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@Always_Ask_Questions If they are not necessarily in Lakewood then they aren’t in Lakewood and irrelevant to our discussion. Furthermore, I find that kids in schools who offer optional studies rarely take advantage of them and most just do the bare minimum.
There is a huge failure in Yiddishkeit that we are now considering studies like math, science, and history to be bad.
The Rishonim and Acharonim are full of examples where gedolim learned from goyim. From Greek philosophers, to Persian mathematicians, to 17th century medicine, we find all of these in our seforim and no one ever felt the need to explain nor apologize.
@Avram-in-MD Fair enough. Teens at risk isn’t a phenomena restricted to certain communities with certain hashkafas. However, although many teens become at risk because of personal problems, making it an issue in every community, different hashkafas have different things that put their teens at risk and have to put out different ways of helping them. In many MO communities, teens become too enamored with the dark sides of secular society so they have organizations like NCSY to steer them on the right path. In some communities, however, they close their ears and say “La la la can’t hear you learn more Torah!” instead of addressing the 800 pound gorilla.
@n0mesorah That’s incorrect. There are several high schools in Lakewood that predate the “nothing but Gemara” nonsense and they are some of the only places (other than the Cheder, Slomowitz’s and one or two others) that have to turn down more bachurim than they accept.
It’s not that there isn’t a market for it, it’s just that the type of person who is starting a high school in Lakewood has a lot of pressure to “keep up with the Cohenses” in order to attract the Top Guys. And with the current trends, that means cutting out most of the important subjects teens need to learn. It has the added advantage of making the school much cheaper and simpler to run, since the staff numbers are easily 1/4 of what they should be.
Everyone (except @ujm and @kuvult) is correct. Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel have long recognized this as a problem. Not every teenager is equipped to learning eight hours a day. When they get frustrated at the extremely limited options they are given, they lash out and become rebels. If Yeshivos are so insistent on this Apikorsus of forbidding any classes that aren’t Gemara and Halacha, they should at least give the boys an option to take up a vocation. Be a car mechanic, carpenter, painter, artist! Kids need an outlet!
Einstein spoke at length about his beliefs and I think at one time called himself Spinozan. He was very openly in denial of Hashem’s mastery over the world (his famous comment on Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle that “[Hashem] doesn’t play dice with the universe” non-with standing).
And to be fair, the only reason Kol Torah had Ivrit shiurim was because of all the German and Italian bochurim who came to it after the war, attracted by the German Roshei Yeshivos, Rav Schlesinger and Rav Kunstadt.
Polygraphs are pretty inaccurate. They are mostly a psychological test that relies more on intimidation than actual science.
@Always_Ask_Questions It will be a cold cold day in Ecuador before I acknowledge that crossing by any other name!
I would like to go with Nikki Haley’s suggestion that presidential candidates should take a tough psychological test before they run. I don’t think Biden would have passed it.
The path along the Hudson River just north of the Tappan Zee Bridge in Nanuet is a great biking place.
Wasabi that you buy in the store or find in your sushi tray is generally just powdered horseradish with green food coloring.
@coffee-addict “What is the machlokes between the Vilna Gaon and Rav Meir in Baba Kama about corn?” Narischkeit in, narischkeit out.
Can you write a rant about pointless sophistry on the Internet and how it is Bad For The Jews?
There are legitimate books questioning entire historical events that everyone “knows” happened because the only reports were third hand years after they happened. Questioning what people tell you, even with pictures and sound, isn’t anything new.
In 1938, the New York Times reported that a CBS drama based on H. G. Wells’s The War of the Worlds was taken as a serious broadcast by thousands of people across the nation. They barricaded themselves in their homes, and some even committed suicide rather than be taken by aliens! They printed a picture of a farmer holding a rifle behind a wall, protecting his home from the invaders.
Well, it never happened. The recording was widely available at any records store, and anyone listening to it would be immediately skeptical (it was announced that this was a special fictional program several times, there were commercial breaks, and the whole fake news broadcast segment was only about half of it, maybe 25 minutes long). And yet people to this day believe it to be true.
The Machlokes (disagreement) between the Vilna Gaon and Rav Meir in Baba Kama concerns whether a watchman who steals corn from the field he is watching must pay back the value of the corn or the value of the flour that can be made from the corn. The Vilna Gaon holds that he must pay back the value of the corn, while Rav Meir holds that he must pay back the value of the flour.
