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What’s the biggie?! It’s an aveira. That’s a big deal.
Plus, in order to do teshuvah and gain atonement, Yom Kippur wouldn’t do it — you’d probably have to confess to the person who hired you and get them to forgive you.
I don’t believe this….
Avi, that’s an interesting argument. But all the religious parties in Israel (whether Ashkenazi or Sephardi, Charedi or Dati Leumi) support government support for the poor. And they would all like to actually increase it (and also nowadays, in reaction to the social justice protests, to further regulate the economy in some ways to benefit the middle class).
I am not familiar with all the sources on this issue, but it seems likely that there are other sources one could draw upon to justify our current system. Chabad.org recently put out some materials quoting various sources on different sides of a few political issues (such as taxation, health insurance, etc.)
Swiet, are you serious? Everyone should ensure their resume is 100% honest and accurate. Although telling less than the whole truth is sometimes allowed under halacha in specific situations, I’m sure lying on a resume to try to get a job does not fall within any of the exceptions of our obligation to be truthful. “Distance yourself from falsehood.”
The idea that anytime the government gives anyone money (and the people who received the money voted) this constitutes coercive theft is highly problematic.
Certainly, if the majority of the country voted to elect a party to power who then followed through on their campaign promise to seize the estates of the few thousand richest people in the country, and then redistribute their assets to everyone else, that would be stealing. In fact, I believe some of the features of the US’s originaly political system, such as the Senate (which was appointed by other officeholders until the early 20th century) and allowing only those with property to vote, were designed to prevent such things from happening.
But the way the modern state works is a far cry from that. There are various kinds of taxes, and everyone pays taxes. The poor pay lots of taxes (through sales taxes, for example). Many poor people on food stamps or other benefits actually probably pay more in sales taxes each year than they receive in benefits. So in that case, who are they stealing from?
Even if some people are receiving more than their tax contribution at a particular time, if you look at their lives over the long-term, it is likely that they will end up having other years in which they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Most people using government benefits do not remain on them for life. The average food stamp recipient is on food stamps for less than a year.
Even if some people receive more benefits overall in their lifetime than they pay in taxes, this is not really stealing. Such people are not in the majority, for one thing. Moreover, it’s not as if they’re appropriating the assets of other people. They’re simply getting a bit of income to allow them to survive. And the well-off are getting the benefit of not having to have starving mobs begging in the streets and rioting and such.
Although some wealthy people may object to paying taxes that will help poor people, most people (even though who currently have plenty of money) recognize that it’s completely possible that they themselves, or their descendants, will at some point be destitute and require assistance. (See John Rawls’ concept of the veil of ignorance.) Most people would rather live in a society that helps destitute people, because no one knows what will happen to them personally. Perhaps it would be ideal if private charity could do this by itself, but that’s really a fantasy, at least for now.
The way the government works, money is distributed all over the place for various purposes. Government contractors make billions, and thousands of people get steady jobs, because the government decides to make (often unnecessary) weapons (to use ourselves and to give away to countries like Israel and Egypt.) Thus they take a little bit from everybody and in this case the benefit is specific to a particular group of people (contractors and their employees). Even so, it’s not stealing — it’s just the government raising revenue by various means and deciding how to spend it.
It was a well-intentioned but somewhat thoughtless remark — no big deal. This “controversy” seems media-generated.
The Israeli Chabad kabbalist Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh recently wrote an essay on his website encouraging all Jews to read Frank’s autobiography (even charedim who probably wouldn’t normally read it.)
It’s all one ideological package. From historical documentation, such as writings and interviews of those in her inner circle, we learn that she was fanatically insistent that everyone accept every aspect of her philosophy, even her odd aesthetic views (which some see as eerily similar to Soviet Realism.)
Even if one of the main ideas of an author seems OK, this does not mean that the author should be read. She is clearly trying to indoctrinate people into a very specific rationalist, secularist worldview. I would no more want my kids reading this, than reading Xian apologetics, Chairman Mao or L. Ron Hubbard.
Although I don’t agree with them, it’s understandable that many people believe that private charity should take care of all poor people, with government doing very little or nothing in the chesed department.
