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@anyPotatoKugelLeft You keep telling people “read the book, read the book”. I can also write a book using Gemaras and Rishonim to say whatever I want. Point is, that no Talmid Chacham worth his salt will approve my words.
That’s what’s happening here. Mr. Lieberman wrote a book that goes against what all Gedolim, Rabbonim, Rebbes, and Talmidei Chachamim say. I will take their word against his without even glancing at what he has to say.
And that, my friend, is the final word on the subject.
@anyPotatoKugelLeft Find me one, ONE respected non-Chabad Rov from the last 50 years who says that the idea that Moshiach can be a resurrected person is acceptable in Yiddishkeit.
sigh Mods, my intention was not to say that every letter written by a certain Gadol B’Yisroel is inane, rather that people study every word he wrote as equal to Chazal, whether it’s Torah or a simple Mazal Tov postcard.
I understand, but emotions run high and the way it was worded begged extra sensitivity. I appreciate your understanding.
@sechel83 And we are all waiting for anyone to find a non-Chabad Rav who says that the Meshichist way of belief has legitimacy. someone?
@sechel83 No, you’re wrong. The things that people are against Chabad for don’t exist in any other Chassidus and never did. A dead Rebbe becoming Moshiach, ignoring all Torah written after the 20th century to focus on a Rebbe’s edit letters and speeches, claiming that a dead person sees everything happening in the world and directly answers teffilos, etc.
No matter what excuses you make, seforim you bring down, or explanations you give, these (and others) are things exclusive to Chabad and it’s for these reasons that people are opposed to Chabad.
So nu? Go to day camps. Summer camps these days fulfill a very different need than they used to. One that many would argue is contrived. It’s a special opportunity and shouldn’t be seen as a necessity that has to happen every year from age 9 through 18.
Dear Esteemed Bicephalus President of the Galaxy His Honourable Zaphod Beeblebrox,
I think the “zero common ground” argument is a little like this. There have been several decades of Chabad Rabbis developing a philosophy and movement that the rest of the frum world is extremely opposed to. Chabadskers who follow those Rabbis by definition will ignore any Torah or Hashkafa from the rest of the frum world that doesn’t suit them.
So there’s no common ground, as any argument will be “The Rabbonim say that this is how to interpret the Gemara” with the response being “But my Rabbonim disagree”. It’s the same with Conservative and Open Orthodoxy. If you choose to follow a Rabbi that plays loosey goosey with the words of Chazal and ignores everyone telling him “No”, you can’t even begin a debate.
@MenachemShmei I would argue that Ami should be assur to read during the week too…
@anyPotatoKugelLeft You don’t get it. None of you Yellow Flaggers do. You can bring me alleged rayos from here to Timbuktu, it doesn’t matter. Because Talmidei Chachamim and Klal Yisroels leaders have all weighed in on this topic and know far more than some guy who wrote a book. And the unanimous view is that no, Moshiach cannot be mim ha’meisim. The only (and I stress only) dissenters on this topic are some Chabad Rabbis (but certainly not all Chabad Rabbonim) and they only started saying this after 1996.
So keep your Da’as Yochid beliefs and fringe opinions. I’ll stick with what the greatest Gedolim say that the Torah says.
The final word is this:
A subset of Chabad Rabbonim are the only talmidei chachamim alive today who say that it’s possible for Moshiach to be a resurrected dead person. Literally every other frum Rov and Talmid Chacham says it’s not possible, and many say that it’s apikorsus to say so.
So that’s the final word. If you’re a follower of one of those Chabad Rabbis, gezunteh heit. Go and believe whatever you want to believe. But have in mind that the entire rest of the frum world looks at you like we look at Conservative Jews: Heart in the right place, but believes in things outside of Yiddishkeit.
There’s a frum community that had a direct hand in getting Hillary Clinton in power in a tit-for-tat trade when President Clinton was lame ducking. The oilom, by and large, called it a massive chillul Hashem, but I know of at least one major Jewish publication that held the opposite, and called it a kiddush Hashem. From their point of view, it doesn’t matter what policies Democrats hold of, as long as they can help Jews.
Would you rather support Netanyahu, the leader of a party that has repeatedly allowed Jews to be mechalel Shabbos and eat tarfus?
