Would you rather support Netanyahu, the leader of a party that has repeatedly allowed Jews to be mechalel Shabbos and eat tarfus?

Both parties are bad. You have to pick which candidate is best for the Jews. And unlike Yiddishkeit, you are allowed to be a Salad Bar Democrat/Republican. Pick the policies and ideas you like, and discard the rest.

Call me a filthy liberal, but it is in my completely amateur opinion that the Zionists bit off more than they could chew and are currently in a lose-lose situation with the Arabs. They cannot keep the population of the West Bank under Israeli control forever. If they give them citizenship, it will be the end of Israel as a Jewish State. If they expel them all, it would be war (not to mention an absolutely abhorrent thing to do). If they keep status quo, the Palestinians will just get angrier and angrier.

If nothing else, it’s proof that Zionism was always against the Torah. There’s no way following Ratzon Hashem should lead to such a dead end outcome.

I still don’t get why people are all up in arms defending the first charge against Trump, with the Cohen being oiver on Esnan Zoinah.

Hey Mister Mysterious Mod Man, what do you think happened? I’m not going to post what most news sources say, because you’ll probably dismiss them as too liberal (and frankly, I can’t blame you). So I’ll stick with FoxNews, New York Post, and NewsMax as top what happened:

Biden’s lawyers were going through his documents and found “a small number of documents with classified markings”. Some reports numbered them as totaling ten. The documents were immediately turned over to the National Archives, and Biden consented to having the rest of his properties searched, where they found three more documents.

So yeah. 13 documents in total is a handful. Especially compared to Trump who had more than that in a single box in a single room.

@741 It is against the realm of possibility that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach.

I am basing this in the fact that there’s never any discussion about a dead person being Moshiach before 1996. The Gemaras and ma’amoros that have been brought down are all re-interpretations by Chabadskers. Multiple Gedolim, and pretty much any Rebbi I ever asked has confirmed this, that it is not part of Yiddishkeit that Moshiach has already died.

There’s a famous story ( I don’t recall who it’s about). In the Alter Heim, a Rosh Yeshiva (or Rebbe) was on a train with his Talmidim/Chassidim and the bachurim were approached by a missionary. At first they humored him, answering all of his questions easily, but he finally stumped them by asking “Your Rabbis were mistaken about Bar Kochba, who’s to say they weren’t mistaken about Yoshke?” The Rov finally approached him and said “What made the Chachamim realize that Bar Kochba wasn’t Moshiach?” “Well, he died.” “Nu?”

@sechel83 You are being intentionally misleading when you say “Chassidim”. In this thread, no one is attacking Chassidim, rather certain practices and beliefs that are exclusive to Chabad. You’re trying to hide behind the Misnaged / Chassid machlokes. (there’s a different thread where a user is attacking Chassidishkeit in general, especially the Ba’al Shem. Maybe you have the two confused?)

But yes, you are correct. Before the tzaddik Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson ZT”L went to the Oilom Ha’Emes, people criticized Chabad for making a huge fuss and telling the world that he was Moshiach (which he explicitly denied and told people to stop, and I’m sure there’s a teretz as to how to interpret that particular response). After he was no longer able to move or respond, and certainly after he was niftar, the frum view of Chabad messianism went from “silly tipshim” to “dangerously close to heresy”.

@Magdiel I know you are joking, considering the vast amount of reliance that the kashrus industry has on Chabad, but I know of Roshei Yeshivos that won’t drink wine with a Lubavitch Rav HaMachshir, and many more who would rather daven b’yechidus than in a Beis Chabad.

That being said, I hold of the tzad that if you can see that a person looks and talks like a Yiras HaShem, you can rely on them for things in times of necessity. So I’m not going to interrogate every Shaliach to see if they hang a picture of a man up on the Mizrach Vant, I’m just going to assume that they are frum.

All that aside, just because the frum oilom has major issues with Lubavitch haskofo doesn’t mean we hold of them as not frum.

Hey giant bank of computers that attempts to predict what the next words in a phrase would be!

Can you write a sentence containing exactly thirteen words that contains five words that are completely made up and cannot be found anywhere?

A Rov I know accidentally became the animal expert of the local Vaad. He regularly puts out essays on Kosher L’Pesach pet food, animals on Shabbos, and other related issues. He one time told a story about a woman who had been calling the Vaad hotline asking shaylos about her animals. After the third or fourth call, she asked him how many pets he owns, since he seems so knowledgeable. “Umm.. none”.