However, Rand’s extreme libertarian or anarcho-capitalist views are also incompatible with the Torah’s economic laws, such as the requirement to pay a worker on the same day as he finishes his work. Any legislation of that nature would be absolutely forbidden under Rand’s worldview, as presented in the interview you quoted. Similarly, Poskim have approved of tax collecting, which is also against Rand’s beliefs.
Ayn Rand preached atheism, as part of the all-encompassing cult-like philosophy of life she invented (“objectivism”), and her books were meant to convince people to adopt her warped worldview. Her books exalted ruthless selfishness as the highest value, and displayed utter contempt for poor people. Much like Nietzsche, she meant to turn Western Judeo-Xian values upside down.
I think it’s highly inappropriate for a Jew to read a book by a someone (particularly a Jew like Ayn Rand) who invented and evangelized for a new atheistic ideology. However, I’m not surprised that some read her anyway, since its politics coincide with some people’s right-wing economic views.
People have every right to conclude that conservative economic and welfare policies are better — even though, at least in Israel, you’d be hard-pressed to find any gadol supporting right-wing economic policies like cutting welfare and such — but they shouldn’t conclude that then any author who shares such views is kosher.
Perhaps many people enjoy her writing, but it’s also commonly observed that reading her books tends to warp people’s personalities, making them less kind and pleasant and more ruthless and cruel. I’ve noticed this personally in people I know. It’s often temporary, but not always.
I’m not concerned about her advocacy for legalization of drugs. It’s a genuine empirical question whether making drugs illegal causes more harm than good. I’m not aware of Chazal showing any interest in banning or restricting certain substances and throwing people in jail if they disobey.
You might want to browse the Bureau of Labor Statistics career website. It gives basic information about numerous careers, and also forecasts job prospects over the next decade.
There are relatively few majors which translate directly into a decent job post-graduation: teaching, nursing, engineering, computer science, etc. Most of the the major health careers (physician assistant, pharmacy, optometry, podiatry, etc.) require at least a master’s, but they pay well and are in high demand.
Yetelz: Most of the time, you can just google the name of the station and then it will come right up and you can just press play and it will work. If you have a tablet computer (iPad, etc.) or smartphone there might also be an app to listen to it on those. It would be nice if we could post links on this thread, but the CR policy not to allow links is usually strictly enforced.
I sometimes listen to Breslev Israel radio. Only a small proportion of the music is Breslov. It’s a little more mellow than the other stations (YWN, etc.) which tend to have lots of intense fast-paced music (when it’s not this time of year, at least).
This question was addressed a couple hundred years ago:
“There are many holy books in existence today, and many more are destined to be printed in the future. The world needs all of them, and it is wrong to cast aspersions on any of them. They are all firmly based upon the Written and Oral Law. It is philosophical works based on speculation and false ideology that you should keep away from, no matter who they might be written by. But all books which are in accordance with the Holy Torah that we received on Mt. Sinai are very precious, and they are all necessary for the world. One who scoffs at them will be subject to the judgement of boiling excrement, and he will never succeed in gaining any practical guidance from the Torah he studies. He will never be sure about anything. He will constantly be afflicted with doubts in whatever he does until he repents and revises his view of these holy books. And when he does, the harsh judgements in the world will be sweetened by means of the Holy Torah. The very perfection of the Torah depends upon the abundance of books concerned with the oral Law (Ibid. 5).” (Likutei Eitzos, Torah Study 45)
Spend some time praying for guidance, talk to your confidants, and think it over for an appropriate amount of time.
Then follow your heart and make the decision that seems right to you, when you’re ready.
Don’t be paralyzed with indecision, but conversely, don’t let people pressure you into making decisions you’re not sure about.
Do not worry about losing your bashert — this is like saying “my life will be ruined!” Heaven forbid a person should think such a distressing thought. Trust in Hashem that he will guide you to make the right decisions.
Daniela, for sure, if it’s actually the halacha, then we shouldn’t be embarrassed about it. But if this is the basic halacha that everyone accepts, as you claim, then why don’t we see kohanim in plastic suits all the time? I’m sure there are cemeteries within a short distance of some U.S. airports.
Hmmm, so you’d advise anyone with skeptical or uncomfortable initial reactions to what you consider to be the halacha to abandon Orthodoxy altogether? Or you’d rather see someone abandon Orthodoxy than disagree with you about whether a single halachic interpretation is unnecessarily strict or not? That doesn’t strike me as a good approach.