@ujm The RCA never accepted Open Orthodox geirus as valid. That, in my opinion, is a much bigger sticking point.
@CTLAWYER I wish I can find a better citation, but sifrei halacha state that men and women cannot swim together, regardless of how they’re dressed.
@AviraDeArah We’ve discussed this ad nauseum. There is a certain population of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” that don’t really openly follow the Torah. This has always been the case. This will continue to be the case ad biyas goel b’mheira v’yamaynu. If I would have to guess, a huge percentage of them are Sephardi, since non-frum Sephardim didn’t have a history with Reform and Conservative, so most of them just stuck with “parking the car around the corner on Shabbat” style Judaism. It is a problem that people don’t follow Torah and mitzvos. But that isn’t a Modern Orthodox problem, that’s just a problem problem. MO just happens to appeal to these people more than most other groups. You statistical facts are important, but not really anything of note. Fakhert, it shows that the number of people who consider themselves Orthodox yet don’t try to follow Torah and Mitzvos is shrinking and they have no support nor leadership that encourages their behavior.Because, like I’ve said, at the end of the day we need to first take the beam out of our own eyes and accept that the current Yeshivish trends are a much greater danger to us than non-frum Jews.
In technical terms, ChatGPT is a gateway to the GPT-3 large language model using natural language prompts. GPT-3 is a deep layered transformer predictive text model trained on a massive amount of text with almost five billion tokens.
In English, ChatGPT processes natural English language speech into something that GPT-3 can understand and give you the resulting text. GPT-3 is a collection of math equations that a series of computers spent several months learning so that it can take in a group of words (as long as those words are within the 500 billion words it recognizes), run some math on them, and produce some more words.
It’s very impressive, but it lies a lot. For some background, I work in artificial intelligence (you can be bochen me later). It’s main function is a text generator. It will produce text, that’s all. Other than some manual safeguards to prevent people from getting it to say bigoted things or instructions on illegal activity, it literally cannot tell the difference between the truth and something that sounds true. It will answer any shayloh you give it. But generally only the things that have reams of text already answering them. If you ask a specific question and request mekoros, it will probably produce a long essay with some made up sources that only makes sense in a cursory manner.
Dear All,
The very real problems of Modern Orthodoxy that have been stated and repeated again and again in this thread pale in comparison to the holier-than-thou problems of am ha’aratzus the American Yeshiva world is currently ignoring.
@lakewhut And you know this from your vast experience davening in many MO shuls across the country?
@coffee-addict Everything depends on the shul. Some MO shuls are very serious, some the oilom barely davens. Some Yeshivish shuls are dead quiet, some you can’t hear the Chazzan. Some Chassidishe shuls are full with the kol teffilah, some don’t even have a minyan of people who aren’t busy with coffee or kugel.@coffee-addict I’ve never seen any correlation between type of community and how someone acts in shul. I’ve seen Chassidish shuls where everyone is eating and schmoozing during davening. I’ve seen MO shuls where the whole place is rigid and quiet. I think in the more left-wing barely-frum places, some people rarely come to shul, so when they do they are very serious about it.
@lakewhut While I appreciate you starting this discussion, I’m going to say something, Yid to Yid, that I hope comes from a place of ahava. Kindly stop discussing things you know nothing about.
If you’re too Yeshivish to accept boyfriend/girlfriend then “girl/boy I am currently seeing” should be right up your alleys.
@AviraDeArah I seem to recall a while back that MO teens would constantly talk about negiah like frum people talked about Lashon Horah. Meaning, that the well-intentioned kids knew it was something they were supposed to do and be careful about, even if it was all around them and they themselvesfaltered from time to time. My understanding was that this was due to a campaign by MO Rabbonim, which is why the phrase “Shomer Negiah” is very common and not, I dunno, “Shomer K’Layim”.
I agree. Many MO communities have accepted goyishe values over Torah values. However, as I’ve stated numerous times before and as you yourself admit, those communities are dying. They don’t have leadership that supports such values, and most of the oilom in that boat are either making Aliyah, becoming frummer, or just heading towards full non-observance.
