no problem with them whatsoever — there are Orthodox Jews who are mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists, for example.
Then there are others who are completely against them. Some have come up with their own forms of therapy (based on chassidus, for example Zev Ballen). It’s possible their forms of therapy work as well or better than secular forms, since a lot of therapy involves trying to replace negative thought patterns with positive ones, and we have a long history of that in Yiddishkeit as well. (Gamzu l’tovah, “think well and it will be well,” emunah/bitachon, etc.) Numerous studies show that the positive psychological and health impact of prayer and meditation. (A study showed that psychology professors had the highest rate of atheism compared to all other academic disciplines, 80% or so — this something to consider as well, because therapists can influence their clients.)
And then there are those in the middle, who may be skeptical of some aspects of psychology and the use of medication, but in a case of great need would be comfortable using a good (hopefully frum psychologist) or medications as a last resort.
My own view is that medications should be used far less than they are, because of side effects, dependency, and the evidence showing that non-medical interventions (exercise, meditation, prayer, even dark chocolate) work as well or better than medications in improving mood.
yytzParticipantSusceptibility to anxiety is to a large degree caused by genes (are any of your parents or grandparents anxious?) and environment (did you suffer from traumatic experiences, drink a lot of coffee, use marijuana, etc.) I wouldn’t say you could necessarily blame it on a particular midah like bitachon.
By all means, you should work on your emuna/bitachon, as should pretty much everyone. Read R’ Shalom Arush’s seforim, other related seforim, daven at length in your own words for greater bitachon, etc. Avoid any disputes or arguments with other people, even on the Internet, because this will cause worry.
But you should also do things that are generally recommended for anxiety.
For example, stop drinking caffeine for a while, even dark chocolate (or at least switch from coffee to green tea). Engage in a few minutes of (kosher) meditation daily to calm your mind (there are tons of studies on how effective this is), or better yet make your davening meditative. Do some exercise in the morning or mid-day, especially aerobic exercise.
If you are worrying a lot, try to stop yourself by reassuring yourself that everything will be for the best, and by starting to think about something else. There are many books (secular as well as Jewish) about how to stop such thinking patterns.
Also, try not to put yourself in anxiety-provoking situations.
Finally, I know from friends’ experiences that Chinese medicine (ie, acupuncture, acupressure, etc.) is extremely effective for anxiety. Hatzlacha!
September 8, 2014 12:47 am at 12:47 am in reply to: An Israeli want to live in North America / UK #1031454yytzParticipantYes, some parts of NY are safe, and NYC is overall safer than other big cities in the US. But NY is an exceptionally unaffordable city. And Brooklyn, where most of NY’s Jews live, has hundreds of murders a year.
Israel’s murder rate is 1.8/100,000, while the US’s is over twice as high, 4.7/100. The US’s rate of robbery is four times that of Israel. NYC’s robbery rate is 243/100,000, while Israel’s is one-sixth of that, 36/100,000.
The traffic fatality rate (in terms of the number of people killed in car accidents per capita) is also much higher in the US.
September 7, 2014 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm in reply to: An Israeli want to live in North America / UK #1031452yytzParticipantWhy are you drawn to the Yekkes? Because of their minhagim? Or the derech of Rav Hirsch? Either way, the Yekkes are a pretty small community in the US, and it’s hard to understand why someone would want to leave Eretz Yisrael to join them (or to study in a Litvish Yeshivah, of which they are tons in Israel).
Compared to Israel, the US is not a very good place to be a frum Jew. Day school tuition is much more expensive, and there are far fewer choices in terms of schools. If your children go off the derech (which happens to even the best of families, Rachmana litzlan), they will likely marry gentiles and give you non-Jewish grandchildren, while in Israel they would most likely marry Jews and have Jewish grandchildren. US inner-city violent and property crime is much worse than Hamas rockets (and most big Jewish communities are in such areas). Real estate is crazily expensive in nearly all big Jewish communities; otherwise, you can live in very isolated Jewish communities with few Jewish amenities or frum families. There are few kosher restaurants outside of NY.