Both parties are bad. You have to pick which candidate is best for the Jews. And unlike Yiddishkeit, you are allowed to be a Salad Bar Democrat/Republican. Pick the policies and ideas you like, and discard the rest.
@sechel83 The Meshichisters created a l’mafreya concept of Moshiach from the dead, claiming it’s always existed. At no point in (literally hundreds) of false Moshiachs and Moshiach cults that we have spawned in the last 2000+ years, has anyone announced a Moshiach who was dead. Until 1996.
@vdnrtakh1 AdirBMelucha. I disagree with points one and two. Most frum Jews are reluctant to allow their children to marry someone from a different background. Shtarkeh Chassidim won’t marry Litvaks, many Sephardim won’t marry Ashkenazim, a Yeshivhishe family won’t marry into a Vizhnitzer family. Especially Chabad which expects a certain lifestyle of shlichus and other practices that a non-Chabad family may not want. As for beards, it’s a Chassidishe thing. The issur of shaving also includes scissoring away the entire beard.Call me a filthy liberal, but it is in my completely amateur opinion that the Zionists bit off more than they could chew and are currently in a lose-lose situation with the Arabs. They cannot keep the population of the West Bank under Israeli control forever. If they give them citizenship, it will be the end of Israel as a Jewish State. If they expel them all, it would be war (not to mention an absolutely abhorrent thing to do). If they keep status quo, the Palestinians will just get angrier and angrier.
If nothing else, it’s proof that Zionism was always against the Torah. There’s no way following Ratzon Hashem should lead to such a dead end outcome.
@Always_Ask_Questions What gets me is the hypocrisy of it. Everything Hunter Biden is being accused of, Trump has done ten times over (used political influence to help a family member close a deal, shady money, election fraud, etc.). Everyone screaming to arrest Hunter should be shouting just as loud to arrest Trump.
I still don’t get why people are all up in arms defending the first charge against Trump, with the Cohen being oiver on Esnan Zoinah.
Dear Yechi HaMelech @chochom,
If you’re going to accept Likutei Sichos as an important basis of your Yiddishkeit, than surely you accept the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s repeated statements that he’s no Moshiach and begging the messianics to stop their activities as true too, no? So then by that logic, it’s impossible for the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach.
Hey Mister Mysterious Mod Man, what do you think happened? I’m not going to post what most news sources say, because you’ll probably dismiss them as too liberal (and frankly, I can’t blame you). So I’ll stick with FoxNews, New York Post, and NewsMax as top what happened:
Biden’s lawyers were going through his documents and found “a small number of documents with classified markings”. Some reports numbered them as totaling ten. The documents were immediately turned over to the National Archives, and Biden consented to having the rest of his properties searched, where they found three more documents.
So yeah. 13 documents in total is a handful. Especially compared to Trump who had more than that in a single box in a single room.
@RSo I know there’s a ton of criticism against him, and many Litvishe Rabbonim blamed him for the decline of much of Chabad into a bizarre messainic cult while he was alive and well, but I can’t say I’ve heard anyone say he wasn’t a Tzaddik.
One example: A very very Chareidi Rebbi I knew was giving his requisite “College is terrible” speech, and used as an example “Only three gedolim ever went to college, one started a apikorsus institution, ones followers became a weird Moshiach movement, and only one was OK”. (He was referring to Rav JB Soleveitchik, Rav MM Schneerson, and Rav Yitzchok Hutner). As a Yekke, I asked why he excluded Rav Breuer, and he said that he wasn’t really on the same level (not sure if he meant in terms of gadlus or influence).
@741 It is against the realm of possibility that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach.
I am basing this in the fact that there’s never any discussion about a dead person being Moshiach before 1996. The Gemaras and ma’amoros that have been brought down are all re-interpretations by Chabadskers. Multiple Gedolim, and pretty much any Rebbi I ever asked has confirmed this, that it is not part of Yiddishkeit that Moshiach has already died.
There’s a famous story ( I don’t recall who it’s about). In the Alter Heim, a Rosh Yeshiva (or Rebbe) was on a train with his Talmidim/Chassidim and the bachurim were approached by a missionary. At first they humored him, answering all of his questions easily, but he finally stumped them by asking “Your Rabbis were mistaken about Bar Kochba, who’s to say they weren’t mistaken about Yoshke?” The Rov finally approached him and said “What made the Chachamim realize that Bar Kochba wasn’t Moshiach?” “Well, he died.” “Nu?”
