If you want a visual, animated, interactive demonstration, search for “Research on Complex Systems: D3 Herd Immunity Simulator”.

It creates a population of 300 simulated people, and you can set how fast they have children and how many are immunized. When you run it, it clearly demonstrates why a high vaccination rate is crucial to the overall health of a group of people.

@doomsday I’ll answer the question again. There is no verified study other than Wakefield’s that shows a link between disease immunization and autism. You think otherwise and told me to look up that webpage with “24 studies”. I refuted that with another webpage I found showing how those studies are not evidence for a link.

We are talking about the study: “A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism” yes? Because I’m having a difficult time seeing your points in the study. In fact, I couldn’t even find your points on the anti-immunization sites I pulled this from. Where did you get your information?

1. Patients before 1992 were counted from hospitals, after 1992 they counted the total population: I don’t see anything in the study that differentiates between the datasets per year.
2. after 1992The Danish Government Changed the Definition of Autism: Shouldn’t this be a pretty big red flag that your initial assumptions are incorrect? This kind of proves that you cannot correlate the increase in autism rates with any increase in immunization.
3. the Fake Researchers [deleted] the entire year of data 2001 for seven year old children from its final published report.: Again, I think we are reading different studies. The CDC “Danish Study” only looks at data from 1991 to 1999.

@Takes2-2tango It’s a well known fact that Rav Moshe Heineman SHLITA enjoys fixing things and handiwork. He used to fix his own cars until he was told it’s pas nisht for a rov. I know people who have asked him shaylos on issues they had with their car.

As for the “Danish Study”, two seconds on Google found an article on the website “Science Based Medicine”, search for the title “The curious case of Poul Thorsen, fraud and embezzlement, and the Danish vaccine-autism studies”.

Basically, Thorsen is a fraud. But he only worked on two studies and wasn’t even the primary researcher on either. The data from the studies is still valid and so is the data on dozens of other studies that show no link between immunization and autism.

@kavod Habriot

You are arguing from emotion, not logic. Take a step back and think for yourself. What science? What history? Have vaccines been an overall benefit or danger to society? What happened to polio? Smallpox? How many people over the age of 60 have permanent illnesses because of measles? How does measles, mumps, and rubella affect newborns? Chemo patients?

@RebYidd23 As opposed to printing on celery which inkjets excel at?

@ZionGate It’s comparable in quality. But if you’re doing professional photos, you want a specialized photo printer, not a $50 HP so this comparison isn’t nogeya.

You’re buying printers wrong. Ink jet printers are awful. The companies actually lose money selling the printers and make all the profit on ink. Therefore the printers are incredibly flimsy, waste ink like it’s water, and replacement ink costs more than a good esrog.

Get a Brother or Canon laser printer. I did and never looked back. They are expensive (several hundred dollars) but they rarely run out of toner, print really fast, and work like a charm.

I think at some point we will have to rethink how we approach the anti-medicine community. Obviously logic doesn’t work. Announcements and psak halacha from chachomim doesn’t work. Debate doesn’t work. Ridicule doesn’t work. Attacks don’t work. Having their children literally get sick and (C”V) potentially die doesn’t work.

I’m all out of ideas, thoughts?

To add to my previous comment. The debate over vaccinations is no more a debate than the debate over flat Earth, whether the President is an alien, and government mind-control satellites. Not surprisingly, they are all discussed in the same forums.

So if you want people to discuss “both sides” and continue to pretend that this is a debate, just know that you sound no different than the people that claimed the world will end in 2012.

Kingdomino and its sequel/expansion Queendomino are excellent games.

Because on the surface it seems as if Republican and conservative values align more with Torah values than Democratic and liberal ones.

In reality, they are all apikorsim whose only values lie in tayva. Look at the Great and Might Trump, for example. Is this menuval really supposed to be the pinnacle of what a Jew should vote for just because he made some token gestures about Israel? Also I find it extremely ironic that those who benefit the most from liberal social programs like Medicare, FAFSA, Section 8, and WIC are the ones that vote overwhelmingly Republican.

Democrats are bad. Republicans are bad. As a klal we need to start looking more objectively at politics and decide to support those that are slightly less damaging in their policies.

@LogicalMom As you agree that you were wrong about thimerisol due to a misunderstanding of how chemistry works, perhaps you can take a second look at everything else you believe about vaccinations?