Even if there are not very many Yekkes in Israel, I’m sure there are similar communities, and if you’re looking for people interested in Rav Hirch’s ideas, I’m sure you’ll find them. There are so many Jewish communities to explore in Israel, from the chardalim, the moderate Anglo left-wing Yeshivish, the neo-hippie Chavakuk (Chabad-Breslov-Kook), the “new” charedim (chardashim, blue shirts), etc. Perhaps you would be comfortable among people who are somewhere in between MO and Yeshivish, RWMO or left-wing Yeshivish, of which there are many in Israel. There has to be something for everyone in Israel — there is something new every day.
Anyway, sorry for the rant…just thought I’d throw out some thoughts.
yytzParticipantYou can always email him (see his blog for his email address); he always writes back.
September 3, 2014 2:16 am at 2:16 am in reply to: Do people with Ruach HaKodesh exist today? #1031129yytzParticipantIf by “ruach hakodesh” you mean some amount of psychic powers, sure, there are rabbis alive today about whom such stories are told, by credible people. The only examples I can think of off the top of my head are R’ Shalom Arush (who has sometimes told people specifically what their problem was before they said anything) or the Sudilkover Rebbe (who somehow knows things about a person by looking at their Hebrew name). There are many more people believed to have such abilities, especially in Israel (of course, not all of them are necessarily real…)
yytzParticipantIf you just want to read it, perhaps you could get it through your college or public library, through inter-library loan? I checked one old English translation of that sefer (not sure if it’s the same translation you’re seeking) out from a library a few years ago.
yytzParticipantSure, if you really intend to make aliyah just for the free education, and then leave right afterward and never come back (and thus never do your army or national service), then there’s something dishonest about that. If you really never come back, then in your case, Israel has gained nothing (besides your consumer spending when you were there, I suppose.)
But in practice, I bet Israel would love it if a lot of people did that. The more Jews who are Israeli citizens, the better, since they can always come back. Someone who made aliyah only briefly is still much likely to stay forever, or to come back permanently one day, than someone who never did. For example, they know there’s a good chance that while you’re there, you’ll fall in love with an Israeli, get a good job offer, or get swept up in Israeli patriotism or whatever, and end up staying despite your initial plans.
Also, if you have an open mind, and think that you might stay in Israel long term, or might not, depending on how things go, then I wouldn’t see making aliyah as wrong or dishonest in the slightest (even if it’s motivated to a large extent by the lower tuition). Lots of olim come back. That’s normal nowadays, and a lot of them probably knew that if they couldn’t find a job or had other troubles they would end up going back.
yytzParticipantDavening with a minyan and being on time for seder are serious issues, but whether you should slowly commit suicide — which is really what smoking is (see R’ Avigdor Miller on this issue) — is obviously a matter of life or death! It’s no exaggeration to say it could kill you, too — second-hand smoke is a serious cause of cancer that kills a lot of people, spouses included! It’s also a chillul Hashem, assuming he smokes in public — he’s devoting himself full-time to the Torah and yiddishkeit but he’s enslaved to a disgusting habit even the most uneducated of the non-Jews know is deadly? If I were you, I would put aside everything else and put all your efforts into getting him to stop smoking.
yytzParticipantNone other than Noam Chomsky wrote in a recent article (criticizing the BDS movement) that Israeli discrimination against Israeli Arabs, while it exists, is much less worse than American discrimination against minorities. I think this is true — sure, there is probably some employment discrimination against Israeli Arabs and other forms of discrimination, but there’s no way it rises to the level of the massive discrimination that persists in the US criminal justice system (in which blacks are many times more likely to be prosecuted for crimes, such as drug use, that they do at the same rate as whites).
yytzParticipantYes, sometimes, but that depends on how many minyanim are available locally…in some places all there is is an early minyan.
yytzParticipantIn my opinion, and experience, it’s not effective to insist that a spouse do something she doesn’t want to do. For example, if my wife is staying up too late and I say, “Go to bed,” she will not listen; instead, she will just get angry.