@OrthodoxRabbi1995 No talmid chacham or Rov that I know says that the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L wasn’t a tzaddik. But I don’t want you to get the wrong impression. He was a Tzaddik and possibly one of the Gedolei HaDor, but there were many greater tzaddikim that preceded him, and he was one of many tzaddikim in his time.
@sechel83 You are being intentionally misleading when you say “Chassidim”. In this thread, no one is attacking Chassidim, rather certain practices and beliefs that are exclusive to Chabad. You’re trying to hide behind the Misnaged / Chassid machlokes. (there’s a different thread where a user is attacking Chassidishkeit in general, especially the Ba’al Shem. Maybe you have the two confused?)
But yes, you are correct. Before the tzaddik Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson ZT”L went to the Oilom Ha’Emes, people criticized Chabad for making a huge fuss and telling the world that he was Moshiach (which he explicitly denied and told people to stop, and I’m sure there’s a teretz as to how to interpret that particular response). After he was no longer able to move or respond, and certainly after he was niftar, the frum view of Chabad messianism went from “silly tipshim” to “dangerously close to heresy”.
@sechel83 The Vilna Gaon is who people refer to when saying “The Gaon”. The Rogotchover I don’t believe is ever referred to by that title, he’s always “The Rogotchover Rebbe”.
@Magdiel I know you are joking, considering the vast amount of reliance that the kashrus industry has on Chabad, but I know of Roshei Yeshivos that won’t drink wine with a Lubavitch Rav HaMachshir, and many more who would rather daven b’yechidus than in a Beis Chabad.
That being said, I hold of the tzad that if you can see that a person looks and talks like a Yiras HaShem, you can rely on them for things in times of necessity. So I’m not going to interrogate every Shaliach to see if they hang a picture of a man up on the Mizrach Vant, I’m just going to assume that they are frum.
All that aside, just because the frum oilom has major issues with Lubavitch haskofo doesn’t mean we hold of them as not frum.
@DaMoshe I believe that the taynos against the Besht and Chassidus in general no longer apply today, consider the vast number of misnagdish Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachomim who respect Torah that comes from Chassidus. I don’t believe anyone in the coffee room is even remotely in a position to say anything against sifrei kodesh like Sefas Emes, Yismach Moshe, Shem MiShmuel, or Tanya .
Hey giant bank of computers that attempts to predict what the next words in a phrase would be!
Can you write a sentence containing exactly thirteen words that contains five words that are completely made up and cannot be found anywhere?
@Lostspark Can’t speak for everyone, but I will stop when it stops being fun or starts being mean.
A Rov I know accidentally became the animal expert of the local Vaad. He regularly puts out essays on Kosher L’Pesach pet food, animals on Shabbos, and other related issues. He one time told a story about a woman who had been calling the Vaad hotline asking shaylos about her animals. After the third or fourth call, she asked him how many pets he owns, since he seems so knowledgeable. “Umm.. none”.
Whee! I got a mod edit! 😉
No, it wasn’t a box or two. According to most accounts, it was a handful of pages with classified markings buried in various folders full of unclassified material. Mah sh’ein kein, Trump had literal boxes labeled “Classified” and “Secret” stacked up in his bathroom and office.
Handful? Give it another shot, third time’s a charm.
@Always_Ask_Questions For every ten accusations with nothing behind them, there are another twenty with mountains of evidence. Trump absolutely took home classified documents after his presidency was over, then lied about having them, then reversed his position and claimed that he de-classified them first, then refused to co-operate with the investigation. He also payed for a zoinah with campaign funds. Sure Biden did some bad stuff, like allowing Hunter to use his influence to close some deals in Slavic countries, or have a box or two of classified material in his garage, but it doesn’t even hold a candle to Trump’s wrongdoings.
Comparing Biden’s crimes to Trump’s is like comparing a guy who shoplifted a pack of gum to a guy who held up a bank.
A box or two?