Again, the current trends in Yeshivish communities to one-up each other on how k/frum we can be by throwing away important parts of our lives and education, is an acute danger to our Klal.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
@Avira,
Teaching girls and women gemara is like a galaxy away from negiah in the sense that negiah is an actual direct aveira. I know of plenty of MO Rabbis who encourage (or at least don’t discourage) women learning Gemara. However, I never heard of any discouraging negiah or saying that filters aren’t necessary. I seem to recall that “Shomer Negiah” is a huge campaign in MO circles with Rabbis and teachers encouraging their students to keep it.
Lemme as you something: What would you rather? A small patch of thick mold in your house that’s the remnants of a much larger infestation that’s currently shrinking, or a large patch of near-invisible mold that doesn’t look as bad but is rapidly growing?
A good percentage of them are Guatamalen converts. So not even the whole cult is Jewish.
Anti-Semites gotta anti-Semite
@avirahdearah You posed your dilemma in a manner of sheker that has nothing to do with our conversation. Like I said, the question was regarding communities and their impact on Yiddishkeit. You did some tricks, moved some words around, and posed a question of individuals. Yes, it’s better for an individual to seek Olom HaBoh if it means giving up his Olom HaZeh. You may as well ask if changing a shoelace can allow a Choson and Kallah to say Shevah Brachos as that makes it a Punim Chadashos.
In the case of the two communities in question, the trend of banning anything but Gemara and Halacha in boys schools is an acute danger to the Olom HaBoh and Olom HaZeh of American Yiddishkeit. The dying ideas of Modern Orthodox Jews who don’t keep mitzvos are far less of a danger to our communities and have been less and less of a danger every year.
Also can we please stop talking about whatever this Rav Belsky ZT”L situation is? I am unfamiliar with it and I really really don’t want to know any more.
Not dissimilar to chocolate chip pickle cookies.
@ujm The people who you affectionately call “LWMO” made up the vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” for decades. They are now the minority. Most of their Rabbonim are very against their ways of life (Baruch Hashem we no longer have many Rabbis who are forced to either accept davening without a mechitza or lose their only parnoso) and most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox, move to Eretz Yisroel, or become much more frum.
So I don’t see the existence of “LWMO” as an issue that needs to be addressed, since it seems to be resolving itself without outside “help” (which never seemed to work). However, I do see there being a rising danger in the issues I mentioned in the frum “RWY” communities.
In 1999 technology people were telling everyone that when clocks hit the year 2000, it will break almost all computers in the world and we will see a massive doomsday. 2000 came and went without a hitch and everyone laughed at Bill Gates. The thing that they didn’t see is the legions of programmers working tug unt nacht to make sure that 2000 will come and go without a hitch.
In the 1960s environmental people were telling everyone that people are consuming too many resources too quickly, burning up the atmosphere, and creating too many chemicals that cannot decompose into the environment. They said that at the current rate, there will not be enough food and resources to keep people alive in 30 years. Those thirty years came and went with nary a hitch and everyone laughed at those Malthusian fools. The thing that the didn’t see was the massive amount of efforts that went on both in public and behind the scenes to make sure the governments and corporations massively cut down on environmentally damaging actions along with huge changes to how food is grown and how resources are harvested.
@aviradearah I don’t think you called MO “worthless”, but I just looked back at some of your comments and you said “MO contribute nothing”, claiming that they give their money to art museums instead of tzedaka. So I would have to vehemently disagree with you on literally every thing you said:
- Modern Orthodox people give tons to tzedaka
- Modern Orthodox people do not give a lot of museums
- Modern Orthodox people contribute plenty
- You absolutely called them “worthless”
@aviradearah What would you rather? That a man be nichshol in speaking Lashon Hora all day every day, or that he gives all of his money to tzedaka?
What you are presenting is a false dichotomy. Not only is it ridiculous to assume that the only two choices in life are to be an Am Ha’aretz in one way or another, but that isn’t even what I’m discussing! There’s a massive difference between the actions of a community and the choices of an individual, it’s incomparable!
So I would have to say, going back to my actual question, that I would rather a minority of a dying minority continue doing the anti-Torah things that they always did, than a growing majority follow a different, but still dangerous, anti-Torah path.
I don’t know what your job is, but I recall that MTA (YU’s high school) had a Satmar Chusid on staff as one of the Rebbeim. I was told that it was pretty well known that he had explicit instructions from the hanhalla what he could and could not say. Any discussion about Israel was obviously assur.