For this reason, I suggest you encourage him to go to a minyan not by lecturing or bugging him about it, and not even by mentioning it at all, but instead by being a good example and getting into bed early enough so that (if he follows your example and goes to bed soon after) he will get enough sleep to be able to make minyan. Nowadays it is way too easy to stay up too late, with artificial lighting and the internet and smart phones and such. We all need to devote considerable willpower to going to bed at an appropriate time.
An ironic thing about this thread is that I’ve seen stories of well-known rabbis advising their students to daven b’yechidus if necessary for shalom bayis reasons. I personally know people who, more frequently than not, have to daven alone for shalom bayis reasons (to help with the kids, for example).
In any case, while davening with a minyan is very important, it is not required if one has a really good reason not too — and being so sleep deprived you’re in a horrible mood and can’t function (if that’s the case) seems like a good reason. So as long as it only happens sometimes I wouldn’t see it as a horrible thing.
yytzParticipantRabbonim frequently remark that it is not a wife’s role to be her husband’s mashgiach (or as R’ Shais Taub put it in one column, his parole officer). More generally, getting angry at one’s spouse or trying to forcefully pressure them to do something, especially if it is a religious matter, may not be a good idea. I strongly recommend you read the popular shalom bayis manual Garden of Peace by R’ Shalom Arush (I’ve only read the men’s version but I can tell you from experience that it works wonders — I truly believe it is 100% emes).
yytzParticipantIt is possible to own your own business and only work a few hours a day (or week! see The Four Hour Workweek), but on average, most small-business owners or self-employed people work long hours. That said, many are highly satisfied with their work.
Regardless of the particular job, government jobs tend to be 9-5, 40 hr/week jobs. Federal government has the best benefits, followed by state, followed by city, maybe followed by county. It is rare to get fired from such jobs. But the pay is not so high, and only increases slightly over the years, unless you take a management position.
Health care professions such as pharmacists, physician assistants and nurse practitioners are paid well, but I’m not sure about their hours — it depends on the jobs, I’m sure. They take several years of post-college study. Nurses tend to work long (12 hours) shifts.
If you know a trade, such as plumbing or carpentry, then you can often be self-employed and work when you want (though it’s hard to turn down any offers you get). This can leave time for Torah study and family.
June 3, 2014 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm in reply to: Shmuly Yanklowitz, Novominsker and OO theology #1095091yytzParticipantZD, if you look at the list of their alumni, most of them do have jobs for which a JTS alum would be hired, such as Hillels and such. However, several YCT grads have been hired by places that would never hire a JTS grad (such as the Helsinki Chief Rabbinate — chief rabbis are pretty much always Orthodox — and a few solidly MO shuls in the US).
yytzParticipantIf you got a part-time job and continued learning, perhaps you will be rewarded for following the teachings of Chazal (Avos 2:2).
May 26, 2014 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm in reply to: The Environment and Our World- I Care About it #1204785yytzParticipantThere’s an Orthodox environmental organization (Canfei Nesharim), and the RCA has made a couple statements about the importance of a Torah-based environmental movement.
yytzParticipantRationalFrummie, that’s completely different, because he was directly disobeying G-d, while vegetarians are not violating any mitzvah (though, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are certainly some hashkafic dangers).
The idea that people should never be vegetarian because they should focus on people soon is not a valid objection. First, it’s not a zero-sum game, as becoming vegetarian does not mean one cannot also increase one’s compassion toward other people. Second, once you’re used to being vegetarian it takes no extra effort. So it’s not as if they’re taking time away from acts of kindness toward people. Third, there are many stories of tzaddikim going out of their way to save animals or prevent their suffering. Exerting oneself for the benefit of animals is not forbidden — to the contrary, we learn from these stories that it is praiseworthy. Finally, many people report increased energy and health (and the evidence shows that vegetarians live longer and are far less likely to die of heart disease and many cancers as well), so they might actually be able to engage in more kindness toward people than non-vegetarians do.