And I’ve read Dr. Humphries’s essay. I don’t need to be smarter than her or more qualified than her to say it’s nonsense. I just need to find people that are. And it’s not very difficult. I’ve found almost no one as smart and as qualified as her that actually agrees with her and literally thousands who consider her a dangerous quack. Why do you insist on following the insignificant minority of experts who hold of her and ignore the overwhelming vast majority of unbiased opinions that consider her a liar?

@doomsday

If thimerisol contains mercury making it dangerous to ingest, then salt contains chloride making it dangerous to eat, water contains hydrogen making it dangerous to drink, etc.

The chemical compound is made up of mercury which is a completely different ballgame than the dangerous form of liquid metal mercury.

@LogicalMom

You are wrong about Wakefield. He did some serious ethical breaches to produce the data that was used in his infamous study. It was enough of an issue that he lost his license. Not because “they” didn’t want the truth to come out. Initially he had the support of many members of the medical community, but when it became clear that he was untrustworthy, a fear-monger, and an attention addict, everyone backed down including his 11 collaborators. Doctors later expressed surprise that the study even passed peer review since the data shown in the paper didn’t even support the conclusions and there were some serious doubts if the data itself was correct.

Not to mention that it spurned numerous other studies that showed absolutely no link between GI diseases and the MMR vaccine. Why fixate on a retracted study when there are many more that show no correlation between vaccines and autism?

• “Unintended events following immunization with MMR: a systematic review” (2003) Vaccine. Jefferson, Price, et all.
• “MMR vaccine and autism: an update of the scientific evidence” (2014) Expert Review of Vaccines. DeStephano, Thompson
• “Immunizations and Autism: A Review of the Literature” (2006) Canadian Journal of Neurological Sciences. Doja and Roberts

. Yes its in the form of thimerisol which is 50% mercury but difference does that make as to the exact chemistry name of it?

What difference does it make? All the difference in the world! Salt is a molecule made up of one sodium atom and one chloride atom. Sodium is an incredibly destructive chemical that can cause fires just by touching water. Chloride is literally poison. But table salt is perfectly safe. Same with thimerisol. It’s not “50% mercury”, it’s organic molecule has a mercury atom in it.

@LogicalMom

I’m not going to refute all of your points, but I’m certain they aren’t any more logical than the fake fear mongering Wakefield invented to start the modern scare. So let me pick on the most obvious one:

At no point in any time in history did any vaccine contain mercury.

It’s a misconception based on misunderstanding of chemistry. Vaccines used to contain thimerison which is an organomercury compound. It’s related to the mercury you find in old thermometers in the same way in which highly flammable hydrogen gas is related to water (H2O). The reason it was removed was because of fear mongering by people like Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy.

Unfortunately I’ve come to believe (and e/o is welcome to their own opinion of who they would like to believe) that the CDC has falsified information in their favor.

@truthishidden @sariray

Then your beliefs are wrong. That claim was publicized by a fellow named Andrew Wakefield, the same Andrew Wakefield who invented the claim that vaccines cause autism and lost his medical license after he falsified data trying to prove it. The CDC has done other studies and re-examined the data of the study in question and came to the same conclusion.

We can keep playing Wack-A-Mole with data, claims, anecdotes, all day long, but you can be rest assured that for everything you bring up that seems to imply that vaccinations are dangerous there is a rock-solid scientific reason why that is not so.

Do you know how I know that you are biased and that vaccination is the right way to go, no questions asked? Because of how you argue. It’s always the same. First there’s a claim from one shady place about the dangers of immunization. That’s proven to not only be false, but completely bogus. Then there’s another claim from another place with a similar rebuttal. Then a third, then a fourth. At a certain point an unbiased debater will say “Well if so much of what I believe is based on narischkeit, maybe I should re-examine it” But not anti-vaxxers. You will keep pulling more and more absurd and out-of-context “evidence” to push your agenda no matter how many times it’s proven false.

And then there’s the tiny amounts of “evidence” required to cement your beliefs versus the mountains of evidence you require to contradict them. A falsified study, a claim by a website, a letter by a Rov, an anecdote by a random person, good enough to say vaccines are bad! But to say they are good, you require notarized letters from every doctor, researcher, and Gadol in history!

As much as I would like to agree in terms of Lubavitch (entire sedorim dedicated to memorizing random letters a man wrote to someone 50 years ago is not Yiddishkeit), they do learn rishonim and acharonim and they do not have a single living “guru” who demands that they do nothing without his or her say so.

