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Personally, I think that the current trend of denying children an education of anything that isn’t Gemara and Halacha starting from age 12 is a far worse problem than any Modern Orthodox liberalism.
The elements of Modern Orthodoxy that you are troubled by have always existed in Yiddishkeit and are right not Baruch Hashem fading (except in certain circumstances where certain Rabbis who graduated from certain non-YU places call themselves “Modern Orthodox” but are not frum).
Right now I think the responsibility we have is in taking the beam out of our own eyes. There are numerous endemic problems right now in frum trends that many people are afraid to openly address, and those that do are labeled outsiders. And it’s only getting worse.
If you aren’t in a time of active war, then presumably the gun is for security purposes. If you live in such a dangerous place that you need killing weapons to protect yourself, then on Shabbos you should hire a goy to stand outside your home and shul to protect you. There are almost no circumstances today in the US where carrying a gun should be allowed.
Different Tracks of American Yeshivish Orthodoxy
You have the right elements which look similar to Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel, though there are generally a few more folks who understand that we’re not RASHBI. Then you have the more left side – the shpitzy Lakewood types. You’ll even find those within that camp who dress casual during the week and aren’t in kollel and their wives wear long sheitels, but are too afraid to call out the dangerous anti-everything elements. You won’t find a Lakewood type rabbi as realistic as he may live call out some of the problems that exist within Chareidikeit and try to elevate the normalcy it it’ll make the yungerleit and shadchanim upset. When a young Rav tries to get his shul off the kollel-only train, often times they won’t get a new contract. Now I think the Lakewood working folk have a lot of ehrliche yidden but the gains could be so much more if they weren’t too scared of getting their daughters married.
To get off my sarcasm seat for a second, yes I’m well aware that Steve and Steve called their company “Apple” because it was “plucking the fruit of knowledge”. However, we have the Gemara which brings several pshatim as to what the fruit was and none of them are apples.
@yeshivaguy45 Who are these people? Goyim?
There are more Chassidishe boys in Shidduchim and there are more non-Chassidishe girls in Shidduchim. I don’t know if there’s data to support it, but I’m pretty sure everyone here has heard that time and time again. If it’s a myth, so then it’s a myth. But right now I’m willing (at least for the sake of this discussion) to believe it.
@daas-yochid Getting a job or education is called “twiddling thumbs” now? Are bachurim sitting in the freezer or Eretz Yisroel just being mevatel Torah until they get married?@always_ask_questions Now you’re getting to a different matter. What price do we put on our children’s chinuch? If the local Yeshivish place charges $20k tuition, but there’s another place whose tuition is only $13k but the Rebbeim are B-class, what is one supposed to do?
But to get back to seminaries, $15k is still a large amount of money, but over a year (and with loans, scholarships, FAFSA, etc.) it won’t bankrupt an average frum family.
@yuda-the-maccabi Why would an apple remind someone of the Eitzim in Gan Eden?
On one hand, I don’t know if non-Chassidishe girls would be willing to shave their hair and wear a tichel. On the other hand, tav l’meisav tan du m’l’meisav armelah.
@Always_Ask_Questions It is too much money.
- The price has gone up far more than inflation can count for.
- The neshomah and happiness can be achieved by going to local seminaries
- If spending a year in Israel is the price for a shidduch, the problem is on the Shadchanim and parents of boys who prioritize this narischkeit and they should all be given a stern talking to by that Rebbetzin my sisters were always so petrified of
I feel that the main issue is the money. Seminaries cost as much as a car these days and people are put into serious debt to make sure their daughter has “the best” because chas v’shalom what would the shadchan say? Not only that, it’s starting to make a rift between those who can afford 45k for each one of their daughters and those who simply cannot.
Instead of doing away with seminaries, we should encourage graduating girls to attend local seminaries, and short summer or Yom Tov programs in Eretz Yisroel for the “Israel experience”.
“If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….” would solve like 99% of all internal problems in Klal Yisroel today. However, not only do too many people (including many Roshei Yeshivos) have too much riding on our current system, it’s also really really difficult to turn the ship that is our community in a different direction, no matter how many people are pulling at the rudder.