DY: Meat is not required as oneg Shabbos, and many vegetarians find that can find other foods that they receive just as much, or more, pleasure from than meat. Since the Torah says we can eat meat if we desire it, then it makes sense for people not to eat it if they don’t desire it, or feel that they have some good reason not to eat it.
yytzParticipant“I am much more inclined to believe that they decided on vegetarianism the same way Mathew Scully did, and then looked for support from Torah authorities.”
I don’t know what Scully’s motivation was. But if the motivation is just a general desire to be more compassionate (as opposed to an anti-Torah view that korbanos are inherently wrong or whatever), I don’t think we should condemn that, since the Gemara repeatedly says we should emulate’s Hashem’s traits, especially compassion. On the contrary, it should be praiseworthy to go beyond the letter of the law to be more compassionate (just as it’s a kiddush Hashem to return a lost object to a non-Jew even when it’s not halachically required).
yytzParticipantI only said “mainly” because of all the frum vegetarian advocates who’s stuff I’ve read, there’s just one whose motives I’m not so sure about (and some people don’t even consider him Orthodox so maybe he shouldn’t count).
Your “proba” would mean vegetarianism is completely assur. In fact, the Sdei Chemed said it’s assur to criticize vegetarians. Several well-known Orthodox rabbis, including the Nazir of Jerusalem (one of Rav Kook’s main students), his son the current chief rabbi of Haifa, the former chief rabbi of Ireland David Rosen, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, and the Kamenitzer Maggid, have been vegetarian. (Rav Kook was in favor of vegetarianism but in practice ate meat on Shabbos and Yom Tov.)
The vast majority of liberals and leftists want nothing to do with vegetarianism or animal welfare activism. Browse through their magazines and they never mention the subject. And some conservatives are certainly vegetarian and vegan.
In fact, the conservative author Matthew Scully, who used to write speeches for President G.W. Bush, recently wrote a lengthy article in favor of vegetarianism for the National Review. In any case, we shouldn’t denounce someone’s stringency just because we suspect it is connected to some political ideas we don’t agree with.
yytzParticipantDY: I’ve read a lot of the frum vegetarian literature, and I can assure you they are mainly coming from a Torah perspective (concerns about the rampant and unnecessary cruelty in the living conditions of animals) rather than from a anti-Torah perspective (that we have no right to eat animals or that shechita itself is cruel or wrong). Even the most extreme (who think the whole world should stop eating meat) are making arguments that are completely consistent with those of Rav Kook, who forsaw a global return to vegetarianism (as part of the Messianic age), and thought that only the flour korbanos would be restored in the third Beis haMikdash.
It’s possible that some are really coming from an anti-Torah perspective, but here’s a way to find out: ask them if they would eat from the korbanos if moshiach came and ruled that they were required to (but wasn’t going to punish them if they did not). I bet most, perhaps nearly all, frum vegetarians would eat it.
Popa, vegetarians have a different view of the halacha than you. Many authorities hold that it is forbidden to cause additional suffering to animals for financial gain (see my sources above), and the main reason for the conditions on factory farms today is the desire to reduce costs and increase profits. So there is a good halachic argument that the meat industry today is based on violations of halacha and should not be supported.
And anyway, as noted above, it is totally normal to go beyond the letter of the law to avoid even the possibility of a transgression, or to further the purpose of the underlying law (to reducing animal suffering), as shown by the example of the charedi Rav Yitzchak Weiss cited above. From a Torah perspective that’s a lot more praiseworthy than the opposite: bending over backwards to avoid even the slight possibility that someone might think you’re a “tree hugger” or guilty of sympathizing with an “ism” other than Republicanism or conformism.
yytzParticipantPopa:
1) read any vegetarian or animal-welfare arguments, Jewish or not, and you’ll see that the living conditions, and not the slaughter itself, is the overwhelming focus of their concerns.