@Mariana Santos: Not just the hardcore anti-Semites. Even the cowardly “I only criticize Zionism” types have difficulty explaining why they level the same “criticism” at Jews of every stripe and color.

@RebbYidd23

That’s another issue. People keep trying to frame this as a “debate” or “science machlokes”. It’s nothing of the sort! There’s literally no debate, there are just normal people and people who reject hard facts and logic.

L’Havdil, if I would say that in Halacha there’s a debate whether the Chachomim are correct and their psak stands forever, or to go like Reform and the Torah (C”V) needs to be “reexamined” I would be reamed over hot coals, banned from this site, and called a kofer. It’s the same thing with this fantasy of there being a “vaccine safety debate”.

@truthishidden

Do you know what? Even if every one of your studies leads to the conclusions you are claiming they lead to it would still mean that it’s imperative to vaccinate. Because all those studies show is that there may be some side effects of immunizing. But on the other hand, it is a fact that not immunizing can not only lead to horrible permanent damage or death due to measles or whooping cough. And not only in the people who refuse to vaccinate but also in the 5% of people who vaccinated whose bodies didn’t respond to the vaccine, to the infants who are too young to get the shot, to the elderly with compromised immune systems, to people who nebech are undergoing chemo therapy.

Let’s do this in some visual, yeah? Imagine the studies are all fine and good, this would be the world today. “O”
is someone who is vaccinated, “o” is someone without the vaccine either by choice or medical necessity (infants, immune compromised, egg allergies, etc). Let’s say that’s %5 of people.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

So you say there are adverse side affects to vaccination, ok, let’s limit that to side affects that cause lasting damage and/or death. We’ll mark them as “X” and say it happens to 0.5% of people which is way higher than what the people opposed to vaccination claim it is.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

Really a tragedy. OK, now let’s say that instead of 95% of people vaccinating, it’s more like 70%. Then our population would look something like this:

OOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOoo

That “X” disappeared! Yay! Less vaccinations means less likelihood of someone getting hurt from one!

Now let’s take measles as a factor. According to the CDC, measles can cause death 0.15% of the time and other lasting damage about 1% of the time. Let’s go with our original vaccination rates and assume that only unimmunized people will get the disease. They will be denoted as “M” in this chart. Again, a large “X” is someone damaged from a vaccine, but we’ll add a small “x” for someone damaged from measles.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOOXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

One person got measles, recovered, and only able to pass it on to one person. Let’s see how that plays out in a less vaccinated population:

OOOOoOOOMxOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMxOOOOoOOOoo

Far more people received the virus because it is more likely to spread. So no one was damaged by the vaccines, but we have two people with severe issues emanated from the measles virus.

According to these numbers, an unvaccinated population is more than twice as likely to see permanent injury or other lasting damage than an immunized one.

Any kashes?

@Rand0m3x: You’re suggesting Eclipse and telling me that Agricola isn’t gateway enough?

I just found out that there’s a third game in the “Forbidden” series called Forbidden Space. Looks like fun, but a little more complicated than its predecessors.

Hanabi is an amazing family game that’s also small and cheap.

I don’t need rabbinic support to tell me what any first year medical student knows.

The sad fact is that in the case of vaccines, there are several prominent rabbonim that have been misguided by fools and liars. Since there is no Torah nor halachic cheshbon to use to figure out if vaccination is the right thing to do, Rabbonim have to rely on secular knowledge. And some rabbonim, R”L, mistook the fools for the educated ones.

If anyone has any questions about Lev Tahor or doubt the reports from the frum news sources, just read the Ami article from a few years ago. Ami tried really hard to paint them in the best light possible, and were severely criticized for it. But even in this whitewashed picture that Ami tried to paint, the rough edges are still pretty glaring. In an interview, one guru admits to taking kids away from uncooperative parents and waves his hand saying “We don’t do that so much anymore”. When asked about the teen and child marriages the only answer given was “A 12 year old girl is old enough to marry k’halacha”.

Lakewood and Monsey are lost causes in terms of traffic. There never should have been that many people living in such close proximity with only one or two roads that can get you where you want to go.

But everyone who insists on zoning enforcement is an antisemite amirite?

I’ve always found Brian Greene to have the best explanations on physics. Gerald Schroeder gives a good one too, if you want something from a frum perspective.