Most people who can’t afford dental insurance also can’t afford to fly out to Budapest on a whim. Just saying. If you mamesh can’t afford it but are too wealthy to go on MedicAid, then check healthcare.gov to see what plans your state has in place for subsidized insurance.
Because it’s all about economics.
Way back in the 80s, the Yated Ne’eman decided that they aren’t going to be the arbiters of what is and what is not tznius and decided to make a blanket prohibition on printing pictures of woman. Flash forward to the 00’s and the explosion of frum newspapers. None of them wanted to be the paper on the shelf that people will pass over for being “less frum” so they all had to accept all the ridiculous chumras of all the other papers and then add some. There are maybe 5% of readers who will consciousnessly choose a paper without woman over a paper with woman in it, but those 5% are a big market share and all the papers have to market accordingly.
However, the same 5% are also the people who will either not have Internet access, or not admit to having it. So pictures of women on the web won’t deter them from spending their money.
@syag-lchochma Right now are people dying and getting hospitalized at the rates they were in late 2020?
On another note, going back, who is Rav Sorotzkin and Rav Dessler? The only individuals I know that bore those names passed away long ago, YBChLCh. I’m curious as to what exactly it was that they said, especially considering how it conflicted with many things I’ve heard from Rabbonim who I know and trust.
Being a mazik because of being uneducated is wrong. Being a moser is wrong. I was saddened to see how many shuls and other institutions flagrantly (or secretly) ignored all COVID restrictions, even at the beginning when people were literally dropping like flies, but it was even more saddening to see how many of these places were raided by the police because of a fellow yid who massered on them.
Ignorance leads a person to being a mazik. Back in the day, people refused to refrain from drinking before driving because “I can hold my liquor”. They were mazikim and caused untold amount of death and destruction to others. So too with people today who refuse to give their children proper healthcare and instead subject them and others around them to diseases like measles and whooping cough. The ignorant mazikim in question are those ignorant of how contagious diseases work and how dangerous COVID is, thus causing hezik to many around them.
Can we at least all agree that the current trend of Shadchanim and parents encouraging girls to get professional pictures to send around is absolutely disgusting and violates so many tzniyus issues it’s not even funny?
If I wouldn’t be wasting time arguing on here, I would be wasting time arguing on Yenner Website.
This is my way to blow off steam during work. I don’t think of it as a waste of time, unless I find myself spending more than just a few minutes a day.
@AvirahDeArah I knew about the Ba’al HaTanya’s imprisonment, I did not know that it was also a yartzeit. Still, I’m not sure if that answers my question? Like why did this event, out of all other wonderful things that happened to Klal Yisroel, warrant a special Yom Tov for Lubavitch? And why do Chabaskers assume that everyone should celebrate it?
I’ve never seen a Yud Tes Kislev event that wasn’t organized by Chabad. I think it’s just that many of them have more funding and are reaching out with bigger campaigns.
No stupid questions, but can someone remind me of what the significance is of 19 Kislev?
Some guy is going all blitzkrieg on this random sefer. Dude, seriously. Did Peshuto Shel Mikrah hit you as a kid or something? I mean, there’s a million seforim coming out every year and I’m sure there are plenty that people can find fault with. Does this one sefer really warrant the number of Roshei Yeshivos this guy got to sign a petchkvil about?
During the times of the Bais HaMikdash, we were on a much much higher madreiga and there was a halachic rule over the land. Yet it still didn’t stop hundreds of thousands from being open avaryanim in some of the most disgusting ways possible. This resulted in the worst punishment in history of having our Bayis destroyed and exiled to galus.
Who are we to think that a “Jewish Israel” would some how not suffer the same fate?
I think something that needs to be said is that a kashrus agency often relies on the honesty of the owners to keep the food kosher. And they cannot rely on an owner who is not yashrus themselves.
Mr. West has been saying and acting like a mentally unhinged individual for well over a decade now. His political opinions were never consequential because who cares what a crazy person thinks? So now his particular brand of crazy aligns with the crazies who openly hate us and want to kill us. Nu nu. Next week he’ll be saying he’s the president of Madagascar or something.