@Always_Ask_Questions For every ten accusations with nothing behind them, there are another twenty with mountains of evidence. Trump absolutely took home classified documents after his presidency was over, then lied about having them, then reversed his position and claimed that he de-classified them first, then refused to co-operate with the investigation. He also payed for a zoinah with campaign funds. Sure Biden did some bad stuff, like allowing Hunter to use his influence to close some deals in Slavic countries, or have a box or two of classified material in his garage, but it doesn’t even hold a candle to Trump’s wrongdoings.

Comparing Biden’s crimes to Trump’s is like comparing a guy who shoplifted a pack of gum to a guy who held up a bank.

A box or two? 

It’s two things, I think.

One is that over here, people are usually anonymous, so can speak with a certain candor you won’t find in the real world. Myself, for instance, the times I’ve brought up the Moshiach question with Lubavitchers was always uncomfortable for both of us and the discussion was quickly dropped. And I’m afraid of losing friendships and alienating people when I find out that they worship a dead man, or they find out that I hold of them as an apikores.

A second reason could be that the Messianism and Rebbe worship (yes it happens, yes it’s common, no not in the way other Chassidim respect their Rebbe) is what really pushed Lubavitch out of the rest of the frum world. So when a frum person sees a Lubavitcher, one thought is “Huh, this person could really be part of our community but there’s that huge stumbling block in the way” and it really drives the whole relationship. It’s the reason why you won’t find too many mentions of Chabad events in Yated or Hamodia, or why Chabad Rabbonim aren’t speaking at the Siyum HaShas. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room and we can’t just ignore it.

All these justifications are saying “Well the Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be dead…” (which, derech agav, isn’t even true, and has unanimously been the consensus until 1996). You may as well say “The Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be a purple monkey!” or “It’s not apikorsus to say that there are sheidim that steal my socks out of the dryer!”

@n0mesorah Are talking about the so-called “Orthoprax” people who are outwardly frum only for practical purposes? When I say keep halacha, I mean keep all of halacha. I mean, sheesh, even the most anti-Torah atheist Maskil probably still keeps some traditions, like not eating pork.

@sechel83 Again, the opposition to Chabad has nothing to do with misnagdus. The criticisms mentioned in the other thread were also echoed by notable Chassidishe Rebbes.

@sechel83 The overwhelming consensus of non-Chabad Talmidei Chachamim is that the belief that Rav Schneerson ZT”L will be the Moshiach is at best tipshus and many are adamant that it’s outright k’fira. This is the prevailing opinion of frum Jews everywhere, except Chabad. I don’t know if you realize that.

Now to clarify, believing he is Moshiach, also includes a lot of other people. Like those who say “not sure”, give evasive answers, the enablers who claim not to believe but run institutions where people put up massive Yechi banners, and those who say “well, he could have been…”.

@sechel83 Do you believe that your Rebbe, the late and last Rebbe of Lubavitch Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson ZT”L is the one and only Moshiach ben Dovid, yes or no? And how prevalent is that belief among Chabad?

@sechel83 Did you really just say that “probably only Chabad ever heard of the Zohar”? I’m sorry, you’ve had some “out there” takes on this thread, but that one probably clinches it. So before we continue, let’s enumerate:

• Litvaks don’t just learn Litvishe Torah, so they don’t have a derech. Chabad is better since they only learn Chabad Torah and ignore everything else
• No idea who Rav Shamshon Refoel Hirsch ZT”L and Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer ZT”L were
• Likutei Sichos is as important to learn as Gemara
• Lubavitchers don’t need a living leader since every possible halacha or hashkafa question can be answered from reading Chabad seforim
• All of Lubavitch believe that the last Rebbe ZT”L can be Moshiach
• Only Chabad knows what the Zohar is

I would like you to address at least some of these before continuing.

Regarding Techiyas HaMeisim, I don’t know all the details, but numerous Rebbeim of mine quoted numerous Gedolei HaDor in stating that the idea that Moshiach is a dead man who will rise again is not a Jewish concept and possibly apikorsus. This isn’t some hot take, it’s the prevailing opinion of the frum world.

@sechel83 Does all of Chabad believe that Rav Schneerson ZT”L can come back and be Moshiach or not? Because most Chabadskers would adamantly deny that Meshichists even exists and laugh at the idea that a dead person can be Moshiach. But here you seem to be saying that all of Chabad believes this?

This is not me, nor is it @AviraDeArah, nor anyone else on this thread. Numerous Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachamim that are universally respected in the frum world (except amongst some of Chabad) have repeatedly said that the RAMBAM is clear that Moshiach cannot be from the dead and that anyone who argues is guilty of kefira. This isn’t a fringe idea, this is a very prevalent idea in the non-Chabad frum world. The only question is what percentage of Chabad actively believes that a dead tzaddik may wake up and bring the geulah.