Daniela, you’re upset that I even mentioned Bat Ayin, on a thread that was obviously a joke (and not started by a 14-year old at all)? I’m sure it’s not for everyone (as I suggested in my initial post on that thread), but I have no reason to believe that Bay Ayin is so problematic that it shouldn’t ever be mentioned on the Internet. Certainly, people should thoroughly investigate an institution before they go there. I never said otherwise.
Pou__bear: Good point. I’m sure there are Jews who are very close to accepting the truth of Orthodoxy and becoming complete ba’alei teshuvah, who see something like this (or some other ultra-machmir practice), and get turned off for good. How are we supposed to convince people that Orthodox Judaism is the only legitimate continuation of traditional rabbinic Judaism, if the Orthodox get progressively more stringent with time? To outsiders, such things make Orthodoxy look like a new deviant sect obsessed with stringency.
DaasYochid, I’m sure that’s not the only cemetery near an airport frequently used by frum Jews. Also, are you saying the photograph is from before the situation was resolved? How do you know? Why would the photograph be coming out now, then?
Daniela: Eh, I don’t eat macrobiotic, but nice attempt at a personal attack. If you read what I wrote carefully, you’ll see that I didn’t say that bitul applies to tumah.
I just meant to observe that there are ways to be lenient in various areas of halacha — and I’d be very surprised if most poskim side with the notion that accidentally being for a split second thousands of feet above a cemetery is absolutely forbidden for kohanim.
In fact, if this were really an accepted ruling, we’d see kohanim in plastic bags (or refusing to fly at all) all the time! Yet there are only a handful of kohanim who have ever done this.
Does everyone hold that tumah ascends for thousands of feet? Even if they do, I find it hard to believe no major poskim would find grounds for leniency when we’re talking about a kohen flying through a spiral of tumah for a split second thousands of feet above the surface of the earth. Think of the 1/60th bitul rule in kashrus.
Shmulik: Not everyone holds by rumors of what Rav Elyashiv paskened. Did he actually write down this psak? Or do we hear it second or third hand? Maybe one of his relatives expressed this opinion, but he has at least 1000 living descendents at this point, and they can’t all be gedolim.
Imanonov: How do you know it’s really halacha and not a chumra or an unnecessarily strict interpretation of halacha rejected by most poskim? Just because something is super machmir doesn’t mean it’s actually correct.
Squeak, I got that from a couple posts by R’ Eidensohn on his Daas Torah blog. It includes long direct quotes from the Satmar Rebbe.
I’ve wondered about the related question: what about when you’re downloading software, and to complete the download it says, click here to agree you’ve read the 20 pages of rules, when of course you’ve never read the rules and neither has anyone else except the person who wrote them. It basically forces everyone to lie. We are supposed to distance ourselves from falsehood. But is it really halachically wrong?
I’m sure I’m not the first person to make this observation, but it’s ironic that people of a more right-wing hashkafa both 1) tend to insist on an all-encompassing Hashgacha Pratis (everything is bashert, there is no such thing as a coincidence, etc.), and 2) believe that there is no religious significance whatsoever to the foundation or existence of the State of Israel. These beliefs conflict, no? (I’m not criticizing the strong version of hashgacha pratis — I believe in this myself.)
The Satmar Rebbe after the 1967 war even claimed that it was Satan, not God, who allowed the Israelis to recapture Yerushalayim. Other gedolim, such as R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky, disagreed with him and ascribed the event to God, even though they were not sympathetic to the Medina in general.
If God is so great that He’s totally beyond human comprehension, then why couldn’t he accomplish some of his goals through people with secular ideologies? After all, settling in Eretz Yisroel has been described as equivalent to all the other mitzvos. (Sifrei Devarim 80).
There were pogroms, anti-Semitic riots, etc. in Eretz Yisrael before the state was created. The last times Jews created an independent state (the Hasmoneans) we sure got a holiday out of that.
Gamanit: We won’t need Yom Haatzmaut after all that happens. We can just celebrate on Tisha B’Av. Or all the time. Now, we get a minor holiday to celebrate what we do have. Isn’t it nice we can visit Israel or even move there without immediate threats to our safety (it’s probably actually safer there, due to the high murder rate here)?