This is a good question and leads into a subject that a lot of liberal Jews are talking about. Namely, should a kashrus agency certify a company that engages in tza’ar ba’alei chaim? There are Rabbonim who say that we shouldn’t eat veal, because the calf needs to basically be tortured to produce it and regular beef is just as available.
I have seen far more people “attacked” for wearing a mask than people were for not wearing one. Perhaps the COVID amnesty is that I need to forgive the guy who walked over to me across shul and made snide comments about how silly I look?
@ujm I have no love for Democrats, but as Yidden we shouldn’t support baseball teams nor political parties. Both parties are bad. Here are some example headlines:
“Congressional Republicans on Monday… demand a slew of policy changes… including Medicaid funding cuts that could result in millions losing coverage.”
“Why are Republicans attacking WIC: GOP finds new scapegoat for baby formula outrage”
“GOP failure in Congress boosts Medicaid effort in Kansas”
“GOP senator considering blocking school meal funding deal ”
“What happens to the expansion of Medicaid? It would be phased out under all of the Republican bills.”
I’m sure you’re also conveniently forgetting 2014 where the Affordable Care Act was supposed to be the biggest federal medical aid to people who coulndn’t afford insurance and was relentlessly blocked by the Republicans over and over again.
@ujm Republicans have consistently voted against anything that gives poor people money for decades. Consider literally every healthcare law, from Medicare to Obamacare, that is supposed to eliminate medical debt. They’ve all been pushed by Democrats and fought against by Republicans. Federally funding colleges (which include Yeshivos), increasing handouts like Welfare and Foodstamps, have all been Democrat votes with the GOP firmly standing against it.
Also, if Republicans fully get their way, it would completely gut the Kollel system which survives in a large part due to federal handouts like FAFSA, Section 8 HUD, Wellfare, Footstamps, and MedicAid. All of which the GOP has a consistent record of voting against since their belief system is that people should work instead of relying on government aid.
I would rather that some goyishe school teach immoral goyishe things (like they’ve always done) than our Yeshivos require beefed up security guards and armed teachers.
@SyagLchochma Point out to me where he didn’t say that.
@commonsaychel I don’t understand your logic. Hundreds of thousands of people died because of COVID which was made worse because of the huge initial wave and lack of knowledge as to how to treat it, and you’re saying that somehow we should have made that wave bigger and allowed more people to catch the virus by not locking down?
For all of those kvetching about the billions going to Ukraine, mistomah you have a similar issue with the billions going to Israel, no?
@common-saychel That’s a terribly dishonest way of putting things. The people that died because of COVID rules still died from untreated COVID due to overcrowding hospitals, etc. The reason they died was because of how poorly understood the situation was initially. Which only goes to show how important it was that people followed at least the basic COVID precautions, like wearing masks in public not going to crowded indoor places, or staying away from people when you felt sick.
@AvriaDeArah On that we will have to disagree. I know of few good women who agree with the more extreme ways in which tzniyus is sometimes taught. It’s not Torah, it’s not yiras Shomayim, it’s just scare tactics by lousy teachers who don’t know how to explain something in a way that makes it beautiful. I don’t know how much Gemara I would have learned if my Rebbeim would have focused on “Learn Torah or BURN IN GEHINNOM FOREVER!!” instead of instilling the geshmak and beauty of it.
I don’t know if there’s a connection between body acceptance and gender confusion. I don’t. But telling kids that they don’t have to starve themselves or work out like a Yivoni to be beautiful is something most Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs teach.
@AviraDeArah I think @SyagLchochma is getting at the overzealous way in which some people teach tzniyus. Like there’s an old story written by a Yiddish maskil about a girl who was being dragged by Cossacks and pins her skirt to her legs so that she bleeds to death rather than be un-tzniyus. It was written, like the Chelm stories, as a way to sneer at those crazy fundamentalist frummies. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that there are places that teach it as a lesson to aspire to.
I didn’t want to get involved in a discussion about gender but here we are. My two cents on this are that the medical community has been bullied by certain individuals and groups to accept some things when there is little to no evidence behind it. Like the whole nonsense about “non-binary genders” with people saying “my pronouns are they/them” or whatever. It basically started ten years ago as a fad among teens and younger adults. Now, doctors are ostracized if they dare go against the idea that a six year old child whos parents insist “they don’t identify as a boy or girl” isn’t just a little confused kid.