@sechel83 Because a dead person coming back to life is not derech ha’tevah. There is a machlokes if t’chiyas ha’meisim happens before or after Moshiach. There’s no source that it’s a pre-requisite since Moshiach could have been a person who died. When we don’t have a precedent nor source for something not derech ha’tevah happening, we say it cannot happen.

@n0meorah Go back to the beginning of the thread and read from there. This isn’t about love or hate. This is a discussion about practices and beliefs that are or are not part of Yiddishkeit.

@sechel83 Actually, you don’t have a rebbe. You have books that you like to learn from that are all based on a single person’s teachings. That’s a very different thing.

Frankly I find you characterizing Litvaks as “not having a clear derech” as offensive. And I don’t even have a Litvish drop of blood in me. What, because a Brisker studies other derachim outside of Rav Chaim that makes him off the derech? Would a Vizhnitzer who paskens based on Iggros Moshe be a fool?

@sechel83 I mean, you (and the rest of Chabad) do you I guess. However, based on your comments I really don’t think you are aware as to how different this sort of approach is to literally every other approach that Yidden have (or have ever had, for that matter). The whole concept of relying on something an individual wrote as your guide instead of a living breathing person. The idea that said writings are absolutely perfect and contain no mistakes. The writings which often aren’t even from that person, but second hand from someone who wrote it down. Prioritizing those writings over Gemara, Halacha, Rishonim, and other acharonim. It’s all just so different from how most Jews work (yes, even Chassidim), and I’m not sure you aware of that.

@sechel83 All this is confirming to me is that you have an extremely narrow view of Yiddishkeit to the point where you didn’t even hear of three of the greatest gedolim of the 19th and 20th century, one of which even had a connection with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. So when people are criticizing you for your views, please stop saying “Just learn Chassidus” and instead maybe go speak with a Litvishe Rosh Yeshiva or Chassidishe Rebbe to understand how the rest of the frum world sees things.

@sechel83 Regarding your points

1) You are wrong. No Yeshiva has a regular seder on the letters of Rav Baruch Ber. The closest comparison is the Brisker Yeshivos that have Gemara shiurim focused on Rav Chaim and the Griz. And that only comes after learning the Gemara and Rishonim. Most Talmidim probably never even saw something written by Rav Chaim outside of the seforim he published in his lifetime. I think some Satmar Yeshivos have regular VaYoel Moshe sedarim, but they take a backseat to Gemara and more general Chassidus. Certainly not three hours a day.

2) Again, you’re equating Chabad with the rest of Chassidus. The issues I (and others) have with Chabad are exclusive to Chabad and don’t exist in other Chassiduses. We don’t have issues with amount of respect Chabad gives to the late Rav Schneerson ZT”L. The issue is about treating literally every drop of ink he put to paper as if it were direct min HaShomayim. There is chashivus in the writings of a gadol. However, one cannot say that we don’t need a leader because we have this gadols writings. We further cannot infer and pasken halachic shaylos based on something a gadol said in a specific time and place that may (or may not) still be relevant. We certainly cannot say that said writings take on the same kedusha as a blatt Gemara or (Lo Aleinu) Torah She’Bksav. Yiddishkeit in Galus has to be dynamic and has to continuously adjust course so that we can follow Chazal’s teachings the best. For that we need living leaders to guide us.

@n0mesorah I don’t think I was clear on what I was writing. I’m talking about the main Rav Hirsch translators, which has been lead by a group of his descendants (mostly from the Breuer family) since the late 70s. These are people who have grown up learning Rav Hirsch as a family mesorah. They didn’t actually change anything (as far as I know), the biggest challenge is translating the German into modern English in a way that keeps to the original intent. However, they did choose to not publish many letters and speech transcripts for a variety of reasons. There’s no dishonesty, it’s just that things meant for a 19th century German Ba’al HaBatisch audience are not necessarily the type of Torah that resounds today.

And Rav Yaakov Yosef ZT”L may have dedicated his life to promoting his Rebbe’s teachings, but he did not advocate that everyone do the same. Nor did he have the idea that a Rebbe is no longer needed, since we have his writings and everyone can just learn from them. Yiddishkeit needs teachers. No one can learn Torah from books alone.

@n0mesorah I thought that cars on Shabbos was a thing that Conservative allowed since the early 20th century? I would think that that’s a bigger divide than mechitzas. Especially since at the time many left wing “Orthodox” American shuls didn’t have mechitzas, but no one openly drove.