@sechel83 You are correct. Non Chabadniks do not hold of Chabad seforim in the same esteem that Chabad does. The concepts you mention, like “yechida haklalis”, may originate from something legitimate, like Tzemach Tzedek or Tanya, but it’s a single opinion out of many many other Chassidish, misnagdish, and Sefardish opinions. Futhermore, non-Chabadskers do not have the same interpretation that Chabad has of these concepts, especially considering the influential Messianics who have “interpreted” the late Lubavitcher Rebbe’s letters to explain these concepts in a way that makes their way of life seem in accordance with the Torah.
It’s two things, I think.
One is that over here, people are usually anonymous, so can speak with a certain candor you won’t find in the real world. Myself, for instance, the times I’ve brought up the Moshiach question with Lubavitchers was always uncomfortable for both of us and the discussion was quickly dropped. And I’m afraid of losing friendships and alienating people when I find out that they worship a dead man, or they find out that I hold of them as an apikores.
A second reason could be that the Messianism and Rebbe worship (yes it happens, yes it’s common, no not in the way other Chassidim respect their Rebbe) is what really pushed Lubavitch out of the rest of the frum world. So when a frum person sees a Lubavitcher, one thought is “Huh, this person could really be part of our community but there’s that huge stumbling block in the way” and it really drives the whole relationship. It’s the reason why you won’t find too many mentions of Chabad events in Yated or Hamodia, or why Chabad Rabbonim aren’t speaking at the Siyum HaShas. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room and we can’t just ignore it.
@yechiell The problem is that the more lies he says, the more his supporters love him. They will reject reality in favor of whatever Trump is posting to Truth Social and claim that he’s the only one not in the swamp, or whatever.
All these justifications are saying “Well the Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be dead…” (which, derech agav, isn’t even true, and has unanimously been the consensus until 1996). You may as well say “The Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be a purple monkey!” or “It’s not apikorsus to say that there are sheidim that steal my socks out of the dryer!”
@lakewhut You’re right. There are very few Kara’im around these days and they don’t prostelize. No yid, whether they are frum or not yet, will confuse a Kara’i with a legitimate Torah true Jew and think that they represent frum Jews.
@n0mesorah Are talking about the so-called “Orthoprax” people who are outwardly frum only for practical purposes? When I say keep halacha, I mean keep all of halacha. I mean, sheesh, even the most anti-Torah atheist Maskil probably still keeps some traditions, like not eating pork.
@sechel83 Again, the opposition to Chabad has nothing to do with misnagdus. The criticisms mentioned in the other thread were also echoed by notable Chassidishe Rebbes.@sechel83 Also, I don’t know what you think “the neshama of yechida haklolis” means, but I can guarantee you that you (and others from Chabad) have a very different interpretation of it than Chassidim and other frum Jews.
I mean, like I said before. You do you. However, you should be aware as to how strange and abnormal many of your beliefs and practices are to frum Yidden who are not part of Chabad. And again, there are beliefs that are acceptable in Chabad circles that most frum (even Chassidish) places would throw the individual out on their head for expressing.
@sechel83 The overwhelming consensus of non-Chabad Talmidei Chachamim is that the belief that Rav Schneerson ZT”L will be the Moshiach is at best tipshus and many are adamant that it’s outright k’fira. This is the prevailing opinion of frum Jews everywhere, except Chabad. I don’t know if you realize that.
Now to clarify, believing he is Moshiach, also includes a lot of other people. Like those who say “not sure”, give evasive answers, the enablers who claim not to believe but run institutions where people put up massive Yechi banners, and those who say “well, he could have been…”.
I can tell you what not to do. Day trading hasn’t been profitable since the 00’s. Computer algorithms do so many trades so fast, they put an end to any logical trades for short termed gains. From what I hear, app gigs (Uber, Lyft, Door Dash, etc.) require so much time to be profitable, it’s essentially a full time job.
Absolutely do not fall for any sales job that requires you to put in money upfront (Ambit Energy, Amway, Primerica). These are multi-level marketing companies (MLM for short). They are essentially scams that make money on sellers being forced to pay fees for the products that they are selling and prey on people who are looking for a side hustle. Unfortunately, may kollel yungerlite and their rebbetzins get caught up in it.