Popa: Not good, but that’s nickles and dimes, in a broad historical perspective. The state is a big clumsy creature and bad decisions will sometimes be made. Blowing up the Al Aska Mosque and banning the non-Orthodox from the kotel isn’t exactly feasible at this juncture. Like I said this isn’t the geulah. But no one says it is — just perhaps the very early stages.
This is not the geulah. For sure. But it’s not exactly a normal golus situation either. About 95% of the Jews in the world live either in Israel or North America, where, for the first time for 2000 years, the vast majority of Jews can practice our religion freely and without more than trivial suffering.
A universal draft, a cut in funding to charedi institutions, a few rockets from Gaza, some anti-Semitism and crime in America, the atheistic or heterodox ideologies keeping most Jews from making teshuvah, even Iranian nuclear ambitions — these may be problematic but are nothing compared to the suffering Yidden have endured for the last two millenia.
There has been never another time when a Jewish family could manage to have 10 or more kids, have them all survive, and have all or nearly of them stay on the derech and raise their own families without the scourge of war or disease or pogroms or expulsions. Even if the public image of the religious is often low in Israel, the situation there is objectively better: the fact is that even the vast majority of Jews in Israel marry other Jews and have Jewish children — which unfortunately is not the case in the US.
I find it interesting that Israel was founded in 1948, the same year (in the Jewish calendar) as Avraham Avinu’s birthday. Of course, Hashem first promised the land to Avraham. So the existence of the Medina is just a beginning, as Avraham’s birth was, and there are still all kinds of problems, but Jewish life for nearly all Jews today is qualitatively more free and secure than at any other time since the golus began.
Have you seen the OU’s “emerging communities” stuff? I read an article a while back on this theme, with little paragraphs describing various far-flung out-of-town frum communities. To some extent it seems to be a way for these communities to market themselves to the restive New Yorkers. Go west, young families!
For those interested in following up on this topic, R’ Noson Slifkin has a good analysis of what Rambam meant (and didn’t mean) by his “Not only the tribe of Levi statement.” Here it is:
Sorry, copyright violation.
Also, garbage. But posting garbage is not against the rules; only copyright violations are. The guy couldn’t learn a rambam if he was the Sultan.
Interjection: It’s true that the official position of the Catholic Church is that abortion is not allowed even to save the life of the mother. But most pro-lifers would be happy with a law that allowed abortion to save the life of the mother. Halachically, that could be OK only if they ensure that the decision whether the mother’s life is in danger is made on the same criteria that a rabbi would use in deciding whether to OK the abortion. Admittedly I’m not sure if that’s possible. Regardless, it’s unfortunate that although about half the population is pro-life, doctors seem to be indoctrinated into being pro-abortion.
I’ve heard pro-life doctors say that in med school and later, they were mocked and derided for being against abortion.
This is a very abstract conversation.
What are you getting at, Popa? I have a feeling you’re not suggesting that the government censor certain viewpoints. So maybe you’re referring to what we should teach children in school, or whether people should go to college (or non-frum colleges)?
Certainly, in the school context, we should not expose children to all points of view. They shouldn’t read apologetic literature trying to convince people to become Reform Jews or Xians. But should we teach them only one very narrow hashkafa, without teaching them about different viewpoints within Orthodoxy? I don’t think so.
People keep referring to the halacha, but what is it exactly? Does the Shulchan Aruch mention this? Regardless, can someone give a brief summary of the halacha? (And don’t just say “don’t read kefira” — that’s not specific enough.)
Dry and holy wine! LOL.
Rabbi Lazer Brody has endorsed Bat Ayin’s women’s program (on his blog), and many of the faculty of the yeshivah (not sure about the woman’s program) are charedi. That suggests that although Bat Ayin is very innovative haskhafically (by combining religious Zionism with chassidic philosophy from Breslov and Chabad and other sources), that doesn’t mean it’s out of the ordinary in terms of halachic observance.
Writersoul: I don’t know, maybe Pardes Institute?
I would contact the people in Bat Ayin (spiritual hippy dati leumi organic farming settlers) to see if they have any suggestions. If you’re looking for something more charedi than their programs, they may know where you to point you.
I realize the OP isn’t serious. But I thought I’d answer anyway in case someone ever really has this question.