2) upside down is not technically necessary — standing shechita is definitely practiced today. There are also different ways of upside-down shechita, some of which are more humane than others (shackle-and-hoist has been banned in the US since 1958 and the Rabbanut bans it and has even been trying to prevent its South American importers from using the practice.)
yytzParticipantPopa, I think most frum vegetarians or near-vegetarians are not worried about the slaughtering as much as what happens before — extreme cruelty on an unprecedented scale, documented ad naseum by various kinds of evidence (including video — try watching the video “farm to fridge: the truth behind meat production”). Some are concerned with “shackle and hoist” — shechting animals upside down — but again this is right before shechita, not the pain from the shechita itself.
But it turns out that some authorities do actually consider the pain involved in shechita to qualify as tzaar baalei chaim. To quote from R’ Sears’ book again:
yytzParticipantFrom R’ Sears book:
“Otzar HaPoskim, sec. 87, cites Teshuvos Imrei Shefer and Binyan Zion to the effect that one may not cause tza’ar baalei chaim for the sake of financial gain, a position supported by Teshuvos Yad HaLevi, Vol. I, no. 196. However, other authorities permit tza’ar baalei chaim for financial reasons, seeing this as a form of tzorech adam (human benefit); see Chasam Sofer on Bava Metzia 32b, Noda B’Yehudah, Vol. II, Yoreh De’ah, no. 10; Pri Yitzchak, Vol. I, no. 24; Yad Eliyahu, Kesavim 3:5. While cautioning that one should conduct oneself beyond the letter of the law to avoid causing tza’ar baalei chaim, the late R. Yitzchak Weiss of Jerusalem’s Eidah HaChareidis agrees with these latter authorities in Minchas Yitzchak, op cit.”
yytzParticipantDY: Your argument is faulty, 1) because people go beyond the letter of the law as established by Chazal all the time, and 2) because the abuses inherent in animal agriculture did not exist until the 20th century, and thus Chazal would know nothing about them. In fact, the worst abuses (veal, foie gras) have already been banned by major poskim. If poskim were informed in detail about many of the other practices commonplace in modern factory farms some poskim would probably ban at least some additional ones too.
There’s no blanket statement in Chazal that human need must always take priority over animal suffering. Instead, reducing or preventing animal suffering is an important value, but inflicting pain (or more pain than necessary) is often technically allowed in many cases. Yet that doesn’t mean we should do it if we don’t have a good reason.
It’s the same with returning a lost object to a gentile — it may not be technically required in many cases, but that doesn’t mean we should take advantage of that technicality unless there’s a really good reason.
Remember that Chazal repeatedly implore us to emulate Hashem’s traits, especially compassion. To say you can’t be more compassionate than the minimum Chazal requires is bizarre — acts of kindness have no measure, and are one of the foundations of the world.
yytzParticipantMazel tov!
yytzParticipant“Do they max out their credit cards and go into debt or do they save their money?”
Although Keynesian economics (which is associated with liberals but has long been supported by many conservatives as well in practice) advocates economic stimulus even it increases the national debt, but that does not mean that it also advocates individuals maxing out their credit cards. So there would be no reason for liberals to take out lots of debt to be in line with their beliefs.
“Would they allow their children to do something illegal and then fight to legalize that action?”
What are you talking about? Marijuana? I think most liberals would not allow their kids to use it, even if they advocate making it legal (many conservatives also advocate legalization as well). I was disappointed, however, with President Obama’s recent remarks saying that marijuana is no worse than alcohol and saying that he would tell his children just that it’s a vice and a waste of time (rather than warning them against in stronger terms).
“Would they buy a more expensive item which they can’t afford but is good for the environment or buy a more affordable item that’s not good for the environment?”
Yes. Organic and other more-expensive-but-environmentally-friendly products are a multi-billion dollar industry in the US (and in Israel too, where organic food is also popular in the religious sector), which I’m sure conservatives contribute to too, but certainly many liberals are the ones buying these products.
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