@ujm Please address my actual point about the educational tracts that are rapidly becoming the norm and stop trying to derail this into a conversation about college.
@AviraDeArah Your raya is from those Chassidim who live in cloistered communities and forbid any education they consider “outside”. We’ve well established on multiple occasions in this thread that they are not successful. Specifically, they rely very heavily on outside communities (tzedaka, legal council, political clout, etc.) to keep them going.Like I said previously, MO communities promoting problematic anti-Yiddisheh things have been around forever and are dying out, which is why they aren’t as much of a problem as the growing trend of “Holy Am Ha’aratzus” in our own places.
@ujm There are a lot of contradictions and machlokesim in how the post-war 20th century gedolim spoke and acted on college, so “I heard from a talmid of Rav Moshe that said that he once heard….” doesn’t mean anything. Besides, I don’t know what put that bee in your bonnet regarding colleges. We’re talking about basic knowledge, not Masters Degrees.
I repeat: At the end of the day, in our times, we as Jews are not tzaddikim gemurim, so everything we do is b’dieved because of that. We need basic understanding of a variety of subjects (other than just Gemara and halacha) to get by in the world. Parnoso is one reason. Being able to communicate effectively to non-Yeshiva people is another. Understanding the changes in society and technology and how to understand it through the lens of halacha is a third. The trend of lack of education in todays Yeshivos, and the cloistering of certain communities, is a terrible thing that is damaging Klal Yisroel to zero benefit. In comparison, the damage that some MO communities do by insisting that co-ed high schools are good and proper, is miniscule.
While on the subject of FrumTeens, didn’t Rav Shapiro spends pages and pages of pixels trying to explain how his father taught in YU?
I believe that Vizhnitz Monsey has a takanah to only give cubic zirconium engagement rings and synthetic fur streimels, so that parents shouldn’t bankrupt themselves on trivialities.
@lakewhut What you are describing is called in English “stealing from the government” and in Loshon HaKodesh “G’neivas Akum”. Like I said to the other guy, I’m not mekabel that such things happen on a large enough basis to affect reported income levels. That’s pure Lashon Horah.
@aviradearah What you’re saying is that even in the Yeshivish interpretations of the German mehalech, secular studies are needed for both Torah and parnoso. Let’s just stop there. The controversy of Rav Hirsch was not that he encouraged secular studies, but that he encouraged it more than other Rabbonim felt necessary. No Litvish post-war institution up until the last 20 or 30 years said that Gemara-only is the mehalech for boys after they’re Bar Mitzvah. That mehalech is wrong and we are seeing it now with less and less men able to make a parnoso or interact with the world as necessary. Who will fight the government when they come after Yeshivos if the next generation can’t even talk to goyim in a way that they can understand?
@ujm I don’t understand your point. If some goy wants to spend all of his time and money getting a useless degree and rely on his and his non-gender-specific-significant-other low paying job to afford their life, that’s his prerogative. However, if a Yid chooses to live in a lifestyle that forbids his wife from holding a job, and forbids him from working for more than 50k annually, without being mevatel pirya v’rivya, that is also his choice. But the fact remains that such a life is impossible without massive amount of support from people who do not live such a life. And it should not fall as a burden to the oilom to support such an individual. Forget Yisochar/Zevulum, that involves supporting a person who shows that he is capable of sitting and learning his whole life, not supporting entire communities to raise their children teaching them tiflus. As Yidden we need a basic understanding of how the world works along with math and sciences. If you want to say the only reason is for parnoso, then fine! But it’s still absolutely necessary!To all of you: The current education trends in the frum community are a very real danger. They go against the Torah and are setting us up to have to rely on open miracles to survive. This is absolutely a bigger problem then whatever it is that has you guys all worked up about Modern Orthodox philosophy or whatever.
That’s nice. Can you also give your opinion on the Zeta function zeroes, information loss due to Hawking radiation, and the formation of sedimentary pyrites?
@AvirahDeArah I am close with more than one person who knew Rav Breuer ZT”L personally and they all said that his interpretation of Rav Hirsch’s “Torah Im Derech Eretz” was that the Derech Eretz has purpose, not just to make a parnoso. Do you think Rav Breuer got a doctorate so that he can make more money? And on that I agree and you should too. Banning children from learning anything other than Gemara and Halacha is against Yiddishkeit and would lead to our communities being lost in this world. Again, the communities that follow these tracks only survive because rely very heavily on people who don’t.