Vogue, yes, it’s definitely somewhat messed up, especially considering the the fact that one is supposed to teach one’s son a trade, the ketubah obligation of the man to support the wife (not vice versa), and Chazal’s strong views in favor of combining Torah study and work (Avos 2:2). In truth, there are a variety of ways of being a good Jew, and the man learning/woman working model is only one of these ways. But there are a few things to keep in mind.
First, it is extremely common, perhaps the norm, for secular Jews and non-Jews (of all social classes and groups) nowadays to spend their 20s being economically dependent on their parents or the government. This can mean living with one’s parents, being a grad student for 5-10 years and living on poverty wages (often with food stamps), moving from one random low-paid job to another, getting a college degree in an impractical subject and then aimlessly traveling around, etc. There was even a long NY Times magazine article recently called “What is it about 20 somethings?” So being economically not on solid ground in one’s 20s is kind of normal. As long as you eventually figure out a way to get a reasonable income sooner or later, it’s not really that crazy.
Second, in every generation Judaism changes, and sometimes these changes are positive, or negative, or both positive and negative. Even if there are certain practical or hashkafic distortions (such as the emphasis on fulltime learning as a lifetime occupation for the masses) in a certain generation, we should see things in the big picture, and try to steer Judaism in the right direction as best as we can, while doing the things we know we’re supposed to do — Torah, mitzvos, maasim tovim, etc. Eventually people and ideas will arise to correct whatever distortions are going on in a particular generation — and we can encourage that process through our own individual contributions.
“viewpoints other than those of the teacher are not tolerated.”
Is this true of all Orthodox schools? I don’t think so.
Do meds really work better than the moderate use of caffeine (preferably green tea, because it promotes calmness and alertness at the same time)? Aerobic exercise works even better than caffeine at increasing alertness (and also has many other benefits). Teachers often find their best students are those in involved in cross-country (long distance running).
In some Jewish communities, many people are on ritalin and similar drugs, while others discourage them. Rabbi Lazer Brody, for example, claims that one can eliminate the need for meds by different parenting strategies (spending more time with kids, spending more time outside in nature, etc.) His blog has a few entries on the topic.
I don’t know about the efficacy of those teachings. But I think it would be interesting to see whether if someone jogged daily, got enough sleep, ate healthy foods (for example, no artificial ingredients, some of which have been linked to behavioral problems), and had a little caffeine or theobromine (the stimulant in chocolate), if that would work just as well as meds. Maybe not, but maybe it’s worth trying.
TIDE, I obviously don’t agree with all you said, but I agree that Rav Hirsch’s teachings are really compelling. His sefer Horeb: A Philosophy of Jewish Laws and Observances should be required reading for all Jews. It’s written in a beautiful and stirring style that I’ve never seen anywhere else. The introduction to the translation by R’ Isadore Grunfeld is really good too.
Mishlei 21:1. Ultimately Hashem decides what kings do. Kim’s acting crazy, but perhaps Hashem is orchestrating this to somehow allow the millions of suffering North Koreans to achieve freedom.
I enjoyed Soul Searching by R’ Yaakov Astor. His other books look good too.
All the books of R’ Shalom Arush and R’ Lazer Brody are worth reading.
Re: practicing faith, consider the pasuk “Taste and see, the Lord is good; happy is the man who trusts in Him.” (Tehillim 34.) Perhaps this means we should try out trusting in Hashem and then we’ll see how good it is.
Rebbe Nachman of Breslov has a number of teachings about strengthening faith in Likutei Eitzos. Google “How can one come to have faith in the things one must believe in?” and the translation of the relevant chapter of the sefer will come right up.
I find Aish-style analyses of history to be pretty convincing evidence of the truth of Judaism. It’s hard to learn about our history and not see Hashem’s hand in it.
His original thread called “Proof of Hashem” was deleted. Maybe that’s what he’s asking about?
“Brainwashing” is a loaded term — it’s better to speak in terms of persuading people to adopt a highly specific worldview, and then evaluate that worldview to see if it’s problematic.
Some people criticize Bais Yaakov for giving their students the very strongly-held idea that marrying a full-time learner and being a kollel wife is the best thing in the world and if you don’t do that you’re a nobody, or at least on a much lower madreiga than you really should be. I don’t know if this is true — I don’t have personal experience with BY. But it does seem like a very limited and harmful worldview to impose on kids, since most will not live up to the standard, which itself is rather new in Jewish history.