If I can make a suggestion, spend time to learn a trade that can be done at home. Coding/programming is good, along with database management. There are always places looking to contract a part time coder to help with their app or something.
@sechel83 Do you believe that your Rebbe, the late and last Rebbe of Lubavitch Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson ZT”L is the one and only Moshiach ben Dovid, yes or no? And how prevalent is that belief among Chabad?
The liberals are very upset that so much focus is put on the Titan accident rather than the refugee boat that capsized in the Mediterranean. I hate to say it, but I kind of agree. What can we learn from a boat full of poor and desperate people trying to get to a better life sinking and drowning?
@sechel83 Did you really just say that “probably only Chabad ever heard of the Zohar”? I’m sorry, you’ve had some “out there” takes on this thread, but that one probably clinches it. So before we continue, let’s enumerate:
- Litvaks don’t just learn Litvishe Torah, so they don’t have a derech. Chabad is better since they only learn Chabad Torah and ignore everything else
- No idea who Rav Shamshon Refoel Hirsch ZT”L and Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer ZT”L were
- Likutei Sichos is as important to learn as Gemara
- Lubavitchers don’t need a living leader since every possible halacha or hashkafa question can be answered from reading Chabad seforim
- All of Lubavitch believe that the last Rebbe ZT”L can be Moshiach
- Only Chabad knows what the Zohar is
I would like you to address at least some of these before continuing.
Regarding Techiyas HaMeisim, I don’t know all the details, but numerous Rebbeim of mine quoted numerous Gedolei HaDor in stating that the idea that Moshiach is a dead man who will rise again is not a Jewish concept and possibly apikorsus. This isn’t some hot take, it’s the prevailing opinion of the frum world.
And then there’s Chassidish. That also means different things to different people. Mainly it’s about following the BESHT, or following a Rebbe who himself tries to follow the BESHT.
@sechel83 Does all of Chabad believe that Rav Schneerson ZT”L can come back and be Moshiach or not? Because most Chabadskers would adamantly deny that Meshichists even exists and laugh at the idea that a dead person can be Moshiach. But here you seem to be saying that all of Chabad believes this?
This is not me, nor is it @AviraDeArah, nor anyone else on this thread. Numerous Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachamim that are universally respected in the frum world (except amongst some of Chabad) have repeatedly said that the RAMBAM is clear that Moshiach cannot be from the dead and that anyone who argues is guilty of kefira. This isn’t a fringe idea, this is a very prevalent idea in the non-Chabad frum world. The only question is what percentage of Chabad actively believes that a dead tzaddik may wake up and bring the geulah.
@n0mesorah Eh, you’re splitting hairs a bit with halacha and frum. No one is keeping halacha for the fun of it, they do so because they are frum. And anyone who is not frum hashkafically, but still keeping halacha, will still be violating some halachas because they have their own interpretation of what Hashem wants and it probably will not shtim with how a frum person would do things.
@sechel83 Because a dead person coming back to life is not derech ha’tevah. There is a machlokes if t’chiyas ha’meisim happens before or after Moshiach. There’s no source that it’s a pre-requisite since Moshiach could have been a person who died. When we don’t have a precedent nor source for something not derech ha’tevah happening, we say it cannot happen.
@SACT5 Like
@n0meorah Go back to the beginning of the thread and read from there. This isn’t about love or hate. This is a discussion about practices and beliefs that are or are not part of Yiddishkeit.
@Catlover613 No one is failing on being Dan Lekaf Zechus, nor are we posting Lashon Hara. The conversation (and all 4234876 conversations preceding it) is going something like this:
“The Chabad belief/practice of X is not part of Yiddishkeit and most Rabbonim find it problematic” at which point a Chabasker responds “Well, we believe/do X and it’s perfectly fine because Chabad believes/does X”
If it’s something bad, they would deny it. But they don’t, they just try and justify it. That’s all.
@sechel83 Actually, you don’t have a rebbe. You have books that you like to learn from that are all based on a single person’s teachings. That’s a very different thing.
Frankly I find you characterizing Litvaks as “not having a clear derech” as offensive. And I don’t even have a Litvish drop of blood in me. What, because a Brisker studies other derachim outside of Rav Chaim that makes him off the derech? Would a Vizhnitzer who paskens based on Iggros Moshe be a fool?