@philosopher The surge in ADD/ADHD diagnosis is a thing of the past. Doctors have recognized for the last 20 years that not every hyper kid has an attention disorder and Ritalin and Adderal were overprescriped.
If you speak with a modern psychiatrist, they will probably echo similar things to what you are saying. Medication for mental illness is usually the last line of defense. Doctors, psychologists, and other therapists usually go for months of therapy and only medicate if the patient is showing little improvement (or if the patient has a very clear diagnosed and dangerous condition).
@commonsaychel There are probably about a hundred thousand frum Yidden in Baltimore who are members of shuls that followed the psak of the Va’ad HaRabbonim. Unlike New York and Lakewood, it was a unified front of the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos of Baltimore putting out very clear piskei halacho and guidelines about COVID. Because of that, many shuls outside of Baltimore in smaller affiliated communities followed it too. There are plenty of Rabbonim in New York and Lakewood that took the psak and actions of the Baltimore community to heart. About half of Lakewood reopened Shavuous, but many more did not. And of those that didn’t, many kept closed because they listened to the Baltimore Va’ad. That is all.
There are kids who literally could not function in a school environment unless they were medicated, after which they thrived.
There are adults who cannot find the energy to pull themselves out of bed every day and went on to live, happy, fulfilled lives once they found the right medication.
And there are literally millions of similar cases, from schizophrenia (where people have disturbing hallucinations) to manic disorders (where people cannot control their actions caused by powerful emotions).
Are you saying these people shouldn’t get the help they need?
@common-saychel @Avram-in-MD Virtually all of the Rabbonim were part of the decision, and their vote was unanimous. I think those that were not involved were places that don’t follow them anyway, like the two Open Orthodox rabbis, or the one Chassidish place. This isn’t just the Agudah, this is pretty much the entire frum community of Baltimore. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of Yidden. And it influenced many other places, including a large percentage of the New York and Lakewood shuls. The earliest Baltimore places opened was Elul of 2020 and every shul had masks and social distancing for at least the first few months.
@common-saychel
You seem to be unaware of who Rav Heineman SHLITA is if you think he has a following of 800 people. Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.
@Avram-in-MD If the shul took precautions but did not enforce them, I would not say they were careless. And I would not defend the people that snitched on them to the health department. However, you and I both know (and there’s no use in denying it) that plenty of shuls just went “Oh well nothing we could have done” to all the dead, hospitalized, lung, and brain damaged people and opened up in the early summer of 2020 with zero precautions and completely defying any health department regulations.
@common-saychel What guilty feelings do you think they have? I’m not familiar with the individual views of individual CR users.
@coffee-addict Look, we can spend the next ten years discussing every Trump supporter who claims to have undeniable evidence of wrongdoing. But that would take too much time and not server much purpose. That’s why I picked one particular example (the Georgia statistics) to discuss. Mainly because it was used in an official capacity on one of the most contentious elections. So far not one person on this thread has given a response on that other than “Well I don’t believe statistics”.
I’ve looked into multiple proofs that Trumps’ team has discussed and haven’t found one with a leg to stand on. So I’m extremely skeptical that Mr. DiSouza’s movie and book contain better facts and information than those officially brought in front of judges. Now let me ask you something: Is it better to disbelieve something that you haven’t seen proof of, or believe something before you’ve seen the proof?
Baruch Hashem! I was getting tired of lukewarm air. And it means that snow season is almost upon us!
I don’t like Stacy Adams, but she stood up for Israel and against anti-Semitism in ways that her progressive fanbase did not. For that alone, I don’t think we should talk bad about her.
@Always_Ask_Questions I’m not sure if it was @common-saychel, but a while ago I was in an argument with a user about COVID restrictions. This user promoted all sorts of dangerous nonsense, including the idea that there should be zero COVID restrictions and that masks are physically harmful. He/she kept on referring to myself as part of the “pro-mask” or “pro-vaxx” group (one of those, I don’t recall). In return I said something along the lines of “If there are two groups, one is pro-mask the other is pro-death”. I think think that was the conversation and that is what @common-saychel is upset about and does not want to give me the mechila I don’t need.