If I were starting a high school, I would have the students learn a variety of frum hashkafic perspectives based on various classical and contemporary sources, so they don’t have an artifically narrow perspective, and can gravitate toward and further explore teachings that appeal to them personally.
In many cases, college (including the professors, course materials, and fellow students) really does persuade people to adopt very specific world views. In most colleges, especially liberal arts colleges but also larger universities, there is a very liberal, secular, anti-religious atmosphere. Deeply religious or conservative people tend to abandon their beliefs, and if they don’t, they are usually are too afraid to share them with anyone. It is much worse in the humanities and social sciences, compared to more technical or professional fields, but a few required electives in the liberal arts can be enough to transform a student’s worldview. I don’t think this is true at all colleges, and certainly not at places like YU or Touro, but it’s very widespread.
What do sunflower seeds have to do with brainwashing?
“Popa is absolutely correct as a much older single i have received gelilah all too often its like the gabbai is saying well you aren’t man enough to deserve an aliyah but i have to give you something because you are here this is one of the reasons i rarely go to shul.”
I’m sorry to hear that, Goq — that’s sad. Maybe you could find another shul that deals with honors differently?
I think this is the reason why some people like Chabad kiruv shuls. In my experience they just give honors to everybody with no apparent pattern.
LanderTalmid, you shouldn’t be too bothered. Dozens of rishonim expressed the view that Chazal erred in scientific matters. Others disagreed. A variety of views on this issue exist among Orthodox rabbonim today.
Depending on your hashkafa, you may find the works of R’ Noson Slifkin of interest. His books were banned a few years ago by some gedolim, but some of them indicated afterward that they had never read the books and didn’t have a good understanding of what was in them. What is more, several of the askanim responsible for the ban are now either in prison (for unrelated felonies) or otherwise disgraced. However, as R’ Slifkin has explained on his website, he actually agrees with the ban for certain communities (I think those who are very insular and unfamiliar with the findings of modern science in general).
Various kiruv-oriented books on Torah and science have been written, such as Genesis and the Big Bang (be careful — there are two books of this title, written by different authors). You may want to check them out as well.
It sounds like you’re in the US. Why can’t you convert while you’re in graduate school? Talk to your local Orthodox rabbi — even if it’s a small Orthodox community, it may still be possible to convert.
I’ve heard that it is often more convenient to convert in the US (through a widely-recognized beis din) rather than in Israel. After converting here, then perhaps you could take time off to learn in a yeshivah.
That said, I’ve heard (maybe in the CoffeeRoom?) of gerim converting after studying at yeshivas in Israel like Ohr Sameach.
Of course, if you marry a Jew, your kids will be Jewish whether or not you convert, because you’re a man. However, you wouldn’t be able to marry a Jew halachically without converting, whether here or in Israel, and if you have daughters before you convert they would not be able to marry kohanim.
You say you want to “follow through with an orthodox conversion so that i can marry in israel in the future and save my future kids the worry of whether or not they are jewish,” and speaking of getting your conversion “straightened out.”
I just wanted to point out that a halachic conversion is not a technical matter of straightening out your Jewishness, or a hurdle to be jumped over for the purpose of marriage, but rather a fundamental decision: do you want to commit to being an observant Orthodox Jew in every respect for the rest of your life? If so — and it sounds like this may indeed be your intention — then you shouldn’t have any problems in completing the gerus. Hatzlacha with whatever you decide to do!
My point was that in practice even the very frum don’t necessarily hold by every statement made by a gadol hador — especially if we don’t know if he really said it because it’s second or third hand (as with many statements attributed to R’ Elyashiv), but also when we do know that he said it (as with R’ Shach on college).
Thanks, CharlieHall, but my point was that even since R’ Shach said this plenty of people who consider him to have been the gadol hador go to Touro and elsewhere anyway. The idea that every pronouncement (whether documented or rumored) that a gadol hador says is to be followed, is simply not observed in practice. People tend to rely on more lenient opinions by other rabbis, as well as being influenced by the gadol hador.
Now that we’re listing, can someone list rabbis who approved of evolution or an ancient universe? That would be helpful.