@lakewhut That isn’t true at all. Income is income. A nursing home manager in New Square isn’t Elon Musk with billions tied up in stocks and securities.
@ujm I was going according to the census of Palm Tree, which is 100% Satmar. Orange County as a whole has a much higher median wage. Also, your analysis is soiser itself. An household income of 30k is half the median household income. If you’re saying it’s because only one of the spouses has an income, then that’s the reason. It still puts them far below the poverty line and entirely reliant on socialist government policies and tzedaka.@ujm According to the latest census of Palm Tree, Orange County, Monroe, NY the median income is $40,000 which is almost half the median income of the rest of the US of $70,000. So please don’t tell me this narischkeit of large families being the reason for the poverty levels. The Agudah’s defense of this is that the community is younger than average. That does not however translate to the massive discrepancy in income shown here. Simply put, the Agudah’s white paper is wrong.
Good for them. Environmentalism does little to affect Jewish life in the short term (oh boo hoo, I have to put my bottles in a different can, and bring my own bags to the supermaket) but out of all things that goyim can get worked up over, this one is probably the most in line with the Torah and best thing for life in the long run. I don’t know about you folk, but I like the fact that these days it’s not unusual to see the night sky above NYC. That was not always the case.
@AvirahDeArah I didn’t come here to bash or defend Chassidim. I came to say that the idea of a school that stops teaching anything but Gemara and Halacha is against the Torah and absolutely unsustainable in both the short and long run. You are arguing that Chassidim (specifically Satmar) are the proof against this since they are successful, but the men barely know more than 2+2 by the time they’re adults. (And the Rebbe saying Kollel is good for a few short years is exactly what I meant. He did not want the current Litvish trend of long term Kollel as the default).
But either you’re intentionally fudging the truth or your metrics for success are way off. Going on tons of federal aid because of large family sizes is fine, however there are goyishe communities (Quiverful, Mormons, etc.) who have similar family sizes and aren’t relying on handouts nearly as much. If your criteria for success means that 90% of a community has to rely on tzedaka and poverty aid, then I’m afraid we won’t see eye to eye. And yes, I have lived amongst Chassidim. No, they don’t all do well. Many can make it by and still put up a good front of living nicely (sometimes even legally), many more spend a huge percentage of their time literally begging.
Again, without the intervention of the Agudah and Misnagdish askanim in many of the Chassidishe community’s problems, who knows where they would be? They have to rely not only on tzedaka and the government, but also other Yidden who didn’t choose their life choices, just to stay afloat! That is not success.
You talk about college. I wasn’t talking about college (in which you’re wrong, BTW, many gedolim encouraged college when they recognized it didn’t have the same danger as the European gymnasiums, Rav Breuer ZT”L was controversial because he said that college is important to be a Jew, not just to make a parnoso. Even many of Rav Aharaon’s ZT”L original BMG talmidim ended up in college). I was talking about basic skills and knowledge that your average Chaim Berliner learns in the afternoon. If you take that away from most of klal Yisroel (as the Yeshivishe oilom is currently doing), you will have much bigger problems than MO kids from barely shomer Shabbos families eating treif.
The counties and zip codes have been compared. The Chassidishe ones are overwhelming more poverty stricken than the others according to US census. If they don’t “capture all sources of income”, then I guess what you’re saying is that they are getting by with hiding income, g’neivas akum, and dina d’malchusa. Not mekabel Lashon Horah like that.
@lakewhut Everything else aside, you’re making a lot of objective statements bashing other frum Yidden with nothing in the way of evidence to back it up. “Chassidim give more than modern” isn’t a factual statement. It’s an opinion.
And I’m going to have to hotly disagree with you that exherting power and taking on local governments is always a good thing. Plenty of times this power was used for personal gain and often it was used in ways that created a massive chillul Hashem. Besides, in the current big matziv where New York is going after Yeshivos, it’s the Agudah, with their askanim who are knowledgeable and educated in the ways of the world, putting their necks on the line for the Chassidim who are unable to do the same.
@AvirahDeArah Don’t pick on one aspect of my comment and ignore the rest. I addressed your questions, now you address mine. I only brought up “Horeb” as an example of a non-Gemara curriculum that Yeshivos can follow (notably, it doesn’t mention teaching your kids to choose their own pronouns).
Satmar, to their credit, encourage their Chassidim to learn business and go into it. (The same cannot be said of many other Yeshivish and Chassidishe communities.) I’ve heard once that if the Rebbe ZT”L would have agreed with Rav JB Soleveitchik ZT”L on one thing, it was kollel. The big Satmar companies, however, are still just yechidim. A few hundred successes in a sea of tens of thousands. And of those tens of thousands, many have reportable income far below poverty level. I think something like nearly half of all Palm Tree residents are on Welfare and Food Stamps, which is far far above national average. You cannot point to a handful of nursing homes and mortgage brokers and say “Well it obviously works” when on the other side you have that.
@ujm I think that the authors of those articles are a little too optimistic about the lifstyles that the OTD generation grew up with. Take a poll of people in their 30s who went to a MO Co-Ed highschool and I would venture to guess you will find few that made any effort to put on teffilin every day, or be careful about mitzvos when they weren’t in school or shul. This is already two or three generations down the line. Of course kids are going off the derech! Their parents were barely on it to begin with!
@AviraDeArah So you think it’s appropriate to (as Chazal tell us) teach your children how to steal? Because all your justifications don’t amount to much against that one thing.Yes, Acharonim recognized that we are not on the level of our predecessors. We simply cannot gain everything we need to know from the Torah alone. We need to learn about the world around us. Studies of math and science aren’t “secular”, they are part of what we need to know. I’m not saying that you can’t learn Torah without other learning, but that other learning is absolutely an essential aspect of Jewish life. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Tosfos explains a geometry problem in the same way Socrates wrote it out hundreds of years earlier? Could the Agudah have launched their offensive against the New York government and Times without the help of hundreds of frum lawyers and people experienced in writing? Would we have Shabbos ovens had not engineers worked with GE and designed what was needed?
That’s not to say we need to have gender studies classes in Bais Yaakov C”V. I doubt even the most liberal MO schools have gone that far. It means what I said (and you conveniently ignored). Yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs need to teach basic science, language, and social studies. There is a chapter in Rav Hirsch’s Horeb where he outlines a school curriculum. It’s probably not nogeya today (this being 21st century America, not 19th century Germany) but it’s a great insight into what is needed.
Communities who live with this apikorsus idea of a Torah lifestyle means “only Gemara and halacha” absolutely are not “wildly successful in business”. For the most part they are destitute and rely on a combination of tzedaka and government handouts, with many of the more desperate ones resorting to cheating with things like cash-only businesses. There are yechidim that are successful and they (along with educated Torah Jews who are a bit naive from outside the community) keep the whole house of cards from falling. You have your facts as wrong as the NY Times does.
@ujm The OTD rate is misleading. Most of those MO people who leave you would be surprised that they ever considered themselves “Orthodox”.
@AviraDeArah “Bilingual” is a stretch, I doubt most people who grew up in the “Gemara only” Yeshivos can have full conversations in more than one language. Many can barely have conversations in their native tongue to people outside of their social areas. And if the only reason was “Navigating the American system” I may concede that you have a point. It’s however far more reaching than that. Knowledge of basic language, science, math, history, and geography are crucial to our Torah values. We are not RASHBI, we can’t live our lives on Bitachon alone. I would go as far as to say that raising children completely ignorant and closed off from the world is sinfulness, apikorsus, and the upheaval of yiddishe values.And no, people who grow up like that for the most part do not have “physical success”. Some neighborhoods have economies equivalent to that of third world countries with many families relying on theft from the government just to make ends meet. And the rampant ignorance of basic concepts tevah and society has lead to crazy situations such as disease outbreaks, and kids getting thrown into jail in Japan for smuggling drugs. When the current NY government got all up in their business about this very issue, it fell to the Agudah to try and bail them out. Which is kind of ironic.
I would argue that MO for the most part does not have leaders who encourage “institutionalized heresy and promotion of sin”. Sure the individuals may follow these paths, even some entire communities as a whole, but (again, with the exception of some notable individuals) you’re not going to find Jewish Action promoting that people start dating in high school nor will NCSY give classes on how to understand the Documentary Hypothesis (Rachmono l’tzlan).